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Ninth Circuit: Second Amendment also protects gun owners from state law

posted at 4:12 pm on April 20, 2009 by Allahpundit
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Big news for constitutional law junkies, not so big for gun owners. We’re dealing here with the doctrine of “incorporation,” the notion that some — but not all — of the rights in the Bill of Rights protect people not only from the federal government but from their state governments, too. That wasn’t the case until the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, thereby “incorporating” certain federal constitutional rights to the state level; ever since, courts have agonized over deciding which rights are sufficiently “fundamental” as to qualify for incorporation. Why not just say that the entire Bill of Rights was incorporated instead of picking and choosing from it? Don’t ask. The whole subject’s a major clusterfark.

Per the Ninth Circuit, as of today, the Second Amendment is officially “fundamental” on the west coast. No surprise there, even with two Democratic appointees on the three-judge panel: On the very day that the Supreme Court decided the Heller case, I told you it was a fait accompli that the Second Amendment would end up being incorporated. The whole logic of the Heller opinion was that gun ownership is an important safeguard of liberty and deeply rooted in American history; if that’s not “fundamental,” nothing is. The real question is how much this matters in practical terms. Answer: Not much, as TNR predicted more than a year ago when the Court was hearing oral arguments in the Heller case.

For all but the hardest-core gun lovers, prudence and public safety ultimately limit libertarianism–and the justices don’t seem inclined to dive off a cliff and read the amendment so as to permit individual ownership of upper-end military hardware. That seemed almost as clear at arguments as the court’s direction on the question of whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right. A lawyer for those challenging the ban acknowledged, for example, that “of course” background checks for firearms purchases would be constitutional. Justice Antonin Scalia told Solicitor General Paul Clement, “I don’t see why” the federal government would “have a problem” sustaining its ban on machine guns if D.C.’s handgun ban fell. All sides appeared comfortable with the idea that criminals would not receive protection from the amendment. Outside of Washington D.C., in other words, a revitalized Second Amendment would largely forbid what nobody was seriously contemplating anyway: bans on common weapons for the recreational and self-protective uses of law-abiding people.

Even Scalia didn’t imagine a Second Amendment right to bear machine guns. Which brings us to today’s ruling, the most amazing detail of which isn’t the incorporation finding but the fact that, as Ace notes, the Ninth Circuit ended up upholding the gun regulation. The money bit, from page 4497 of the opinion:

Heller tells us that the Second Amendment’s guarantee revolves around armed self-defense. If laws make such self-defense impossible in the most crucial place — the home — by rendering firearms useless, then they violate the Constitution.

But the Ordinance before us is not of that ilk. It does not directly impede the efficacy of self-defense or limit self-defense in the home. Rather, it regulates gun possession in public places that are County property…

The Nordykes argue that the Ordinance is overbroad because it covers more than such sensitive places. They list the areas covered: “open space venues, such as County-owned parks, recreational areas, historic sites, parking lots of public buildings . . . and the County fairgrounds.” The only one of these that seems odd as a “sensitive place” is parking lots. The rest are gathering places where high numbers of people might congregate. That is presumably why they are called “open space venues.” Indeed, the fairgrounds itself hosts numerous public and private events throughout the year, which a large number of people presumably attend; again, the Nordykes’ gun shows routinely attracted about 4,000 people. Although Heller does not provide much guidance, the open, public spaces the County’s Ordinance covers fit comfortably within the same category as schools and government buildings.

Translation: You may have a Second Amendment right to defend your home but you have no Second Amendment right to concealed carry, especially in densely populated “sensitive places.” In fact, one of the Democratic judges wrote a separate opinion today specifically to emphasize that “important governmental interests will justify reasonable regulation of rifles and handguns, and the problem for our courts will be to define, in the context of particular regulation by the states and municipalities, what is reasonable and permissible and what is unreasonable and offensive to the Second Amendment.” The legal question going forward is how broadly courts will interpret the “sensitive places” exception; given the number of lefty judges we’re in store for from The One, I’m guessing darned broadly. All of which means that we’re trending towards a narrow understanding of the Second Amendment that limits gun rights to handguns inside the home (and conceivably a limit on how many you can own?). That’s better than nothing, but not much better.


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Comment pages: 1 2

When legality trumps morality, you get clusterfarks.

spmat on April 20, 2009 at 4:16 PM

From the Ninth????

Now that is news.

MarkTheGreat on April 20, 2009 at 4:16 PM

The same 9th Jerk-It Court of Schlemeils?

