Quotes of the day
posted at 10:35 pm on April 23, 2009 by Allahpundit
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“If we have another 2,000 people killed, I want Nancy Pelosi and [liberal philanthropist] George Soros, John Conyers and Pat Leahy to go to the funeral and say, ‘Your son was vaporized because we didn’t want to dump some guy’s head under water for 30 seconds.’”
***
“Mr. Obama may think he can soar above all of this, but he’ll soon learn otherwise. The Beltway’s political energy will focus more on the spectacle of revenge, and less on his agenda. The CIA will have its reputation smeared, and its agents second-guessing themselves. And if there is another terror attack against Americans, Mr. Obama will have set himself up for the argument that his campaign against the Bush policies are partly to blame.”
***
“At the White House, Press Secretary Adam Brickley said that President Sarah Palin stands firmly behind the decision. ‘It’s not as if we relish the thought of prosecuting members of the previous administration,’ Brickley said, ‘but, at this point, there is a clearly established precedent – set in place by the Obama Administration themselves – which says that government officials must be held accountable if they contributed in any way to major breaches of the law. In this case, the individuals under investigation do appear to have purposefully allowed these terrorists to continue their actions – prioritizing international public opinion over the lives of the American people. So, while this may be a politically charged issue, there is a real need to prosecute.’”
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best response to a troll ive seen in awhile
Chiasmos on April 23, 2009 at 11:36 PM
If only the rest of the GOP had the guts to get in the Donks face like this.
Fer cripes sakes, Republicans, the Left has been saying YOU are the enemy (not AQ!) for the past 7 years.
Time to grow a pair, doncha think?
Geez.
Bruno Strozek on April 23, 2009 at 11:36 PM
goodnight everyone
fight the trolls
*connery voice*
make em shuck it hard, and shuck it long
blatantblue on April 23, 2009 at 11:39 PM
Really! They allow a moron like you to run your mouth with out any fear that some one might kick your sorry, lame, spineless, ass.
BigWyo on April 23, 2009 at 11:39 PM
King is right. If they try to criminalize, ex post facto, political policy and practice, then the GOP must go nuke and shut down Congressional operations.
Obama is transforming us into a banana republic at a break-neck pace. We gotta draw the line somewhere and soon.
petefrt on April 23, 2009 at 11:39 PM
Or, alternatively, your son was vaporized because we were too busy dumping water on people’s heads to do effective interrogations.
Hal_10000 on April 23, 2009 at 11:39 PM
I don’t think you’re off topic at all and you make a good point. I used to think it would take the first job out of college to shake up the X-ers, but now with the entitlement mentality being way too prevalent, it will take much longer. I also believe many will see things differently depending upon how they are wired. I have never underestimated the power of self-esteem when accomplishments are of your own accord. The need to take risks, challenge yourself and achieve the goal on your own is either in you or not. It may not emerge as quickly as one would like but many are wired for self-acheivement. But just as many are wired for casting blame and fault at others due to their self-created unhappy state. Eg. Janeane Garofolo.
sherry on April 23, 2009 at 11:40 PM
Okay, I take my VP suggestion back. Yours is better. Just throw in the Attractive Economist as Treasury Secretary, and victory is assured.
Thanks for the info. Ah, Palin’s pick was a magical time. I literally cheered out loud when I found out. So exciting. Those were the days. Ah well, c’est la vie.
TheQuestion on April 23, 2009 at 11:40 PM
if Obama gets Americans killed trying to follow Purple Unicorns…that should be enough to prosecute him
jp on April 23, 2009 at 11:42 PM
Only if Obama doesn’t become President for life ofr if he’s counting on a permanent liberal majority.
Speakup on April 23, 2009 at 11:43 PM
The bolded section of your comment says it all. You live in a fantasy world where everyday is an episode of 24.
In real life our best intelligence is gathered from fair minded individuals who use basic interrogation tactics (that do not involve breaking our own laws and morals) to get the job done.
You are forgetting that the CIA banned these techniques on their own.
This is the only evidence that people who support torture can come up with? The “ticking-bomb” scenario?
