How do we stop piracy?
posted at 8:49 am on April 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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Now that the crisis has passed with the Maersk Alabama and Captain Richard Phillips, along with three of the four pirates holding him, we need to determine how to avoid this in the future. Fred Iklé has a couple of common-sense suggestions in the Washington Post today, mostly by returning to traditional methods of exterminating piracy:
So why do we keep rewarding Somali pirates? How is this march of folly possible?
Start by blaming the timorous lawyers who advise the governments attempting to cope with the pirates such as those who had been engaged in a standoff with U.S. hostage negotiators in recent days. These lawyers misinterpret the Law of the Sea Treaty and the Geneva Conventions and fail to apply the powerful international laws that exist against piracy. The right of self-defense — a principle of international law — justifies killing pirates as they try to board a ship.
Nonetheless, entire crews are unarmed on the ships that sail through the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. Shipowners pretend that they cannot trust their crews with weapons, but the facts don’t add up.
We’ve heard a number of excuses over the past couple of weeks for why crews have no access to weapons when traveling through the Gulf of Aden and other dangerous waters. Some ships have access to non-lethal weapons, such as sonic guns, designed to create tremendous pain so that pirates can’t get aboard the ship in the first place. Once boarded, however, crews are unarmed and at the mercy of the pirates, a completely unacceptable choice given the wide knowledge of the existence of piracy. If the crew members themselves aren’t qualified to carry weapons — and there’s no reason they can’t be qualified — the shipping companies should hire security forces for ships passing by the Horn of Africa.
Iklé has another good suggestion:
The international right of self-defense would also justify an inspection and quarantine regime off the coast of Somalia to seize and destroy all vessels that are found to be engaged in piracy.
This should actually be the next mission for the US Navy after freeing Phillips. We don’t need a quarantine and inspection to identify some of the boats and ports in question; I’d bet dollars to donuts we’ve already identified most of them. Our next step after killing the pirates on the lifeboat is torpedoing their ships in their home ports without inspections or even warnings. Somalia’s failed state can’t impose order on these areas, but if the pirates become a liability rather than an asset to these facilities, they’ll get the heave-ho soon enough.
In the future, we don’t need the lawyers and the FBI negotiators, and we especially don’t need to legitimize Somali “elders”, either. Iklé has that right; piracy is not a bank robbery. The entire point of piracy is to capture ships in territory where no nation can claim sovereignty and therefore work outside the civil law. The proper response to that is military, not some notion of cops and robbers. When pirates find out we’re serious, and when enough of them wind up at the bottom of the ocean, they’ll think twice about seizing American or Western shipping.
Update: JD Johannes had been gaming out this confrontation, and came remarkably close to the eventual conclusion days ago. Be sure to read his post.
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Genocide?
coldwarrior on April 13, 2009 at 3:32 PM
This is a good opportunity to eradicate Piracy once and for all. If you see a boat with about 5 or 6 guys brandishing AK-47’s and RPG’s, it’s pretty safe to assume that they are not out on a fishing expedition or whale watching. They should be blown out of the water immediately sending a message that it will now be very dangerous to be a pirate.
But this is not important. I am still waiting for my free gas and Mortgage to be paid.
Scorched_Earth on April 13, 2009 at 3:34 PM
While I and millions more would agree that to handle pirates, killing or maiming them is the answer.
But guess what? In today’s political and progressive International law and in general, and in the views of governments, you can’t kill or maim, even if those ones you kill and maim are trying to do the same to you.
Of course, it is well known that the pirates only want money and have never killed or maimed anyone. They treat their captives well (except for the odd beating once in a while) and they release them and the ships and cargo upon receiving their bounty.
After all, to the poor pirates this is just business. They have no interest in terrorism nor murder, just a honest living taking millions from those who have those millions and ways of making more.
It’s just a re-distribution of wealth…with a pirate flair, and I’m sure that Obama understands this and is willing to go along with the pirates efforts to feed their poor families and to build a better world for themselves.
Welcome to the 21st. century.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Papa Ray on April 13, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Dangerous? I don’t know. I think in some circumstances, underuse of force is more dangerous than overuse.
