Video: The most “unpatriotic” thing you’ll see this year
posted at 7:15 pm on April 10, 2009 by Allahpundit
Well, maybe not the very most: No doubt we’ll be told the tea parties rate awfully high on the treason scale, too. I’m tempted to call this a ready-made campaign ad for the GOP once the inevitable — and they are inevitable — Obama tax hikes are finally announced, but reminding the poorer 50 percent of American households that they’re freeloading on taxes does not a brilliant populist strategy make. No wonder libertarians can’t win elections.
Trim out the stuff about relative burdens, though, and replace it with estimates of the average household’s bill for Great Society II and you’ve got a sweet spot set to go for the midterms.
Blowback
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Fantastic. Thanks AP.
brogers on April 10, 2009 at 7:18 PM
I understand your point, but I actually like this video as is. It’s not so much a statement of defending the rich, as illustrating the lies in the salesmanship in the current administration.
Spirit of 1776 on April 10, 2009 at 7:21 PM
According to the trolls it is the red states not blue voters who are freeloading.
CWforFreedom on April 10, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Let me illustrate this way. The Rebel Economist made the very obvious point that a majority of people think they can spend their money better then the government. Moreover, regardless of bracket, the majority of people think they are paying too much.
The result then is the ability for Biden to get up there and act like a clown – as if the crowd is the only one being patriotic – ie they are doing the heavy lifting. They aren’t disposed to think they are free-loading off the rich. So I don’t think that they are reminding 50% they are freeloading.
Spirit of 1776 on April 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM
Reason TV has some of the best videos, like this one.
By the time the next campaign season starts, I’m sure there will be plenty of red meat.
jcheney on April 10, 2009 at 7:24 PM
The Republicans *NEVER* run with the good ideas that bubble up on Youtube.
DaveS on April 10, 2009 at 7:28 PM
Well, the simple fact is that those with more have less need of the marginal dollar. How much is needed to live on? How much is for showing off? And how much of that showing off is needed?
The idea that everyone should keep what they earn is rather ludicrous, as is a flat tax. For starters, we can’t change the tax system into a new one. We can just tweak the numbers. Second, the value of a dollar to a millionaire is far less than that same dollar to someone below the poverty line. Thus to fund government it is logical to take more dollars from those with more to take.
I wasn’t always semi-Marxist, but poverty gives you a whole new outlook on life. You begin to understand the lie of the American Dream. It doesn’t work out that everyone can retire a millionaire if they invest wisely. Not everyone has the drive, luck, or cunning to climb to the top. Besides, why should being rich be important?
Anyway, I say tax the rich. They benefitted from the bubbles of mortgage and stock market, and they will benefit again when the recovery comes. Now that things are tough, it’s time for them to cough up the funds for those who are unable to survive.
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 7:28 PM
This meme that the rich don’t pull their weight in society is classic stalinist projection. It is the poor that don’t pull their weight. And the richer you are, the more people you pull along with you. Rather than punishing the successful, we need to punish the poor. You punish bad behavior and reward good behavior. You punish failure and reward success. But in America, the opposite is government policy. The less you earn the more of a free ride you get. The more you earn, the more they punish you. That discourages the very people who we need to participate the most.
The solution to this problem is to increase tax rates as income goes down. That will put a fire under the asses of people who, heretofore, have not had much of a reason to work harder, smarter, or longer because they get to keep almost all of what they make, then some.
keep the change on April 10, 2009 at 7:28 PM
I paid $6K+ MORE in income tax THIS year than LAST year.
My collie says:
Mostly, I just feel poorer.
CyberCipher on April 10, 2009 at 7:29 PM
Kinda makes you want to study hard in school, put in long hours at work, miss vacations and your children’s early years trying to invent something that will benefit all mankind, so you can employ thousands if not millions around the world……………
………….. and make a decent buck along the way.
Naaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh……………
Never mind, why bother…….?
Seven Percent Solution on April 10, 2009 at 7:32 PM
CWforFreedom on April 10, 2009 at 7:21 PM
And yet, it’s those same trolls that vote for the Federal government taking money away and redistributing it. Kind of schizo, isn’t it?
snickelfritz on April 10, 2009 at 7:33 PM
It’s time to punish the achievers.
Kini on April 10, 2009 at 7:33 PM
I wonder if it has ever occurred to idiots like Biden that the rich have resources, they could stop working and go by some islands and just say to hell with it. It is not as if they are going to starve.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:34 PM
Yeah, I think about this whenever I hear it said we don’t have a “progressive tax structure.” Hard to get more progressive than this.
