Ninth Circuit: Second Amendment also protects gun owners from state law

posted at 4:12 pm on April 20, 2009 by Allahpundit

Big news for constitutional law junkies, not so big for gun owners. We’re dealing here with the doctrine of “incorporation,” the notion that some — but not all — of the rights in the Bill of Rights protect people not only from the federal government but from their state governments, too. That wasn’t the case until the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, thereby “incorporating” certain federal constitutional rights to the state level; ever since, courts have agonized over deciding which rights are sufficiently “fundamental” as to qualify for incorporation. Why not just say that the entire Bill of Rights was incorporated instead of picking and choosing from it? Don’t ask. The whole subject’s a major clusterfark.

Per the Ninth Circuit, as of today, the Second Amendment is officially “fundamental” on the west coast. No surprise there, even with two Democratic appointees on the three-judge panel: On the very day that the Supreme Court decided the Heller case, I told you it was a fait accompli that the Second Amendment would end up being incorporated. The whole logic of the Heller opinion was that gun ownership is an important safeguard of liberty and deeply rooted in American history; if that’s not “fundamental,” nothing is. The real question is how much this matters in practical terms. Answer: Not much, as TNR predicted more than a year ago when the Court was hearing oral arguments in the Heller case.

For all but the hardest-core gun lovers, prudence and public safety ultimately limit libertarianism–and the justices don’t seem inclined to dive off a cliff and read the amendment so as to permit individual ownership of upper-end military hardware. That seemed almost as clear at arguments as the court’s direction on the question of whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right. A lawyer for those challenging the ban acknowledged, for example, that “of course” background checks for firearms purchases would be constitutional. Justice Antonin Scalia told Solicitor General Paul Clement, “I don’t see why” the federal government would “have a problem” sustaining its ban on machine guns if D.C.’s handgun ban fell. All sides appeared comfortable with the idea that criminals would not receive protection from the amendment. Outside of Washington D.C., in other words, a revitalized Second Amendment would largely forbid what nobody was seriously contemplating anyway: bans on common weapons for the recreational and self-protective uses of law-abiding people.

Even Scalia didn’t imagine a Second Amendment right to bear machine guns. Which brings us to today’s ruling, the most amazing detail of which isn’t the incorporation finding but the fact that, as Ace notes, the Ninth Circuit ended up upholding the gun regulation. The money bit, from page 4497 of the opinion:

Heller tells us that the Second Amendment’s guarantee revolves around armed self-defense. If laws make such self-defense impossible in the most crucial place — the home — by rendering firearms useless, then they violate the Constitution.

But the Ordinance before us is not of that ilk. It does not directly impede the efficacy of self-defense or limit self-defense in the home. Rather, it regulates gun possession in public places that are County property…

The Nordykes argue that the Ordinance is overbroad because it covers more than such sensitive places. They list the areas covered: “open space venues, such as County-owned parks, recreational areas, historic sites, parking lots of public buildings . . . and the County fairgrounds.” The only one of these that seems odd as a “sensitive place” is parking lots. The rest are gathering places where high numbers of people might congregate. That is presumably why they are called “open space venues.” Indeed, the fairgrounds itself hosts numerous public and private events throughout the year, which a large number of people presumably attend; again, the Nordykes’ gun shows routinely attracted about 4,000 people. Although Heller does not provide much guidance, the open, public spaces the County’s Ordinance covers fit comfortably within the same category as schools and government buildings.

Translation: You may have a Second Amendment right to defend your home but you have no Second Amendment right to concealed carry, especially in densely populated “sensitive places.” In fact, one of the Democratic judges wrote a separate opinion today specifically to emphasize that “important governmental interests will justify reasonable regulation of rifles and handguns, and the problem for our courts will be to define, in the context of particular regulation by the states and municipalities, what is reasonable and permissible and what is unreasonable and offensive to the Second Amendment.” The legal question going forward is how broadly courts will interpret the “sensitive places” exception; given the number of lefty judges we’re in store for from The One, I’m guessing darned broadly. All of which means that we’re trending towards a narrow understanding of the Second Amendment that limits gun rights to handguns inside the home (and conceivably a limit on how many you can own?). That’s better than nothing, but not much better.