I don’t think we need mass bombing of Somali ports. But I don’t think that precludes us attacking pirate strongholds/ships at port.
Actually, I think this is an excellent opportunity to use Letters of Marque, something I thought we should have used against al Qaeda. Send out Hunter-Killer teams, military or private, to attack these thugs. We have intelligence on them… let’s use it. Pay bounties on them.
We don’t have to engage in activities that (were Somalia not a failed state would) amount to Acts of War. But we do need to assert our authority and ability to protect US flagged vessels at sea.
JohnGalt23 on April 13, 2009 at 4:00 PM
I don’t know if this was already posted but here is the hard to find full interview with the crew , shouted from the ship (I had to locate it by searching the quote of the one crewman, “tell the president to …..”). Whenever I have trouble finding a big news story in the search engines I get suspicious
According to this interview the pirates are a coordinated force. The ship had been pursued a long time before the hijack. And one crewman said the snipers were not Navy Seals but regular Navy. They said the ship rescue had been compromised by the publicity. And I don’t think they were praising Obama. They sounded angry about a long time problem for all ships
I hope someone captures the interview on their PC. I don’t have the means and usually when something is hard to find, it will soon not be findable
entagor on April 13, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Orange.
Warm milk and a sugar free cookie will help you sleep tonight if your heart hurts for the poor Muslim pirates.
BL@KBIRD on April 13, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Perhaps this gentleman needs to take charge.
right2bright on April 13, 2009 at 4:13 PM
So what is worse…piracy of a ship in the ocean…or piracy of your kids monetary legacy.
Who is stealing the most money…the Somalian pirates or our government.
When they come in and “seize” a company, force the President to resign, withhold payments to its employees, threaten the company unless they “sign on” to their program, and charge them a fee for all those “services”…who is the pirate?
right2bright on April 13, 2009 at 4:17 PM
You’ll never eradicate piracy. But you can teach them to keep their heads down or get them blown off.
mojo on April 13, 2009 at 4:18 PM
I highly recommend that guys like Blackstone Security be hired to act as protection details for these ships. They can live aboard the ships – the shipping companies can contract them and this will provide a whole new line of work for trained military folks who are separating from the armed services.
There was no excuse for that ship to be transiting where it was without a protective detail aboard. Piracy is nothing new in that area although – Piracy against US flagged ships IS A NEW DEVELOPMENT – one that has only occured since Obama was elected President.
The pirates never once attacked a US flagged ship while Bush was President … hmmmmm.
HondaV65 on April 13, 2009 at 4:37 PM
Big difference … there is no functioning government in Somalia, they was a functioning government in Iraq.
Monkei on April 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM
That’s not true and has been discussed on here, with links provided.
Monkei on April 13, 2009 at 5:27 PM
Gee, maybe GM should not have taken federal bailout money? Borrow from someone else who doesn’t have it.
Monkei on April 13, 2009 at 5:29 PM
The answer is probably a combination of options. These merchant ships have security forces while in port, why not change the law or whatever is holding them back from doing so hire the same firms to place units onboard. I think what you would find is some bean counters at these firms figuring out that piracy is right now part of doing business. Sure they would not mind the US Navy stepping in and helping out, that cost does not come out of their pockets, but if they have to hire security forces to stay onboard at sea then I am sure they had someone figure out the cost to do business that way vs just paying the ransom.
Monkei on April 13, 2009 at 5:32 PM
According to the crew of the Alabama, let the Navy have at pirates. The crew say that the pirates should never have been allowed to become the organized criminal strike force that they are; and that the media helped the pirates and endangered the American Merchant Marines and the Navy as well.
Coldwarrior links to a marvelous new ship for shoreline battles.
RightWing links to the video of the Alabama crew trying to set straight the media sabotage of their having been under pirate attack for a WEEK.
maverick muse on April 13, 2009 at 6:16 PM
Gee, maybe when you offer money to someone, you should stick to the original “deal”. There was nothing in the bailout that said the execs. have to go.
Don’t you think that should have applied then to Fannie Mae? And also applied to the people responsible for its failure, like Barney Frank? Same with Freddie Mac, did you see any execs get fired? Or just hired by Obama…see any Senate overseers get taken out?
