The odd leap in the interrogation memos
posted at 8:48 am on April 17, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
I spent the evening yesterday reviewing the Bush administration’s Office of Legal Counsel memos on enhanced interrogation techniques. I took a particular interest in the memo on Abu Zubaydah, the Bybee memo, the first memo that the OLC issued in order to instruct interrogators on the boundary of their actions. The memo discusses a series of escalating interrogation techniques:
- Attention grasp
- Walling
- Facial hold
- Facial slap (insult slap)
- Cramped confinement
- Wall standing
- Stress positions
- Sleep deprivation
- Insects placed in confinement box
- Waterboarding
Of these, only the last four even approach the notion of torture, which has a clear definition in statute:
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from–
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe
physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
This passage is key to the opinion issued by Jay Bybee in this case. Bybee explicitly refers to this statute, and addresses each of the requested techniques in detail. The sleep deprivation was meant to cause disorientation, not panic, and interrogators proposed to limit the stress positions. Introducing insects into the cramped confinement might have caused panic, except that Bybee insisted that the insect chosen could neither bite nor sting, and that Zubaydah had to be informed of its innocuous nature — making it an annoyance at worst.
However, I’m puzzled by a passage on waterboarding and Bybee’s legal conclusion afterward. On page 15, he writes (emphases mine):
We find the use of the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death. … Although the procedure will be monitored by personnel with medical training and extensive SERE school experience with this procedure who will ensure the subject’s mental and physical safety, the subject is not aware of any of these precautions. From the vantage point of any reasonable person undergoing this procedure in such circumstances, he would feel as if he is drowning at the very moment of the procedure due to the uncontrollable physiological sensation he is experiencing. Thus, this procedure cannot be viewed as too uncertain to satisfy the imminence requirement. Accordingly, it constitutes a threat of imminent death and fulfills the predicate act requirement under the statute.
Although the waterboard constitutes the real threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition on infliction of severe mental pain or suffering. … We have previously concluded that prolonged mental harm is mental harm of some lasting duration, eg, mental harm lasting months or years.
If Bybee had rejected the notion that a subject felt the fear of imminent death in waterboarding, then his approval of it might be defensible. However, that’s not the case. Bybee specifically states that it does meet that definition. But because it only last a few moments or minutes, depending on the number of times the procedure is applied during a single session, the “imminent death” clause is supposedly immaterial.
This makes no sense at all. Using Bybee’s reasoning, the “threat of imminent death” part of the statute would have to last for months or years in order to qualify as torture. What could possibly qualify in section 2 (C)? We’d have to make a subject smoke for several years and threaten him with cancer.
Imminent threats, by definition, are short-term situations. If one ignores that, all sorts of actions commonly considered psychological torture would be approved. False hangings, for example, could be permissible as long as they didn’t cause serious physical injury. Faked firing squads would also be permissible. Gas chambers, injections, one could go on and on, and all of it would be legal because it doesn’t last for “months or years”. The more obvious conclusion from the statute is that procedures creating an “imminent threat of death” in and of themselves create lasting severe mental pain, which is what makes them torture.
I’d like to defend Bybee, but in this case, with this memo, I have to agree with the critics. Bybee turned 2 (C) on its head in order to justify the waterboarding request. Given the deep fears of further attacks, one can understand why Bybee wanted to give interrogators the greatest latitude possible, but this reasoning is insupportable.
Update: Rick Moran has more thoughts; I don’t agree with all of it, but Rick is always worth reading. I agree that Bybee’s memo reads like Bybee started off with the foregone conclusion that all of the requested techniques would be approved and tried to justify them by working backwards. The waterboarding leap especially smacks of that.
Update II: People are missing a subtle but important point here. The comments are filled with “if my family was threatened, I’d cut off fingers” assertions, but then you’d also be breaking the law. Bybee and the OLC were asked what interrogators could do within the law, and instead the OLC reverse-engineered a legal opinion to allow them to violate it. I understand why they did, but it still violated the statute.
That’s what was wrong with John McCain’s assertion that a president could just break the law and hope Congress justified it later, rather than rewrite the statutes to make plain what could be done in the “ticking time bomb” scenario. The law is supposed to hold all people equally accountable. If we foresee a need to work outside the law, then change the law to make sure it covers those situations.










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The US Army Field Manual, c. 1945, and I paraphrase, said that irregular combatants should be interrogated and shot.
I wish I could find one. I saw a photocopy of the relavent section many years ago.