What the fu-hell???

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 20, 2009 at 4:18 PM

Flaming skull at Aces!!!!111111!!!!
Mushroom cloud at Hot Air!!!!111!!!
Siren at Drudge with RED headlines!!!!11!
Exploding heads at LGF!!!111!!!!

carbon_footprint on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Hey guys,
I was looking at a Springfield Armory 45XD at lunch today. Price around 5 Bennies; just not sure about a made in Croatia firearm.

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

How, oh how, can Obama undo this? Inquiring minds would like to know.

savvydude on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

On the very day that the Supreme Court decided the Heller case, I told you it was a fait accompli that the Second Amendment would end up being incorporated.

Props.

That’s better than nothing, but not much better.

I think undecided is better in this case, but point taken. Pity though we don’t have a greater focus on the actual words: keep, bear, infringe. This decisions seem to me to revolve around ‘keep’ and relegate the 2nd to that one word.

Spirit of 1776 on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

So…if leaving Neiman-Marcus at the mall, and witnessed a gang of yute’s beating the hell out of an elderly woman at gun point in the parking lot, a few cars over from mine, as they tried to pry her purse from her feeble hands, and I had a conceal carry permit, I could not intervene under the narrow confines of this ruling?

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

“important governmental interests will justify reasonable regulation of rifles and handguns,

.
There’s that word again. It really just leaves it wide open doesn’t it?

ronsfi on April 20, 2009 at 4:20 PM

i believe it is more properly termed a fustercluck.

blatantblue on April 20, 2009 at 4:20 PM

i believe it is more properly termed a fustercluck.

I like the freshly coined BUBAR.

Spirit of 1776 on April 20, 2009 at 4:21 PM

Until this works its way through en banc, where it likely has a ghost of a chance, and gets picked up by the Supreme Court, it won’t mean much. Even if the SCOTUS upholds it, it really won’t lay any more weight to arguments against federal gun regs.

Now, if this is taken as an endorsement of actions like Montana took here last week, then it has real potential. That’s up to the states, though.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Ah…. so you have the RIGHT to Keep Arms… but can only Bear them at home?

How do they make that disconnect, when it implicitl;y states we have the Right to BEAR Arms…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Hey guys,
I was looking at a Springfield Armory 45XD at lunch today. Price around 5 Bennies; just not sure about a made in Croatia firearm.

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

XDs are on par with Glocks. Fine pistols. I suggest trying one out before you buy, though.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:23 PM

“important governmental interests will justify reasonable regulation of rifles and handguns, and the problem for our courts will be to define, in the context of particular regulation by the states and municipalities, what is reasonable and permissible and what is unreasonable and offensive to the Second Amendment.”

So vague…

Like you say, better than nothing, but I’m not going to get too excited until I see what gets defined as ‘unreasonable’.

BadgerHawk on April 20, 2009 at 4:23 PM

No I surprisingly read this a different way. The 9th circuit, the most liberal appeals court in the land just said that state vs federal in the realm of the 2nd amendment should stand. The only difference is that if the state says that you should not be able to carry conceal in certain places, then you are not allowed to. So what? The main gist is that the 2nd amendment is constitutional and we should be happy about that. Remember, this is the 9th we are talking about here. If they say it is okay then we don’t have too much to worry about for at least awhile.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 20, 2009 at 4:26 PM

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Buy Kimber

blatantblue on April 20, 2009 at 4:27 PM

XDs are very good. I got a 40XD for almost a year and put a lot of rounds through it and haven’t had a single problem.

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:27 PM

This is the result of when SCOTUS Justices take into their own minds a clear and simply written amendment and create a complex and easy to pervert finding.

Speakup on April 20, 2009 at 4:28 PM

No offense to the gun-rights crowd, to which I belong, but the Second Amendment absolutely does not prohibit State governments from regulating firearms in any way. It’s a legislative matter for the voters to decide through their elected officials.

The incorporation of the Second Amendment, as with the rest of the Bill of Rights, results in the absurdity of courts determining policy questions better left to a legislative body, which is more sensitive to the needs of a society. Of course the Ninth Circus decided to incorporate the amendment–as AP points out, it makes very little difference practically speaking–because this shifts more power to the point-nosed elitists of the federal judiciary.

If anyone here at Hot Air seriously thinks this is a victory for individual liberty, you deserve to have your fingers placed in a Chinese finger-trap so you can never submit a comment again. This is a judicial power grab, plain and simple–it matters not whether the issue is abortion or gun rights, the will of the people yields to the will of Harvard Law.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

I tried Google Translate on this post, but to no avail.