Please.
ckoeber on April 23, 2009 at 11:43 PM
Tried to get a date??? My best guess.
BigWyo on April 23, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Wanted the military personnel to pay for their war injuries.
Johan Klaus on April 23, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Yep. Where I work, we have been getting bombarded with how we are to attract and keep the next generation of workers. Common among these ideas is that Gen-Xers expect to progress much faster, have more responsibility, and move into higher levels of authority sooner than previous generations. I’m sorry, but there is something to be said for having to earn your bones before progressing to the position of group VP. There is definitely an entitlement mentality — one of the good things about the current downturn is that it may provide some eye-opening reality to these sheltered children.
AZfederalist on April 23, 2009 at 11:47 PM
Fruitloops like the socialists on the left have no idea what it truly means to have to fight for your survival. They live in a fake world with a fake ideology.
One day, I hope not but it may come fairly soon, these left wing creampuffs are going to be begging for their very lives from a radical piece of crap and not getting the mercy they beg for. It’s going to be a wee bit too late to suddenly discover their current ordeal could have been averted with 3 things; individual freedom, personal responsibility, and common sense.
I’ll be doing my own thing when this happens, but while I am I’m going to relish watching the radical asshappy jihadists TORTURE the left winger infidels.
Spiritk9 on April 23, 2009 at 11:47 PM
panic. it’s going to be worse than watergate. that took a long time to filter out too. and the closer we are to the tipping point, the more kicking and screaming there’s going to be.
sesquipedalian on April 23, 2009 at 11:47 PM
So, waterboarding did not work?
Johan Klaus on April 23, 2009 at 11:48 PM
We have been pleading these leftists who worry about the terrorists rights and waterboarding. I only wish and Ive asked for days now what would you do to extract information that would save a city of a million? Islamos don’t care about your good intentions, to them you are just another athestic infidel. How about some solutions instead of sticking your head in the ground. This reminds me of J. Kerrys non answer to his solution to Iraq back in 04 and still have not heard that one.
garydt on April 23, 2009 at 11:49 PM
So, you don’t like waterboarding either?
Johan Klaus on April 23, 2009 at 11:50 PM
panic. it’s going to be worse than watergate. that took a long time to filter out too. and the closer we are to the tipping point, the more kicking and screaming there’s going to be.
sesquipedalian on April 23, 2009 at 11:47 PM
So Nixon did his best to convince everyone that relevant Watergate documents should be made public?
I try to be sympathetic to people in your condition, but I often find myself just not caring anymore; I’m afraid the well of concern may be running dry.
Bishop on April 23, 2009 at 11:51 PM
Unfortunately if there is an attack on American soil, the American people will rally behind the President, just as they rallied behind Bush after 9/11 (for about a month, in the case of the Democrats). Obama will become even more popular than he already is.
There would have to be incontrovertible proof of the attack occurring because of negligence on the part of the Obama administration for there to be any negative consequences for him politically, and that won’t happen because he will simply cover it up and the news media won’t pursue it.
That won’t be any solace to the Americans who will be killed in the attack, but chances are very good that al Qaeda will kill a bunch of Democrats in New York or LA instead of Republicans, so I’m finding it hard to be upset at what they bring down on themselves.
Tabris on April 23, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Whether it worked or did not work isn’t the point. What’s to say that other techniques would not have worked?
Let’s reframe the question this way. If another technique that does not involve torture works at least as well as waterboarding, should we use that instead? In the case of KSM and others we will never know.
But back to the fundamental issue. We tried people from other countries for this, convicted them, and executed them for this.
Under the Bush Administration, we court martialled our own soldiers just for stacking prisoners in pyramids to take photos.
Bush explicitly said himself that the United States does not torture.
What more is there to say?
ckoeber on April 23, 2009 at 11:53 PM
Sure they did little Billy…just keep telling yourself that…and it’ll come true.
