Liz Cheney vs. Norah O’Donnell: “The tactics are not torture”
posted at 2:45 pm on April 26, 2009 by Allahpundit
A few days old but we’ve had a steady stream of requests for it. Hotline has the transcript; don’t quit before the end or you’ll miss her thoughts on Palin and Meghan McCain. Speaking of McCains, Maverick may differ with Cheney about whether waterboarding constitutes torture but they agree that a “truth commission” would be a very bad idea. A good question: “[Enhanded interrogation] was bad advice. But if you criminalize bad advice on the part of lawyers, how are you going to get people to serve, and what sort of precedent does that set for the future?”
Actually, here’s a better question: If we all know it’s going to happen anyway in certain circumstances, why not legalize it? Kathleen Parker, unsurprisingly, doesn’t get it:
In his book “Shouting Fire: Civil Liberties in a Turbulent Age,” Dershowitz proposes that since torture is a given under those certain circumstances, then “torture warrants” should be issued by a judge.
He is right that most of us would do whatever necessary to save our child, possibly even torture a kidnapper. Likewise, if we stumbled upon someone trying to harm a loved one, we would kill the attacker if necessary to stop him.
But those are both darkly impassioned environments. It is by the cool light of day that we devise our laws. And it is by that same light that we judge our actions.
The law would protect you if you had to kill an attacker to stop him from killing, which is to say, it’s those “darkly impassioned environments” that law is most concerned with. Why leave a CIA agent in legal limbo if, however likely or unlikely it may be, he finds himself with a detainee in a ticking-bomb scenario?
Do yourself a favor after you watch the clip. Go listen to the archived audio here. Three minutes.
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You’re right that these people Don’t Get It. Kathleen Parker says, for instance, that torture is a violation of what we stand for. What we stand for is civilization. But civilization isn’t a choice like tea vs. coffee; civilization is a sanctuary in a wilderness of barbarianism, a sanctuary that exists only because someone has cleared it, and continues only because someone continues to hold the borders against attack. If we are able to avoid barbaric behavior in the civilized world, it is because we hold the barbarians at bay at those borders. And that means that we must fight at least as effectively as they do. That we can kill without personalized cruelty better than the barbarians can allows us to avoid that personalized cruelty most of the time, but if we shrink from it when it is needed, the barbarians will choose that kind of war simply because we refuse to fight it–and they will win. And there will be no civilization. And it will not come back for a long time, and at great cost to the very many who should have been nurtured by it. And where will Ms. Parker be then?
Ms. Parker, tell me, how would you fight back against an army of thousands of children armed with AK-47s, taught to kill, bullied to kill and bullied to train them as heartless bullies? Do you think you could capture their hearts and stop them? I wouldn’t let you try; it would be letting you commit suicide. They will have to be contained and either killed or allowed to kill each other. To the people who train them most certainly apply the words of Jesus: that the man who leads them astry would be better off in the sea with a great millstone around his neck. But these mass-murdering children, this self-perpetuating, kidnapping army must be dealt with. And if you can’t see this, then you are not prepared to protect, preserve, and defend civilization.
njcommuter on April 26, 2009 at 4:01 PM
No, it’s not reaching … that’s your way of avoiding the question.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:01 PM
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:01 PM
It’s reaching because abortion is legal and torture is not.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Well stated, someone else ‘gets it’.
thomasaur on April 26, 2009 at 4:04 PM
What a diff. in Liz Cheney And Meghan McCain.And John McCain stills wonders why he lost.
thmcbb on April 26, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Liz did what all Republicans should do – challenge the premise that harsh interrogation techniques are torture.
It seems to me we have already lost the argument when we don’t challenge the media and the Democrats’s claim that the Bush Administration committed torture.
huckleberryfriend on April 26, 2009 at 4:05 PM
I didn’t ask you that. I asked whether you thought the process involved to kill a baby would be considered torture, and whether you’re more sympathetic to Islamists or babies.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM
Wrong again, darwin. Maybe you need a new lie.
