On my desk: The Late, Great State of Israel
posted at 1:15 pm on April 18, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
My friend Aaron Klein, who reports for WorldNet Daily as its Jerusalem bureau chief, has found time between his prolific updates to write a new book, The Late Great State of Israel: How Enemies Within and Without Threaten the Jewish Nation’s Survival. The pessimistic title is no mistake; Klein feels that the thrust of global diplomacy has turned against Israel, and that the election of a center-right government in his nation may not be enough to withstand the forces driving Israel into potential extinction. Aaron is best known for his one-on-one interviews with Palestinian terrorists, but thinks that Israel and its allies may be the greater danger.
I’ll try to arrange an interview with Aaron this week for the Ed Morrissey Show to discuss his book and his pessimistic predictions. In the meantime, be sure to read an analysis from the front lines of the conflict.
Blowback
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Thanks, Captain. Tomorrow is my traditional day to wander around Borders. I’ll be sure to look for a copy.
Limerick on April 18, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Yep. Israel is being set-up to have to take care of Iran’s nuclear ambitions, after which, the West (very much including the US, with the traitorous piece of scum in the White House) will move to destroy the state – starting with a full embargo and blockade but eventually moving to an active arming of arabs and possibly a NATO attack on Israel.
It sounds insane, but this is the plan. Just take a look at the reactions to the minor operation in Gaza (which occurred while Israel had a friend in the White House) and multiply them by 10,000 (now that there is an adamant Israel-hater in Washington). It is so sad. It will make the Holocaust look like child’s play. Pathetic.
The only chance is that Israel finds the guts and eventually uses its nuclear arsenal, very liberally.
progressoverpeace on April 18, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Let ‘em rip, Israel. You have the most to lose, you should destroy those hellbent on destroying you. I think if the WH has a problem with it, we are going to see millions of US Jews in the streets, telling him to pack sand and I think I will join them!
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM
Israel needs to get on with it’s bad self and crush adversaries.
Like whoa
blatantblue on April 18, 2009 at 1:29 PM
Of course to call Israel the late great state is to neglect the ONE THING — God! From Biblical prophecy, I predict there will one day be a peace treaty with Israel, it will be broken 3-1/2 years later and 3-1/2 years after that all nations will come against Israel.
Christian Conservative on April 18, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Jeffrey Goldberg at the Atlantic had an article in May of last year title ” Is Israel finished ?” – incidentally the article was about Israel’s 60th anniversary.
His main point is that the Arab population in the country has grown and continues to grow to an extent that he envisions a 50-50 Jewish/Arab composition in the next 60 years.It practically makes Israel as at best a half Jewish state or at worst a steadily declining one where Arabs will finally outnumber Jews.
Talk of Israel’s demise is mostly fuelled by demographics and of course Iran’s continuing quest for the nuclear bomb. Goldberg is essentially skeptical if Israel in its current form and population ratio will continue to exist another 60 years from now.
It is a tragedy waiting to happen. God save Israel.
nagee76 on April 18, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Nothing to do with modern Israel. It’s a prophecy of Christ and the Church. Sorry to pop yer bubble.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 1:35 PM
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM
BetseyRoss on April 18, 2009 at 1:35 PM
+100. Go on with your bad selves!
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 1:39 PM
One of the finest societies on the earth and it has to fend for itself in a sea of dictatorships and Islamism.
What a world.
Richard Romano on April 18, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Yes, but if Obama comes out and steps in it by denouncing Israel trying to protect itself, I think there will be a swift change. I hope, anyway.
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 1:41 PM
Uh oh…
The Dean on April 18, 2009 at 1:41 PM
A history lesson of Israel from a larger pespective.
Zech 12:2-3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round
about And in that day … will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that
burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces.
2 Tim 3:1-5 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be
lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to
parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control,
brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than
lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Rev 13:3-8 The whole world was astonished and followed the beast (the Antichrist, who
will rule the world)… and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the
beast? Who can make war against him?” And he was given authority over every tribe,
people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all
whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was
slain from the creation of the world.
Rev 13:16,17 He (the antichrist) also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor,
free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one
could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number
of his name.
Zech 14:2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be
captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped.