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Comment pages: 1 2

I was looking at a Springfield Armory 45XD at lunch today. Price around 5 Bennies; just not sure about a made in Croatia firearm.

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

If you’re looking at XDs, look at the XDM. They made improvements, and there is no need to buy the older model unless there is a big price difference.

darwin-t on April 20, 2009 at 5:37 PM

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Constitution gives me the specific RIGHT to Keep and bear arms…

14th says States may make no law impinging on that specific “privelege or immunity”.

States ratified both of these amendments…

Why is this even being argued… seems pretty darn clear to me.

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:43 PM

molon labbe !!

Viper1 on April 20, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Hey Okie,

The XD is a fine weapon. Some SpecOps teams are running with them. You won’t be disappointed in the least. Get it while you can.

av8tr on April 20, 2009 at 5:51 PM

I’m not gonna shoot someone because I disagree with their political agenda. That’s silly talk.

a capella on April 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM

I didn’t say if they disagree, I said:

If anyone tries to take that right away, shoot them, for they are f*cking traitorous bast*rds!

TheSitRep on April 20, 2009 at 5:52 PM

The Open Carry people, f which I am a member, are going to totally pop champagne corks.

GunRunner on April 20, 2009 at 5:54 PM

There is exploding anger among the gun owning grassroots for Obama’s decision to maintain the ban on reuse of army brass; causing a massive shortage of ammunition. Now this.

Norwegian on April 20, 2009 at 5:03 PM

That rule change lasted less than a week. And Tom Gresham, who does “Gun Talk” thinks it was some mid level cog in the defense dept, not Yomama. If that was so, I say that the the cog did it with the assumption that The One would want it so.

darwin-t on April 20, 2009 at 5:54 PM

14th amendment and incorporation

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 5:57 PM

Why is this even being argued… seems pretty darn clear to me.

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:43 PM

Read the above link and see if still think incorporation was a) the original intent of the 14th amendment and b) a really good idea.

Someone else posted the above link last week and it was an eye opener to me.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 5:59 PM

bikermailman:

Write Robbie at Urbangrounds.com. He lives in Austin, rides a bike and I believe he has a permit. Great guy, will have all the info you need.

mimi1220 on April 20, 2009 at 6:00 PM

The Open Carry people, f which I am a member, are going to totally pop champagne corks.

GunRunner on April 20, 2009 at 5:54 PM

Go ahead. You’re still going to have to deal with the vast majority of cops who think you’re committing a crime, and compensate by charging you with disorderly conduct, mayhem, disturbing the peace, or some other BS misdemeanor.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 6:05 PM

That rule change lasted less than a week. And Tom Gresham, who does “Gun Talk” thinks it was some mid level cog in the defense dept, not Yomama. If that was so, I say that the the cog did it with the assumption that The One would want it so.

darwin-t on April 20, 2009 at 5:54 PM

Another one under the bus.

Johan Klaus on April 20, 2009 at 6:05 PM

OkieDoc,

In these times, buy American. My favorite auto is my Colt Gov model .45. Bought it when I got back from Nam in 1970. I have shot thousands of rounds through it with no breakage. It is the MK IV series 70 with the collet barrel bushing. The bushing has never been a problem. I can still score 9′s even at my age.
look at current Colts.

The Kimber looks good too.

Good shooting!

Marc

marcboyd on April 20, 2009 at 6:05 PM

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 5:59 PM

The disconnect on this specific issue however is that the First Amendment specificly states that Congress shall make no law… Its a prohibition on Congress itself… not on the States…

While the 2nd is written differently, it directly says that we have the RIGHT to keep an bear arms… and it shall not be infringed…. says nothing of Congress or anyone else… thus it SHOULD be enforced for all US citizens, at both the Federal and STATE Level… even without the 14th…

Different standards as written…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 6:11 PM

Go ahead. You’re still going to have to deal with the vast majority of cops who think you’re committing a crime, and compensate by charging you with disorderly conduct, mayhem, disturbing the peace, or some other BS misdemeanor.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 6:05 PM

I haven’t had a problem in Indiana yet. Granted, I’ve only carried openly at Wendys or Mcdonalds when I have lunch on the weekend, but the lack of reaction was encouraging.

