CIA: We stand behind our actions — and the results
posted at 2:45 pm on April 21, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
With Barack Obama releasing the OLC memos and branding them as all but criminal and leaving the door open to prosecutions connected to the interrogation of Al-Qaeda terrorists, one might expect the CIA to retreat from its earlier defense of its actions. So far, though, the agency remains tenacious in insisting that waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Abu Zubaydah saved American lives. CNS News reports that the CIA stands by its 2005 memo describing how those interrogations stopped another 9/11-scale attack:
The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack — which KSM called the “Second Wave”– planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM initially resisted all other interrogation procedures, right up to the waterboard. He insisted that Americans did not have the necessary resolve to get information out of him, and that we would only know about the next plot when it killed hundreds, if not thousands again. Only after the waterboard did KSM cough up the information on the “second wave” attacks, and the CIA and other national-security agencies stopped it.
Does this answer whether waterboarding is torture? Not really. Does it negate the canard that “torture never works”? Yes. Torture works in getting people to talk, and sometimes they tell the truth. The CIA got what it wanted — the information it needed to save lives — but it doesn’t prove or disprove whether a mock-execution procedure like waterboarding is torture or not.
It does, however, pose a difficult question for Americans, especially since the CIA even under Leon Panetta seems determined to get an answer to it. What price do we want to pay for a pristine conscience in combating terrorism? Do you mind if it costs thousands of American lives in plots we can’t discover because a terrorist suspect captured in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or somewhere else has lawyered up? Are there times when we can appropriately use a non-lethal technique without letting the target know that it’s non-lethal, in order to save American lives?
Both sides need to quit pretending on this issue. Mock executions fit the definition of torture, and they also saved a lot of American lives. If we can admit to reality, then we can have an honest debate about how far we should go to protect ourselves, and what price might be too high for our public image internationally.
Blowback
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Daniel pearl
Nick berg
All the others beheaded by these kalab. These dogs.
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Hypotheticals are stupid. You can use “scenarios” to justify any position under the sun.
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:03 PM
I wish you lefties were as enraged at the behavior of our enemies.
We are. We expect more of Americans. You obviously don’t. See daesleeper’s post for example.
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 3:59 PM
The fact that there were are a great many conversations about torture, and where to draw the line is a great example of that “more from Americans”. The fact that the line is being drawn where it has been (very far short of what our enemies are willing to do) is again an example. But your hyperbolic arguments want to equate the two which are clearly not equal.
Scrappy on April 21, 2009 at 4:03 PM
For the trolls. THIS is torture. Be sure to watch to the end.
Conservative_SAHM on April 21, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Exactly. If all that happens to an American captured by our enemies is waterboarding, we’ve hit the jackpot.
So intending to toughen someone up is a better intent than wanting to save lives?
Truly sad.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Indeed it is. But more importantly it’s about preventing more attacks. You remember 9/11 right?
Or is that old f*ucking news?
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Grow Fins, let me put this bluntly. Had you been president (or Barak Obama for that matter) in 2005, thousands of currently living and breathing Americans in L.A. would now be dead. And their deaths would have been a direct result of your policies. Good work. Hope you would be sleeping well, though, knowing that KSM wasn’t too harshly interrogated.
Zetterson on April 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Not according to Esthier. Do you actually believe the drivel you write?
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM
You’re the one who started in this thread asking if any of us would ever support torture. Now you’re the one who won’t answer the same question.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:06 PM
The waterboarding saved my daughters life…now ask me if I care he was waterboarded…now ask me if I care he was even tortured…same answer.
When I saw L.A., and I always knew it could be, it still produced a knot in my stomach.
If not for brave men, doing what they have to do, knowing what they may have to face for doing it, makes me weep for the current administration, and the supporters who think thousands of lives, and millions of people affected is not worth waterboarding one criminal.
right2bright on April 21, 2009 at 4:06 PM
This whole mess about what is or isn’t or when or not to torture is from the liberal guilt complex after their having demanded that all means necessary be employed to get information in order to avoid another attack after 911.
Liberals are making their protectors suffer for their own guilt derived from slithering down their ivory towers and swimming in the gutter of their own volition, out of their own cowardice, out of their own shame and out of their own political ambitions.
Speakup on April 21, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Indeed it is. But more importantly it’s about preventing more attacks. You remember 9/11 right?
Or is that old f*ucking news?
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:08 PM
HUH? Ifn I shoot you out or shoot you out of hate, yer still dead…
Torture is an ACT, not an intent.