Aristotle on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

If I am interpeting AP’s summary correctly, your CCW may not even be valid depending on who owns the parking lot and if carry is prohibited. I think that is the narrowing of definition to which he is referring.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Footnote 19 could use some explainin’

I gather that they mean ‘reasonableness’ is the standard of review for all 2nd Amendment cases. Which isn’t much of a standard, if at all.

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

I guess it is good that I can have guns. But HTH am I suppose to go hunting if I can’t carry them into my truck to take them to go out and get that moose?

This arguement is nothing but fodder!

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:30 PM

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Yes, I agree.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:30 PM

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

In effect, I am limited in exercising my Second Amendment guarantees to my own home. For now.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

I’m still trying to find the phrase “governmental interest” in the constitution. It must be there because the courts have decided that this “governmental interest” trumps just about all the bill of rights.

MarkTheGreat on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Don’t forget the nunchakus! The petition in Maloney v. Cuomo (Second Circuit case decided January 28, 2009) is due in a week or so.

I believe nunchakus qualify as “arms” for Second Amendment purposes. After all, in 1789, the America still had a substantial pirate problem, and what better way to defeat pirates than with ninjas? The ninjas would have needed their nunchukus to defeat said pirates, so obviously nunchukus must have been in any well-stocked arsenal of the day.

CultureWar on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Ah…. so you have the RIGHT to Keep Arms… but can only Bear them at home?

How do they make that disconnect, when it implicitl;y states we have the Right to BEAR Arms…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 4:22 PM

Yes. This is what the 9th stated. That we have the right to bear arms. This is a win for us, especially coming from the notoriously liberal appeals court. Now if the state restricts the firearm issue then that is what the court dictates. In other words, if California says that you can’t carry a gun into a bank or restaurant then you can’t. It’s better than the Feds saying we can’t. In this day and age, take a victory where you can get it. If you think that a state is going to make gun laws more draconinian, then move.

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Hey guys,
I was looking at a Springfield Armory 45XD at lunch today. Price around 5 Bennies; just not sure about a made in Croatia firearm.

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

That piece is a very good one. Get it before you can’t.

old trooper2 on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Ah…. so you have the RIGHT to Keep Arms… but can only Bear them at home?

How do they make that disconnect, when it implicitl;y states we have the Right to BEAR Arms…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 4:22 PM

+1

toliver on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

nail meet hammer.

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

The Second Amendment is more than just keep and bear arms, though.

It is a safe guard against a tyrannical government.

Sir Napsalot on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

The 14th Amendment needs to be repealed and, at most, replaced with some more narrow language that states that States shall not infringe on specified rights (not reference the constitution).

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Of course the Ninth Circus decided to incorporate the amendment–as AP points out, it makes very little difference practically speaking–because this shifts more power to the point-nosed elitists of the federal judiciary.

This was going to happen under a minimalist court or the 9th circus, it was just a matter of time after Heller. And most of us agree Heller was a good case for gun rights.

The troubling thing is not federal judges, but the standard of review that may or may not become the law of the land.

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Like you say, better than nothing, but I’m not going to get too excited until I see what gets defined as ‘unreasonable’.

BadgerHawk on April 20, 2009 at 4:23 PM

It’s not better than nothing. The various federal courts have a long and undistinguished history of writing majority opinions for one side with the express purpose of turning it into the minority opinion down the road.

Given that this is the ninth circus, I can almost guarantee that was the point of this opinion.

spmat on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

With the advent of Socialism and Socialists in our public schools, just as Americans have now embraced Socialism, they will also embrace the disarmament that Socialism demands.

The schoolchildren have been indoctrinated, and they are now voters. They want Socialism.

And, inasmuch as the State abhors an armed populous, it will only follow that, with the next few generations of indoctrinated, Socialist schoolchildren, the right to bear arms will be eliminated, by popular demand.

OhEssYouCowboys on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

If I am interpeting AP’s summary correctly, your CCW may not even be valid depending on who owns the parking lot and if carry is prohibited.

No no. If your state government passes a law granting CCW rights, that’s the law. The Second Amendment simply sets a baseline of liberty; a state government can exceed that baseline if it wants, but can’t limit it. E.g., your state *cannot* ban possession of handguns in the home thanks to the Heller decision. But it might be able to ban guns everywhere else — if it wants to. If it doesn’t, great!