Akzed on April 17, 2009 at 8:54 AM
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 8:56 AM
It’ll take a catastrophic attack making 9/11 look like child’s play to wake us up.
toliver on April 17, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Even then I worry that a huge portion would be like
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 8:58 AM
One of the interrogation memos even states that we have condemned other countries – namely Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, Algeria, Syria – for the same techniques we used.
cornfedbubba on April 17, 2009 at 9:01 AM
if we were to catch Bin Laden & waterboarded him, don’t you think he would know that we were just trying to get him to talk?
wouldn’t any high-level terrorist know this? or would they worry that someone would “screw up”?
kelley in virginia on April 17, 2009 at 9:02 AM
Using that rationale, so is DHS.
cornfedbubba on April 17, 2009 at 9:02 AM
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 9:02 AM
Just pokin fun at Jindal :p
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 9:03 AM
What we need is a Gou’ld sarcophagus. Then we could keep bringing them back to life for as long as it takes to crack them.
OldEnglish on April 17, 2009 at 9:03 AM
Wouldn’t it be great if the public could have this sort of finite detail, not about our most guarded national security secrets, but about how the administration coordinates its daily message with activist groups, PACs, and media organizations?
vinman on April 17, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Waaaaaa. They’re pouring water on my head. Waaaaaaa. Hell, watching an Obama speech is worse than that!
marklmail on April 17, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Out of curiousity,why is Hopey releasing this!
canopfor on April 17, 2009 at 9:05 AM
You’re focusing too much on the physical aspect and not the mental. They are saying if there is a prolonged mental effect that results it qualifies. So if you pull one of these stuns and it has an effect on the subject’s mental health that lasts months or years it qualified…the act itself doesn’t have to last that long.
That’s how I read it at least.
Furthermore, the way I read this states that if we simply notify the subject beforehand that we have medical staff on hand and that we won’t let them die then waterboarding is A-OK? Sounds like a good plan to me =P
Exit Question: Several states still use the electric chair under various circumstances and I know electrocution is a considered a form of torture. So my question is what is the difference between murderers and terrorist? At least murderers actually have a legitimate claim to have access to our justice system. Just saying…
Sqrl on April 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM
Wow Ed…..I’m impressed.
What is your opinion on the timing of the release of the memos and the Spanish judge dropping his charges?
strangelet on April 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM
Waterboarding is a form of mock execution and by definition is barred. It was a mistake for the Bush administration to engage in it, but these particular examples do not shock my conscience (unlike the dozen of so deaths due to stress positions, beatings and hypothermia that occurred during interrogations in Afghanistan and Iraq). And in certain dire circumstances, as a last resort, waterboarding might be justified.
Much of this was already known, so if we are going to debate it, let’s debate it.
I am against this being done because it is counter productive. There are better alternatives such as the old fashinoned interrogations we have done since WWII. Read this interview with Hugh Hewitt and Col. Stuart Herrington, who performed thousands of interrogations with the U.S. Army.
Mr. Joe on April 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM
To shift the MSM focus off of the Tea Parties and onto Bushsatan.
Just a guess.
Conservative_SAHM on April 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM
I’m troubled by this…even though I don’t care one lick if we are in danger and we have to do this to defend our population. Whatever.
What I don’t like is our enemies reading these memos and exploiting them.
Mommypundit on April 17, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Because it’s bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009?
Loxodonta on April 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM
You are sitting across from your three young children who are at the breakfast table rushing to eat before the school bus honks out front. Your husband is a banker and has already left for work. You hear a noise on the back porch and you get up to check if the dog is trying to get in. The door bangs open knocking you down – and three guys rush in with guns telling you to lie down and shut up – within seconds they tell you they are taking your kids and will hold them until you husband opens the safe at the bank. They have masks and hoods on. Before they leave, one of them falls to the floor and is having some sort of medical emergency. In panic the other yell to leave him behind – “Let him die!” and they flee with your children terror stricken. You get up and the man on the floor is alive but has had some sort of panic attack which induced loss of consciousness. You tie him up and go to the kitchen to get a knife. You ask him where the other men took your children. He refuses to answer. You calmly tell him that you will begin cutting off his fingers and any body part he has that resembles a finger until you get the location of your children. He laughs. Which stops when his first finger is severed. Three fingers later – you dial 911 and tell the police the location of your children, who are rescued within the hour. You are charged with attempted murder – the two men who abducted your children where released on a technicality due to the police basing their arrests on information obtained under “duress”. But your children are alive. Now tell me who wouldn’t cut off a finger to save their kids?
Cinday Blackburn on April 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM
Exactly, that’s the real question.
Why did supposed lawyers like Bybee throw logic out the window so they could justify stress positions and waterboarding and bug boxes – techniques that we describe as torture when Iran, Algeria, Indonesia do them – out of an irrational post-9/11 bed wetting fear? Who cares!
The real question: why is Obama telling us!
Basically, what I’m saying is: Obama should be prosecuted.
e-pirate on April 17, 2009 at 9:11 AM
More Kabuki.
When there is outrageous outrage, look at the slight of hand going on all around and under tables…particularly bills being passed. Or, yeah, tea party protests…liberals SOOOOOOOO Happy to have something else to talk about.