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 4:08 PM
There was a video showing a US Soldier being shot in the head from long ago that was purported to be him. I used to hope. I used to fly around and imagine he’d be out there and maybe try to signal one of us flying over where we might be. It’s foolish to think that they’d keep anyone alive for any length of time though. Wishful thinking.
This was a link to the thread Michelle did.
Fins, there’s no comparison to what the two sides. Also, there’s no reasoning with someone who still won’t believe these people are animals even as they’re your nugget from your shoulders.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:08 PM
So do I, I guess that’s why you’re such a disappointment when it comes to being an American, but hey, life’s full of disappointments!
So oh great and wise knower of “moral high ground” and all that is “morally equivalent” why have you not shared with me and the rest commenting here what you would do given the two scenarios I posted earlier. After all you’re so sure of your position on “moral high ground” and “moral equivalency” issues surely you have an answer to the scenarios I posed, or are you just all talk!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 4:11 PM
I laugh at you and your meaningless points. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:15 PM
It doesn’t? Tell that to the 1, 435 people who lost their lives on July 19, 2005 when the hijacked American Airlines flight #457 crashed into the US Bank Tower in Los Angeles.
Oh, that’s right, that never happened because:
The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles. Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.” According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack — which KSM called the “Second Wave”– planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
carbon_footprint on April 21, 2009 at 4:15 PM
I think it is time for the lefties to Apologize to Bush/Cheney! I’m thinking bumper sticker. Where does it say that if we waterboard the likes of KSM, and make him tell us what the next Al Qaida plan is so we can stop it makes us no better than them? How can that be? It is impossible to get from here to there.
How do people come up with this stuff?
We didn’t slice their heads half way off and right before he died he told us what was up next.
We didn’t blow up a plane and then say-tell us what Al Qaida is planning or we will do it again.
We didn’t strap bombs to our children let them walk to a police station and after it blew up we said “we’ll do it again if you don’t tell us what Al Qaida is planning”.
So end this already. Read the results from the CIA.
Frances on April 21, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Which post is drivel? The one where I argue that waterboarding isn’t torture or the one where the guy dies in the WTC?
BTW, you never answered my question earlier in regards to these “alternatives” you speak of so I’ll ask again.
Explain your “alternatives” and be specific.
Conservative_SAHM on April 21, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Says who? I’ve only argued what waterboarding isn’t torture and that I can’t be convinced otherwise until people stop willingly subjecting themselves to it.
I can’t watch the video, but I do believe the 9/11 victims were tortured. I know of no person who would willingly subject themselves to what they went through.
Now, that’s not my criteria for what constitutes torture, but it is a useful measure.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Yes waterboarding is torture and yes it very well can work, and if torture can work at all on a given subject this may be the best method. The nonsensical squeamishness by the not yet grownups about its use should be totally ignored by the CIA. If a subject has information that revealed can save even one life we would want to save (never mind the mass causality scenarios) then I think it clear that the moral obligation would justify something as non-lethal as water boarding properly done.
Let’s stops all the wimpy, irresponsible, self-defeating nonsense about it.
Chessplayer on April 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM
I’ve been asking for a while. No answers. Lots of moral chest pounding about the evils of torture, but no answers.
Scrappy on April 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Nice deflection there grow-a-brain, but typical of lefty trolls like you. You can’t come up with a logical and reasoned response to the scenarios I posed so you call me stupid…EPIC FAIL!
Personally I believe you and get-a-clue et al are panty waist pacifists and your twisted ideology have blinded you to the point that you have no moral compass that allows you to differentiate good from evil to the point where you’d allow your family to be murdered or allow Hitler to rise to power to kill millions, that’s my opinion!
BOTTOM LINE IS YOU AND YOUR ILK KNOW THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCY BETWEEN WHAT THE US HAS DONE IN THE WAR AGAINST FASCIST ISLAM AND WHAT OUR ENEMIES HAVE DONE…AGAIN, YOUR STALE AND MOLDY LEFTY MEME NOT SUPPORTED BY FACTS, LOGIC, OR REASONING…AGAIN EPIC FAIL!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Grow Fins,
Grow a pair and brain. Like Romeo 13, I’ve been to S.E.R.E. The Obama administration has handed over a handbook to our enemies that will make it easy for them to avoid the ticking clock scenario. Hope you think its worth it when your city goes up in a mushroom cloud.
Star20 on April 21, 2009 at 4:25 PM
“Only after [being waterboarded 183 times] did KSM cough up the information on the “second wave” attacks, and the CIA and other national-security agencies stopped it.”