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

In effect, I am limited in exercising my Second Amendment guarantees to my own home. For now.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

I think it effects more then people realize.

Hunting guns and rifles would be part of this. I would not be able to go hunting due to transportation of said guns in vehcile as I cover them with a blanket due to “eyes” that like to look in vehicles.

This ruling doesn’t do anything for people like myself, orpeople like you.

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Hey guys,
I was looking at a Springfield Armory 45XD at lunch today. Price around 5 Bennies; just not sure about a made in Croatia firearm.

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

I bought a XDM .40 earlier this year. Durned fine pistol. Accurate, 16+1 capacity, (I think 14+1 for the .45) three different backstraps for different size hands, comes with two spare mags, mag loader, CC holster (right hand only, such is my luck), mag holster, lock, and a good case. Bought mine on gunbroker.com from a guy in AR for $439, shipping and all. Easy disassemble, supposed to be reliable as can be.

bikermailman on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

In effect, I am limited in exercising my Second Amendment guarantees to my own home. For now.

That’s the only place where you have an absolute constitutional right, yes. But if your state wants to expand that right to other places, go for it.

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 4:33 PM

So what’s the point of state constitutions then? It is a clusterfark, but it’s better than no 14th and what you propose.

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

It is a safe guard against a tyrannical government.

Sir Napsalot on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

That, sir, is the underlying belief of the Left…they wish no one to have the ability to challenge the government…unless of course, it is that evil Bush..and now, that evil Tea Party cabal of FoxNews.

It isn’t about public safety, though, over the years, they have couched their arguments around this rubric. It is indeed all about limiting the ability of the citizenry to oppose the government.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

/threadwin

spmat on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Allah, quicky question. NY isn’t allowed to have guns unless you go thru multiple classes and have a special license (in the City). How does that work with Hunting Rifles?

Just curious… if you don’t know that is ok too.

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

I’m still trying to find the phrase “governmental interest” in the constitution. It must be there because the courts have decided that this “governmental interest” trumps just about all the bill of rights.

MarkTheGreat on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

Except when it came to criminalizing sodomy, SCOTUS decided that the States have no legitimate government interest in doing so. Ditto the Iowa Supreme Court when it took the initiative to enact gay marriage into law.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:38 PM

to me that the court even tries to define the “Right” is the very definition of “shall not infringe”

“the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Kaptain Amerika on April 20, 2009 at 4:39 PM

Ehh… I read this the other way… if they had found that there was a constitutional right to conceal carry then the government can’t stop people from bringing guns into court houses at ANY time.

I think that’s an example of fair use of government restriction. (Much like there’s a first amendment restriction of yelling “FIRE” in a crowded theater).

Although AP’s right that it all depends on how broad this “loophole” gets interpreted and whether or not this “right” turns into the equivalent of cigarette smoking…

Skywise on April 20, 2009 at 4:39 PM

Limiting the definition of “arms” to mean something like “less lethal/scary than machine guns” is complete bullpuckey. “Arms” is properly defined as a very broad term.

OhioCoastie on April 20, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Translation: You may have a Second Amendment right to defend your home but you have no Second Amendment right to concealed carry, especially in densely populated “sensitive places.”

I don’t know if you all are familiar with this, but this video is an extraordinarily powerful rebuttal to those who would forbid concealed carry.

Buy Danish on April 20, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Oh, and mounted a sweet flashlight/laser combo on the rail under the barrel. :D

bikermailman on April 20, 2009 at 4:40 PM

“…unless of course, it is that evil Bush..and now, that evil Tea Party cabal of FoxNews.”

[Mangled that puppy...on the phone trying to get the BGSU Campus Republicans off the dime about advertising guest speakers. Which they are doing a lousy job of....]

Meant to say, “unless of course, it is the Left and their anarchy-driven friends who are against that evil Bush..and now, that evil Tea Party cabal of FoxNews.”

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Main Entry:
in·fringe·ment Listen to the pronunciation of infringement
Pronunciation:
\in-ˈfrinj-mənt\
Function:
noun
Date:
1628

1 : the act of infringing : violation
2 : an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infringement

Kaptain Amerika on April 20, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Ehh… I read this the other way… if they had found that there was a constitutional right to conceal carry then the government can’t stop people from bringing guns into court houses at ANY time.

Yeah, they were never going to find an absolute right to concealed carry, but they certainly could have read the “sensitive places” exception more narrowly. Everyone would admit that a courtroom is sensitive. Is a parking lot?