And if you really want to hear a good fairy tail, let me start it out like this….There once was a President, his name was Barak Obama….he was good, and kind, and….*gag*
Wait…this will take me 3 years to write and by then I’ll be back home living in a commune with my family…
BigWyo on April 23, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Good point. Last year I hired a 24-year old who had minimal experience so I gave him a small territory to get a feel for the business. On day one when I gave him the cell phone, etc., the first complaint was that it wasn’t an Iphone. When I told him it wasn’t necessary at this stage, he then asked me why I had one. I gave it about six months and then severed ties. He’ll learn one day but not on my dime. I have only had to fire a few people in my life and it is very difficult (no matter what the circumstances) but this one, I was almost tempted to tell him I am doing it for your own good. Learn from it.
sherry on April 23, 2009 at 11:55 PM
For waterboarding? Proof.
Johan Klaus on April 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Obama has created,and is living in the Temple of Doom,
the Snake Leader of the Liberal Socialist Par
Pelosi,also speaks with a forked-tongue,I be tellin the truth/I be lying to your face!
So much for justice,so long, and it was awfully nice to know
you,
THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD,because with Hopey,there is none!
OBAMA’S MESSAGE,is Crystal Clear,America is up for grabs,
and make no doubt about it,
Obama is asking,begging,for an ATTACK on AMERICAN SOIL!
Hopey has been criss-crossing,and prancing with all the
worlds undesireable leaders,–and WHY?
What the hell does anyone really and honestly expect,the
only Mission Accomplished that Obama has ever attained is
a 2 year Senator!
A Girl Guide,or Cub Scout with 6 months experience is more
qualified than Obama!
I’m starting to believe this really isn’t freestyle winging it,there has been a plan,design,a template against the US,
just as Obama is more concerned with throwing Israel under
da bus!
canopfor on April 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM
What technique would you use ckober?? Is this a state secret? which city would you sacrifice? Can you answer before I got o bed?
garydt on April 23, 2009 at 11:56 PM
In real life our best intelligence is gathered from fair minded individuals who use basic interrogation tactics (that do not involve breaking our own laws and morals) to get the job done.
The purest of comedy gold. Our best intelligence is bought, paid for in hundos to people who would scare the curls out of your hair; guys who exist on the very fringe of civilization and sell info for a bag of silver.
Oh wait, you actually believe that the new Harvard-grad whiz kid who just joined the CIA is actually going to be able to operate under-cover in the tribal regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan?
Bishop on April 23, 2009 at 11:57 PM
Call me sadistic but I’d torture a terrorist just for the sweet taste of revenge. If they want to kill and die for Allah, I’m more than willing to help them meet him. I don’t need a nuke scenario, just the thought of a single American threatened by those 7th century savages is enough.
Hoo Yah!
DerKrieger on April 23, 2009 at 11:57 PM
ses:
Panic? Worse than Watergate? You are dreaming. The majority of the American people are not going to agree with you on this, the majority of the Democratic party are not even going to agree with you on this. All this amounts to is an attempt by the Obama administration to pacify a vengeful left while at the same time trying to distract from the failure of his own agenda.
However, once it becomes obvious that the Democrats were aware of the techniques being used and people get back to seeing unemployment rise and the deficits..soar..people might see things differently.
As for unhinged, we have the left for that. They have been unhinged on this every since it became apparent that Bush might get some credit for keeping the country safe. They could not have that. No sir.
Terrye on April 23, 2009 at 11:58 PM
Oops,forgot ty,on Party,Ugh!
canopfor on April 23, 2009 at 11:58 PM
Apparently you know more than Dennis Blair and the members of the intelligence community who felt it necessary to use the techniques. But who am I to question some anonymous blog commenter who purports to know all about how our best intelligence is collected? As we all know, the best intelligence officers are on political blogs at midnight.
Do you think the interrogators immediately jumped to dunking KSM or perhaps they tried asking him nicely first? I doubt they’re jazzed about simulated drowning and risking prosecution if they can acquire the intelligence through other, easier methods.
amerpundit on April 23, 2009 at 11:59 PM
Here you go:
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:01 AM
ckoeber:
Bush did not lie. This is not torture. Have you been living in a fairyland all your life? What do you think happened during the cold war? What do you think Clinton’s rendition was all about?
AlQaida has been known to cut off people’s heads with dull knives, put children in ovens to bake…and you think this is torture? You worry about international public opinion when the UN coddles some of the most vicious dictators on the planet?