No need to tell the truth Hot Air… I mean Democtratic Underground… I mean Daily Kos… I’m sorry where am I again?
PresidenToor on April 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM
YES. My father did the same thing, and my buddies at school relate their stories of SERE from the Corps to me.
And then liberals talk about torture.
Unreal
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Can we perhaps distinguish, at least, between mental and physical anguish? It’s not a nice, bright line (as mental anguish can trigger physical effects, and vice versa), but it’s easy enough to generalize that mental anguish is ordinarily not torture in the narrowest definition of the word.
Let’s never cave into the Lefties and their trial lawyers, who seem to observe torture or anguish in everything, such as the (supposed) flushing of a Koran. Give me a break!
cackcon on April 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM
People construe our interrogators as just arbitrary torturers.
If you read the account of Zubaydah’s interrogation, when he was compliant, he received clothing, more comfort, food, etc.
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM
I don’t think waterboarding is torture. It is definitely an interrogation technique. And waterboarding probably shouldn’t be done to regular service military.
But there’s a reason why the Geneva conventions lays out guidelines for servicemen and women. Your average GI doesn’t know details about a plot to blow up innocent civilians. At best, he knows where his unit will be station in the near future. Your average terrorist might. Your terrorist LEADER almost certainly does. Why apply the Army Field Manual to someone who won’t confront us on the battlefield?
If we’re weighing the public relations value of not torturing versus the life-saving value of information gained, I’ll take the life-saving value every time. I’d much rather do the waterboarding, save the lives, and then release a transcript of the interrogation sessions.
hawksruleva on April 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Exactly. There’s not even a premise of fear. It’ll be like going to a movie someone’s already told you not only the plot to, but how it ends. There’s nothing left to compel them to talk.
obama and his administration has made the US less safe.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:31 PM
You think you’re so funny, but what does the number add to the conversation. The facts are that he talked, and lives were saved.
You and getalife seem to think that number holds some kind of meaning, but it can’t take away from the fact that he talked, and lives were saved even though he wouldn’t have talked otherwise.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM
There’s nothing wrong with hoping against all odds.
Like Mike Durant said, “NSDQ”
Kai on April 21, 2009 at 4:33 PM
How far? There should be no limit. We should do whatever is necessary to ensure the enemy does all the dying and endures all the pain. Forget image. Results are all that matters.
Before you start lecturing me, stop and consider how far you would go if it was your child, spouse, parents, or siblings. If honest, nearly everyone would say they would kill to protect any or all of those from that group. So, I have to ask, if you’d kill them, then why would you not “torture” them?
Sergeant Tim on April 21, 2009 at 4:35 PM
So, some nuts are harder to crack then others, so WTF is your point, or do you really have one at all other than to insinuate we here at HA are no better than DU, DKOS, et al?
HEY LOOK, ANOTHER STALE AND LAME LEFTY “MORAL EQUIVALENCE” STATEMENT…FROM A LEFTY…SHOCKER!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 4:36 PM
I never called you stupid. But your pointless what ifs don’t prove a thing. Hopeful, the impeachment of Bybee will settle some of these questions.
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:36 PM
That’s part of what makes the whole “definition” question difficult. Mock executions are pretty generally accepted as torture. Holding a gun to someone’s head and pulling the trigger is seen as over the line, because the subject believe he’s about to die.
To me, I’m ok with forms of “mental” torture that don’t create long-term after effects.
hawksruleva on April 21, 2009 at 4:36 PM
You could go back to your own site and try to jin up a few more comments there. Jealous much? Pitiful.
BTW, I think the President would resent being called a “colored man”.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:37 PM
It’s rude to shout. We can hear you just fine.
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:37 PM
How do AQ members and other terrorists have legal protections?
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:37 PM
Talk about living in fantasy land. what kinds of “torture” would they be? Torture, by definition, is traumatic and psychologically injurious. Cripes, wading through the levels of fantasy and denial is a full-time job!
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:39 PM
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Fins, everyone is hanging on your every post to tell us what alternative you have that’s an effective tool to get information. Come on!
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:41 PM
There’s really no proof of that.
Eh, you know how it goes. Liberals can say whatever they want.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Grow Fins on April 21, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Come on you farking genius. Tell us what you’d do to protect your fellow countrymen from the likes of KSM?
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:43 PM
For the 20th time
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:44 PM
THUS Waterboarding is NOT TORTURE!