Maybe because the unions didn’t tell them too…
The pirates never rob themselves…
right2bright on April 13, 2009 at 6:25 PM
Because your U.N. has sanctions against merchant ships being armed…that is what the foolish liberal organization did, disarm the merchant ships so they become easy pickings for pirates.
right2bright on April 13, 2009 at 6:27 PM
BTW, that is what the mafia used to, it is called “protection racquet”.
That is what liberals don’t get, “freedom” is not doing whatever you want, it is not taking from some and not others.
Obama is a pirate, and is asking for “protection” money…the pirates are doing the same.
Obama is “disarming” business, by removing free trade…
One just has a law degree, the other no degree…but they both have the same objective.
“Steal from those that have, so those that have not will”.
right2bright on April 13, 2009 at 6:31 PM
So, your base contention is that anyone armed on the high seas should be treated as a Pirate…
And yet others here are adamant about ARMING Merchant ships…
Put those two together and you have a really nice situation.
Romeo13 on April 13, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Piracy is an act of war.
Johan Klaus on April 13, 2009 at 7:25 PM
There were innocents in Japan and Germany…………………and Pearl Harbor, Poland, France…ect. War is hell, but surrender is not an option. Remember Bataan and Corregidor.
Johan Klaus on April 13, 2009 at 7:41 PM
Bring back Q-Ships.
Have the US Navy purchase a harmless looking Containership Merchie. Crew it with US Navy and Marines
Then modify a couple of the containers with 3 CWIS units in a container Port and Starbord.
When Abdul, Achmed and Muhamnmed raise their P*ss and little RPG drop the side of the container and light off the CWIS. Give it about a 15 second burst from all 3 CWIS units (I dunno what that comes to, perhaps 100,000 rounds of DU and HE??) . Make sure you have live video feeds going out to the internet and news agencies zooming in on the foamy red froth that is left.
Repeat as necessary
If we weren’t so PC, catapult a couple of dead pigs into the froth and re-mix with another 10 second burst.
Someone with a better grip on history might be able to tcorrect me.. I seem to remember that there was a problem with pirates in the Med in Renaisannce times. The papacy outfitted a bunch of gold leaf covered galleys. The trick was they carried the heaviest ordinance of the time. Piracy problem temporarily solved (Again, that is an old memory and it might not be accurate)
bullseye on April 13, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Please….
The Merchant Marine would love a new union classification….gunner.
One 40mm, or even a single 50 cal in a gun tub and the pirates go bye-bye. We don’t need rocket science, we just need a CPO with good eyesight.
Limerick on April 13, 2009 at 8:29 PM
+1
Sounds so simple, and yet I’m sure the UN will get involved.
Upstater85 on April 13, 2009 at 8:50 PM
For some reason I had always assumed that these ships had a few guns in a locker and that the captain and the first officer had a key to it.
Lemee guess: They don’t because of provisions in their insurance.
Dr. ZhivBlago on April 13, 2009 at 9:07 PM
“we need to determine how to avoid this in the future.”
give Somali a bunch of wii’s.
no 16-year old captains will be have time for mischief.
notagool on April 13, 2009 at 9:31 PM
^^This
HondaV65 on April 13, 2009 at 9:42 PM
That would be categorically false. They may or may not have been Seals but those were definitely snipers. I’ve never seen or heard of a “regular” Navy sniper. Outside of Special Boat Units and Seals they don’t do anything more than a familiarization at the range.
The security detail posted to the Alabama may not have been Seals.
jdkchem on April 13, 2009 at 10:12 PM
State sponsored piracy is an act of war. Piracy is a crime on the high seas.
JohnGalt23 on April 13, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so if injury be done to a man it ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on April 13, 2009 at 10:14 PM
My aim, then, was to whip the
rebelspirates [updated}, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.- William Tecumseh Sherman
MB4 on April 13, 2009 at 10:17 PM
My aim then was to talk tough on camera, aided by my faithful companion Sir Teleprompter, but to behind the scenes apologize to the undocumented ship unloaders for all the sins of the evil America and the evil Europe and to offer bailouts, billed to America’s kids and grandkids credit cards, to the downtrodden victims who are obviously just trying to support their families in what would be a prosperous land if not for the evil colonialists, like Winston Churchill.