I wonder how this compares to other nations. Is there another country in which the Top 10% of income earners pay a comparable percentage of taxes?
DarkKnight3565 on April 10, 2009 at 7:34 PM
Why not just tell them that their employers (aka the upper 10%) are going to shitcan them because their boy Obama wants to tax the hell out of “the rich”. No more 50-inch TVs from China, no more trips to Disneyworld. Just shitcan city, from now on. Go cry, call Obama and ask him for a job with his monopoly money. Real wealth will flee to friendlier shores.
I think that the day this thing passes, millions and millions of jobs will disappear, for good.
China doesn’t have as many morons as we seem to these days.
They see this little clown of a President and laugh. The future is Asian, after this. No doubt about it.
And as far as Obama’s favored parasite class – serves ‘em right, the dumb bastards.
TexasJew on April 10, 2009 at 7:34 PM
So if the top 5% pay 60% of the taxes, what percent of the wealth to they control? Also 60%???
That would the numbers in the video into perspective!
Is that then still unfair?
The wealthy may well work harder and even smarter, but do they really work THAT much more?
PeterReaper on April 10, 2009 at 7:35 PM
How long has it been since you contributed to society?
That is nearly the silliest well written pile of sour grapes I have ever read.
ericdijon on April 10, 2009 at 7:37 PM
I just hope all those who voted for change to sock it to the rich, now they are going to ‘pay their fair share’ and it is going to be much lower than bho said. I am having a tiny smile. You voted for bho, you pay!
L
letget on April 10, 2009 at 7:37 PM
Does anyone know the answer to this question? If not, could someone find out?
Senators and Congressmen/women do not pay social security taxes. Their salaries are in the upper $100,000′s. BUT…. do they pay taxes on the expense accounts that they enjoy to give bonuses, take their trips and fly back and forth between DC and their homes? They get a ton of our tax money to play with. That is money we pay – just what do they pay? Pelosi is a multi millionaire (non-union businesses BTW). So is Boxer and Feinstein. Let’s find this stuff out.
suzyk on April 10, 2009 at 7:38 PM
In his fantasy world, they would just eat spam. That would make him happy.
sherry on April 10, 2009 at 7:42 PM
Sounds to me like you’re just a lazy ass.
Tim Zank on April 10, 2009 at 7:43 PM
PeteReaper:
No one is saying they work harder. The hardest I ever worked was when I had a dairy farm and I doubt if I made minimum wage if you considered the hours I put in…and I was the one who was responsible for paying the taxes.
I would assume that guys like Bill Gates control a great deal of the wealth, after all they created the wealth. If the idea is to make it fair, then cut Congress’s pay. I am sure I work harder than Nancy Pelosi does, but unlike Nancy I am not worth $25 million.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:44 PM
That’s not your place or Uncle Sam’s to decide. People work for their money to improve their standard of living.
Yes, the idea that people should keep what they make is insane. Do you listen to yourself?
The words “can’t” and “won’t” aren’t interchangeable. We can overhaul the rest of the government but not taxes? Bull.
Yes, let’s see how much people below the poverty line are paying in taxes.
Wow. I don’t even know where to start from that. I’ve been in poverty, too. But you know what? I busted my ass, got an education, and worked two jobs. I got my head above the water, just as many millions — in fact, most Americans — do.
Really? What’s your idea of rich? Obama’s is $250,000. People who make more than $250,000 benefit from things other than the mortgage and stock market. And guess what? Those that benefited from the market were also suffered when it fell.
You have a very isolated, lazy ass view on life. You seem to think that people who work their way up from poverty, get an education, and bust their ass should have to give away what they earned. You seem to think that what others earned you’re entitled to. Now, get off the library computer and go back to sitting under your overpass, dreaming of the days when the wealth will be redistributed.
amerpundit on April 10, 2009 at 7:45 PM
The wealthy may well work harder and even smarter, but do they really work THAT much more?
PeterReaper on April 10, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Yes, they do. They treat life seriously, and do the right thing. These are the entrepreneurial and professional classes – the one group that this country cannot afford to lose. They provide the majority of the jobs, patents, competitive ideas and success in this country. These skills can be transplanted elsewhere, and will be lost if they are punished.
Why reward bad bahavior? Wealth and success should be a goal of all Americans.
TexasJew on April 10, 2009 at 7:46 PM
It’s not an issue of whether the dollar is more valuable to the wealthy or the poor. It’s the issue of the use of the dollar by government to socially engineer society.