You people are like children.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:01 AM
That is exactly the point. And , if waterboarding was torture, I am positive that so many people would be volunteering to have it tried on them.
Johan Klaus on April 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM
And where in your response did we use torture to get that information?
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM
I believe he was asking a bit more about the execution part.
amerpundit on April 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM
I’m sure they started with tickling his feet with a feather. When that didn’t work they tried farting in his face repeatedly. And when that failed, KSM is a tough bastard, they really took it to him and sang to him in Hebrew. But, he didn’t break so they had to put him in the dunk tank.
DerKrieger on April 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM
I sincerely hope that this is just late night venting, not how you really feel.
Because if it is how you really feel, it is most definitely not cool.
I left the Left because of the prevalence of this kind of bullshit over there. I expect (and have found) better over here. So please knock it off, OK?
Goodnight.
Bruno Strozek on April 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM
That’s just the thing with you idiots(Liberal Smaktards). It’s always about ‘What if?’ and ‘Well.maybe that’ and ‘If only that….
You are all spinless, aimless, limp wristed douche bags that will never take a stand on anything.
BigWyo on April 24, 2009 at 12:03 AM
Rendition or, as it’s called by its detractors, “torture by proxy”? That never happened under Clinton. He simply bribed them with lolipops and pony rides, dontcha know.
amerpundit on April 24, 2009 at 12:04 AM
ckoeber:
That is not true. For one thing, those Japanese did a lot more than water board. I happen to know an old man who was in a Japanese POW camp for 3 years and they starved him, worked him nearly to death and they did not do it for intel, they did it because they could. And those soldiers were POWs. Waterboarding such has been done to three AlQAida terrorists was not the same thing that was done in the above mentioned incident.
We have waterboarded three people, and that was years ago. Keep it in perspective.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:04 AM
Under the Bush Administration, we court martialled our own soldiers just for stacking prisoners in pyramids to take photos.
The purview of their mission, the construct of military law, the expectation of their duty station. Those soldiers went way beyond what they were assigned to do.
The semantic gray-area which is national defense-related intelligence gathering isn’t nearly as neat and clean as you or your cohorts want it to be.
If you can give a logical point at which interrogation stops and torture begins, as Obowa would say, I’m all ears.
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:05 AM
When people are dying in the next attack, they’ll die happily, knowing that our hogs don’t smell nearly as bad as they used to…
Daggett on April 24, 2009 at 12:05 AM
I understand the sentiment. The Left works day and night to deconstruct this nation and just as hard to rebuild it into some kind of socialist paradise. The Left is relentless in its desire to destroy this country.
DerKrieger on April 24, 2009 at 12:05 AM
Tabris on April 23, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Man, that’s a bit brutal.
It should upset you, they are your fellow Americans. Regardless of how you feel about their politics, they have families, children, people who love them.
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:08 AM
I am sure that as time passes the intel people will find new and better ways to get information, but the decision to use these techniques was approved not only by the Bush administration, but by members of Congress as well because they were considered the best methods available to get information needed to save lives. The techniques were used sparingly and they did save lives.
And I do not doubt for a minute that Clinton would have done the same thing. And even Obama himself has allowed some leeway here for the ticking bomb case.
The fact is the left is using this for revenge. They do not care about the truth, or the alternatives, or the motivations. It is the usual political game playing. So I guess all that nonsense about post partisanship was just a lie on Obama’s part.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:11 AM
Fun reading about President Palin. I doubt that it will happen, but it is nice to think that the country might get back to reality and common sense.
If Obama proceeds with investigation of Bush staffers, the division caused will do significant damage to his presidency. I’d guess the statute of limitations is going to run out on his possible prosecution statement. Or it will be like his campaign statement that he is against free trade with Canada and then called the Canadian officials and told them it was just campaign rhetoric. Don’t forget, campaingning is the one thing that Obama has experience at. So he’s still campaigning. For a dem that means promise them anything and do whatever you want.
Christian Conservative on April 24, 2009 at 12:12 AM
The intelligence community will do whatever they want to fulfill the objectives. That is obvious. It is up to the people via various options (our elected officials and the courts) to set the boundaries.