The Indiana carry license doesn’t require you conceal so that helps.

aikidoka on April 20, 2009 at 6:15 PM

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Try the model 36 Glock 45 single stack.

Johan Klaus on April 20, 2009 at 6:17 PM

Different standards as written…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 6:11 PM

I interpreted your eariler comments as support of the idea of incorporation. I see your point now.

But the discussion is, in my understanding, that the 9th just declared the 2nd amendment to fall under incorporation. I’m all about the 2nd amendment, but not excited about any expansion to Federal power through misuse of the 14th.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM

Go ahead. You’re still going to have to deal with the vast majority of cops who think you’re committing a crime, and compensate by charging you with disorderly conduct, mayhem, disturbing the peace, or some other BS misdemeanor.

Meaning no disrespect Sir, but it is already legal here in Washington State.
.
I open carry daily and we post our encounters with the Police, Businesses and others on OpenCarry.org. 99% are positive. Those that are not are dissected, discussed and we react. Some receive apologies from Police Depts, some sue and consistently win money from Police Dept, some file Internal Affairs complaints. The point is that Police are our servants, not our Masters. Those that continue to “Cuff and Stuff” for doing a completely legal behavior are removed from the service. Please see the blog for examples.

GunRunner on April 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM

aikidoka on April 20, 2009 at 6:15 PM

May have thought you were a Cop… happened to me one time going into a Courthouse… they just waved me past the detectors, was pretty funny, as I was there for a NETWORK security Job…

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 6:20 PM

Allah, quicky question. NY isn’t allowed to have guns unless you go thru multiple classes and have a special license (in the City). How does that work with Hunting Rifles?

Just curious… if you don’t know that is ok too.

The State should force their police to go thru multiple classes on how to shot. NY cops has less then 10% hit probability.

jdun on April 20, 2009 at 6:21 PM

Oh, and can we stop already with the “machine guns are illegal” nonsense? The ban is on manufacture, not citizen ownership. Granted, it’s pretty effective in limiting supply, but the right, though regulated and taxed, is still there.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:22 PM

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM

Yeah, kinda funny that the 9th, as usual, has very poor basic reading comprehension…

In this case they pretty much used a poor reason to reach a result… and because of that reasoning it opens a whole bunch of other issues.

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 6:24 PM

GunRunner on April 20, 2009 at 6:19 PM

You’re lucky, then. In some states, like Florida, open carry is actually illegal, while CC is legal. Figure that one out.

It’s worse in Wisconsin, where CC is illegal. Open carry is legal, and has even been personally endorsed by the mayor. However, actually do it, and people’s eyes will bug out on the streets and three cop cars will surround you. Wisconsin is far from the only one that has this problem.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 6:25 PM

My understanding is that machineguns and full auto rifles are legal to own (in Heller) but it was left for future court case.

It is currently legal to own Machineguns and full auto firearms in the USA. You can own 155 howitzer if you find a willing seller.

jdun on April 20, 2009 at 6:30 PM

specially in densely populated “sensitive places.”

These would be EXACTLY the places I would like someone to have a cc license and firearm to take out some lunatic who opened fire. VA Tech anyone?

Mommypundit on April 20, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Troll free thread. This feels like the HA I used to enjoy so much.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:33 PM

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:33 PM

‘Round heya, we shoots trolls, m’K? :-)

coldwarrior on April 20, 2009 at 6:36 PM

These would be EXACTLY the places I would like someone to have a cc license and firearm to take out some lunatic who opened fire. VA Tech anyone?

Mommypundit on April 20, 2009 at 6:31 PM

I agree.

Karl Denninger use logic and critical thinking skills when he made the case to support the 2nd. Unfortunately most Americans that came out of our public school system dumb.

http://musings.denninger.net/archives/199-Second-Amendment-Under-Fire.html

jdun on April 20, 2009 at 6:36 PM

Troll free thread. This feels like the HA I used to enjoy so much.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:33 PM

LOL…

Abortion! Gay Marriage! Legalize Pot! Obama is the ONE!!!