Spirit of 1776 on April 10, 2009 at 7:47 PM
Folks, you’re witnessing the typical liberal statist. There are millions like Viscount_Bolingbroke who think that your money belongs to others. They believe that people who wasted their lives away deserve to take money from those who busted their asses and worked. This is who we’re fighting.
amerpundit on April 10, 2009 at 7:48 PM
How does that matter? The most convoluted and useless thing Marx did was try to define value in a way that didn’t rely wholly on what a person was willing to pay/trade for it. A person earns what the market will bear for what he trades, be it labor or property.
Jens on April 10, 2009 at 7:48 PM
The only wealth they control is their own. Just as you control yours. This is where marxism starts. It starts with a paranoia about a cabal of “rich” controlling the world. This is not economic theory they propose. This is the politics of class warfare and jealousy. That is what underlines the idea of the progressive tax system.
Since most people don’t make that much money, it would make much more sense to tax the poorest at the highest rate, and tax the rich at the lowest. Even 5% of a million dollars is $50 Grand. And 50% of $30,000 is only $15 Grand. But since there are so many more working stiffs than wealthy people, much more tax revenue can be raised this way, while at the same time, providing an incentive to create a more productive society.
More productive people consume less in government services in any case. You won’t find the well-to-do in hospital waiting rooms with a gun shot, or in jail, or in the courts, or taking government handouts, or calling the cops because they are having a fight in the trailer park. It is the “poor” who sap the public coffers of funds. Let them pay for what they take. Tax their lifestyle and the error of their ways.
It has long been observed that government is supposed to tax behavior they want to stop, (i.e. smoking), and reward behavior they want to encourage (green incentives). Yet when it comes to income and what we do, the government does the exact opposite.
keep the change on April 10, 2009 at 7:48 PM
How do you know that? What if they are owners of a multi-million dollar lawn care business and don’t own stocks and still live in the same house they bought 30 years ago. Why should they be punished.
AUINSC on April 10, 2009 at 7:49 PM
If you have not earned it on your own, you have no right to it! NO, you may not have my money, I want it for me. Go get a job or two and pay your damn bills, live within your means, Why do people on welfare have cell phones, ipods, new cars? What a frickin joke. If you want it earn it, stop being a leech and try to have some self-respect.
clinker46 on April 10, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Totally unsupported. That’s what we call an interpersonal utility comparison, and we cover the fundamental illogic of that position in the first five minutes of the first lecture on the first day of the first course in economics.
Declining marginal utility of money doesn’t mean that the marginal utility of Bill Gates’ billionth dollar is less than the marginal utility of my hundred-thousandth. It just means it’s less than the marginal utility of HIS hundred-thousandth.
Let me put it this way: If we know Sue is taller than Tim, and Bob is taller than Jane, are we entitled to draw inferences about the relative heights of Sue and Bob?
DrSteve on April 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM
You are correct. In Obama’s America, we have been and will continue to support their lazy asses forever. Barry said so!!
Tim Zank on April 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Viscount:
Poverty? You want to see poverty? Go to Venezuela, or Cuba, or Zimbabwe. Hell, the Russians were better off under the damn monarchists than they were the Soviets. The Chinese started to see a higher standard of living when they turned to a more open economy and they do not pay capitol gains taxes in China.
The truth is that Marxism does not feed the poor, it feeds off of them.
I know people who get more back from the federal government than they ever paid into it. And that is possible because some capitalist somewhere paid the taxes.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:51 PM
Achieving is racist..
jukin on April 10, 2009 at 7:53 PM
amerpundit:
I don’t think that people who are not rich, wasted their lives away. The system of capitalism will support only so many really wealthy people. However, that does not mean that people who are not wealthy should have the right to punish the wealthy.
For instance, I have a friend who lives on very little. He does not pay a lot of taxes, but he has never asked anyone for anything in his life. He has not wasted his life, he has lived it the way he wanted to.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:54 PM
And you can’t turn down the pay raise that she gave herself and her colleagues themselves, even though they work for you.
thomasaur on April 10, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Stupid *#&$^@%$ IRS, stupid *$& Biden, Stupid *@&$^@^$ Rangel, Stupid socialist *$@^$*%)*# Obama.
Stupid *$&@^$( ME for paying my $(*^E)(*e (*&%%^$ Taxes!