DOJ May 30 2005:
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM
I’m in favor of doing whatever it takes to get the information from the bad guys to save the good guys. But I had to do a double take on the line “…criminalize bad advice on the part of lawyers” I’m thinking I really really like that idea. Has a nice ring to it, I think. I might become an Obama fan if you pulls that one off.
MikeA on April 26, 2009 at 4:08 PM
You are dealing with a person, who, the other day said to one poster on here that because they supported torture they would not see God.
Yet, getalife can support the ripping apart of a child in the womb and God is cool with that.
It’s not torture. If it were, SERE’s would not have been allowed to do to our troops what we have done to AQ.
RobertInLexington on April 26, 2009 at 4:10 PM
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM
Your argument that abortion is torture so torture is okay is silly.
Abortion is a legal choice and torture is an illegal act.
It’s reaching and a silly argument.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:11 PM
Let the Lefty wimps continue this illogical line of reasoning. Obama’s numbers are starting to crumble. From Rasmussen…
54% is his lowest yet, and that 45% disapproval is WAY up.
SouthernGent on April 26, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Remember, the Left also hated the evil CIA for decades. Leftist Phillip Agee and his pals outed hundreds of CIA agents, some of whom were killed as a result. They were all treated by the Left as heroes.
But when they thought the evil Bush had outed a CIA agent whose husband had been caught lying thru his teeth, suddenly the CIA was “good”.
You can’t make stuff like that up.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Your point? After Obamas released the memos … the Islamists know the same thing.
Maybe you and getalife should get together and get one … a life that is.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:12 PM
So, it’s not torture IF you know it’s only a part of training. The very same things are being done to you, yet, because you know that it is just training then it isn’t torture regardless of the amount of pain or fear you feel.
RobertInLexington on April 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM
It’s not an argument. I asked you questions which you are going out of your way not to answer.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Norah O’Donnell is really an incredibly naive fool if she believes that terrorists are taking their cues about how to treat captured Americans from the way the U.S. treats its own captives.
Terrorist: “Hey American soldier, I was going to chop off your head with this rusty saw and post the video on YouTube, but then I read on the internet that the U.S. has disavowed torture, so now I won’t. I’ll give you a cupcake and a bouquet of flowers instead.”
A mind is a terrible thing to waste, Norah. If you actually have one behind that pretty face for which you were hired, please try to educate it.
AZCoyote on April 26, 2009 at 4:15 PM
Exactly right. As I remember, even the “gas chamber” was distinctly torture.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:16 PM
Liz Cheney vs. Norah O’Donnell
Reason vs. Expendable American Lives
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Lets stay on topic and not get into an abortion argument.
It’s legal and that will not change.
Torture is illegal and that will not change.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:18 PM
My point is that you’re full of sh*t, as usual.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:19 PM
No laws back up what you say
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:19 PM
Yeah, but you don’t determine what’s “torture” nor what’s “illegal”. Moonbat arrogance.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:19 PM
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:19 PM
BS.
Liar.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:20 PM
Man, a college education is really wasted on morons like you.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:21 PM
I think it’s against the law for sisters to marry each other.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:21 PM
I am on topic. I want to know what in your mind can constitute torture. Fairly simple, straight forward questions.
You refuse to answer. That should get you banned because for the most part you’re just here to disprupt, and if you can’t engage in a valid discussion then there’s really no reason to keep you around.
Answer the questions or leave.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:21 PM
How is that banning of yours going.
the_nile on April 26, 2009 at 4:21 PM
What these dumbass liberals don’t understand is, they’re on the USS Titanic too.
artist on April 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Well, the both of you have yet to tell me how illegal, asymmetrical, un-uniformed, non-state actor combatants have legal protections.
They simply do not.
Stop supporting the enemy.
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Bravo, Allahpundit. Encore!
[MSNBC]
Widely approved. Everyone signed on.