/runs out of thread after polluting it with Troll Bait!

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 6:39 PM

The simple wording of the Second Amendment, amazes me as to how our courts, with it’s confounded judges, have spent thousands upon thousands of wasted hours, and millions of pages on opinions, for just TWENTY SEVEN WORDS… that a fifth grade student can read, and understand in a few minutes:

byteshredder on April 20, 2009 at 4:49 PM

Actually, the body of Second Amendment jurisprudence is small. (Heller is the first “modern” Second Amendment case take up by the Supreme Court.)

But the question of incorporation isn’t a question of what the Amendment means. Rather, the question is: To whom does the Amendment apply? For the first several decades of our country’s history, it was widely understood that the Bill of Rights — all of them, not just the Second — applied only against federal power. The First Amendment, for example, says that “Congress shall make no law …” It doesn’t say anything about your state legislature.

The Bill of Rights didn’t apply to the states — was never thought to apply to the states — until the Supreme Court invented its “incorporation doctrine.”

paul006 on April 20, 2009 at 6:42 PM

I wont stop until I own a machine gun.

southsideironworks on April 20, 2009 at 6:42 PM

Constitution gives me the specific RIGHT to Keep and bear arms…

14th says States may make no law impinging on that specific “privelege or immunity”.

States ratified both of these amendments…

Why is this even being argued… seems pretty darn clear to me.

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 5:43 PM

Except the Privileges and Immunities Clause was expressly rejected by SCOTUS for incorporation. Instead, they went back years later to incorporate through other, more “magical” means.

The P&I Clause presents an interesting academic debate in itself, but I think the narrow reading we saw with the Slaughterhouse Cases is the most sound due to the historical meaning of the phrase. Waivers of State sovereignty in the federal constitution must be explicit and clear; thus, those who advocate for the broader reading should carry the greater burden here.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 6:52 PM

Correction: first sentence should be in block quote.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 6:53 PM

I wont stop until I own a machine gun.

southsideironworks on April 20, 2009 at 6:42 PM

Yea, I’m sort of down that line myself. While I was happy when Scalia wrote the Heller decision, it was not at all clear to me what his reasoning was regarding machine guns and why he didn’t think that a personal right to gun ownership would allow things like machine guns to be regulated. IMO, a reasonable reading of the 2A would seem to allow everything up through squad-level weapons. Okay, yea, so you can’t own your own tank or howitzer or H-bomb, but I don’t see how you could eliminate full-auto weapons when that’s the standard issue rifle to every private in the army.

Again, if the actual intent of the 2A is to allow people to protect themselves, hunt, and serve in a militia if so called, then squad-level weapons would seem to be on the table.

PersonalLiberty on April 20, 2009 at 6:55 PM

It pains me so that all our rights seem to hinge on the arbitrary opinions of a few wearing robes.

JellyToast on April 20, 2009 at 6:56 PM

Sorry, I meant “…why he did think that a personal right…

PersonalLiberty on April 20, 2009 at 6:57 PM

It pains me so that all our rights seem to hinge on the arbitrary opinions of a few wearing robes.

JellyToast on April 20, 2009 at 6:56 PM

It need not be the case. But the change must come indirectly, through State governments or the other branches of the federal government. Texas set the right tone the other day, minus the governor’s veiled hint at secession. How about the States remain in the Union this time, but grow a pair and tell the feds that they’re fed up?

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 7:00 PM

So if some nut is hell bent on killing a large number of unarmed people, the best place to look is in “gun free” open venues.

I’m sure this will be a great comfort to those who lost family members while sitting in a restaurant.

Why should I trust the government when the government obviously doesn’t trust me?

GarandFan on April 20, 2009 at 7:02 PM

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 6:52 PM

Once again, basic reading… not tortured Court interpretations.