- The One
MB4 on April 13, 2009 at 10:25 PM
I kept hearing at work today from liberals that were excited… Obama gave the order to kill the Somali’s.
I said that’s good. Bush gave many orders to kill terrorists, capture, and detain them, but y’all never seemed to be too excited about that.
Oh, but that was different, Bush is a war criminal.
Sigh….
James on April 13, 2009 at 10:38 PM
Heres an interesting history tidbit!
The first ship on the scene was the U.S.S Bainbridge(DDG-96).
The last American flagged ship was the U.S.S Philadelphia,
in which it ran aground in Tripoli,and was captured by
Tripoli pirates,206 years ago!
The Captain of the U.S.S. Philadelphia,was the last Captain to lose a vessel,was Captain William Bainbridge,the namesake
of the U.S.S.Bainbridge(DDG-96)!
William Bainbridges revenge!!
canopfor on April 13, 2009 at 11:02 PM
Hanging is a good deterrent.
Then they could be gibbeted from the
LondonBrooklyn Bridge as was done for Captain Kidd.viking01 on April 13, 2009 at 11:05 PM
***
The Navy / Marine snipers did a good job. If the range from the snipers to the lifeboat was less than 100 yards this should have been a “piece of cake”–although timing all 3 shots together without hitting the hostage captain is a challenge–with targets hidden and appearing / disappearing.
***
However, the Navy never should have been involved–and the Captain never should have had to allow pirates to board his ship without a fight.
***
Arm all merchant ships–use bow and stern mounted quad .50 caliber servo (remote) controlled machine gun mounts with T.V. camera daytime, Infra Red, and thermal mode sights. These items can be mounted in weatherproof armored boxes and can be fired by remote control from the bridge.
***
Add 3 maintenance / arming / firing crew members to operate the guns. Use APIT (armor piercing incendiary tracer) ammo. Open fire at 2000 yards with a short burst to one side of the pirate boat. Sink them if they keep coming–see how far a bleeding pirate can swim in shark infested waters. RPG’s (Rocket Propelled Grenades) and AK-47 rifles have ranges of 300 yards.
***
Have all cargo ship companies band together and demand that all countries give them the right to arm their ships and to enter their ports. Embargo any country that refuses to give them the right of self defense–no cargo ships in or out.
***
Problems solved–cheaply–and fatally. No need for Navy, NATO, Air Force, Coast Guard, Nation Building, etc.
***
Rocketman
***
rocketman on April 14, 2009 at 12:03 AM
Hmmmm… not a SEAL… but do I need to send you copies of my DD214 with my Expert Marksman Certs?
There are a number of Naval personel, who have a bit more training than normal for Ships Self Defense… and Boarding Ops…
Romeo13 on April 14, 2009 at 12:05 AM
Yeah… aint Karma a biatch?
Romeo13 on April 14, 2009 at 12:06 AM
Last time that I looked, Somalia was a state.
Johan Klaus on April 14, 2009 at 12:07 AM
Then it has been a while since you looked.
Somalia is what is known as a failed state; that is, it has failed to maintain a monopoly on legitimate use of force.
This backed up by our own CIA, who on their World Fact Book Somalia page note:
Likewise, they do not have embassies in the US, nor does the US have embassies there. Although there is a Transitional Federal Government, they do not control the country, including the capital, Mogadishu.
in short, to call Somalia a “state” is a joke.
Further, assuming some sort of state apparatus in Somalia, do you have evidence that apparatus has sponsored these pirates?
JohnGalt23 on April 14, 2009 at 12:41 AM
Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Johan Klaus on April 14, 2009 at 12:49 AM
There are NO federal of international laws prohibiting ships from carrying firearms and the excuse that shipping companies don’t want to pay insurance on ships that carry firearms is pure hogwash, Insurance would be a mere pittance compared to what would be payed in ransom. Again, the U.N. has bluffed countries into disarming people and making them VICTIMS.
Sonic weapons are a joke, so are fire hoses because firearms and RPG7 have a FAR greater range than either.