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM

FlyoverJ-HawkFan on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Over analyzing what should be a very simple proposition.

Constitution says we have the RIGHT to Keep and BEAR arms.

14th says STATES must abide by the Consitutiton…

Thus, we have the RIGHT to KEEP and BEAR arms anywhere in these United States.

If a Private Landowner wishes no guns on his property, he is well within his rights to POST somthing saying no guns… but here we are also talking about PUBLIC Lands…. lands owned by the various Governments (Towns, Counties, States and Fed Lands).

It seems pretty clear that, as written, I have the RIGHT to Bear arms on any public owned place…

If’n you don’t like the Consitutiton, then CHANGE it… don’t ignore what it pretty darn implicitly states.

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM

i think SIG’s are the best handguns… but hey what do i know… SIG 40cal is what i got tho :) 12 round clip police issued (used)

Donut on April 20, 2009 at 4:43 PM

That’s the only place where you have an absolute constitutional right, yes. But if your state wants to expand that right to other places, go for it.

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Doesn’t apply if you’re in your car, though.

The thing is, the amendment explicitly protects not only the right to keep, but to bear arms. Has there ever been a major opinion on the scope of the area where bearing is limited to?

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:43 PM

This is code-speak for Barry that he needs to modify that pesky ‘living document’ before taking the guns.

cntrlfrk on April 20, 2009 at 4:43 PM

This is a judicial power grab, plain and simple–it matters not whether the issue is abortion or gun rights, the will of the people yields to the will of Harvard Law.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Yes, and that is what we expect from the Ninth Circus.

AP was insightful when the Heller ruling was announced.

Right_of_Attila on April 20, 2009 at 4:44 PM

i think SIG’s are the best handguns… but hey what do i know… SIG 40cal is what i got tho :) 12 round clip police issued (used)

Donut on April 20, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Great pistols, but they only really stand out if you’re using 357 SIG rounds. Sauers are little honeys.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:45 PM

The Second Amendment is more than just keep and bear arms, though.

It is a safe guard against a tyrannical government.

Sir Napsalot on April 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM

+1

This is the part that the Regressives and Activist judges always conveniently overlook. How can the people resist tyrants if their arms have been taken from them? Alexander Hamilton referred to this as a “Lockean Right of Revolution.”

CultureWar on April 20, 2009 at 4:45 PM

Something I’ve been curious about, anyone with knowledge of Texas laws, would love some help. You’re allowed to carry a pistol in your vehicle while traveling; allowed to carry a long rifle or shotgun, so long as it’s not being brandished. Does carrying one on a motorcycle, while traveling count as the same? I’ve been wondering, haven’t done it yet, til I get my CCL.

bikermailman on April 20, 2009 at 4:45 PM

Doesn’t apply if you’re in your car, though.

The thing is, the amendment explicitly protects not only the right to keep, but to bear arms. Has there ever been a major opinion on the scope of the area where bearing is limited to?

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Mad that would depend. If you are a normal person with nothing on a record… it shouldn’t amount to you at all. If you are someone who has a record… the cops will search the vehicle depending on the record and will get you for having a firearm.

But remember.. we are now all “terrorists” in the eys of our Government!

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Skywise on April 20, 2009 at 4:39 PM

But, in entering any controlled space, a court house, or a military facility, for example, the fact of entering that facility indicates a willingness to abide by the rules of that facility. Don’t like the rules? Don’t go in.

However, public/open spaces…that’s where this ruling gets everything muddy. Anything outside my front door can be construed as a public/open space, directly or indirectly…and if I cannot carry my gun to the car, parked on the street, put it in the trunk, and drive to a gun dealer shop to have it repaired, because I will have to walk across a public street, and through a public parking lot…and I get mugged along the way…the picture gets damn muddy and fast.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:46 PM

I can’t seem to find any NRA statement on this.

But yeah…9th Circuit Court, big surprise.

Our forefathers are beginning to turn over in their graves.

JetBoy on April 20, 2009 at 4:47 PM

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

State constiutions allow group of people to decide what rights they want to relinquish to their State government. Until the 14th Amendment and incorporation, I believe it was understood that the amendments implied that the federal government would not make any laws that would infringe on the rights in the second amendment. There was no so protection that State could infringe on them.

With regard to the 2nd Amendment. My ideal solution\situation is:
- Federal courts insure that the federal government makes no law infringing on the right to bear arms,
- 14th amendment and incorporation are gone.
- States have a 2nd Amendment in their constitution.