We have intelligence officials who believe we should nuke everyone we disagree with. Does that mean we follow that train of thought and give the go ahead?
We did retrieve valuable information before we started to waterboard him. The problem was that officials though they could drastically speed up the process. They wanted to expedite the retrieval of information. Some of the information was valuable, some wasn’t. In the end, not only was it not worth it (as we were already successfully garnering information without those techniques) we are actually worse off because now we lost the moral high ground we may have had.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:12 AM
This isn’t torture? Then you go through the process on a Friday night with some friends.
Bringing up the cold war, Clinton’s era of rendidtions, etc. only strengthens my case. You are pointing to other instances of moral decay as defense of this. That’s like me saying “Well he murdered too!” in a defense of murder.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Loxodonta on April 24, 2009 at 12:17 AM
ckoeber:
The intel people got more information after waterboarding the man. Stop trying to make them the villains. You do not know what you are talking about.
Just like with the WW2 analogy. Entire cities were laid to waste in that war. Tens of millions of people died. And you honestly think the US executed Japanese for doing nothing more than waterboarding American POWs.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:17 AM
And where in your response did we use torture to get that information?
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:02 AM
Nowhere, but we were talking about our “best” intelligence, not our “only” intelligence.
You mentioned morals and fair-minded people, I’m wondering how our morals are compromised when we buy information from one terrorist to get a location for killing a different terrorist. How do our fair-minded individuals react when they learn that American taxpayer money is being given to people who only months ago were trying to kill our soldiers?
Is there an actual Congressional funding bill that specifically allocates money to buy information from known terrorists and shady individuals, or does it come from a general fund and is used in a way that may be breaking U.S. law in some way?
Are you delusional to the point of actually believing that torture isn’t being used by just about every nation on earth in an effort to protect their national interests?
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:17 AM
What’s wrong with waterboarding? It is not torture. And as far as I’m concerned, after 9-11 I could care less if we pulled out each of their fingernails to get info. We did what we had to do and since 9-11 we have not had an attack on this soil even though we could have since we have stopped some attacks as well as having a porous border.
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:17 AM
I have zero sympathy for whatever happens to people whose stupidity and irresponsibility will lead to my own death, and the deaths of people I care about. That is a bipartisan lack of caring, for the record, but right now I only see Democrats being idiots and not Republicans, so my ire is directed at them.
I pray every day that it does not happen, but only a fool would look around and not be prepared for a mass casualty terror attack. The United States has not been this weak or exposed for seven years.
Tabris on April 24, 2009 at 12:18 AM
ckoeber:
And it is as if you saying, I sat back and did nothing while innocent people died because I did not want to get my hands dirty.
There are a lot of things I would not like to go through on a Friday night with my friends. But then again I am not AlQaida, I am not plotting and planning attacks of mass murder either.
If we are going to talk about what I would not like, I would not like being questioned with a lawyer either. I would not being detained, or bothered, or in any way messed with. Is that to be the standard? If it is unpleasant, we can’t do it?
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Some people are too stupid too realize that in every war or skirmish we have been in since WW2, not one of our enemy has NOT used torture of slave labor in regards to our captive troops. Ironically, the best treated U.S. POW’s were the aircrews captured by Nazi Germany cause Goerring had an affinity for the Air Force.
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Then why bother with things like the Geneva convention, war crimes, etc. if you are going to just blow past them in the name of defense.
You are contradicting yourself at the core without realizing it. What if Obama said that to defend this country we need to declare martial law and round everyone up in camps to “weed out” the terrorists?
Under your logic it would be OK as you can break laws when you need to.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:21 AM
I think we on the right are making a bit of a mistake here.
The Left is arguing that anything short of Club Fed for terrorists is torture, illegal, and a human right abuse.
Arguing that a little waterboarding of terrorists is acceptable is obviously true…but it makes it easier to push the argument to the Left. Simply put, stop being apologetic.
The rules of war call for summary execution for terrorists. Our official policies should be to extract as much information as possible from terrorists and a firing squad.