There was no disagreement.
Regardless, shrill Norah RANTS thrice unsuccessfully to make VP Cheney a target at the expense of the guest. What an asshat, posing and answering her own agenda points WITHOUT EVER PERMITTING A THOROUGH RESPONSE from Liz Cheney.
Clinton: 100% of the people agree to the 3-day ticking time bomb imminent danger scenario excusing torture (beating/poison) of a known terrorist. You’d have a hard time finding someone who would argue with you on that. IF YOU KNEW… “I’d like to see the world stand up and say that they’d like to see that person who got the information for you to go to jail. I don’t think you’d have to worry about that.”
maverick muse on April 26, 2009 at 4:23 PM
where does liz cheney live? does she live in Virginia? why can’t she run for US Senator? both of ours are libs.
kelley in virginia on April 26, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Tell me how.
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Stop supporting the enemy.
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Why do you differentiate them from our (America’s) enemies.
One in the same, one from without, one from within.
They think this stuff is a joke.
They better hope this country doesn’t spiral out of control, they will be the first victims.
And it’s not looking good.
artist on April 26, 2009 at 4:24 PM
I say we treat the master minds of 9-11 and other similar future actors in man made disasters the way an abortionist treats a fetus… Put them in a warm, nurturing place, one that seems very safe, and then rip them apart one chunk at a time…
-
Water bording is not torture, but these monsters should have been.
-
RalphyBoy on April 26, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Cheney’s point is well taken when she points out that we use this technique on our own military as training.
We do not torture our own people.
So the argument that waterboarding is torture is made moot since it is a training technique. When ever it is brought up by the libs, it needs to be slapped down as enhanced interrogation.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Liz Cheney ’12!
Smarts must really run in the Cheney family.
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Don’t bother, to the left, just like Hate speech laws, its the intent, not the action that is important. Yelling at an enemy is now Torture, yelling at your kids is OK, and if your a DI in boot camp, yelling is your DUTY.
Because, we all know that are Psychic, and can tell what motivations truly are….
As to the Abortion question…
Getaclue, as usual… is wrong. You say that waterboarding is torture, and that torture is illegal… problem is that it is a debateable legal point.
You are making a LEGAL decision, and calling it true, when the whole debate is on what the law says.
Legality does not make somthing wrong, or right, but you are making MORAL, not legal, points… and then basing a legal decision on it…
“America does not torture” depends on the legal definition of the ACT of torture, and what torture is, and that definition is WAY different than the definition of the Guys who wrote the Constitution.
And, as I pointed out earlier, ACTS that are considered “Torture” under the current policy we do to ourselves LEGALY all the dang time…
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Heh
Grow Fins always disappears when I ask him!
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:28 PM
I’d say it’s much like the Pelosi argument that she never said, saw, or knew it.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:28 PM
Good point.
Getawife
Grow Fins
I ask again:
How do illegal, asymmetrical, un-uniformed, non-state actor combatants have legal protections?
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:28 PM
Navy too.
I will support the troops.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Answer: they do not.
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Torture fans, the reason the debate over waterboarding is so contentious is that torture is illegal under both US and international law. Which is why Bybee was forced to do rhetorical backflips trying to devise post-facto justifications for Bush era illegality.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM
All the trolls dissappear when someone actually asks them a serious question.
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM
I should remind our friends on the Left that no international legal authorities have ever ruled on the legality or non-legality of the methods the Bush Administration used.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:29 PM
And the law should take into consideration darkly impassioned environments… This borders on suggesting there be no protection for those that use force as self-defense simply because such a scenario would be one of passion…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM
Then should we stop waterboarding our own people for training?
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM
What about the US Coast Guard? I’m still waiting.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM
LOL…. yes… thats the ANSWER!
We are no longer interrogating, but if you don’t talk, we will give you a VERY LATE Term Abortion… because you know… Abortion is legal and everything…
Yep… take em… stick a needle in their head, and suck the brains right out if you don’t cooperate…
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM
No matter how many times liberals chants their slogans, that doesn’t make them true.