1st amendment is specific that “Congress shall make no law” about certain things… its specific to the Congress of the US, thus not applicable to the State Level…

2nd however is written much broader… “shall not be infringed”… meaning by anyone… Federal or State… it does not say Congress shall not infringe…

I’m one of those people who believe the Law says what it SAYS, not what you interpret it to mean… if you don’t like the law, then CHANGE it… don’t ignore what it says because you disagree with it (like the Bambi admin and the Illegal Alien laws…. which they refuse to enforce..).

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 7:03 PM

The first amendment is phrased “congress shall not”, limiting the protections to the federal government.
The second amendment is phrased “shall not be abridged”, which would imply that it is universal.
That said, I don’t think the second amendment would prevent a city, state, or basically anyone from prohibiting persons from attending an event while armed.

Count to 10 on April 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 7:03 PM

Clearly, I was too slow on the draw.

Count to 10 on April 20, 2009 at 7:11 PM

Again, if the actual intent of the 2A is to allow people to protect themselves, hunt, and serve in a militia if so called, then squad-level weapons would seem to be on the table.

PersonalLiberty on April 20, 2009 at 6:55 PM

Precisely the direction I am going. The State of Illinois feels otherwise though. Twenty-some years ago, I schlepped an M-60 around, no thanks, I have my sights on an RPK or a Romanian AES-10. My prey is a truck or a HUMVEE, not a deer.

southsideironworks on April 20, 2009 at 7:36 PM

darwin-t on April 20, 2009 at 5:37 PM

I bought an XDm 40 a month or two ago, and they are about $1-150 more than the XD. The m designation is ‘match’ so it has a slightly longer and more precise barrel, but the thing that sold me on it was the grip style, its not the straight cut grip, its got a contour, and comes with 3 different rear contours for the grip. I would recommend the XDm over the XD if you can afford it.

kerncon on April 20, 2009 at 7:41 PM

My XD 40 tacticle with the 5″ barrel is my favorite, I’ve put thousands of rounds through it and it performs flawlessly. My ruger P 91D is not in the same good graces as it needs to be cleaned after a couple hundred rounds or it will misfire. There are many fine firearms out there, do your homework and you will be rewarded.

aceinstall on April 20, 2009 at 7:50 PM

I have a reasonable shooting acumen, is there another one along this line I should consider?

OkieDoc on April 20, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Look at the HK45C or the USP 45 Compact, both by Heckler & Koch. Great for carry, and drop dead reliable!

smfoushee on April 20, 2009 at 7:59 PM

Troll free thread. This feels like the HA I used to enjoy so much.

TexasDan on April 20, 2009 at 6:33 PM

Gunphobia.

Johan Klaus on April 20, 2009 at 8:04 PM

AllahPundit:

Why not just say that the entire Bill of Rights was incorporated instead of picking and choosing from it?

My understanding of the matter (as someone unburdened with a legal education) is that Congress did in fact intend to do that with the Privileges and Immunities clause of the XIVth, but that SCOTUS essentially read that clause out of the Constitution with The Slaughterhouse Cases. The Court’s logic in those cases was essentially “You have to be kidding us Congress!!! That is WAY too revolutionary.”

Any ConLaw scholars know anything of this?

JohnGalt23 on April 20, 2009 at 8:29 PM

Okay, yea, so you can’t own your own tank or howitzer.

PersonalLiberty on April 20, 2009 at 6:55 PM

It is legal to own tanks and howitzers in the USA. There are a numbers of them that is in private hands.

jdun on April 20, 2009 at 8:43 PM

It’s worse in Wisconsin, where CC is illegal.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 6:25 PM

That’s why I’ll never go to Wisconsin. Or Illinois. Or Ohio for that matter – they don’t recognize Indiana’s license.