The fact that we continue to baby the likes of KSM is in fact a crime against humanity and as we have seen has only encouraged the Islamists further.
The Left could care less about what we do with terrorists – remember “extreme rendition” during the Clinton years was perfectly acceptable – it is all about silly talking points.
And speaking of talking points, had Clinton gone by my standard, or even Bush’s overly soft one, and had Osama Bin Laden shot any of the half dozen times he was offered up, there would likely have been no 9/11 and perhaps no Iraq War (at least not one on our terms).
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:24 AM
And with that thinking we will always live in fear. Why not just write a blank check then to the government and let them do anything with your money to protect us?
How about ripping up the constitution so that the government does not have ANY restrictions to prevent what you pictured from happening again?
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:25 AM
You do realize that these are non-uniformed enemy combatants, right? You further realize that the Geneva convention does NOT apply to non-uniformed combatants?
In past conflicts such saboteurs, assassins, and spies would have been shot on the spot with NO requirement for any Geneva protections.
AZfederalist on April 24, 2009 at 12:26 AM
Look on the net.
Johan Klaus on April 24, 2009 at 12:26 AM
One of the great ironies here is that during Vietnam, the Left cheered on the NVA torturing American soldiers. And I mean torture here, not waterboarding.
Hell, you can still find Lefties laughing about McCain’s treatment at the hands of their heroes in North Vietnam…
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:27 AM
ckoeber:
Oh for heavens sake. There is nothing in the Geneva Convention that says a nation can not use harsh interrogation methods. And the people at Abu Ghraib were not gathering intel, they were acting on their own and out of line and because of that they are in prison.
No one is saying we can break laws. No one has proven any laws were broken.
However, if you are going to criminalize legal opinions then it just might be that some of Obama’s people will end up in jail for legal opinions in regards to TARP. I am sure there are people out there who would argue that there has been some illegal activity there.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:27 AM
Obama is already working on it – can’t you just give him a little more time?
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:28 AM
Yes, they risked prosecution and used what could be defined as torture because they wanted to get to McDonalds 5 minutes earlier for lunch. Of course, you were in the room for the interrogation, so you know exactly how it went down and the information gathered thanks to the process.
As for the moral high ground, how did we lose it? Are we suddenly no better than the guys who saw off the heads of civilians or use mentally-retarded women to blow up a marketplace because we dunked terrorists looking to kill innocent civilians years ago? That’s an old left-wing talking point looking to convince Americans that we’re now just as bad as Bin Laden. It’s bullcrap.
amerpundit on April 24, 2009 at 12:28 AM
Please leftists, can anyone come up with an alternative to waterboarding? Its getting late.
garydt on April 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM
ckoeber:
Where do you get off talking about ripping up the constitution, you sanctimonious little prig. Look at you preaching to everyone.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Do you mean, like not enforcing immigration laws? By the way, the Geneva protections were for uniformed soldiers.
Johan Klaus on April 24, 2009 at 12:30 AM
Torture?
~ glass rod inserted into penis then smashed when desired information is not forthcoming.
~ removing ones fingernails with pliers.
~ Severe beatings / broken bones and dislocation of shoulders.
~Sleep deprivation or sound flooding? Nope.
~Bugs and such? Are you kidding me? NO.
~Waterboarding? I don’t think so.
This whole ‘argument’ is a pathetic distraction from the probability that the Obama administration is, in fact carrying out ‘torture’ a-la rendition. If they can vilify the act and associate it firmly with the Bush administration they can seriously reduce the likelihood that they will ever be investigated for it at a later date.
Obama know how to kick up dirt to cover his sh*t covered boots.
LEBA on April 24, 2009 at 12:30 AM
Then why bother with things like the Geneva convention, war crimes, etc. if you are going to just blow past them in the name of defense.
You are contradicting yourself at the core without realizing it. What if Obama said that to defend this country we need to declare martial law and round everyone up in camps to “weed out” the terrorists?
Under your logic it would be OK as you can break laws when you need to.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:21 AM
Declaring martial law would be a problem, basically because it affects U.S. citizens rather than non-citizen terrorists, but then again you knew that when you mentioned the Geneva Convention, right?