To me, support for incorporation is a green light for the group in power to take away the rights of the group that is not in power.

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 4:47 PM

bikermailman on April 20, 2009 at 4:45 PM

biker I think I remember (as a friend in TX told me) you have to have it in a riding bag. As to not scare the public.

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:47 PM

The 14th Amendment needs to be repealed and, at most, replaced with some more narrow language that states that States shall not infringe on specified rights (not reference the constitution).

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Yes, I agree that whatever limitations imposed on the States must be expressly written, as you seem to propose doing. Good luck repealing the 14th, though. I say we nuke Article III–no more federal judiciary.

So what’s the point of state constitutions then? It is a clusterfark, but it’s better than no 14th and what you propose.

Free Constitution on April 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Again, we need not repeal the 14th. Rather, let’s stop permitting SCOTUS and the lesser federal judges to invent & impose restrictions upon the States when they simply don’t exist anywhere in the text.

At the same time, I would encourage everyone to lobby your respective State governments and seek a more firearm-friendly set of laws.

In effect, I am limited in exercising my Second Amendment guarantees to my own home. For now.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:31 PM

The good news, coldwarrior, is that ACORN may be willing to guarantee your right to own the home in which you’re allowed to bear arms.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:48 PM

Ninth Circuit: Second Amendment also protects gun owners from state law

The simple wording of the Second Amendment, amazes me as to how our courts, with it’s confounded judges, have spent thousands upon thousands of wasted hours, and millions of pages on opinions, for just TWENTY SEVEN WORDS… that a fifth grade student can read, and understand in a few minutes:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. 27 words!!!

byteshredder on April 20, 2009 at 4:49 PM

But remember.. we are now all “terrorists” in the eys of our Government!

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Death to the Great Satan!

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 4:49 PM

E.g., your state *cannot* ban possession of handguns in the home thanks to the Heller decision. But it might be able to ban guns everywhere else — if it wants to. If it doesn’t, great!

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:35 PM

Yes, that’s the point I was trying to make. Neither state or fed can invalidate home ownership but state could make coldwarrior’s CCW invalid in a mall parking lot, depending on lot ownership and policy. Could federal law overide state in determining where CCWs are invalid, unless federally owned land is involved? Has that been tested legally?

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:49 PM

It’s ironic. I just today lost interest in any of my weapons of the desire to shoot them.

hawkdriver on April 20, 2009 at 4:53 PM

Yeah, they were never going to find an absolute right to concealed carry, but they certainly could have read the “sensitive places” exception more narrowly. Everyone would admit that a courtroom is sensitive. Is a parking lot?

Allahpundit on April 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:46 PM

No argument. Like I said, it turns into the “no smoking” rule. Where it used to be, not in public buildings and in some states is now no public PLACES (including outdoor parks).

I don’t think they could adequately define where the line is after “no absolute rights”.

IE, which is greater… the rights of a bar owner to ban guns on his property or the right to conceal carry?

That’s an argument rightfully left to the states.

Skywise on April 20, 2009 at 4:55 PM

When legality trumps morality, you get clusterfarks.

You mean law should be “breathing”, but the breath should be moral.

radiofreevillage on April 20, 2009 at 4:57 PM

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Yes. Another muddy area is carrying in areas like malls which have a company policy against it, but the current penalty is simply being asked to leave, as opposed to having charges filed as a legal matter. Many folks I know, with carry permits, do carry in malls simply because they are now aware that’s a popular hunting ground for whackos.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:59 PM

With regard to the 2nd Amendment. My ideal solution\situation is:
- Federal courts insure that the federal government makes no law infringing on the right to bear arms,
- 14th amendment and incorporation are gone.
- States have a 2nd Amendment in their constitution.
WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 4:47 PM

I’m with you except to the extent you advocate for a state-level Second Amendment. Obviously, citizens cannot be guaranteed the unfettered right to certain weapons. No such “right” was envisioned when the federal-level Second Amendment was enacted, only a right vis-a-vis the federal government.

The problem is, constitutional provisions can rarely draw a bright line on these types of issues. Rather, the legislative branch must be permitted some flexibility to protect societal interests. If you propose a state constitutional amendment, it must either be so well-drafted that it can serve as a bright line, or it must shape the outer bounds of what the legislature can do. The Second Amendment to the federal constitution would not perform either function if placed within a state’s constitutional framework because it draws the outer boundary too far in one direction if applied to State laws.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:59 PM

systematically chipping away. Chipping away.

marklmail on April 20, 2009 at 5:00 PM

Skywise on April 20, 2009 at 4:55 PM

In this municipality, I cannot smoke in my yard. Inside my home, yes, but not outside.