Distract distract.
Mommypundit on April 17, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Maybe the term water boarding outrage`s the bleeding heart
Liberals,
maybe its the phrase,
how about,fluid dispensing!!
canopfor on April 17, 2009 at 9:12 AM
The leftards are cheating. They’re pouring the water on his forehead and not over his nose and mouth. Wimps.
Blake on April 17, 2009 at 9:15 AM
Puppet Obama is just doing his part.. right on queue
gatorboy on April 17, 2009 at 9:15 AM
Eric Holder, Obama, and other Democratic beta-males must never have pledged frats in college. During my pledge class’s Hell Week, my fellow pledges and I got two hours of sleep the first night, an hour and a half the second night, an hour the third night, and 15 minutes the last night. I was so tired that I fell asleep for 45 minutes during an exam on the afternoon before the last night–with an active sitting right next to me trying to wake for all that time.
Hazing? Sure. Torture. No way. As long as their heads are still on their shoulders and scrotums are still in tact, I don’t have a problem with anything that’s been done to these people.
Grow up, Left. There’s no crying in the war on terror.
BuckeyeSam on April 17, 2009 at 9:16 AM
What, no mention of the caterpillar torture technique?
Conservative_SAHM on April 17, 2009 at 9:17 AM
Indeed, Canopfor
lets change waterboarding to
Alternative swimming
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 9:17 AM
They highjacked 4 planes, and killed nearly 4000 people in one day. They attacked us. They killed any westerners in their midst even ones who were sympathetic to their causes.
I know you are being sarcastic here,but I have to say it. Under that mentality,the flashback is that Bin Laden and radical muslim extremists created a nation of “terrorists” when they bombed the pentagon,the twin towers, and flight 93. More were created when they cut the heads off contractors, soldiers, and journalists.We could go round and round about who started it,but its been going on for centuries.
canditaylor68 on April 17, 2009 at 9:18 AM
The squeamishness about waterboarding to save lives is unbelievable – the outraged people at Amnesty International and other “human rights” organizations need to GROW UP!
Yes waterbording is torture by most people’s notion of it. It is interrupted drowning done multiple times so that the panic and terror of it is repeated (much worse than just downing once) but the method has proven to be a very effective in obtaining life saving information and the subject lives with body intact. Who truly would refuse the waterboarding of a terrorist even if it likely meant having his family and others blown up? People in authority, especially Obama, have a profound duty to grow up!
Chessplayer on April 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM
I didn’t think we’d ever see this day, but we actually found something that even Cap’n Ed won’t go out on a limb to defend and/or twist into some tortured criticism of Obama.
That should be pretty much all the evidence anyone needs to call these memos indefensible.
e-pirate on April 17, 2009 at 9:22 AM
I’ll take it that the good Col. Stuart Herrington never “tortured” anyone, so this argument made by those with similar backgrounds aren’t coming from experience. Would anyone ask sex advice from a virgin?
toliver on April 17, 2009 at 9:22 AM
That’s okay. Just don’t put a non-stinging insect in the room where you have them contained, because that’s scary.
capitalist piglet on April 17, 2009 at 9:22 AM
The conclusion is obvious. Take no prisoners lest you well be persecuted and prosecuted indefinitely for interrogating them. Kill them all on the battlefield, that is perfectly legal. It’s OK to blow their limbs off in battle but heaven forbid don’t waterboard them. What nonsense.
echosyst on April 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM
Since the day Islam was “invented.”
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM
That would be an interesting experiment, actually. We’d have to make sure that they knew their family wouldn’t really be blown up though, before we ask the question.
capitalist piglet on April 17, 2009 at 9:26 AM
Ed et al.:
Apparently, Bybee reasoned that while waterboarding represented the “threat of imminent death”, it did not meet standard 2 which was:
2) “Severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from – [threat of imminent death, i.e., waterboarding]
Does waterboarding cause “severe mental pain or suffering”?
It’s obviously dangerous just reading parts of memos and sections of code but it seems that Bybee is arguing here that there are two requirements needed to meet the legal defintion of torture: severe mental pain and threat of imminent death. The latter is met by waterboarding but not the former.
It seems obvious to me that if you think you’re drowning, that’s pretty severe mental pain.
Clearly (stop the internet), the waterboarding is the least defensible part of these techniques.
SteveMG on April 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM
Ed takes exception to one part of one memo and the conclusion is that all of the memos are indefensible.
“You honor, we’d like to use one of our peremptory challenges on this juror.”
SteveMG on April 17, 2009 at 9:30 AM
obama is embarrassing the country and this does in fact make us ‘less safe’, due to releasing tactical info and the message of weakness and retardation it sends to those that would chop our heads off if they capture us.
anyone have a link to how we Interrogated British Spies during the Revolutionary war under General Washington?
jp on April 17, 2009 at 9:31 AM
How can these alinsky-ites operate under the ends-justifies-the-means philosophy and use whatever means necessary when it comes to political opponents, but obstruct efforts aginst REAL threats aginst our security?