HornetSting on April 10, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 7:28 PM
…you, and those with attitudes like yours, are the danger to this country…. we all come into the world with nothing and are promised nothing…those of us lucky to be born in the USA, have the opportunity to do whatever we wish,become whatever we wish to be, be successful, or not, but nothing is promised to us……it is what it is…
t on April 10, 2009 at 7:56 PM
And this particular bubble came about because government wanted to give people who could not afford a loan, the right to own a home. Government created that bubble and a lot of the people who benefited from it were not and are not rich.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:57 PM
It is not simply about how hard or how much time someone works. It is also about taking risks, being innovative, and being willing to invest not only time and effort but also often much money.
What do you do? BTW
CWforFreedom on April 10, 2009 at 7:57 PM
Obviously everyone who isn’t wealthy didn’t waste their lives. I’m not poor, but I’m not exactly Bill Gates. It was just an extreme example of people who would receive the redistributed wealth under Viscount_Bolingbroke’s moronic plans.
amerpundit on April 10, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Hornet Sting:
Don’t hold back.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Put down your gubmint cheese sandwich and get to WORK! Millions of freeloaders are depending on YOU!
HornetSting on April 10, 2009 at 7:58 PM
amerpundit:
I know what you mean. Sometimes when confronted with an attitude like Viscount’s, it is hard to respond any other way.After all, it is so obvious that he is full of it.
The thing is Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor, but what he was really doing was taking back from the rich what they stole from the poor. What Obama wants to do is steal from the rich…what they actually earned and give it to people who did not earn it at all.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 8:00 PM
It sure doesn’t. Not a brilliant populist strategy, nor any other kind of brilliant strategy either. Like telling a woman she is fat and then saying – Will you go out with me? Not very seductive.
Besides, most of those “freeloading” actually do pay some significant to very significant amount of taxes, one way or another: social security tax, state sales tax, medicare tax, property tax, user fees, taxes that businesses pass on, lower pay because their employer pays high taxes, etc. Reminding them of all this would be much more tactful.
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 8:01 PM
CWFreedom:
It is about luck too and the over all markets and competition and all sorts of things. Look at athletes and entertainers, but whatever they get paid that money never did belong to Viscount. That is what people like that never understand.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Reason makes some of the best videos out there.
modnar on April 10, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Lets see, 26 years ago my father mortgaged his house to start his business. Over the years there have been ups and downs. During the downs he has had to pay in capital to keep it going.
Until the employees are willing to risk their own personal assets, there is nothing wrong with the business owner reaping the lions share of the reward.
redshirt on April 10, 2009 at 8:04 PM
When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don’t adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.
- Confucius
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Exactly.
amerpundit on April 10, 2009 at 8:07 PM
MB4 is right. The bottom 50% might not pay federal income taxes, but they do contribute. Every time they put gas in their car or go to the store or put in a days work pay into the social security system, they pay.
Some of them will get a lot back in taxes, but then again a lot do not. I am childless. I never got back more than $200 from the government. But I paid property taxes to support the schools just the same.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Another tax the poor pay is cigarette taxes, and the Democrats just raised them. Again. A carton of smokes here in Indiana is $52.80.
Terrye on April 10, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Tim Zank on April 10, 2009 at 8:12 PM
Great vid, great song. Battles is a damn good band.
madne0 on April 10, 2009 at 8:15 PM
I think I love you. :)
Aggie85 on April 10, 2009 at 8:16 PM
I’ve been working and paying taxes for 30 years.
My first “real” job was working the graveyard shift at 7-11 in a not-so-safe NorCal city.
I went to night school (while working construction full time) and got my BS at 30 and MS at 40 at my own expense.
After working my way up the food chain (the old fashion way) in information technology (field tech, tech analyst, project manager, sales rep, manager, director, VP) I feel I’ve earned every nickle I make today. No one gave it to me and I didn’t ask them to.
My wife and I make a little over $250k annually but in California that’s not a lot of money when you factor in the cost of living we have to deal with. We’ve put our daughter through school (cum laude – and yes she worked her butt off to get it) and we have a son who’s in his second year at UC Davis (about $23k a year including living expenses).
Our kids understand that hard work and playing by the rules doesn’t guarantee success. What it does do is give them a chance at realizing the American dream.
My father worked his ass off and never made more than $10 an hour in his life. Yet he (and my mom) managed to raise 8 kids who turned out okay even though we were raised in a 4 bedroom house with only one bathroom. They both stressed the importance of self reliance and hard work as the only solution to get ahead in life.