I can grill food, and have one of those firepits on my patio, but smoke? That gets a citation and a fine.

Why? Courts have ruled, and legislators and the local city council have ruled, that outside is public space to be regulated/controlled by the public…i.e., government.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:00 PM

Obama is on very thin ice here. There is exploding anger among the gunowning grassroots for Obama’s decision to maintain the ban on reuse of army brass; causing a massive shortage of ammunition. Now this.

Remember, the NRA played a HUGE role in the GOP takeover of Congress in ‘94. It looks like we’ll have a rerun in 2010…

Norwegian on April 20, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Why? Courts have ruled, and legislators and the local city council have ruled, that outside is public space to be regulated/controlled by the public…i.e., government.

Where’s that?

radiofreevillage on April 20, 2009 at 5:03 PM

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:00 PM

I thought you lived in Ohio… not California? Was I wrong?

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Think of it like this;
What if a state decided that Blacks had to pass a background check, take training, pay a fee, and pass a test to be free or if the just said they were not going to honor the 13th amendment?

That would go over like a turd in the punch bowl.

Your right to keep and bare arms is a right that is inalienable and shall not be infringed. The 14th Ammendment backs up what I am saying up.

States can not nullify constitutional rights.

As a citizen of the U.S. you can Keep (own) and Bare (carry).

You do not need a permit, PERIOD!
If anyone tries to take that right away, shoot them, for they are f*cking traitorous bast*rds!

TheSitRep on April 20, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Why? Courts have ruled, and legislators and the local city council have ruled, that outside is public space to be regulated/controlled by the public…i.e., government.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:00 PM

Right but the legislators in your municipality wrote those laws, not the federal government. It sucks but that’s the way our government is setup.

I’m also sure that if not for the 2nd amendment you wouldn’t have any guns (or sharp objects) at ALL now.

Skywise on April 20, 2009 at 5:07 PM

If anyone tries to take that right away, shoot them, for they are f*cking traitorous bast*rds!

TheSitRep on April 20, 2009 at 5:05 PM

Probably not a good idea.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 5:08 PM

+1 on the Springfield XD.

greggriffith on April 20, 2009 at 5:09 PM

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 4:59 PM

Malls are private property. Mall-owned parking lots are private property. The rules the owner determines, unless blatantly contrary to law, are the rules those using that mall, or parking their car in the mall parking lot, must abide if they wish to enter private property.

But, Joe’s Gun Shop over on South Main Street? How does one legally carry a weapon into or out of Joe’s Gun Shop if the intervening space, a public street, is a regulated public open space? It need not be a densely populated public space…

And yes, infringe means infringe….limit, control, prohibit.

I am astounded the 9th didn’t happily jump on the nail the gun owners bandwagon this time….but their ruling only makes it just another step toward further regulation at the state and local level. And if precedence is established on the Second Amendment Right being infrigned, there are a few others that cannot be far behind.

I would expect, and soon, municipalities banning Tea Parties, in public open spaces, with the full concurrence of the courts. As, of course, a public safety measure…never, of course, being designed to limit the exercise of free speech or the right of the people to peaceably assemble and demand redress from their government.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:09 PM

upinak on April 20, 2009 at 5:04 PM

Ohio…and the local public smoking ban went into effect this year, following a total ban on smoking in bars, even patios of bars. Not statewide, yet…give it time.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:11 PM

All of which means that we’re trending towards a narrow understanding of the Second Amendment that limits gun rights to handguns inside the home (and conceivably a limit on how many you can own?). That’s better than nothing, but not much better. – AP

What does “better than nothing” mean? Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick?

My wife isn’t going to be happy with the holes in the wall if the only place I can shoot is inside my home.

kirkill on April 20, 2009 at 5:11 PM

Its better than I expected from the 9th, anyway. Did I mention what I plan to spend my tax return on?

AbaddonsReign on April 20, 2009 at 5:12 PM

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 5:08 PM

Is there anything that you would fight for?
If not freedom and the constitution then what?

TheSitRep on April 20, 2009 at 5:12 PM

Meh….