I don’t go anywhere they won’t allow me to protect myself.

darwin-t on April 20, 2009 at 8:45 PM

Notice, the First Ammendment specifically states that “Congress shall make no law regarding…”
-
This wording implies that the laundry list of protected activities is not protected from state or local law. The ammendment only handcuffs congress.
-
The Second Ammendment says
“The right to keep (own) and bear (carry) arms shall not be infringed.
-
The glaring absense of the “Congress shall make no law” phrase, implies that the right cannot be infirnged by any level of government.
-
Yes,No ????

esblowfeld on April 20, 2009 at 9:21 PM

Notice, the First Ammendment specifically states that “Congress shall make no law regarding…”
-
This wording implies that the laundry list of protected activities is not protected from state or local law. The ammendment only handcuffs congress.
-
The Second Ammendment says
“The right to keep (own) and bear (carry) arms shall not be infringed.
-
The glaring absense of the “Congress shall make no law” phrase, implies that the right cannot be infirnged by any level of government.
-
Yes,No ????

esblowfeld on April 20, 2009 at 9:21 PM

Notice, the first ammendment says
“congress shall make no law”
-
Thus the list of rights is not protected at the state and local level.
-
The second ammendment does not contain the “congress” phrase.
-
This implies that the ammendment applies at all levels of government.

yes , no ???

esblowfeld on April 20, 2009 at 9:27 PM

Of course, esblowfeld.

The problem is that those on the left don’t know what words mean.

This makes it difficult to converse with them, and quite impossible to debate them – they just make each word “mean” whatever benefits them at any given moment.

How else can the Second be claimed to mean anything what it obviously means, what the founders said it means, and what every SERIOUS reviewer of the text knows it means. The words simply are what they are, and you HAVE to make yourself a liar to claim that they don’t recognize and demand protection for the rights of individuals.

It’s time again to call liars what they are, and to prove it to their faces, again and again and again. I’m just sick to death of liars.

Merovign on April 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM

Go ahead. You’re still going to have to deal with the vast majority of cops who think you’re committing a crime, and compensate by charging you with disorderly conduct, mayhem, disturbing the peace, or some other BS misdemeanor.

MadisonConservative on April 20, 2009 at 6:05 PM

True. That’s the main reason I’m not armed in public…I’m concerned about being hassled by the police…hate to say it, but true. I’ve never been arrested in my life, but in my few encounters with them (unarmed) they’ve been pretty dick-ish, so I can’t imagine how they’d be if I was ‘packing’.

Of course, in a suburban environment it’s not a good idea. I’d feel pretty stupid walking into a grocery store or a mall with a pistol on my hip. Also, I believe that businesses do have the right not to allow firearms to be brought in, especially holstered/visible. So, what’s the point? Also, I don’t see how one can conceal a (legal) large caliber pistol without looking suspicious—like wearing a jacket in July.

Now, out in the sticks, that’s a different matter.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 20, 2009 at 10:46 PM

Once again, basic reading… not tortured Court interpretations.

1st amendment is specific that “Congress shall make no law” about certain things… its specific to the Congress of the US, thus not applicable to the State Level…

2nd however is written much broader… “shall not be infringed”… meaning by anyone… Federal or State… it does not say Congress shall not infringe…

I’m one of those people who believe the Law says what it SAYS, not what you interpret it to mean… if you don’t like the law, then CHANGE it… don’t ignore what it says because you disagree with it (like the Bambi admin and the Illegal Alien laws…. which they refuse to enforce..).

Romeo13 on April 20, 2009 at 7:03 PM

Romeo, the Bill of Rights was universally interpreted not to apply against the States until the late Ninteenth and early Twentieth Centuries. This was not some arbitrary decision by a few robed clowns, but common wisdom. The only question that remains is whether the Fourteenth Amendment changed anything in this regard, and to what extent.

The difference in language which you cite as some sort of “smoking gun” for gun rights is attributable to the imprecise and flowery legalese of the day.

In fact, the only way you can arrive at your conclusion that the Second Amendment, by its very language, applies against the States is from the contemporary perspective that the federal constitution is some sort of “rights tree” from which we all can pluck the fruit of our choice. “We the People” were not concerned with State sovereignty when we entered into this union, but rather our collective fear was that too much additional power would be conferred upon the federal leviathan–even if we had found the original Articles of Confederation wanting.