I’m as patriotic as the next guy and more so than most. “Spreading the wealth around” is not fair to the people who’ve worked hard, made good choices in life, and played by the rules.
Smooth Rooster on April 10, 2009 at 8:21 PM
How many notches above piker is that?
ericdijon on April 10, 2009 at 8:28 PM
I remember as a kid getting cigarettes out of a vending machine, where they would presumably be more expensive than by the cartoon from the shelf, when no one was looking. They were 25 cents for a pack.
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 8:28 PM
Viscount-you have a very isolated selfish view of the world. We worked our fingers to the bones our entire lives,we sacrificed everything to get a savings to help our 4 kids pay for college,they have jobs too,we volunteer in our spare time. We have come from nothing, do you hear me, nothing-not even a set of plates the day we got married in the mayors office. Now we have a hard earned income and had a bit invested for retirement,well thats gone now too. The income cut off to pay increased taxes is a lot less than what Obama says it is. We worked our entire lives to get where we are, and lazy asses who are barely over 18 years old, never served their country a day in their lives are entitled to our money? What, pray tell do you think they have done in their lives to be entitled to any of it?
canditaylor68 on April 10, 2009 at 8:29 PM
The assumption in conservative circles seems to be that hard work and self-reliance are the most important virtues. I used to think so as well, but what happens if you simply don’t want to work your ass off, spending all your time amassing wealth? Should you suffer? If the answer in your head is “yes,” then you’re a social Darwinist.
As I’ve grown, matured, and got more experienced, I’ve become more compassionate. I realize that there are a great many kinds of people in the world. Some are greedy, some are altruistic. Some are energetic, others more sedate. The problem in our world is that we try to shove all kinds of people into the same mould- that of the hard-working capitalist always trying to improve their station. It’s become a social virtue to be a workaholic.
This flies in the face of our advances in technology, siceince, and medicine. We should be enjoying our time as leisure and self-exploration while seeking enlightenment through an understanding of the complex universe we live in. Of course, many don’t do that. They prefer a reductionist world-view such as religion or politics which offers trite answers to all of life’s complexities while freeing them of any responsibility.
Case in point: If you buy into Objectivism, you absolve yourself from worrying about how your profit-seeking affects those who you use (such as workers or investors) to earn those profits. If they get taken advantage of, who cares? It’s their own fault. They should have been more responsible.
The fact is that life isn’t fair, and that there will always be those who through misfortune, birth, or circumstance have less wealth, power, and opportunity. I see nothing wrong with those who choose to seek advantage being taxed to support the rest of society. If the compassionate reasons for doing so don’t appeal, think of it as insurance against the pitchforks coming around to take by force.
If society is set up as a struggle for dominance, don’t be surprised when those who cannot become dominant conventionally attempt to use unconventional means. The capitalists of the late 1900′s took the lesson to heart and became the greatest philanthropists in history. Now we rely on the government for philanthropy, and so taxes are how it has to be done today. It sucks but it’s how things are.
So when those of you who have to cut checks to Uncle Sam do so, feel angry if you like but also understand that it isn’t unfair. It’s the cost of doing business. It’s what was decided generations ago as how we wanted our society to function. Then go and earn more money if that’s what makes you happy.
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 8:32 PM
Does this include:
Sales tax
Corperate (product) tax
property tax
Gasoline tax
Gas tax
Capital gain tax
License plate tax
Tobacco tax
At least a dozen other taxes?
How many people here consider all other taxes when you consider how much you pay in taxes?
allrsn on April 10, 2009 at 8:33 PM
The video is great as is. Maybe add a few more seconds of that slob, Barney the Frank…
Zorro on April 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM
You need another week of vacation to get you below being ‘rich’.
HornetSting on April 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM
That says it all!
WOW, you want to be a loafer and do nothing for yourself or the nation or socity and you demand MY money and call ME names??
allrsn on April 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM
You want to sit on your ass all day and not make a living, that is YOUR choice. But, I don’t want Barack Hussein Obama and company digging around in my pockets for money to pay for your loafing ass.
HornetSting on April 10, 2009 at 8:38 PM
Canadian or UK?
ericdijon on April 10, 2009 at 8:41 PM
I work long hours to provide for my family and the families of those who work for me. A ton of work and stress goes into each decision I make regarding my business. Real work.
At some point it will just be smarter to stop the hard work, close up shop, and sit back and wait until washington decides to stay out of my wallet.