I sure as HELL wouldn’t work for a shipping company that traveled anywhere close to Somalia without being able to take my firearms, if my carrying a firearm every day in combat for our military and in law enforcement was good enough to protect this country, it should be good enough for me to carry to protect myself and my crew on a U.S. flagged ship.
nelsonknows on April 14, 2009 at 12:54 AM
Right on.
Johan Klaus on April 14, 2009 at 12:56 AM
Are you high, or just stupid?
No. I also don’t have evidence that they were sponsored by Russia. On that basis, do you advocate bombing Moscow?
Once again, piracy in and of itself is not an act of war, and we cannot hold the citizens of Somalia responsible for the actions of pirates that aren’t acting with the backing of a state that, in fact, doesn’t exist.
JohnGalt23 on April 14, 2009 at 1:24 AM
Change the name to “unauthorized seizure at sea” and the name of those who carry it out to “extralegal entrepreneurs”
Stickeehands on April 14, 2009 at 1:46 AM
The onlything that might work is temporary 3rd party gaurds just for those waters (The Swiss?. Captains and owners do not like guns on their boats because of the possibility crew mutinys. Crews do weird things when they have been at sea for months on end.
Owners also do not like shooting because pirates could escalate to torpedos.
percysunshine on April 14, 2009 at 7:35 AM
Interesting. This one line puts it all into perspective. Disrupt commerce and traderoutes..just one more tool in the islamofacist terror toolbox. No Quarter.
Alden Pyle on April 14, 2009 at 7:50 AM
Not practical:
Launching torpedos from skiffs? Dude.
Ak’s and rpgs are cheap, readily available, disposable, and virtually untracable..torpedo systems..not so much.
Training an uneducated, 16 year old, drug riddled, Somali skinny to spray and pray with an AK is a little different than getting him to install, maintain, and utilize the elctronic guidance systems of a torpedo system in the 3rd world open sewer these savages and pygmies call home.
Alden Pyle on April 14, 2009 at 8:02 AM
Pretty good summary.
I would just add, “safe rooms” on board for the crew to retreat to.
Basically, one merchant ship that fights back and kills all the pirates will set the tone…the pirates will have to find some other line of business.
Right now it is “easy” pickings, with a minimum of hazard.
In fact if the insurance companies were involved on both sides, I would say the “pirate” insurance for disability or death would be much less then the container ship crews.
right2bright on April 14, 2009 at 8:49 AM
What, you think they’ll buy a submarine?
We’re talking about a bunch of semiliterate apes with a bare minimum of ANY useful skills. I could probably outshoot them with a deer rifle, even as little as I practice about firearms!
Dark-Star on April 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Is it true that the pirates now have captured 4 boats today?
Yep, Obambi’s a hero!
ORconservative on April 14, 2009 at 10:14 AM
The left always resorts to name calling when their arguments fail.
Johan Klaus on April 14, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Apparently both stoned and stupid.
JohnGalt23 on April 14, 2009 at 12:07 PM
We never learn from history, do we?
Thomas Jefferson I think would be a little PO’d right now to see we’re back into this mess again.
But now things are different-we have nukes.
I wish we would use them on somebody deserving. It’s like having a gun you never get to shit.
Gathering dust in the closet.
Badger40 on April 14, 2009 at 1:21 PM
OK. I am mystified as to how I made that spelling mistake!
Badger40 on April 14, 2009 at 1:22 PM
There’s a very simple solution. Declare 50 mile wide “No Float” zone in which anything that floats and is deemed not to be a legitimate mechant vessel is blown out of the water, no questions asked.
TrickyDick on April 14, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Mine all the Somali ports. Problems solved.
Spitfire9 on April 14, 2009 at 4:07 PM
So the problem is the area is to large for the Navy(Navies) to patrol by them selves, keep an eye on the whole area.
Okay how bout this.
Back to the Future
Have Merchant ships deploy “UAV like” blimps tethered to the merchant ships.
The blimps could have sensor packages like RADAR, FLIR Cameras, GPS and communication ability.
These blimps could give the crews a heads up on any boat approaching them, day or night 24/7
AND
The RADAR info could all be sent and monitored at some location(s) giving the Navy a HUGE, real time “picture” of the entire area.