Zech 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in
the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of
Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a
great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Rev 16:14-16 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out
to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God
Almighty… Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Zech 12:9-10 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of
grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will
mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves
for a firstborn son.
Joel 1:1-2 In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and
Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people
Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
katy on April 18, 2009 at 1:41 PM
I *think* I agree.
I tend to avoid eschatology because I was massively scarred by dispensationalist Arminian theology. heh. So, I still get weak kneed when I see headlines like this…and have to remember that God’s prophesy (as seen in Jesus, for example) often defy our best attempts at interpretation.
What do you believe?
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 1:43 PM
One of the finest societies on the earth and it has to fend for itself in a sea of dictatorships and Islamism.
Richard Romano on April 18, 2009 at 1:40 PM
With Obama now threatening it, Israel has come to the realization just what a lying traitor we have elected President.
Like the case with Carter, another Islamic appeaser, they realized it before we finally woke up to it.
TexasJew on April 18, 2009 at 1:44 PM
You know, we think that this will be a microchip or something freakshow like that. But, there is a mark that muslims take by the sword on both the head and hand…I read that somewhere. It realllllllllllllllllllllly flipped me out.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Isn’t Sarkozy supposedly friendly with Israel? Perhaps the French will…
…oh…
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 1:47 PM
If it needs saying, Israel can kick butt all day to defend itself, it’s a legitimate nation, etc. Ok? So don’t call me any names.
End times: He. 1:1-2, In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.”
1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Acts 2:16-19, But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke…”
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So again, hoping that Israel survives, wishi the US would do its part for an ally etc, your conscription of biblical prophecy to this argument is bad hermeneutics.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 1:52 PM
The Greeks used letters as numerals like the Romans did. 666 = the numerical value of the letters in Nero Caesar.
So your prophecy was fulfilled long ago. Rev. 1:1, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants
; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.
Rev. 22:10, And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Demography is destiny.
They should have expelled the muslems when they had the chance, now it’s just a matter of time. Same with the whole of Europe, they’re not far behind.
Rebar on April 18, 2009 at 1:57 PM
I came to that conclusion 10 years ago and left. That shrinking spot on the globe right next to the Mediterranean Sea and a bunch of angry Muslims doesn’t have a chance. I admire my family and friends for believing that they shall overcome but as the eternal pessimist I don’t see it, 40% of Israelis are under the deluded impression that Israel is at fault and the rest of the world agreeing with them. They used to have America on their side but they’ve lost that too. I know it’s a crazy idea but Israelis should close the country and leave, by doing so they’ll accomplish two things:
1. They will live longer
2. They will prove to the world that Islamic Fundamentalism has nothing to do with the existence of Israel and maybe then, someone would do something to stop it from burning our plant down to ashes.
Anyone who thinks we are doomed because of climate change is in for a huge surprise.
I know you guys don’t like illegal immigrants (I’m legal so please no attacks) but give them a break, even with Obama in power, it is still the last piece of haven/heaven on earth.
Michelle Dubois on April 18, 2009 at 2:01 PM
If Israel moves then we need to show our support here. One of my flags in the yard is a small Blue & White. She flys a bit lower then the Stars and Stripes and the Lone Star but she still flies. One of my neighbors commented he had never met an Irish Jew.
Fly, David! Fly!
Limerick on April 18, 2009 at 2:03 PM
And the same will happen in the EU in 100 years or so. With massive Muslim migration and rapid population growth, this presents a very troubling problem throughout the world.
Loxodonta on April 18, 2009 at 2:04 PM
You really need to put down the dime novels from the Christian Card Store and read the Bible and first century history (e.g., Flavius Josephus).
Right_of_Attila on April 18, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Right. I believe this to be true and have read as much. i am a partial preterist…are you full-on? I think, for sure, some have not been fulfilled…for instance, there is no way that we are living in the golden age of Christ’s reign unless it’s purely spiritual…and, if that were true, there is no evidence to support all worshiping the true King.
I can’t tell if we are at the end. Certainly the world is clamoring for something…like tectonic plates moving…I can feel it. But, is it the end of the end? Or, simply another rebirth, even if it means a loss of Israel and the West? I wonder.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:07 PM
And here too, Loxo. As most Americans are having 2 to 3 kids at most, Muslims and Illegal Aliens are having 5, 6, 7 kids. It is only a matter of time.