TN Mom on April 10, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 8:32 PM
“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money [to spend].” – Maggie Thatcher
Go read some Milton Friedman so you can speak intelligently.
mph on April 10, 2009 at 8:45 PM
Oookay, since you insist: From the 2006 IRS statistics, available on their website (they post 2 years behind, and I haven’t checked for 2007 yet):
The top 5% pay 60% of income tax but have only 37% of adjusted gross income.
Conversely, the bottom 50% paying only 2.99% of federal income taxes have 12.5% of adjusted gross income.
So, there’s your perspective. Top tier taxpayers are paying disproportionately higher taxes, arguably significantly disproportionatey higher taxes than mid and lower tier payers.
BTW, how much wealth they control is irrelevant — the income tax is a tax on income, not wealth — although The One and his minions have made overtures in that direction also.
Sure looks like it.
Why should that matter and what business is that of yours? One could certainly argue that Hollywood actors don’t work that hard and yet are heavily compensated. What one earns is what others are willing to pay them. Why should you and 50% of low-income voters get to use the government’s gun to take that money from them? Doesn’t exactly seem fair.
AZfederalist on April 10, 2009 at 8:49 PM
A person who builds wealth gets to keep it, and the person who does not build wealth should get none. Otherwise, you have a system that rewards indolence and penalizes industry. Only a fool could refuse to understand that.
If the bottom is comfortable because you steal from the top, people will gravitate to the bottom.
snickelfritz on April 10, 2009 at 8:50 PM
Plenty of people in our society are able to find a level of material comfort they are satisfied with without further striving or an erosion of their position. Reality doesn’t frame the false choice you’ve presented.
Sorry to say, notwithstanding the philosophical musings in your comments, you haven’t yet done enough thinking about all this.
DrSteve on April 10, 2009 at 8:51 PM
It seems the “I got mine, you get yours, and if you can’t get any you must be a slob” crowd is out in full force today.
I’ll ask just one thing of all you American-Dreamists:
Without exception, every one of your rags-to-riches stories hinged on the ability to obtain a bottom-tier job as a step on the ladder of progress…but what if those are in such horribly short supply as to be nearly unobtainable?
In modern American economy, everything hinges on someone else with money deciding to give some to people like you and I, usually in exchange for our time and labor. The days of the pioneer are OVER; no longer can the average person go out and start from scratch in the middle of nowhere. Because of that change in our society, with a few fortunate examples the vast majority of us are more or less dependent on earning a living from someone in a fancy suit.
With that in mind, where exactly does this leave us young people when the nation’s economy is collapsing like a house of cards and any paying job has leagues of applicants?
Dark-Star on April 10, 2009 at 8:52 PM
I’m hearing a lot of stories about how people worked so hard for their lucre. You chose to do that and were born into it. It doesn’t entitle you to anything. It doesn’t mean those who either chose not to do as you did or were unfortunate enough to be born into different circumstances are inferior. Yet this sort of social Darwinism and moralizing is the default response.
Perhaps if I had been put into situations that were similar I might think the same way. Privileged people tend to think they earned the privilege. It can be distressing for those who think they had power and control to relaie thet they in fact were at the mercy of fortune the same as those they looked down on as inferior. The losses in the stock markets come to mind.
At any rate, I make no judgments on character or morality as regards to wealth, power, and “drive.” All that matters is doing the most good for the most people while doing the least harm. I used to think that Objectivism (or something a bit like it- see Ayn Rand) was the best way to do that. Now I swing more towards Marxist (NOT Communist) thought. I’d like no one to go hungry, sleep without a roof over their head, or live in fear. If the route to those things is higher marginal tax rates, so be it.
I’ve seen enough of life at the bottom, and enough of life at the top to give me compassion and understanding. I know that while one is at the top one can afford to pay more in taxes. If anyone wants to know my arbitrary definition of what the “top” is, I’d say that $200K+ a year is certainly the top. Below that, it depends. In the good times, I expect the rich to get richer. IN bad times, I expect the rich to cough up more to cushion the blow to those at the bottom. The reason is because they can, and should. We are all here together, bound by a common thread of humanity and existence. That should be reason enough.
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 8:52 PM
And they will stay at the bottom. For generations.