Huckabye-Romney on April 17, 2009 at 9:32 AM
Wouldn’t it be nice to put them into a “straight-line” long enough for these idiots to discover the 72 virgins are really 72 mother in law’s eternally yapping in their ears.
Rovin on April 17, 2009 at 9:32 AM
The best way to avoid a negative consequence is by not committing terrorist acts.
Live a productive and peaceful life and enjoy your herd of goats, your many wives, and serve your god in peace.
Take up arms and be killed on the battlefield.
Take up arms, get captured, waterboarded for 2 minutes and still live.
Choose.
John D on April 17, 2009 at 9:32 AM
This is how Nero allows Rome to burn.
do idiot stuff that results in Tax Protest Tea parties, in response to cover up that you stupidly release stuff like this to the world….its a downward spiral.
jp on April 17, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Do you have your own teleprompter or what?!
Shy Guy on April 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
or, support Live Birth abortion, really any abortion. heck, Obama is dropping drone bombs in Pakistan killing innocent civilians in some cases.
anyway, its a Moral nation the Left has to compensate for their lack of morality by playing this stuff up.
also, the Left holds to a Materialist philosphy for the most part. The only morality they really beleive in is that which furthers their cause, they reject any binding right vs. wrong stands, everything is grey and all that matters is the Ends, the means Justify that. Its why we can’t trust them.
in short, they made a Covenant with the Father of Lies.
jp on April 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
I must have read too many books about the WWII Pacific Theater to get very worked up about any of these techniques.
The Japanese put firecrackers in women’s bodily cavities (not talking about their mouths, or nostrils) and threatened to light them while their children watched. When they wouldn’t talk, it was “Anybody got a match?”
They bayoneted prisoners and pushed them in trenches filled with human excrement.
I’m not advocating torture, but we’re talking about non-stinging bugs and simulated drowning here. The men at Cabanatuan would have considered that a vacation.
capitalist piglet on April 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Wake up and look around the world.
Children in foreign lands are fighting wars
while our kids play video games and get high.
The world is getting harder and their are
more hardened terrorists being born everyday.
Obama’s policy of “appease to please” is going
backwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB7nMZOjxyw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIoJrrKixBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq2tECprZSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh30mUhI92c
izoneguy on April 17, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Your comment is a non sequitur. However to answer you, the electric chair does not leave lasting mental pain or suffering.
Old Country Boy on April 17, 2009 at 9:39 AM
C’mon Sam, get up to speed on the new left’s lingo. “We don’t have no stinkin’ terrorism.”
Rovin on April 17, 2009 at 9:39 AM
It amuses me that throughout history, torture, or more importantly, the THREAT of torture, has been used to get information.
Thousands of years its been used… and yet… it apparently never worked?
Wow, our Ancestors must have been really dumb…
/sarc, for those who are dumb, like our ancestors?
Romeo13 on April 17, 2009 at 9:39 AM
Yep, a snooze button is a crappy invention.
If you’re going to wake up, then wake all the way up, get your ass out of bed and get moving.
reaganaut on April 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Much as I’ve tried to care, I simply don’t give a flying f&^k about what we do to “enemy combatants”. There is not one being held that wouldn’t pull the pin on a grenade or slice a throat while chanting “Death To America”. Enough with the handwringing and the outrage, shoot ‘em. Shoot ‘em now.
Tim Zank on April 17, 2009 at 9:40 AM
the Hayden editorial today absolutely destroys obama for this
jp on April 17, 2009 at 9:43 AM
We’re trying to “annoy” them into talking.
I feel like I’m dreaming, and Jack Handey has been elected POTUS.
capitalist piglet on April 17, 2009 at 9:43 AM
“Bybee’s memo reads like Bybee started off with the foregone conclusion that all of the requested techniques would be approved and tried to justify them by working backwards.” Likely, though he gave us a hard time in law school if we were doing the same thing in his ConLaw class. He’s a super guy as personable and warm as can be, but he’s also deeply dedicated to the country.
esperpento on April 17, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Whatever anyone thinks about torture (most of which seems to be naive and stupid and unrealistic) the release of these memos is an act of treason.
Waterboarding is only torture in the minds of people who can’t think. Fear of dying, when one is not going to die, is NOT torture.
This whole debate is too stupid for words.
progressoverpeace on April 17, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Why is water boarding an issue at all? To protect 300 million Americans any means of gaining useful information is okay with me. I think that one surviving pirate should’ve been sent home to Somalia with one leg and a message that you don’t mess with the USA. What about our rights as Americans to be safe? Obama is a total assclown, tearing this country apart with class & race warfare and tired failed rhetoric that everyone is a world citizen. I am an American citizen. Period. Nothing else; no hyphens, no excuses, no guilt.