Compare/contrast KSM to John McCain. For some strange reason, John McCain cannot raise his arms above his head. Why is that?
Kai on April 21, 2009 at 4:44 PM
Oh… I don’t know… make em stay in a room for 10 hours with my Ex Wife? Now THAT would be torture… I’d rather be waterboarded again.
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 4:45 PM
Still waiting Grow Fins….
Lots of us are asking and you’re not answering….
Scrappy on April 21, 2009 at 4:45 PM
Come on hawk,
He and his ilk will continue to take the high-road even as it is being littered with his countrymen and his family.
thomasaur on April 21, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Obvious troll finds unexpected problems.
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:46 PM
3:42 I asked you: Explain those “alternatives” and be specific.
I repeated the question at 4:18.
Others have posed the same question to you. Until you answer that question, you are irrelevant.
Conservative_SAHM on April 21, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Excellent points; we’re not fighting a conventional war or enemy, therefore it requires us to take a different tact. Besides, as you mentioned most regular soldiers (fighting under the flag or wearing the uniform of a recognized nation) aren’t planning or know of plans to suicide bombings of civilians, etc. and having the capabilities and freedom to use whatever techniques needed to protect our republic and its people without fear of being prosecuted is essential!
Those that don’t think so are ignorant and I doubt they wouldn’t hold those same opinions had it been their loved ones incinerated or used as human missiles on 9-11!!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 4:47 PM
/crickets/
Scrappy on April 21, 2009 at 4:47 PM
The ex-wife references always brighten my day.
thomasaur on April 21, 2009 at 4:48 PM
I think this will lead to simply shooting them.
AnninCA on April 21, 2009 at 4:49 PM
He doesn’t have an answer.
Esthier on April 21, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Folks, stop engaging this little queer. He is stupid, ill-informed, incapable of supporting an argument, and stupid.
Oops, I said stupid twice.
Of course, the interrogations were neither torture, nor illegal, and very specifically prevented further terrorism. Don’t feed the pondscum liberals here.
Jaibones on April 21, 2009 at 4:51 PM
No doubt this is to distract the O’bama college kid crowd’s 5-second attention span attention away from his absolute and utter failure to fix the economy.
It’s an O’bama Depression now.
Del Dolemonte on April 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM
One would certainly hope so. This probably won’t bother the handwringing lefties nearly as much as Democrat Talking Points about “torture”.
Jaibones on April 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM
It’s pretty obvious what the left’s solution is. They will give the terrorists lawyers and rights and twitter accounts. The terrorists will realize much like the grinch, that even if you steal all of the presents and decorations that Christmas still comes. The tiny little terrorist hearts will grow three sizes as they come to embrace all the libs in libville.
rw on April 21, 2009 at 4:52 PM
Oh, for the love of Pete…
I get home from work at 4. I’m tired. I’m ready to check out Hot Air, as I always do. I click on a thread. There, at the top of the third page of the thread, is getalife. I click on another one – there he is again. And another.
Where in the h3ll did all of these trolls come from? I don’t even get a chance to voice an opinion on the actual topic – there’s already a raging feud in progress, long before I get there.
I’m starting to think the management is letting this happen for “entertainment value”.
uncivilized on April 21, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Liberals will be the end of the greatest nation that ever existed simply because they believe it not to be.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 4:53 PM
LOL…. yeah, I was amazed that we made it almost three pages into a torture thread before that perfectly valid and rational correlation was made…
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Interesting that the “torture” issue has come up at the same time Geithner is to testify to the whereabouts of misused TARP funds.
Conservative_SAHM on April 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Yep, keep deflecting from the questions grow-a-brain, it only proves you have nothing to back up your stale and moldy lefty memes, perhaps you should call your dear leaders hotline and get some new ones!
CAN’T SAY AS I BLAME YOU THOUGH, AT LEAST YOU’RE SMART ENOUGH TO AVOID AN INTELLECTUAL GUNFIGHT WHEN ARMED ONLY WITH THE INTELLECT OF A DULL KNIFE!
AM I SHOUTING LOUD ENOUGH FOR YOU NOW GROW-A-BRAIN!!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Or more renditions. Obama has said he doesn’t have a problem with that. Doesn’t want to have anything to do with anything that his lefty supporters might consider over the line, but he’ll take the fruits of torture is some other country does it. THAT is weak.
ProfessorMiao on April 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Look at the “Falling Man,” and talk to me about waterboarding!!!!
Ya’ f*ckin’ schleps!