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 2:07 PM
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 1:41 PM
I hope so, too, but this whole country seems to be in a coma.
BetseyRoss on April 18, 2009 at 2:07 PM
You mean an illegal jewish refuge?
I’d hide one. :o)
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:08 PM
I blame the kool-aid. :)
HornetSting on April 18, 2009 at 2:08 PM
What I am hoping is that the liberals will die off and the fundies will have upward of 18 kids (The Duggars) and the rest of us regular homeschooling families will have 3-5 and we might break even, at least in this country…if we can get someone to remove the illegal immigrants and make them stop having anchor babies just to keep themselves on our dime in our country.
Come. Through. The. Front. DOOR.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Joel Rosenberg has interesting things to say about this topic, too. Read Epicenter.
Disturb the Universe on April 18, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Das’ right!
blatantblue on April 18, 2009 at 2:13 PM
“Full preterism” doesn’t agree that any prophecy remains unfulfilled. Certainly the general resurrection of the dead has yet to occur. On the one hand, the kingdom of God is not to be confused with, or judged according to, the kingdoms of this world. By the same token, some day the Saudi flag will have a cross on it. Habakkuk 2:14, “14For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”
Heh.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:18 PM
My study of Jesus/Yeshua has always been from a Hebrew perspective not a Greek one meaning Yeshua spoke and taught from the Torah and Tenach and not of a new teaching.
The new Testament wasn’t written yet… so His teachings were from the Torah (since HE wrote them after all). There was no division from old testament to new. He came to fulfil or correctly interpret the teachings of the Torah. To take them from stone and lay them on our hearts. But the laws/instruction did not change. Only the manner in which we apply them. Yeshua gave instructions on how to live as well as what to look for until His return and He spoke of the prophets for this purpose.
I will not get into a 1000 post argument about interpretations.
Israel is indeed a sovereign country that can defend itself.
What I did was lay it out from a Biblical perspective. It is there for anyone to read and see. Believe it not believe. But in the end we are to know what is coming and how to prepare ourselves. That was His message to us. We are to be watchmen on the wall.
katy on April 18, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Either way, it will get really, really, really ugly…then really awesome.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:23 PM
The Holy Spirit decided that Christ’s words should be preserved in Greek, so…
Hmmm… what words did He commit to writing?
I think you should study the epistles to the Galatians and Hebrews.
“Rev. 1:1, “…things which must shortly come to pass.”
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:24 PM
I’m not too worried about end times. Not yet. I’ll start shaking in my boots when it actually comes around. Until then, I’m going to enjoy myself and hate on libs.
blatantblue on April 18, 2009 at 2:25 PM
You can believe that lie if you wish, but more and more of the prophecies concerning Israel are coming to pass and you just try to sound like you know it all and believe it to be alegorical. Sorry, you are the one that misinterprets Scripture. When Scripture references the Mount of Olives it’s not talking about Mt. Olivet Church!
Christian Conservative on April 18, 2009 at 2:28 PM
I wondered about that. All scripture is God-breathed…the Old and New. Good point.
What denomination do you belong to?
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:24 PM
I’m pretty sure that part hasn’t happened yet.
fluffy on April 18, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Howard Stern suggested moving Israel to the desert between Mexico and the US and naming it the 51st state. I think it’s a grate idea, there are many Israelis who would love to be Americans (who wouldn’t) and they already have the right spirit, they love the idea of taking a piece of empty land and make something great out of it :)
Michelle Dubois on April 18, 2009 at 2:31 PM
So I’m a liar because we disagree? Noting that you offer no alternative interpretations, and noting your attribution of malevolence, I take offense.
The Mt. of Olives is The Church, into which many Jews fled according to Zechariah’s prophecy. just as the Red Sea split in twain for the Hebrews, so the Church threw open her doors (split in two) to receive them.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM
I know you don’t mean that as flame worthy as it sounds.
There are PLENTY of God honoring believers who do not subscribe to a dispensationalist and/or Arminian eschatology. We can have spirited debates…but let’s not go overboard.
It is clear that the Israelites were chosen by God as a lineage and very, very special people. We were grafted in and though I do not subscribe to total replacement theology, I agree that many things have already occurred and many are yet to come…some which may not be literal.