You went through all the trouble of bolding what I said about intelligence gathering but apparently failed to comprehend the actual words. How do you readily define “intelligence gathering” any more than you readily define “torture”?
The semantics will only get you in trouble which is why organizations such as the CIA are given broad-brush latitude to conduct their operations, why a sizable portion of their funding is unallocated (black).
As I asked already and you seem to be hesitant to answer: At what point does interrogation end and torture begin?
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:31 AM
An unlawful enemy combatant doesn’t need to be afforded the rights and priveleges of a POW under the Geneva Convention.
amerpundit on April 24, 2009 at 12:31 AM
There is nothing in the constitution that prohibits any kind of interrogation.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:31 AM
Equating negotiating tactics out in the field to taking someone in a room and performing “procedures” on them have no comparison.
The transaction out in the field that you describe is far more restrictive than the wide variety of options you have when the person is in your custody and you have a fair amount of time to bring in skilled interrogators that do not need to work outside the law to get the job done.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:31 AM
What are you angry about?
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:33 AM
I have it on good authority that Rumsfeld called up Grainer, asked him to find an unattractive woman, and proceed to have sex with her in front of a random group of low level prisoners to gain valuable intel.
On a more serious note, it is a sad state of events that Graner’s record of prisoner abuse as a civilian prison guard wasn’t reviewed before he was assigned to Gen “I know nothing” Karpinski’s command.
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:34 AM
I have to hit the sack so I’ll finish where I started: “We don’t torture” is a nice theory for the classroom and a popular campaign promise. But when push comes to shove, I doubt even Obama would hesitate to do whatever necessary to save American lives from a planned terrorist attack. You’d be surprised what you’d do and what “morals” you’d violate if your family’s lives are on the line.
amerpundit on April 24, 2009 at 12:34 AM
ckoeber will be responsible when Americans die in the future. His stupidity is willful and dangerous.
Tabris on April 24, 2009 at 12:35 AM
One of the best interrogations the FBI has ever done. Completely within our laws and moral values.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:35 AM
ckoeber:
You do not know what is available. You do not even know the options. The point is that this was used on only three people and that was years ago and you are treating it as if we do it all day everyday to thousands and thousands of people with no oversight for the sheer nasty fun of breaking the law or something.
You do not know the circumstances, you do not know how many lives were save or who would have died if it had not been done, you do not know that it was illegal…but you do know that no one was killed or maimed or left impaired in any way. You do know that there was oversight.
But more importantly, most importantly, you do know that the President had an R behind his name.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM
And for the record, Obama would definitely lock a terrorist in a closet with some moths in order to get information, don’t kid yourselves.
Tabris on April 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM
Yeah I remember them laughing at the fact that McCain couldn’t raise his arms or type properly on a computer. F–kin morons.
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM
I know, I know. Stupid of me and others to actually attempt to limit the government to what they can and cannot do in the name of National Security.
I should just let them do whatever they want.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:38 AM
Actually, it is more that, IMO.
By treating terrorists as POWs we are encouraging Islamists to fight as terrorists instead of soldiers or even guerrillas. There is a much lower risk of being shot when you are hunting aid workers and journalists then taking on soldiers. If the worst we are going to do to you in response for these things is “caterpillar” you, why wouldn’t you choose the terrorist path?
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:38 AM
This whole ‘argument’ is a pathetic distraction from the probability that the Obama administration is, in fact carrying out ‘torture’ a-la rendition. If they can vilify the act and associate it firmly with the Bush administration they can seriously reduce the likelihood that they will ever be accused of it at a later date.
Obama knows how to kick up dirt to distract from his sh*t covered boots. Pay attention.
LEBA on April 24, 2009 at 12:39 AM
ckoeber:
This was within our laws. And you know something else? Some people will break easier than others. The success of an interrogation has as much to do with the subject as it does the techniques used.
You were not there, you do not know what you are talking about.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Bullshit. Give me some proof that he would. He has given absolutely no indications that he would. He is a rank amateur when it comes to what it takes to keep this country safe. I never was a great supporter of Bush, but I will always respect the way he kept us safe “by any means necessary”!