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:55 PM
And some chick today in class talked about how we create more terrorists with waterboarding
unreal
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 4:56 PM
If only Hollywood would have been leveled instead of the World Trade Centers! I can only dream!
txag92 on April 21, 2009 at 5:04 PM
Spot on blatantblue, yet the left cannot understand the difference and IMHO it’s because their moral compass is broken due to all the feel good 60′s koom-baya BS their parents filled their heads with.
because of this they do not have the ability to tell good from bad, something one of their heroes (Darwin) would tell them is dangerous for their long term survival as any creature that cannot tell good from bad (e.g., safety from danger) will not survive long as a species!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Which doesn’t make much sense. Cause if water boarding was so evil and horrible, you would think less people would want the chance of that happening to them.
MDWNJ on April 21, 2009 at 5:06 PM
So did you ask her if AQ was using the potential of imitation drowning as a recuiting promise.
thomasaur on April 21, 2009 at 5:06 PM
they are so lost. I often pity them.
they don’t understand we do what we do to save innocent lives, and that they do what they do to kill innocent people. but they dont bother to consider intent.
they dont bother to consider anything.
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Let’s be clear – the trolls here are more than happy to eschew waterboarding when it may cost the lives of other Americans. I don’t see any of them offering to sacrifice themselves to maintain their “moral superiority”.
These trolls are Democrats. They don’t join the military or otherwise serve anyone but themselves.
commenter on April 21, 2009 at 5:08 PM
The Left would rather we all forget that a Clinton-appointed Federal Judge in that very court ruled in a lawsuit brought by the family members of 9/11 victims that the Government of Iraq was in fact involved in the 9/11 attacks. Ruling date was May 2003, Judge was Harold Baer.
Del Dolemonte on April 21, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Wow, getalife’s baby brother showed up.
Better put some ice on that, kiddo, you’re taking a beating.
Del Dolemonte on April 21, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Not to hammer a meme… but she is DEFINATLY some guys future EX WIFE!
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 5:10 PM
well i have a whole narrative on my page, but i dont want to be a link whore. a lot of people said a lot of dumb shi’ite, so i dont want to go on forever about each person
anyway, they had this argument that “oh, well now that we do it, theyre going to treat americans badly when they capture them.” like they already didnt treat people horribly over the decades?
she said that these detainees would go back to their countries and tell everyone about the horrible american treatment. yes. gossip will abound in yemen, or something. how ridiculous.
yes these detainees will go tell millions of people about their treatment. idk, but doesnt that sound ridiculous?
unfortunately i did not, but i will next time. thats actually a really good point
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Grow Fins,
You don’t know what you are talking about. You are just farting the lefties line of ignorant sh*t.
Water boarding is not torture. You want to see real torture give me one of those goat humpers for 48 hours, I’ll show you how we did it back in the day.
You assclowns on the left don’t know a damn thing about what it takes to protect this country and the way you people and Bullwinkle Obama are going, a lot of people are going to die because of the way you people think.
Old Hippie Vet on April 21, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Torture never works
Waterboarding works
Ergo, waterboarding is not torture.
Of course, Andrew Sullivan just made up a new definition for torture: torture ALWAYS, by definition, works. (Link goes to Tom Maguire)
daryl_herbert on April 21, 2009 at 5:12 PM
the better arguement….
If torturing your enemy causes more of that enemy to be recruited… then..
With all the REAL torture and beheadings of the Islamic Jihadists, why is not the entire world agains them?
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 5:15 PM
When you talk to you classmate again, remind her they only keep us prisoners for as long as it takes to torture us a while and then either cap us in our heads or cut our bodies apart. What the terrorists have succeeded in is to convince us to not be taken prisoner. Ask her if she thinks it’s just chance that so few of us ever are taken captive. American Soldiers have fought to the death to avoid capture by these animals.
hawkdriver on April 21, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Hey, what choice did they have? It was either that or be burned alive.
And let’s not forget those elementary school kids on some of the hijacked planes-many of them were being rewarded by the National Geographic Society for their curiousity of the world around them that was scheduled to take place in California. That curiousity resulted in their being turned into human missiles.
Their killers had no problem taking their young lives. To me, that defines torture.
A question to our totally unenlightened Leftists posting on this thread-when, not if, we are hit again, will you blame O’bama for not preventing the attacks?
Oh, that’s right. They will be Bush and Cheney’s fault.
Del Dolemonte on April 21, 2009 at 5:18 PM
They act like our interrogators are just arbitrarily torturing. It’s all a mental game.