As much of a gun nut as anyone on these boards this ruling doesn’t have me out in the front yard sending lead toward the sun. Fundamental, sure, but our history is riddled with local communities taking local control of gun carry rights.
Even the Texas Rangers, in the mid 1880s, were prohibited from carrying firearms into the two of Decater, Texas. Most of you are familiar with Earp and the Dodge city ordinance.
I guess what I’m getting at is it boils down is that States control the where, the Feds control the what.

Limerick on April 20, 2009 at 5:13 PM

Where’s that?

radiofreevillage on April 20, 2009 at 5:03 PM

Where’s the smoking ban in public places? here, in this community. In many others. In Maryland, I believe it is now state wide. Others are following suit if they haven’t passed laws already. no federal ban. But,left to the states.

herein is my problem with this 9th District ruling. It allows localities to make laws that are contrary to Constitutional guarantees.

Thus…if we take it to the absurd extreme…can a locality ban something such as non-property owners voting on issues that involved property taxes? Or maybe having tests administered so one can determine who can vote or not?

If the Federal Judiciary rules in one case that States Rights have primacy…then, over which rights can that State exercise control? Is the old George Wallace American Independent Party far behind, once this door has been propped open? Propped open by the federal Judiciary which chose not issue a finite ruling, but instead leaving the door wide open for a state, or locality, to make the choice.

This is not the 9th District interpreting the law, and Constitution, as it stands…this is merely kicking the can a little bit farther down the street.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:19 PM

which is greater… the rights of a bar owner to ban guns on his property or the right to conceal carry?

If the owner posts his policy, then there is no conflict. If I don’t want to be disarmed, I don’t patronize his establishment. But the case here is “county property”. I don’t have the choice to not patronize the government; my taxes go there whether I use what my taxes pay for or not.

I accept general disarmament at the courthouse, where passionate disagreements are adjudicated, and the county provides armed sheriff’s deputies to maintain the peace. But a county park, or even a parking lot, won’t have the same level of protection, nor will it have metal detectors to screen out those who choose to violate laws.

I should be able to carry my weapon up to the metal detector, hand it over to a deputy and get a claim check with which I can retrieve it when my business with the government is concluded. That such a scenario is unthinkable to the authorities indicates how far we’ve gone from the Framers’ intent.

The Monster on April 20, 2009 at 5:21 PM

Most of you are familiar with Earp and the Dodge city ordinance.
I guess what I’m getting at is it boils down is that States control the where, the Feds control the what.

Limerick on April 20, 2009 at 5:13 PM

Hmmmm… interesting choice of test case… seeing as the Dodge ordinance led to one of the most famouse shootouts in US History. Worked REAL well didn’t it…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:25 PM

The Second Amendment to the federal constitution would not perform either function if placed within a state’s constitutional framework because it draws the outer boundary too far in one direction if applied to State laws.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 4:59 PM

The federal wording of the 2nd amendment is not good for the state level. Something that allows for the bearing of arms for hunting and reasonable protection of self and property shall not be infringed would be better.

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 5:27 PM

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:19 PM

One point that no one is making… is that the 14th WAS ratified by the States.

They CHOSE to follow it….

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Is there anything that you would fight for?
If not freedom and the constitution then what?

TheSitRep on April 20, 2009 at 5:12 PM

I’m not gonna shoot someone because I disagree with their political agenda. That’s silly talk.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Buy Kimber

blatantblue on April 20, 2009

Yeah, they have these at my gun shop, too. Price wise, though not sure if they’re what I’m wanting to spend right now. Just want something to go with a .357 hogleg.
But, I really like the rifles, that 84M LongMaster classic in .308 is sweet looking.
Thanks all, will be at the range this week.

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 5:31 PM

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Yes.

Bad law written for all the best of reasons is still bad law.

And this is where precedent and law make easy money for smart lawyers. And, this is where the Federal Judiciary simply must be that place where the buck stops…or with our elected Congress addressing the real issues, instead of simply passing yet another unread law, kicking the can just a little bit farther.

Individual liberties…within a social context…that is what the Founders were trying to address. Such required not only a respect for the law, but a respect for the people as well.

Of late, I find this sadly lacking.

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 5:32 PM

One point that no one is making… is that the 14th WAS ratified by the States.

They CHOSE to follow it….

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Yes, but I do not think the “incorporation” meaning was ever envisioned when ratified. In re-reading the 14th amendment just not, the “incorporation” rulings by the SCOTUS seem like quite a stretch.

WashJeff on April 20, 2009 at 5:35 PM

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