Start with that and add “less lethal” systems like LRAD to by time for the Navy to respond.
And as a last resort arm the crews.
DSchoen on April 14, 2009 at 4:23 PM
“Bring back Q-Ships”
Yes add Q-Ships to my “Back to the Future” plan!
DSchoen on April 14, 2009 at 5:16 PM
The wise Editors at the Seattle Times tell us: Piracy is a business model without regard to politics or religion — desperate people organized to survive. They also tell us: Piracy passes as a national industry, offering employment and income.
.
Every criminal organization in the history of the world has based its economics on exactly that model.
.
It is up to the civilized part of the world, which consists of ‘countries’ headed by ‘governments’ (the more democratic the more civilized), to encourage these desperate people to change to a different business model – one which does not use weapons and violence as tools of the trade, and which does not extort its ‘income’ from its rightful owners.
.
Nor should said civilized countries dally in endless palaver and anguished hyper-concern for ‘international law’. International law was created in the first place to suppress piracy, the more overwhelmingly the better. Any individual country which takes up a military cudgel and abolishes as many ‘pirates’ as possible is acting exactly in harmony with international law. And the more spectacular the abolition the better, to ‘encourage the others’ to change their business model from seizures to service of their fellow man.
Insufficiently Sensitive on April 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM
How do we stop piracy?’
FORCEFULLY.
With bullets.
with as much cruelty as you can muster.
severly.
in the view of the wold media to prevent further attacks.
dthorny on April 14, 2009 at 10:36 PM
Look at history for what Jefferson had to do to eliminate the piracy that plagued our nation when it was new. I see no salient reason that less force should be used this time around. A really solid and painful lesson is about all that will put them to sleep again. Pirates should be treated to summary execution whenever caught, interrogation optional.
{^_^}
herself on April 14, 2009 at 10:47 PM
A MA-2 .50 cal would do wonders to discourage pirates. Plenty of range, well over a mile, and it blows off body parts if it hits you.
We need to get all Thomas Jefferson on these pirates.
Mojave Mark on April 15, 2009 at 1:09 AM
What, you think they’ll buy a submarine?
We’re talking about a bunch of semiliterate apes with a bare minimum of ANY useful skills. I could probably outshoot them with a deer rifle, even as little as I practice about firearms!
Dark-Star on April 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM
I disagree. They could also use mines. The first IEDs in Iraq were not very sophisticated, but they got better. The point being that the owners of the cargo would rather not escalate things and loose the entire cargo. They could arm the ship, but they have not for the reasons I stated; mutiny and retaliation.
As the BBC put it “Somali piracy has been transformed from something very basic into something far more sophisticated in recent years.
The pirates have graduated from being simple fishermen with rickety boats and maybe a couple of rusty guns into high-tech operators armed with modern weapons travelling in expensive speedboats.
They have been able to do this because they have earned so much money from ransom payments.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7995170.stm
How expensive is an IED anyway?
percysunshine on April 15, 2009 at 8:20 AM
Step one. Decide if piracy needs to dealt with or not. Some on the left claim that the root cause is social injustice. Sounds like the US middle class should liquidate some of its wealth and send it to Somalia. The left would be happy to establish an organization to facilitate. Reluctantly, this organization would need staffing, and management, and steering committees. And at the end of the day, the pirates will assess whether their personal take is higher using an AK-47, or a handout of what’s left after the do-gooder organization builds a US middle class lifestyle for its employees.
Step two, assuming you have dismissed the never-achievable social injustice nonsense, is to decide if the economics are tolerable or not: does marine insurance and liability insurance add intolerable surcharges to the goods shipped through the vulnerable sea lanes.
Step three, assuming you don’t like paying a piracy tax, as well as a fat-cat bailout tax, then you want some action taken.
What action then? The problem is the risk/reward ratio for pirates is out of whack. Too much reward, too little risk. The risk must be increased. How? In every legal way.
I like the idea of honey pot targets – cargo ships bristling with weapons and “crew” specially trained. Surprise!
If all that fails, we’ll have to resort to the ultimate weapon – gulp – shudder – the strongly worded letter from the UN.
shaken on April 15, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Neanderthal!!
tom on April 15, 2009 at 1:34 PM
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