But, we will see.
I defend Israel because, as a secular state in the region, they are a force for peace. That area is very special…
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Yes!
That is what gets me through the day…
katy on April 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM
It’s talking of “those who pierced Him.” Both the Roman Empire and the Jews saw Him, great and small.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM
I’d rather not say what demon I belong to since I’m attending a parish of necessity that is solidly conservative but not my first choice, which would be conservative Anglican.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 2:34 PM
There is that trick ‘and also’ preceding that bit.
I’m just another humanoid draining the oxygen supply, but two of those ‘every’ eyes are mine. My eyes have not seen Jesus. Someday, but not yet.
fluffy on April 18, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Glorious.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Certain people in the area of central Italy must be smiling.
mankai on April 18, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Israel and the West are aborting our way into slavery and extinction.
mankai on April 18, 2009 at 2:41 PM
HornetSting, I am so with you. I don’t know how any American could hold their head up if we allow this to happen to Isreal. They have a right to life as we do, and we all need to walk a mile in their shoes. Potus is the biggest piece of crap, and if it weren’t for the fact that there are others (a few decent people) on board AF1, I would pray daily that it would fly into a mountain. I have never hated someone so much in my life, and I try not to, but there it is, ogambi is the devil…..*sigh*
clinker46 on April 18, 2009 at 2:42 PM
according to man not God…There is no written word that gave this directive.
He is the Alpha and the Omega. He is God. He IS the Word. He was with Moses on Sinai.
katy on April 18, 2009 at 2:44 PM
And it was created by Americans, not illegal aliens who want to turn our country into the holes they created and left behind. No quarter, if you want to live here, then you must be part of the American lifestyle, and you must pay your own way and do it LEGALLY!!!!!! What part of ‘illegal’ don’t people get?
clinker46 on April 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Sorry Akzed, didn’t call you a liar, just that you are believing a lie. There’s quite a difference. Sort of like saying your popping my bubble from your first quote! And if you read your last paragraph above and try to make splitting of the mount of Olives a church opening its doors, your alegory really sounds lame.
And being a Christian does not mean that to believe the prophecies of Israel you have to give up your faith. There’s plenty of prophecies for the church. Some of them coincide with prophecies of Israel, but not all. So I guess you think that Israel becoming a nation in 1948 had nothing to do with Scripture and God’s plan. He just threw them all away and what happens happens? I think not.
Christian Conservative on April 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM
The Bible claims that ALL nations will come against Israel during the time of the end. Expect her to become even more and more isolated.
jimmy2shoes on April 18, 2009 at 2:52 PM
This is what happens when anything can mean anything… as long as some seminary approves it.
mankai on April 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM
The challenges are certainly great, but in Israel there’s no wavering. We are prepared to fight, we fought in Lebanon for a month, now in Gaza for another month – These are preparatory engagements and training as these are the fronts we will need to engage versus Iran. Clearly the willingness is there, we prepare day & night for the obvious failure Obama is destined to achieve re Iran.
Our homefront is the strongest in the world, I don’t know what Michelle Dubois is talking about up there, we are prepared to absorb rains of missiles on our cities with 90%+ public approval / support rates while our soldiers fight for weeks on end!? The Muslims flee and hide like cowards at the 1st sign of trouble, they prefer to target & fight children – I would not wager against Zion.
It is not the 1st time we are forced to go against the desire of a US President (Osirak, Iraq / Reagan). We did it before, we’ll do it again. This is a nation of Mothers who send their sons, daughters, brothers & husbands to fight in defense of our homes & way of life – Pls don’t underestimate our resolve, will or skill. We can clean the Iranian clocks and if forced that is exactly what we will do. Iran is the one with the alarming domestic disapproval, lack of free will & freedoms, rampant unemployment, a destitute economy and beset by drugs..
saus on April 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM
I will part ways with you on this one. You do not believe that the epistles are also the word of God? What other revelation do you have but the Word and general revelation?
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM
saus on April 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM
I don’t believe we ever apologized or thanked you for that.