TN Mom on April 10, 2009 at 8:53 PM
the top 5% encompasses many different income brackets. the top 5% (i read this in WSJ some years back) is not only the ka-zillionaires like warren buffett & bill gates, but someone you probably know that does “well”.
kelley in virginia on April 10, 2009 at 8:56 PM
I’ve seen enough of life to know that the best way to remedy that is not through the federal or state governments. Its the most inefficient way to remedy it. And, as we have seen lately, that isn’t where our taxes are going.
mph on April 10, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Tax Cuts for private/small business would go a long, long, way to creating jobs. Real jobs, with room for advancement. Instead our government wants to provide you with hand-outs. Manna to keep you depending on them, not providing for yourself. I started at the bottom, worked hard and saved money, invested wisely, until I bought my own company. No one wants to invest in private business right now with president TelePrompter strong-arming their CEO’s, taxing them to the hilt, and throwing card-check in their faces…
TN Mom on April 10, 2009 at 9:02 PM
Never minding the basic fairness of it, taxing the rich will only get you so far before reaching a “tipping point”. If too many people get the idea that they can live off what others earn and too many people get the idea that too much of the extra that they earn will be taken away, well, things kind of start to break down.
Also, if those who are wealthy have to pay a much higher tax rate than those who are in the middle, who have to pay a much higher tax rate than those who don’t make much, then why not tax the rich at a much higher rate than the wealthy and tax the super rich at a much higher rate than the merely rich? The way things are now, and under the Obama’s plan, I believe, tax rates only increase to the level of wealthy, or maybe even just to semi-wealth, and then don’t go up after that. So basically the wealthy get scroomed, but not the truly rich.
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:03 PM
So the bottom fits you well, I suppose.
ericdijon on April 10, 2009 at 9:04 PM
What incentive do I have to make more money and become rich?
Mazztek on April 10, 2009 at 9:07 PM
Hey, Viscount, consider this thing we called the ‘War on Poverty.’ We took trillions from earners to give to the poor and wound up with just as many poor people at the end of it as we had at the beginning, with multiple generations of people ‘discovering themselves’ by waiting for the government check. We now have ‘families’ in this country that have not had a wage-earner in generations.
These people have more children than average, and at earlier ages, bringing them into the same cycle of aimlessness and uselessness that their parents had. Families disappear because government becomes the fulfillment of their needs, and these kids wind up uneducated, amoral, uninterested and unmotivated to achieve anything for themselves, because, frankly, they don’t have to.
Frankly, you sound either like you’ve been in college too long or you’re a Trekkie who thinks that Gene Roddenberry’s empty-headed vision of a moneyless paradise of enlightenment is something more than badly-written science-fantasy.
snickelfritz on April 10, 2009 at 9:08 PM
Now you are catching on!
Welcome to the Obama Nation.
Freebe line starts on the left.
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:09 PM
It always amazes me how shocked most people are when you tell them this information. Especially when you tell them just what constitutes the top 10%. Good ad.
brak on April 10, 2009 at 9:09 PM
I agree that further thought is required. It probably is for you, as well. That’s the nature of philosophy- it’s a journey with an unknown destination which takes place entirely whthin the self.
I know many comfortable people. They all got lucky in some way. In my weaker moments I am jealous, but not covetous. That is, I want that for myself but I wouldn’t think of taking it from them. They pay more taxes than I do, as they should. Nothing wrong with that.
I would assert that it can be very hard for some people to get comfortable. It’s harder now than it was 20 years ago. Even those who are comfortable are in a more precarious position than they once were. I see that evidenced in both personal communication and in places like this. People who are not secure in their positions tend to be more on guard. That’s why there are so many stories being posted detailing why those who are comfortable deserve to hoard their winnings.
I’m not sure what is meant by “false choice.” If you mean a Darwinian survival of the fittest, then I fully stand behind that as the model for most conservative economic thought. If you mean that I am being too broad in painting those who strive after material wealth with the brush of greed, then perhaps. What I am trying to bring to attention is how the American Dream is a load of manure. It pits us against one another in a contest few are equipped to win. Those who merely get comfortable tend to buy into this notion of how society should be ordered, i.e. wealth = happiness and poor = failures.
It’s a load of crap that we are fed since before we can talk. Implicit in that world-view is a lack of compassion for those who do not fit the ideals of that world-view.
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Viscount_Bolingbroke, are you Mother Tesesa’s reincarnation? You sure sound like you think you are. Why are you commenting on this selfish, money grubbing web site? Shouldn’t you be overseas someplace working for the downtrodden and oppressed?
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM
If you see no incentive, then don’t do it. But if you think there *should* be some incentive, but there isn’t, then I suppose you never really thought there was an incentive in the first place.
You sound like many people who have been told that being rich is the ultimate goal of existence and that by not constantly expanding your income you are failing your purpose in life.