No matter how loudly liberals chants their slogans, that doesn’t make them true.
No matter how vulgar liberals get when they chants their slogans, that doesn’t make them true.
No matter how emotional liberals get when they chants their slogans, that doesn’t make them true.
Liberal hate. No room for debate.
Loxodonta on April 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Grow Fins
how do illegal, asymmetrical, un-uniformed, non-state actor combatants have legal protections?
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Then why do they use waterboarding to train our military?
Do we torture our military?
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Keep sticking your fingers in your ears.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Bybee should man up and resign from being a judge to get things started.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Any idea how many Democrat leaders signed off on the “torture” idea in the wake of 9/11? Bring on the trials.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Losing your head to a basket is a bad enough DEATH. But getting it sawed off is TORTURE! Obama, Norah and neo-liberal authoritarians have no Constitutional authority to deliver us up to Jihadists or any fascists including those permeating our own government.
maverick muse on April 26, 2009 at 4:34 PM
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Not the Coast Guard yet.
Support the troops.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:34 PM
If no one is going to ban getalife for his stupidity, can we at least ban him for being a drama queen about his self-banning and coming back the next day?
Speedwagon82 on April 26, 2009 at 4:35 PM
+1
maverick muse on April 26, 2009 at 4:35 PM
Good question. Because even the people who developed the SERE program call it torture.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Uh, why? at the time he wrote his LEGAL opinion, the law was not clear. He was asked his LEGAL opinion, not his PERSONAL opinion…. you know… LAW, the written word? Enacted by Congress?
Please find me, in US LAW, the definition of Torture? Heck, find me the definition of “Cruel and Unusual”… especialy as it has evolved over the last 200 years.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
We are neo-liberals…
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
You should man up and either answer my questions or leave.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
By your logic a child should be legally allowed to drink alcohol.
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 4:37 PM
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Torture is not legal.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:37 PM
I believe he’s a she and she does provide ample entertainment… She’s worth her welfare check.
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:37 PM
And you should just STFU with your asinine demands.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
kelley in virginia on April 26, 2009 at 4:23 PM
She certainly is a highly informed, very effective and most impressive speaker.
maverick muse on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
how do illegal, asymmetrical, un-uniformed, non state actor combatants have legal protection?
they do not.
explain otherwise.
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
Hmmm, Republican Admin uses waterboarding to keep Americans safe less than one year after 9/11. Bad
Democrat Admin blows off heads of 3 black Muslim college age pirates. Good.
You political hypocrites make me sick!!!
misterspork on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
I think the santity of life should be American’s number one value. Whatever saves lives. If waterboarding a terrorist saves lives then I’m for it.
terryannonline on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
Thanks for admitting that it’s not torture, then. After all, the US Coast Guard Academy is the most difficult of all the service academies to gain admission to.
If all those smart people say it’s not torture, I agree with them.
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
You do realize that the military is made up of a couple of MILLION people? And they all can have their OWN opinions on subjects?
I’m sure with a bit of digging we could find Military documents which both corroborate, and contradict, this “memo”.
But of couse, as with the just released documents… they really only want one side of the story told, thus the “selective” use of documents.
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
how do illegal, un-uniformed, asymmetrical non state actor combatants have legal protections?
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Once again, PROOF? in US LAW? and a LEGAL DEFINITION of torture?
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:39 PM
aw
no answer
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Well, 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians undermine that argument a bit, doncha think? But I guess they’re not the kind of life you’re thinking of, right?
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Why? And let you morons get away with your bullshyt?