Thanks for the bold action. Sorry our President didn’t support you.
fluffy on April 18, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Yeah, that’s where it breaks down for me. i believe in the sovereignty of God and His purposes. It is difficult to believe that all prophesy about literal Israel is totally replaced by the church. With that said, I do not believe (nor do I believe scripture affirms) that the bride of Christ is a proverbial “parenthesis” in redemptive past and future and the real, REAL children are the Jews.
Jesus did weep for over their imminent destruction and rejection of truth.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Ed,
Israel is not finish. The world thought the Arabs will distinguish the Jewish state within a decade of its founding. By 1967 the world thought the “Jewish Experiment” was over. It’s been 60 years since the founding of the great state of Israel. Israel will fight its enemies wherever they may be. People don’t give the Jewish people much credit when it comes to survival, but yet we have out lived the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Assyrians, etc. Israel will find a way to stop this new Persian threat. Ajad/Dinnerjack is the new Haman of our time and he will meet his end too.
On that note, that is why Israel needs to implement Lieberman’s plan of seceding Arab border towns to the PA. They don’t want to be part of Israel, fine with me. Israel is happy with its loyal Muslim population of Druze and Bedouins.
Am Yisrael Chai!
Translation: The Jewish Nation Lives!
Lance Murdock on April 18, 2009 at 3:04 PM
This is totally different. Reagan loved Israel. There was still the Cold War on, for which Israel was a most important ally.
Things are totally different now. The Precedent hates Israel (more than he hates the US, even). There is no COld War and most Americans don’t remember what the Cold War was or who was on what side. This is the first American administration that wants Israel to die. There is no comparison, whatsoever.
I left Israel in 2005 when it became clear that Sharon was hell bent on giving away Gaza for nothing. That was the signal of the deterioration of the situation to an unmanageable point. I had gone to Israel to vote for Sharon. The guy was a strategic genius, but he turned around in his last sentient years and set Israel on a course of self-destruction as bad as anyone from Meretz could have wished.
Israel can still make it through this situation, but it will take actions different from any Israel has ever done before. Israel always fought nothing but defenses, never even attacking the enemies’ cities and bringing real pain to their populations. That’s why Israel’s had to fight the same war over and over, every ten years. This is the end of that cycle. Either Israel fights an offensive battle this time (as the Allies did in WWII) or the cycle will end badly for the whole world.
Israel is indeed alone. Her only allies in the world are American conservatives (which includes mostly Christians). Other than that, the rest of the world is happy to see Israel die and the more blood the better, so far as they are concerned. My Meretz and Labor friends still don’t understand this. Times are as dangerous as they have ever been.
progressoverpeace on April 18, 2009 at 3:07 PM
What’s important about this is not the fate of Israel. The Bible clearly states that God will protect Israel from extinction.
The problem is what will happen to the United States for not supporting Israel.
“And I will bless them that bless the, and curse him that curseth thee…”
fossten on April 18, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Mountains represent kingdoms in Scripture:
Gal. 2:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 3:08 PM
Israel did not exist when this was written. Ro. 4 teaches that Abraham believed, and it was accounted as his righteousness. And the promise was through Isaac, not Jacob.
Why should the shadows be reborn once the One who cast them has come?
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 3:10 PM
After condemning who wanted the OT laws to be binding on Christians, Paul wishes “peace upon the Israel of God,” Gal. 6:16. Given the context, does he mean national Israel or the Church.
Compare this too, from Hebrews 12
:
18For ye are not come unto the mount (Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29For our God is a consuming fire.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Yes I do. The Bible from Gen to Rev. is the Word of God.
katy on April 18, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Rev. 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 3:29 PM
What/who do you think was behind his turn around?
katy on April 18, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Oh, ok. I was thinking you were putting undue weight on certain passages/books over others in your interpretation.
So awesome. I agree with everything you said. My father has loved teaching us of your nation’s history. He continually said, “Israel is so special.” I will pray for your peace and success.
Please, do whatever you can to tell your fellow citizens not to trust a THING out of Obama’s mouth. I read things and am astonished at some Jews’ own self loathing. It is so sad! Please know that the vast majority of the right (contrary to our DHS) loves Israel and the left are the true anti semites. Why both the blacks and jews continually vote for these wolves is quite disheartening.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 3:32 PM
I have no idea, at all. I was absolutely floored by it. A man who had been so brilliant for decades had just thrown away everything he stood for and gave a major gift to the pals without requiring anything in return – which Sharon certainly knew is something that should never be done with arabs, as it sends all the wrong signals.