Viscount_Bolingbroke on April 10, 2009 at 9:14 PM
You sound like a college student who was just made to read Marx. You don’t like our system – don’t live here. Most of us like it just fine and do not feel that it needs to be blown up for some pie in the sky socialist paradigm that has never worked anywhere it has been tried.
Your last post is full of straw men and biased language. “Winnings”??? What I have WORKED to EARN are not “winnings” they are EARNINGS based on what a free market has been willing to pay me!
rockmom on April 10, 2009 at 9:16 PM
Chapter II
“The Nash Equilibrium”
Condensed for your amusement by Viscount_Bolingbroke
ericdijon on April 10, 2009 at 9:16 PM
If you don’t know where you are going any route will take you there.
That sounds like mental masturbation to me.
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:17 PM
The great thing about America is that you DON’T have to live on the treadmill of material success and wealth if that does not fulfill your dreams. But if you don’t, DO NOT JUDGE those who do!
rockmom on April 10, 2009 at 9:18 PM
What the heck does that even mean?
thomasaur on April 10, 2009 at 9:20 PM
The incentive of being able to support Viscount_Bolingbroke in the life style to which he would like to become accustomed.
Don’t tell me that’s not motivation enough for you!
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:21 PM
But don’t expect those that work to pay your freight.
thomasaur on April 10, 2009 at 9:22 PM
The assumption in conservative circles seems to be that hard work and self-reliance are the most important virtues. I used to think so as well, but what happens if you simply don’t want to work your ass off, spending all your time amassing wealth? Should you suffer?
That’s how life usually works out bub.
You don’t work your ass off.
I, however, do.
Why should you profit from my hard work?
ArmyAunt on April 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM
I think it means that he wants your money. How much? I dunno. How much you got?
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:27 PM
Suffer? What?
You don’t have to work very hard in this country to not suffer.
Where do you get these strange ideas?
Are you living in some third world country?
MB4 on April 10, 2009 at 9:33 PM
Tell me then oh wise one,what is my incentive to provide for others whom I care nothing about? Can I have all of your money right now? Can I take your computer because I am sure that there is a child somewhere that needs one. You see I live in a moderately sized town, and just down the street from my home I see a dozen help wanted signs. The pay is probably minimum wage or a bit better,the rents here are reasonable, and I know that somewhere in between there is plenty of fin aid available for education. We have fishing,hunting and plenty of cheap used cars you can buy. Are you willing to come and work and turn over your check to the people who dont have any money? I mean as long as you have a place to live,enough food and the like it should be no problem for a compassionate one such as yourself.Are you willing to give it all up,including the internet,so that others less fortunate than you can have what you would then no longer have? After all that is what you are asking everyone else to do. Have you seen America’s poor? Their tvs, cable and cars? Have you seen them with cell phones and designer shoes,glasses and good dental work? All of which at some point we have sacrificed and done without them so that we could pay our taxes for them to have such things…
canditaylor68 on April 10, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Hopefully enough to make it to the end, but I didn’t think I was going to live this long.
; – )
thomasaur on April 10, 2009 at 9:34 PM
Reason is great.
They have an iTunes video podcast. I suggest everybody subscribe.
Glenn Jericho on April 10, 2009 at 9:38 PM
People like you make me want to vomit! I learned very early on in life that being poor sucks! From being made fun of in grade school for only having three shirts and two pair of pants to graduating high school and not having the money to go to college gave me many life lessons as to how being poor sucks! But instead of taking some quixotic point of view that the rich should be taxed more to support me I instead worked hard in school to gain a good education and then joined the U.S. Army after graduating to not only serve my country but to earn the money necessary to go to college. I am now in my late 40′s and teach high school at a 90/90 (90% minority/90% free lunch)school and every day try to instill in my students the belief that no matter where you are now that if you will work hard and get a good education then you can lift yourself out of poverty. I know that some of my students have listened to me and pulled themselves out of poverty. However, I also know that some of my students have lived by your philosophy and fully expect the handout given to them by the government. The simplest thing that I have learned in life is that poverty is very much a state of mind. The vast majority of people who are poor made decisions early on in their lives that led them to their current state of poverty and they then have children and teach them to do the exact same things that made them poor to begin with. I am out there every school day trying to teach 100+ children to not go down the poverty path. What are you doing? Espousing thoughts about social Darwinism and creating excuses why the productive members of society should be punished for the parasites of society.
dawgyear on April 10, 2009 at 9:39 PM
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