Yeah, water boarding hurts; makes one feel like they are drowning – who gives a rat’s ass – THEY DESERVE IT!! Will it give them wittle bad dreams for a few years? I hope so. It is okay to kill pirates (murder) but not okay to put water up a terror snout? WTF?? Please liberal crazies explain the difference? When our fellow citizens’ lives are on the line, will you be an American or just a yapping lap dog to another country’s ideals? Grow the f**k up & realize there is no NWO utopia around the bend, just more crazy ass terrorists worshipping a pedophile and wanting us dead.
Ris4victory on April 17, 2009 at 9:47 AM
I am sorry, but I can’t get my panties in a knot about some people who may have been waterboarded. If they were the captors, they would gleefully cut someone’s head off. I think the people worrying about waterboarding are really missing the bigger picture here. To avoid Gitmo in the future, let’s just kill them all in the battlefield, and not allow them to surrender. Jebus people, these terrorists have made it their life’s mission to kill us and they won’t stop until they, themselves, are dead. Dirtnap, bye bye time.
karenhasfreedom on April 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Back during the Clinton “administration”, there was a very popular teevee show called “Walker, Texas Ranger”, starring Right wing hero Chuckie Norris. In more than one episode, Cordell used at least 3 of the last 4 techniques to extract info from a suspected bad guy. He would hang them out of windows by their ankles, hold their heads underwater, and even threaten to put a burlap sack containing rattlesnakes over their heads.
Not once did I hear any complaints from the Left. Of course, had the same show been on when the evil Chimpy was President, there would be a totally different standard.
When, not if, the next major attack comes, O’bama won’t be blamed. It will still be Bush’s fault.
Del Dolemonte on April 17, 2009 at 9:49 AM
I think most are missing the point…. WHY THE H-LL would you release this document in the first place. Definitely a pre 9/11 mentality. I’d like to see a new poll on how many people now feel more safe. This administration is a disaster.
txag92 on April 17, 2009 at 9:50 AM
I wasn’t saying electrocution left a lasting impact (although in reality it most certainly does if the person survives the ordeal). I was pointing out that torture is legal to use on our citizens but our enemies are somehow deserving of better treatment. That is the real non-sequitor here.
Sqrl on April 17, 2009 at 9:54 AM
We may as well adopt a take no prisoners policy. Rush week for pledgies is actually worse. I guess The Art of War is no longer require reading.
mossberg500 on April 17, 2009 at 9:54 AM
I’ve been waterboarded. I am still here. Though some may differ, I am still of sound mind, and have suffered no long term effects from that experience.
We had this waterboarding discussion at great length a while back, and anyone who says this is drowning, or forcing huge amounts of water into the lungs of the captee, know nothing at all about the technique that was utilized.
Next time you are in the shower, take a face cloth, soak it, then apply it to your face, and then stand directly in front of the shower stream. Attempt to breathe normally. In doing this, you are in more danger of drowning than one is when properly waterboarded. Yet, the sensation is the same.
The fear derives from others doing this to you. You are not in control. Panic sets in. You now believe you are drowning. It becomes terribly uncomfortable.
If you believe that this will be repeated, or it is repeated, others are now in total control of you.
This is the basis for the technique. Not pleasure, not inflicting pain, but control. It is all about control.
Wild animals need to be controlled, made to be subservient.
When you believe that others have the power of life and death over you, and control you completely, then the technique and others have passed the first step into making a wild animal compliant.
Three AQ subjects were waterboarded. Three. We obtained a good deal of solid information from these three.
Caterpillars in a closed box work as well.
I was once placed in a slit trench in the dead of night blindfolded with hands tied behind me, and had a snake tossed in with me, and a plywood cover placed over the trench. I hate snakes. I fear snakes. An irrational fear, true, but it took a lot of sweat and presence of mind to control my fear when I could feel that snake slither around me, on me.
This sort of stuff is not done routinely to our captured enemies, and other than the 800th MP Brigade idiots at Abu Ghraib, there was no perverse pleasure derived from our enhanced interrogation unlike those those who took it upon themselves to humiliate captees at Abu Ghraib. These idiots were prosecuted and rightly so.
We have gelded ourselves as a Nation, evinced by our squeamishness over this entire torture discussion.
Real torture…relentless beatings, the breaking of bones, the cutting off of limbs, using hot pokers to brand captees, that sort of thing, we do not do, nor should we do, ever.
But, there are those who are steeled by their beliefs and desire to kill us that wouldn’t give a second thought to using the above real-torture techniques and worse on us. Not because we did it first, as some have claimed, but because they totally disregard the lives of those they capture. And because their goal is a far cry from the mere need to obtain critical information from an obviously recalcitrant subject.