I was never able to come up with a reason for his change of thinking, other than Bush was pressing him hard on that idiotic Road-Kill Map. Maybe there was some alleged quid pro quo with the US and Iran? I don’t know.
Interestingly, after I left Israel, all of my lefty Israeli friends ended up being Kadima voters who campaigned for a guy they used to sneer at me for supporting, to put it mildly, just a year before.
progressoverpeace on April 18, 2009 at 3:39 PM
8: While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up from among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth uttering great boasts.
9: “I kept looking
until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days
took His seat;”
Daniel 7: 8-9
Mr. Klein needs to fix his attention on The Ancient of Days and quit letting the Lucifer lovers bother him.
Believe.
oldleprechaun on April 18, 2009 at 3:48 PM
It’s called the Samson Option.
newton on April 18, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Is Israel turning right? Are you seeing any awakenings in the US Jewish pop. in terms of Obama?
katy on April 18, 2009 at 3:55 PM
If I know anything at all, I know that if Israel is destroyed the destruction of the West will follow soon after. I don’t need the Bible to tell me this Obvious Reality.
EVERY citizen of every Western nation should take all possible measures to defend Israel; to not do so is to acquiesce in your own destruction. The forces which threaten the ‘Jewish State’ are the same forces which threaten every civilized decent person in the West
Wake up, everyone.
WE ARE ALL JEWS…….
Janos Hunyadi on April 18, 2009 at 3:56 PM
A little. But there is a lot of fear after they saw the world’s reactions to the Gaza operations. I can’t really speak to Israeli attitudes, too closely, but some of my Israeli friends who never emailed me anything but a note here and there had sent me mailing-list video links trying to prove how Israel was being smeared in the world press and at the UN. They were still deluded as to what the bigger picture was (they wanted to force the UN to bring racism charges against Hamas, or some such drivel) but they knew that something was very different.
Not much. Most of my friends are fairly conservative, with quite a few being hard line conservatives. But they were always that way. My liberal Jewish friends still don’t seem to have any problems with The Precedent. They are as clueless as they ever were. But … that’s how they’ve always been.
progressoverpeace on April 18, 2009 at 4:04 PM
sorry my friend, but things are playing out as the dispensationalists have long maintained…Israel stands alone…IRAN is her primary enemy, and Iran will lead a confederation of nations as Ezekiel said, against her…no one will come to her aid…I have been expecting the US to ABANDON ISRAEL for decades, and now we see it coming to pass…
When that happens, Russia will join in, and Israel will be defeated, except they have a certain Person, shall we say, on their side….Iran is in for an ugly surprise, and they deserve what they’re gonna get…
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 4:31 PM
this ‘replacement’ theology has led to much anti-semitism in the history of the church. Israel exists again, as the Lord Promised…the church will not become Israel, and Israel is not the church.
the very existence of Israel should tell you this…try reading ‘the road to holocaust’ by Hal Lindsey…
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM
You must, therefore know that there are two means of fighting: one according to the laws, the other with force; the first way is proper to man, the second to beasts; but because the first, in many cases, is not sufficient, it becomes necessary to have recourse to the second.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on April 18, 2009 at 4:36 PM
I think he’s wrong. Israel is the only other country I would fight for. The UK, unfortunately, have pissed me off too much over the past couple of years.
Blake on April 18, 2009 at 4:49 PM
You’re not alone in this. There are many (non Jews) who would give up what is left of their home (which is almost no more) and go to Israel and fight.
katy on April 18, 2009 at 4:52 PM
I did. I also read Gary Demar and Peter J. Leithart’s “The Legacy of Hatred Continues: A Response to Hal Lindsey’s ‘The Road to Holocaust.’” You should too.
I wonder when Hal’s going to write a book on marriage. After all, he shoud be an expert after four wives.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 5:08 PM
So what did Paul mean in Gal 4 and Hebrews 12 when he talked about the Church taking Israel’s place? What does Gal 6:16 mean?
Doofusationalism was unknown in the Church until John Darby made it up in the early 19th century. Scofield popularized it in his notes, and Lindsey has made million$ off of it, but only a sliver of the Church believes it today.