By the way, you never answered my question either.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:41 PM
blatantblue on April 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM
Support the troops.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:42 PM
Liz would have my vote for anything she ran for. It would be great to have her as the voice of the Republican party to go on TV and take on the left. I only wish we had Dick Cheney for president (an adult in charge) to kick some Democrat a–! We take a verbal beating every day and no one with the cajones to come back at them. I take it back – there have been a few lately, but not nearly enough.
silvernana on April 26, 2009 at 4:42 PM
How many? Which “famous” study is that from? Feel free to change your number as you go.
darwin on April 26, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:43 PM
What happened to all your religious posturing? You know as much about Christianity as you know about the military: nothing on either subject.
And how is it, exactly, that you or your sort will compel either action?
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 4:43 PM
We live in the non-United States of America. One faction believes in morality and responsibility, while the other side rants about entitlement and ideology over reality. Liberals actually reside in a padded bubble of judgmental loathing for their counterparts.
Torture is knowing my fellow Americans would rather sit on their haughty, holier-than-though haunches yakking about some fantasy utopia that will never come to pass, rather than take bold action to save our lives and our society.
Ris4victory on April 26, 2009 at 4:44 PM
Got a credible, non-Lancet claim for your 100,000 civilian figure?
Del Dolemonte on April 26, 2009 at 4:45 PM
This is not torture and even liars like getalife know it isn’t. This is what happens when the children are in charge. For years people like Pelosi hid under their bed waiting for the big bad Republicans to make us safe, now that they think we just might be safe…they scuttle out of hiding, puff up like toads and start yammering about torture. Never mind stopping attacks and worrying about terrorists, we have important things like witch hunts to think about.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 4:45 PM
“so that America can be a beacon for the rest of the world”
Holy Crap!!! Monkeys are flying out of my butt and fairys are spreadin pixie dust on my lawn.
I would say that Liz gave her a pretty good smack down but, she will not stop spreading the lies she spouted in this, so called, interview.
oakpack on April 26, 2009 at 4:45 PM
You lose cons.
Move to a country that tortures.
America, love it or leave it.
Get out.
getalife on April 26, 2009 at 4:45 PM
The Iraqi government. Exact numbers are tough to find because the sanctity of life only extends so far, apparently.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Ms Cheney was excellent, she made her points and didn’t allow poor wailing Nora to spew too much of her anguish and spin.
All this chest beating and sobbing about “moral authority” is easy when people apparently think the risk is over. Anyone else wonder what will be said about enhanced interrogations if we have another attack on American soil and the public finds out some terrorist in captivity had knowledge which could have prevented it? Will we be back to complaining about how incompetent the intelligence community is?
katiejane on April 26, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Grow Fins
That’s just an opinion, but it doesn’t answer the question why we use this techniques on our military.
The debate may rage on about whether or not it produced any valuable results, but one thing is clear.
Obama released only part of the results. Cheney cited specific results yet to be declassified. To which the Obama has yet to release. What’s the delay? If transparency is so important and the truth is our there, why not release them all?
I believe there is real evidence that this technique worked and they, the obama, is trying to make this a distraction away form the larger answer.
It’s saved American lives.
Kini on April 26, 2009 at 4:46 PM
He didn’t exactly fight back through much of his time as VP. Yes, perhaps they wanted to stay above the fray, but in the end this probably hurt their image more.
Upstater85 on April 26, 2009 at 4:46 PM
So if “torture” were legal then it would be okay?
baldilocks on April 26, 2009 at 4:47 PM
By the way, I never got any such assurances. You can always be killed in training.
ddrintn on April 26, 2009 at 4:47 PM
getalife the liar is still cherry picking data. I wonder how many years Pelosi and Reid and Rockefeller will get for torturing the poor little head hackers? After all, unless they were stoned they have been right in the middle of this for years.
But hey, go find a guy who had concerns and strut and bray you liar.
Terrye on April 26, 2009 at 4:47 PM
Yes, just two files apparently–from his own personal “detainees” manila tortureporn files, evidently. The “evidence” must be a bit thin on the ground.
Grow Fins on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Now feel free to go back and use the definitions when the waterboarding was taken place… as the Congress shall make no Ex Post Facto law…
Romeo13 on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
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