This is the sort of discussion that transpired as our intelligence agencies attempted to make sure what we did was legal before doing such. That those discussions took place, and at a very high level of government, is a credit to those involved. We remain a Nation of laws.
coldwarrior on April 17, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Heh. I scream hysterically at the sight of roaches. This one would get me.
bitsy on April 17, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Ed, I agree with you but do not find it so clear cut.
IANAL but it seems to me that they simply focused on the “‘severe mental pain or suffering’ means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from-” section. IF the threat of imminent death did not produce prolonged mental harm, which they defined as lasting for months, then the threat of death was not torture because torture is defined in the statute as something that results in it.
I would suggest that the explicit inclusion of the threat of death in the list means that the authors intended to defined such threats as producing this harm whether they really do or not.
OBQuiet on April 17, 2009 at 9:56 AM
You seem to forget that a whole new type of war started on 9/11. A type of war that we had never seen before. Even the highly flawed 9/11 Commission admitted that we had to change our way of thinking if we were to prevent further attacks.
As I see it, “torture” can be defined by the people who went to work at the WTC in New York on a beautiful September morning, and then 2 hours later, thru no fault of their own, had to make the choice between jumping a thousand feet to their deaths or burning alive.
Del Dolemonte on April 17, 2009 at 9:57 AM
I’m curious, how do you know waterboarding is counter productive?
The fact that we have not had another attack on our homeland in seven years pokes a big fat hole in your theory.
Now that Hussein has barred it’s use, let’s see if we remain safe from attack for another seven years. Sadly, that will be the proof of the pudding.
fogw on April 17, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Can’t really say it any better than that, dude.
I just always find the silence deafening when another mujahid cuts off someone’s head. No lefty here dares to part their lips just a tiny bit.
Ah yes, but a cute little blonde CIA op. prancing around in her underwear around an AQ suspect?
HOLY COW! ITS THE END OF THE WORLD! WE’VE LOST OUR MORAL COMPASS!
AQ guy can trade spots with me. I’d love to get a lap dance down in Gitmo.
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 9:59 AM
so what is the half-life of the ‘fear of death’ while waterboarding?
Terrorist: Aaaah! Not the waterboard!
GI: That’s right you (*^#$ – strap him in good boys…
Terrorist: Stop! Stop! Praise be to Allah! (gurgle…gurgle)
GI: Now tell us where you’ve taken Jack Bauer
Terrorist: You will never know! Praise be Allah!
GI: I will give you one more chance… I know that you have Jack Bauer – now tell me where he is.
Terrorist: You think you are so clever with your water, but Allah has more power in his littlest toe! Praise be Allah!
GI: There is nothing we can do for you
Terrorist: (gurgle… gurgle)
Rinse and repeat (lol), only with each repeat, the terrorist loses some of the fear of the technique as he is just fine 5 seconds after each ‘session’
gatorboy on April 17, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Guys, the question on the table is not whether we think it’s acceptable or necessary or that we’ve done worse in other wars (I don’t doubt it), it’s whether the law permits these type of interrogation practices.
Some of the thinking in these memos is just indefensible. Legally that is.
SteveMG on April 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM
Gator, bear in mind dude boy jihadi has no idea when, if ever, he will get out of his current hell hole.
Throw some sleep dep, cold temps with light clothing.
Make dude boy jihadi a little thirsty
These interrogators are the ultimate mind f*ckers.
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM
I’ll disagree with Ed only slightly because Bybee specifically states that prolonged mental harm could last months and years. Not that it must last months or years.
I’d like to raise a practical question at this point; given the publicity/controversy/debate surrounding the use of waterboarding, and given the fact that bad guys adjust their interrogation-resistance techniques to what we’re doing, can we assume that anyone captured on the battlefield now can be legally waterboarded? It would seem so since this no longer applies.
… Although the procedure will be monitored by personnel with medical training and extensive SERE school experience with this procedure who will ensure the subject’s mental and physical safety, the subject is not aware of any of these precautions.
They’re aware now.
landshark on April 17, 2009 at 10:03 AM
coldwarrior on April 17, 2009 at 9:55 AM
End of discussion IMO. Thank you!
gatorboy on April 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM
I have a video of Saddams torture chambers, “Burried in the Sand”
wish it coudl be loaded to youtube, people would shut their whiney traps in a heart beat
jp on April 17, 2009 at 10:06 AM
My military buddies at school, and my dad have all told me about their POW training, SERE training, and all that good stuff.
Which leads me to my position that the gitmo dude boy jihadis have IT MADE IN THE SHADE compared to what mil-personnel go through with their training, as well as CIA officers.
blatantblue on April 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM
How long was Bush in office before the 1st mass protests against him were waged? Any one know? I venture to guess it was longer than a mere 3 months time.
Barry is scared and the timing of this “release” is evident.
Conservative_SAHM on April 17, 2009 at 10:08 AM
The real threat of interrogation and prosecution is coming to those whom are trying to expose Obama for the pathetic fraud he is.