Akzed on April 18, 2009 at 5:12 PM
“but Israelis should close the country and leave,”
Just like before and after WWII they will have nowhere to go.
davod on April 18, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Israel stands alone – because Barack Mugabe won’t lift a finger to help them.
And that’s a damn shame.
Embarrassing. Our President is a disaster.
HondaV65 on April 18, 2009 at 6:04 PM
Bring them to the U.S. – I’m sure we can turn them into Republican voters after experiencing the loss of their country and watching Barack Obama do nothing to help them.
HondaV65 on April 18, 2009 at 6:05 PM
I don’t believe Israel will ever be completely destroyed because I believe they have a Divine Protector. That said, I don’t buy into newspaper eschatology. I think it’s dangerous to try to shoehorn today’s events into your end times view because if it doesn’t fall the way you believe it will you can leads others astray and set yourself up for ridicule and marginalization (see Hal Lindsey).
I urge many of you to listen to John MacArthur’s series Why Every Calvinist Should be a Premillenialist. Like MacArthur, I’m a reformed premillenialist. I believe in the Doctrines of Grace yet I also believe Christ will reign on Earth in His millenial kingdom. As far as the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, I am not dogmatic about that. I can make the case for a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib rapture. For obvious reasons I am all for a pre-tribulational rapture, but I won’t swear I know how it plays out. Regardless, I see God’s promises to Israel through Abraham as absolute. They were unilateral promises based on God’s character, not on Israel’s righteousness. In Galations 3:15-18, the Apostle Paul reiterated that the Abrahamic character was a promise from God. And that promise wasn’t based on law. And if you read the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 15, there doesn’t seem to be any wiggle room. God affirmed his covenant with Abram unilaterally.
Now in order to be an amillenialst, you have to believe God didn’t mean all those “I shalls” and “I wills” in the Old Testament. Many reformed believers who literally interpret Scripture on matters of salvation become spiritualizers in matters of eschatology. I believe they’ve got a problem with consistency. As for the varieties of preterism, well I’ve given their views careful consideration many times but I remain disuaded.
The John MacArthur series is available for free download here… http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/300 If you don’t have time for the entire series, just listen to the first sermon. It’s more of an overview or lecture than a sermon.
flyfisher on April 18, 2009 at 6:12 PM
The Apostle Paul said that Israel will eventually be saved, but God is now going among the Gentiles to call a people for His Name among them. He has never abandoned Israel, even though it seemed so for a long time. And nowadays, things are happening that makes the “replacement” theology that you love to express as nothing else than a lie from Hell.
“Replacement” theology, which was encouraged by the Catholic Church over many centuries, had the unintended consequence of an ever-increasing anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe and other places. That includes Jews who had to escape to other lands or hide in plain sight – as in, converting publicly while worshiping in the Sabbath in private, or even replace their names with other, more “Christian”-sounding ones.
I know this because, after some research, I found out that my grandmother’s ancestry is Sephardic – Spanish Jew. The Sephardim had to leave Spain to other lands, including North Africa and the Middle East, after 1492 with the Inquisition in its apogee. My grandmother’s ancestors took on a modified version of their Sephardic surname before they escaped to the Canary Islands. Later on, they sailed to the Americas, where they mixed with the rest of the population. One of those people with that surname is none else than my 96-year-old grandmother – yes, the woman who taught me about the Bible and Jesus. The same woman who did so by reading to me a Scofield Bible.
And in that same Bible, I learned that God picked a providential time to bring back Israel from its exile around the Earth, and to bring them back as one body, and to never again separate them. That’s in the Book of Ezekiel: you should read it some time. And in the Book of Daniel, a time of trouble for Jacob is discussed, along with the protection of Michael the Archangel – Daniel 12:1. Look it up.
And as that Scofield Bible said, it has come to pass. Jews from all over the world are coming out of the closet, going through the conversion process, and some are making the pilgrimage to Israel. And don’t be surprised to see many dedicated Christians find Jewish ancestries as more genealogical records are opened to the public, as it has in the last ten or twenty years.
As a born-again Evangelical Christian, it is an honor – I repeat: an Honor – to have the blood of those who transmitted the Oracles of God. I am not ashamed of my Jewish ancestry, just as I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.