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:40 AM
Equating negotiating tactics out in the field to taking someone in a room and performing “procedures” on them have no comparison.
You mentioned morals, is it now a measure of degrees on how far we are willing to damage our moral standing? If our morals are being compromised, they are being compromised, yes? Or is buying info from terrorists and working with people who have killed our soldiers “moral”?
The transaction out in the field that you describe is far more restrictive than the wide variety of options you have when the person is in your custody and you have a fair amount of time to bring in skilled interrogators that do not need to work outside the law to get the job done.
Wait, what? Restrictive? I’ll ask again: When does interrogation stop and torture begin?
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:31 AM
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:40 AM
Morals? What the f–k does morals play in this game? In warfare there are no morals or absolutes. You engage the enemy and annihilate them. We have done that and need to keep doing that.
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:42 AM
Sort of like FDR?
Johan Klaus on April 24, 2009 at 12:43 AM
ckoeber:
Limit government? You mentioned WW2 and the fact that we supposedly executed Japanese for doing nothing more than waterboarding a few Americans…not true of course. However, in WW2 the US government did round up and lock up Japanese American civilians in camps. Somehow or other that was not seen as too much government.
But decades later waterboarding 3 captured terrorists who want to kill Americans is an affront to the constitution.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:43 AM
So in those scenarios you describe we can essentially do whatever we want? Great. Let’s just nuke the entire area and call it a day!
Seriously, by finding loopholes around laws that we were responsible for creating we only make ourselves look like hypocrites. Many people wonder why the world is not behind us; well this is it! By taking the hands-off approach that they are taking we undermine the very reason Geneva conventions were implemented in the first place. There need not be laws at that point because we have undertaken the “dog-eat-dog” mentality.
Within that realm we are not too far away from sawing off heads and making videos ourselves.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:44 AM
Well done.
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:44 AM
Bishop:
Doncha see? If we hand these guys over to someone else and let them get what we need however they have to..we get to stick our noses in the air and be morally superior. Second hand torture, is okay fine.
The Europeans have been doing it for years.
Terrye on April 24, 2009 at 12:46 AM
One of the best interrogations the FBI has ever done. Completely within our laws and moral values.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:35 AM
From the article:
–”So how do you crack a guy like that (Saddam)?” Pelley asks.
“Time,” Piro says.
Months of time, during which Piro manipulated Saddam, creating a relationship based on dependency, trust and emotion.–
And of course we will always have months of time to work these things out.
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:46 AM
Yeah I know, I thought FDR was O’bama’s hero. Maybe someone needs to let him on that secret. Hmmm. We actually put Japanese/American citizens in camps.
FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 24, 2009 at 12:46 AM
Were German infiltrators not waterboarded but actually executed during WW2?
Johan Klaus on April 24, 2009 at 12:48 AM
Oh, and speaking of WWII, we captured German soldiers wearing American military uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge – and then we shot them since they were “spies”, not POWs.
That darn FDR. Someone should charge him in the Hague.
18-1 on April 24, 2009 at 12:48 AM
One question? Then why do you sound so scared?
Oh, you’re not scared? Then I guess this is a display of that famous bleeding heart I hear about? How humble of you to offer such savvy advice to the opposition. Oh wait, that can’t be right, I just noticed the venom in your words…
Lets see, if you’re smart, you would just shut the f*ck up and let us commit to your “guaranteed” win…that’s not what you did. If you were being kind, you would not have sounded so venomous….so you’re definitely not smart or being generous….so there must be only one logical conclusion based on the evidence before me….you and others like you piss your pants at the sound of her name…
‘President Sarah Palin’
‘President Sarah Palin’
May your pasty white skin crawl and crawl.
javamartini on April 24, 2009 at 12:49 AM
Within that realm we are not too far away from sawing off heads and making videos ourselves.
ckoeber on April 24, 2009 at 12:44 AM
Mendacious, hyperbolic tripe and barely worthy of responding to; if ever I have seen a bigger pile of patheticness than that comment, I honestly don’t remember it.
Bishop on April 24, 2009 at 12:50 AM
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