Unfortunately, “We the People” are now mindless children of the Leftist American Revolution, having forsaken the structures which guarantee freedom in exchange for the illusory promise of unlimited prosperity and freedom at no cost. One day we shall realize that our prosperity has been wasted away and that our liberty died with it.

cackcon on April 20, 2009 at 11:53 PM

My understanding of the matter (as someone unburdened with a legal education) is that Congress did in fact intend to do that with the Privileges and Immunities clause of the XIVth, but that SCOTUS essentially read that clause out of the Constitution with The Slaughterhouse Cases. The Court’s logic in those cases was essentially “You have to be kidding us Congress!!! That is WAY too revolutionary.”

Any ConLaw scholars know anything of this?

JohnGalt23 on April 20, 2009 at 8:29 PM

I’d have to review the historical background of the case a bit more, but for the most part, yes, this was how things shook out. I’m not sure if it was Congress or a few of the more tyrannical elitist types who urged such a reading of P&I. Certainly, it is notable that the secessionist States were coerced into agreeing with the Fourteenth (and Thirteenth) Amendments. Anyone foisting an expansive reading of the Fourteenth upon us must at least acknowledge that it represents a far more significant shift in power than the Thirteenth, which resolved merely a single issue.

Another historical note, perhaps: I’m fairly certain that no constitutional amendment (and only few, carefully worded provisions of the original text) represented any surrender of State sovereignty until the Thirteenth. The Eleventh, for instance, assured the States that they had retained Sovereign Immunity. And we’re all familiar with the Bill of Rights, even if some of us don’t understand them fully.

Post-Civil War, though, you begin to see the federal constitution not only as a weapon against State sovereignty but, in the case of prohibition, as a weapon against the liberties of the people.

Fascinating, no?

cackcon on April 21, 2009 at 12:03 AM

I think one could successfully challenge their conclusion. If law abiding citizens have the right to defend themselves and their family, one also has that same right to defend oneself and family in open spaces such as parks, fairgrounds, etc. However, I don’t want a bunch of want-to-be heroes packing, or volatile idiots that have had a few drinks and are losing money at the fair midway.

But if one assumes the county/state can restrict carry at these places, I think one could sue the county/state that since they restrict firearms at these areas from law abiding citizens to defend themselves, then they most provide enough security to immediately render aid to any potential victim.

One other thought since the county/state could never afford the amount of police security that would entail would be to have citizen deputies. As in the old west when a posse was formed, the sheriff deputized the posse. Why not deputized individuals that would like to be able to carry.

Maybe a six week night school course to familiarize and train these individuals in marksmanship, situations in which deadly force would be necessary, and maybe to carry a emergency beacon type cell phone to call in police before said situation gets to the deadly stage. In additions, background checks,psychological profile, and maybe recommendations.

BTW, I would trust any returning Iraq or Afghanistan veteran to be a citizen deputy. Most of them already have experience dealing with volatile situations.

The only problem I see with this is it reminds me of Obama homeland security force that he wants to form.

PrettyD_Vicious on April 21, 2009 at 12:17 AM

I don’t think the NRA seems to really care about this nor about California gun owners. California HAS no equivalent to the 2nd Amendment, one has been drawn up and there are attempts to place it on the ballot but the NRA will NOT return phone calls or emails even from lifetime members in California. It seems as if the NRA just wants your money and for anyone who tries to promote the 2nd Amendment to just shut up.
A strict, largely encompassing Constitutional Amendment in California would overthrow most of the fascist, unconstitutional gun laws here but getting any help from the NRA to get the signatures on petitions is a joke.

nelsonknows on April 21, 2009 at 1:04 AM

It’s amazing that when idiots in the Supreme Court refer to our founding fathers, they usually exclude the opinions of the people who actually WROTE the Constitution, Madison, Hamilton, and Mason. The Federalist Papers were written in an attempt to better define the Constitution yet the opinions of Hamilton, Madison and Jay are largely left out of SCOTUS opinion.
Even in the opinion written in Everson V Board of Education written by Hugo Black in 1947, Black, (a prominent member of the KKK and Anti-Catholic League) misquoted Thomas Jefferson’s reply to the Dansbury Baptist Association and grossly took Jefferson’s reply out of context. Black placed this non-contextual opinion from Jefferson, who did not attend the Constitutional Convention, over Madison, Hamilton and Mason’s opinions, who actually WROTE the Constitution because actual opinion by the writers did not set with Black’s opinion and hatred against Catholics. Black’s opinion using the Danbury Letters would be equal to using a letter John F. Kennedy would write to his mother as Constitutional opinion.

nelsonknows on April 21, 2009 at 1:30 AM

Also, I don’t see how one can conceal a (legal) large caliber pistol without looking suspicious—like wearing a jacket in July.