As such, I can tell you with all confidence, to screw you and the horse you rode on, that anyone who still believes that Israel no longer has the Divine Protection to really need his/her head and heart examined, “to make your calling and election sure”. Because if you still believe that crap, then you’re a latent anti-Semite, and therefore, no friend of mine.
newton on April 18, 2009 at 6:13 PM
TAKE. IT. EASY.
It is unfortunate to see such vitriol amongst believers as if this were one of the stipulations for Christianity. I, for one, believe that total replacement theology is borderline heretical as I do full preterism, however, I also am pretty sick of hearing John Hagee’s ilk tell reformed believers that we are somehow not a part of te communion with Christ because our interpretation varies to a degree. This is a sad blot on our faith to hear such stridency where there should be passionate debate, yes, but certainly no baseless charges of anti semitism. sheesh.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 6:20 PM
thats a cheap shot I would expect from the wacko left-wing stooges…
I didn’t know YOU were SOOOOOO perfect that you could be the first to throw the stone!!
moron.
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:29 PM
you really are an idiot. its happening around you…and all you can do is close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and say “ALALALALALLAL”
you sound like a left-wing stooge.
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM
galations 6:16
everone is saved the same way…doesn’t mean that the church replaces Israel…your intepretation is ‘fanciful’ to say the least, and anti-semitic. as we’ve seen thoughout church history.
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:34 PM
but you’re not upset by that cheap shot at hal lindsey, by mr. ‘holier than thou’??
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:35 PM
“A geat civilization cannot be conquered from without until it destroys itself from within ” ~~Ariel Durant. Watching our president bow to a Saudi prince and swapping spit with Chavez doesn’t inspire hope for the future. I realize Obama is a shill for his handlers, but this is so obvious, its embarrassing.
volsense on April 18, 2009 at 6:35 PM
I agree. Passionate debate is to be expected. But remember, not all who call His name are His. Now that’s not aimed at any single commenter in this thread. Mine is a broader point. There are many who read and study Scripture in an attempt to acquire knowledge and so they can be right. They give mental assent to facts of the faith, but their hearts show no indication of the winsome work of the Holy Spirit. True christians ought to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.
I recommend all Christians read John Newton’s (the great Anglican clergyman who penned Amazing Grace) A Guide to Godly Disputation.
flyfisher on April 18, 2009 at 6:38 PM
absolutely true. that whole ‘replacement theology’ ‘british israelism’ is anti-semitic as hell…its the whole reason for it…because they have one little problem…where IS Jesus????
they have to ‘spiritualize’ the whole bible….and the ones who believe this, like demar, and hannegraf, are hate-filled wackos.
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:39 PM
I agree and I will take that recommendation to heart. Right now, I am studying Owen’s, Mortification of Sin and it’s basically kicking my butt. The Puritan’s would not like me saying “butt,” ah, but…hmmm. Well.
I didn’t see the Hal Lindsay remark. I don’t think we should disparage the man…just the argument. That said, I am not Arminian nor dispensationalist. I lean more heavily on the covenants of God.
HANNEGRAF? Are you serious? Have you met him? He is a precious man. Please be careful what you are saying about these people as should we. Anti Semitism is serious, yes, but…c’mon.
From my limited study, I believe that the church IS the focus of the Lord Jesus…and the Jewish race was the precious chosen race to carry the truths of scripture. But, I do think many things have already been fulfilled and we can err on the side of over analyzing and attributing too much to the National state of Israel when the Lord is concerned with his Bride, in which there is no Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female.
Mommypundit on April 18, 2009 at 6:47 PM
I’ve heard hannegraf to know I do not like him…its his way or the highway…and he is the aribitor of what is christian and what is not…the arrogance and condescension are too much.
you see those who disparage dispensationalism say that we believe people are saved by different means…not at all..what we are saying is God made promises to Israel…and He is not done with them…otherwise Israel would not exist as a nation again…nations and leaders rise and fall at His command…we just tend to take the bible literally, and don’t try to ‘spiritualize’ it away, like the preterists do. and the whole ‘nero was the beast’ is rather foolish when John didn’t write Revelation until 90AD or so…
right4life on April 18, 2009 at 6:52 PM
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