Zubaydah related his experience to the Red Cross, and talked about how once he cooperated, the cold, the nudity, the hunger — it went away.
It’s all a mental game — not torture.
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:18 PM
I had forgotten about those children on that trip.
That just breaks my heart
And these animals, these dirty kalab have liberal defenders!
It’s enough to make one punch a lib
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:21 PM
oh well
the trolls are gone
g’day
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:23 PM
Yep. Either their shift has ended or Soro’s hasn’t given them the “alternatives” memo yet and they need more time.
Conservative_SAHM on April 21, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Time to trot this oldie out…
Del Dolemonte on April 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM
LOL I love it
I wonder who has the graveyard shift
blatantblue on April 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM
The very fact that this has become a partisan issue tells you everything you need to know about how concerned Barack Obama and his demented little fan club are.
Are they concerned about rendition? No. Do they want to prosecute Clinton administration officials for torture suffered by people they handed over to other countries? No. As long as they can sanctimoniously claim clean hands, they are fine with it.
These men were not damaged, they were not blinded or crippled or scarred. In fact most of them are downright proud of the murders they committed and would like to commit some more. They have lawyers, socalled human rights activists hovering over them, Democrats tut tutting at their treatment and the international community outraged at what the poor terrorists suffered.
The CIA did what they were supposed to do, to protect the US from another attack. Maybe their critics should work harder at coming with alternatives that actually work.
Terrye on April 21, 2009 at 5:31 PM
Na, there is a buy one get one free at Starbucks for 1 hour only.
Old Hippie Vet on April 21, 2009 at 5:32 PM
DElDolemonte:
I doubt if McCain would have said any such thing.
Terrye on April 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THAT LINK… Does of reality. Puts this pantywaist pissing match debate about what torture is into perspective.
gatorboy on April 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Heh, when it comes to get-a-clue it wouldn’t surprise me if grow-a-brain was really his mother fighting his battles for him still!
As for needing some ice; considering the severe beating he’s taken on this thread I think he/she/it is in need of a level 3 trauma unit as he/she/it has been bloodied and battered, but that’s what happens when you jump into a gun fight armed with only a dull knife!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Hey Old Hippie Vet, how’s it hangin?
Er, uh, on second thought don’t tell me….hehe!
Liberty or Death on April 21, 2009 at 5:35 PM
somebody shave this jerk and please use a dull blade.
wade underhile on April 21, 2009 at 5:38 PM
Sgt. Tim thinks:
Is that really the level that conservatism has shrunk to? As a conservative, I certainly hope not. This kind of Nazi-like thinking seems alien to me. I do not think Ronald Reagan felt this way. I know Winston Churchill didn’t.
I am prepared to accept that “aggressive interrogations” work. That’s why dictatorial regimes have always resorted to them in the past. I am sure that they prevented attacks and probably saved lives. That is still not a justification for using immoral tactics in my opinion even though I accept that the Bush administration attempted to follow very strict guidelines to avoid crossing the line. (“What line?” I can hear Sgt. Tim asking…)
If saving American lives is the ONLY criteria worth considering then why did the US bother invading Iraq and losing 4,000+ soldiers doing it? Why not just carpet bomb Iraq with napalm until they surrendered?
Many posters here compare the barbaric tactics of Al Qaeda and point out that the CIA interrogations were a walk in the park compared to some of the stuff that the enemy does. Conceded. Is being morally better than Al Qaeda really a good enough criteria for you though? Does it not worry you that of all your (democratic) allies in the War on Terror not a single one resorted to such tactics. Is being the least bad torturing nation good enough for you?
TrueNorth on April 21, 2009 at 5:38 PM
I think we need a sense of proportionality. Is the death of even one person too high a price to pay for refusing to employ an effective but terrifying investigative technique?
I say yes and that those who insist that the risk of death to hundreds or even thousands is the price we must pay are moral cowards with confused values.
Basilsbest on April 21, 2009 at 5:43 PM
IMO the only person who should be able to authorize torture is the President, and he should immediatly sign a Pardon for all of those who carry out his order.
This is a very imperfect world, and sometimes, we need to do really mean and nasty things in order to survive…
The problem with this whole thing is that everyone is argueing over legalities… when some of what we need to do should NOT be legal, except in very limited circumstances…
This would still put fear into our enemies… as they would never know if the President WOULD make such an order… and would also cover those who are carrying out orders for the good of the country….
Romeo13 on April 21, 2009 at 5:47 PM
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