Now, out in the sticks, that’s a different matter.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 20, 2009 at 10:46 PM

A S&W snubby .38Sp conceals pretty well under summer wear, if you keep the butt just behind the hipbone and wear a roomy shirt. 5 rounds, but an extra speedloader in a pocket is probably more than one should reasonably expect to be needed. Only problem is I hate to wear my shirts untucked.

a capella on April 21, 2009 at 2:05 AM

In the Summer, as a Real Estate Broker, I wear a suit jacket. Off work I go Hawaiian or long t-shirt.

Lately I have been adopting the Miami Vice look, Jacket with buttoned shirt beneath with a Ted Blocker “Life Line” Rig.

10mm, oh yes.

GunRunner on April 21, 2009 at 2:56 AM

Even Scalia didn’t imagine a Second Amendment right to bear machine guns.

Why not? They are legitimate arms to be used against a tyrant.

Right now, the prices of machine guns are outrageous. The only other option is to purchase them illegally. A $200 tax stamp and a background check should be all that limits me from a machinegun. Good Lord knows I’d love to have a full auto RPK or PPK.

Tim Burton on April 21, 2009 at 4:15 AM

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” Alexander Hamilton

“The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” James Madison

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. Alexander Hamilton

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country”
– James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789
(Note, this is the ORIGINAL wording of the 2nd Amendment)

“to disarm the people – that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.” George Mason

“if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights” Alexander Hamilton

“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.” George Mason

“A government that fears its’ citizens to be armed is in itself to be feared.” James Madison

“A citizen should be armed equally to that of a common infantryman, for what good does sticks and stones do against the weapons of tyranny?” George Mason

These are but a few of the quotes from the men who actually WROTE the Constitution and the Bill of Rights; Madison, Hamilton and Mason. NO ONE in this government not in any court could hold a candle tho these men’s intelligence and foresight and none should ever try least they make a fool of themselves.

nelsonknows on April 21, 2009 at 5:57 AM

In VA, we have a small, but active and growing “Open Carry” movement. Many of us have been arrested and have fought back in the courts and won.

I wear a sidearm openly nearly every day. I go to my bank, grocery stores, retailers, and restaraunts. I sorta open carried at the Tea Party (was raining so mostly under coat>).

“A citizen should be armed equally to that of a common infantryman, for what good does sticks and stones do against the weapons of tyranny?” George Mason

Nelson, you stole my quote.

Another VA quote, our state motto on the state seal:Sic Semper Tyrannus Thus Always to Tyrants, with the goddess virtue standing over a slain despot.

As they say at OpenCarry.org, “A right unexercised is a right lost.”

riverrat10k on April 21, 2009 at 8:53 AM

The Indiana carry license doesn’t require you conceal so that helps.

aikidoka

I’ve had my carry permit for Indiana for 12 years now and I have to say I always assumed it was for concealed carry. After reading your comment I pulled the card and read it again. It reads, in part “…is hereby licensed by the Indiana State Police to carry on their person or in a vehicle any handgun lawfully possessed by Licensee.”
It does not specify concealed. Is my face red!
I will still prefer to carry concealed because I don’t want people to stare at me, but it’s good to know I can carry open if I so choose. Thanks.

SKYFOX on April 21, 2009 at 11:38 AM

The 2nd Amendment was designed to insure that that people could one day over throw an oppressive government that no longer listened to them. That is the reality and its implication is that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms that would make such an event possible. If you don’t like that idea there is a solution and its called a Constitutional Amendment. I cherish the right to keep and bear arms and I wish more people would too. Sadly our modern citizens don’t seem to value freedom as much as security … or the illusion of it …

Stickeehands on April 21, 2009 at 12:52 PM

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