Cybergeezer on April 17, 2009 at 10:09 AM
I’m afraid too many people have caught the liberal virus. So now our enemies have been handed a carte blanc to conduct anything they want and there isn’t anything we can do except fall back on the “moral high ground” of Obamorrisseyism. Soon we will be a nation of cindered cities, riots and chaos because someone in authority had their hands tied and couldn’t extract information to save the greatest bastion of freedom that ever existed on this planet. Yes all the blogs will be gone too. Hell on earth? You are asking for it.
wepeople on April 17, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Now, these would be the Brinks Home Security WHITE guys, right?
Seriously, folks. Ed wants to hold Bybee to some notion of judicial logic while any random reading of hundreds of Supreme Court cases illustrates what BS the legal world engages in every day. The Obama administration releases this? This is the best they have? I tell you what…let’s once again review the Obamoron’s legal reasoning on botched abortions and the child’s right to life after Sibelius’s personal butcher, masked as a doctor, engages in torture designed to kill. Give me an ‘effing break. Ridicule these creeps. Don’t debate them. Mock them. Spit on them. Defecate on them but surely don’t engage them in some show of reasoned debate. They despise this country and would do anything to hurt it. Understand that and you won’t worry so much about memos.
mr1216 on April 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Because its bright,sunny,safe day in April 2009?
Loxodonta on April 17,2009 at 9:10PM.
Loxodonta:
Thank-you for the link,on Kristol’s article!
Thats exactly the problem,the Liberals think they can
talk peace with the Jihady’s,but the real Liberal war
is on the Right Winger’s and the Republican Party!:)
canopfor on April 17, 2009 at 10:14 AM
You know, it’s funny. The idea of some jihadi warrior type, perfectly willing and probably somewhat eager to decapitate someone with a dull knife, afraid of a bug. And not just any bug. A bug that he’s been reassured can’t sting him.
Oy.
capitalist piglet on April 17, 2009 at 10:15 AM
* Attention grasp
* Walling
* Facial hold
* Facial slap (insult slap)
* Cramped confinement
* Wall standing
* Stress positions
* Sleep deprivation
* Insects placed in confinement box* Waterboarding
All done to OUR military forces during SERE School – know it first hand. There is a reason WE do it to our own – because we know the enemy will do it too or even worse. SERE has been in operation for DECADES, long before Guantanamo. So saying using these methods will cause our enemies to reciprocate is nonsense as we have known they will do it anyway. History proves this to be true and factual.
roxer on April 17, 2009 at 10:15 AM
I definitely agree with Cinday Blackburn, however, according to the definitions of torture, then any thing causing mental anguish in any form that lasts for any amount of time would be included. Ed, if I follow your thinking, then you say there is a disconnect because in 2(D) it states that we are not allowed to threaten death but then Bybee allowed actual potential threat of death in order to allow water boarding.
But if I am following the new age of Obama speak, then all he really had to do was change the name of the word “death” to “cease having heart beats” and we would have been good to go. I am learning that changing the names of things changes them. Rendition under Bush – bad. Relocation under Obama – creative and excellant use of resources.
Sorry Ed, but you are picking at straws. If you follow the approved interrogation methods in the strictest sense, then it would be torture, absolute torture, if you required them to sit on plaid, or to be subject to farts, or to have their hair parted the wrong way. One mans torture is another mans vice. But that is the problem with definitions.
I don’t understand why water boarding is considered evil. To me, it doesn’t cut off a finger, it isn’t connecting testicles to batteries. If you continue to follow the logic train, then just asking questions or tricking them into giving info could/would cause permanent mental harm. Just think, if you ask them where is the next event and who is going to do it, and they tell you, and then they have overwhelming remorse and start flogging themselves, you have violated the above description of excessive interrogation techniques.
The better questions would be, what can we do? Nothing? How does that work?
I’m with Cinday Blackburn.
Ohio Granny on April 17, 2009 at 10:20 AM
I was JUST about to make the same comment. After reading this part, if I’m the terrorist back home, I’m thinking, “Don’t worry, we know the magic trick is fake…Just yell and scream like they’re REALLY hurting you and they’ll let you free”.
I respectfully AGREE with Dick Cheney; The release of this information DOES put us at greater risk.
HarryStar on April 17, 2009 at 10:31 AM
Ed, you may be misunderstanding the meaning of “prolonged mental harm” here. Mental harm does not refer to the action of waterboarding someone. It refers to the consequences.
For example, Ahmed is waterboarded, and after it’s all over, he shakes with fear and loses his appetite for the rest of the day. The next day he is OK. The mental harm is there (he is effed up for a day) but it’s not “prolonged.”
But suppose the experience leaves a more lasting effect. Suppose for years afterward, Ahmed wakes up in cold sweats, screaming, several times a night. He can’t fall asleep because he is afraid of the nightmares. He gets panic attacks every time it rains. That’s a lasting mental harm.
How long you are performing the action that’s harming Ahmed is irrelevant, according to Bybee. What matters is how long the adverse effect lasts. He concluded that it wouldn’t last very long and so he allowed the waterboarding.
factoid on April 17, 2009 at 10:34 AM
We briefly considered showing Abu Al-Splodey a baby butterfly but discarded the idea!! 1!1!!OH NOES!1!1!! Dikc CHaney and John Ashkkkroft MuSt PaY!!!! Start the tribunals now!!
Chickyraptor on April 17, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Actually, Bybee’s statement makes perfect sense out of the legal text.
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from–
Therefore one must ask whether (C) causes or results in prolonged mental harm. If it does not, then it does not mean “severe mental pain or suffering.”
Now the text of the law might therefore permit all of those situations which horrify the Cap’n. Who knows, they might even horrify Bybee. But as was pointed out, his job was to interpret the law, not express his predetermined moral or policy conclusions.
As was suggested, some are letting their desired results and their sentiments about the implications determine their interpretation of the law, but in this case, it doesn’t appear to be Bybee.
John E. on April 17, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Under some of these definitions, well-made horror movies qualify as instruments of torture. That’s how unserious this country has become.
progressoverpeace on April 17, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Good night, Wesley. Sleep Well. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.
ace tomato on April 17, 2009 at 10:57 AM
So, when our soldiers (like John McCain) come back from war reporting that they were tortured, this is what we expect that they went through?
I mean, if this is our OUR POWs are going through, then what is the big deal? My dad probably treated me more roughly when disciplining me. Now, I have to consider that I was tortured as a child under these guidelines…are we going to start arresting parents for torture too?
Sarcasm off: Seriously, it degrades the importance, impact and severity of what our soldiers have suffered in the past for our government to define these things as torture. When we imagine the horrors of some hot, cramped camp in some third world hellhole, do we imagine them slapping our POWs or holding their faces? Hell no, we know they are maiming them, using drugs, and giving real pain to those that are held. To
Geministorm on April 17, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Then that is a problem with the Law.
Tim Burton on April 17, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Ed,
John at Powerline disagrees with your assessment of the memos as well.
Especially noteworthy was this quote:
“confirmation of the fact that thousands of American servicemen have been waterboarded and subjected to the other techniques in question, as part of their training–a practice that continued at least up to the dates of the memos.”
Ed, I was one of those servicemen. I do not believe and don’t know any other servicemember who believes that he or she was “tortured”
Danger on April 17, 2009 at 11:06 AM
Ed,
Sorry, I forgot the link.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/04/023347.php
Danger on April 17, 2009 at 11:07 AM
From reading Bybee’s entire memo, it seems like he and the Gitmo interrogators were taking special precautions, as far back as 2002, to ensure that Zubaydah was NOT “tortured”, by placing very specific limits on what could or could not be done to him.
The main problem with releasing this information is that, if terrorists KNOW that, if captured, they will not be sleep-deprived or held in a “small box” or “large box” for more than a specific time period, they will train themselves to endure the treatment for that amount of time, knowing that the treatment will be eventually relaxed. These techniques are definitely more effective if the detainee DOESN’T know how long he needs to endure them.
They talked about introducing harmless insects into the confinement. Since Muslims hate pork, how about introducing a baby PIG into the confinement? That might make them talk!
Of the interrogation techniques specified in the Bybee memo, being forced to kneel while leaning back 45 degrees seems like the worst. But maybe I just have bad knees. Maybe I need to train by praying more…
Steve Z on April 17, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Unless one used the “necessity defense” and it was accepted.
SteveMG on April 17, 2009 at 11:14 AM
That’s a good point and I’d like to add that the extent of the effects will also depend, in large measure, on the individual. Some people are better equipped to cope with a mental anxiety than others.
landshark on April 17, 2009 at 11:14 AM
The greater issue is the motivation for the leak. Clearly, the Obama administration is obsessed with the public confessional.
moxie_neanderthal on April 17, 2009 at 11:24 AM
“That’s a good point and I’d like to add that the extent of the effects will also depend, in large measure, on the individual. Some people are better equipped to cope with a mental anxiety than others
landshark on April 17, 2009 at 11:14 AM”
For Islamic jihadis, failing at their mission is likely to have a long-term adverse affect. I guess we shouldn’t have captured them in the first place (/s).
Danger on April 17, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Do any Americans believes that applies to any liberal democrat? Those who do are either delusional, or liars.
I could arguably create an “imminent threat of death” by my mere actions without any physical contact, or brandishing of any weapons. I could do so with a look. I HAVE done so many times. Did I break the law?
IMHO, the pussification of America is what causes the deaths of thousands of innocents every year.
DannoJyd on April 17, 2009 at 11:27 AM
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