Pollution controls caused Arctic ice melt: NASA
posted at 12:18 pm on April 9, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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People have blamed the retreat of ice in the Arctic on carbon-dioxide driven global warming. However, new research at NASA suggests that environmental intervention in the 1970s could bear most of the blame. The elimination of aerosol particle emissions have removed a cooling element for the northern hemisphere, which has reduced a natural balance in the climate on the effect of human activities:
New research from NASA suggests that the Arctic warming trend seen in recent decades has indeed resulted from human activities: but not, as is widely assumed at present, those leading to carbon dioxide emissions. Rather, Arctic warming has been caused in large part by laws introduced to improve air quality and fight acid rain.
Dr Drew Shindell of NASA’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies has led a new study which indicates that much of the general upward trend in temperatures since the 1970s – particularly in the Arctic – may have resulted from changes in levels of solid “aerosol” particles in the atmosphere, rather than elevated CO2. Arctic temperatures are of particular concern to those worried about the effects of global warming, as a melting of the ice cap could lead to disastrous rises in sea level – of a sort which might burst the Thames Barrier and flood London, for instance.
Shindell’s research indicates that, ironically, much of the rise in polar temperature seen over the last few decades may have resulted from US and European restrictions on sulphur emissions. According to NASA:
Sulfates, which come primarily from the burning of coal and oil, scatter incoming solar radiation and have a net cooling effect on climate. Over the past three decades, the United States and European countries have passed a series of laws that have reduced sulfate emissions by 50 percent. While improving air quality and aiding public health, the result has been less atmospheric cooling from sulfates.
On NASA’s site, Shindell continues:
In the modeling experiment, Shindell and colleagues compiled detailed, quantitative information about the relative roles of various components of the climate system, such as solar variations, volcanic events, and changes in greenhouse gas levels. They then ran through various scenarios of how temperatures would change as the levels of ozone and aerosols — including sulfates and black carbon — varied in different regions of the world. Finally, they teased out the amount of warming that could be attributed to different climate variables. Aerosols loomed large.
The regions of Earth that showed the strongest responses to aerosols in the model are the same regions that have witnessed the greatest real-world temperature increases since 1976. The Arctic region has seen its surface air temperatures increase by 1.5 C (2.7 F) since the mid-1970s. In the Antarctic, where aerosols play less of a role, the surface air temperature has increased about 0.35 C (0.6 F).
That makes sense, Shindell explained, because of the Arctic’s proximity to North America and Europe. The two highly industrialized regions have produced most of the world’s aerosol emissions over the last century, and some of those aerosols drift northward and collect in the Arctic. Precipitation, which normally flushes aerosols out of the atmosphere, is minimal there, so the particles remain in the air longer and have a stronger impact than in other parts of the world.
Now we have a counterargument to cap-and-trade! Rather than pursue ridiculous and economically disastrous emission controls on naturally-occurring carbon dioxide, we can simply stop imposing aerosol controls. That would cost less and have more impact on the problem that climate-change activists claim to want to solve.
However, there are two things wrong with that argument. First, the modeling is as much unproven as is the CO2-climate-change models are. The latter completely missed the cooling trend of the last few years, which calls into question their entire premise. Until the modeling proves itself, the science remains unsettled — as it must for people attempting to extrapolate the future by looking at only the last few hundred years on a planet billions of years old.
Second, and probably more important, most of the activists are less concerned about actual climate change than they are about having an excuse to nationalize energy production, along with everything else. They stopped listening to “science” a long time ago, as soon as they heard enough to justify confiscatory government policies, and have tried to quash all other lines of inquiry with the same enthusiasm as the medieval Inquisitions, and with the same motivation — power. Don’t expect them to listen to NASA when the agency refutes part of their argument now.
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Here in Northern New England we saw first hand what acid rain could do. I remember hiking on some of the higher mountains in the 1970s and seeing evergreens that had been seriously impacted. Since that time things have improved, but I can’t prove that the EPA controls had anything to do with it.
Del Dolemonte on April 9, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Gore = Liar
When you lie for profit, isn’t that a crime?
marklmail on April 9, 2009 at 1:25 PM
To make it more clear insert the word “political” before agenda.
Of course the agenda is to find a cure for diabetes, I had assumed some would understand the word “agenda” as being counter, or in addition to the obvious.
right2bright on April 9, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Hold on there! This is an AGW discussion. What are you doing bringing up real-world observations?
Show me a simple computer model that says the ice sheets thickened, and maybe I’ll believe you.
hawksruleva on April 9, 2009 at 1:25 PM
This study completely contridicts Al Gore’s “scientific” theories… therefore it could not be meaningful or valuable in any way!!!
petunia on April 9, 2009 at 1:26 PM
EasyEight, I’m a strong supporter of your conclusion.
Do you have pointers/links to resources on the decision process leading to the change of ET insulation? I wasn’t previously aware it was changed due to environmental concerns.
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM
There is a lot of junk science going around about climate change. I found an interesting video of a professor making a presentation at Duke University:
Effect of the Sun on Global Warming
One of the things that has always bothered me about the IPCC version of “global Warming” is the “hockey stick” graph of temperature created by their accepted climate model. It simply does not agree with other proxy evidence that we have been able to gather such as ice cores in Greenland and Siberia, pollen trapped in peat bogs, coral growth patterns, and ice stalagmites. Recently an effort at Harvard by Sallie Baliunas and Willie Soon has collated the information from many different proxy sources worldwide in an attempt to discover if temperature patterns are global or only local. They have discovered through analysis of many different independent studies of many different proxy methods that the warming of the middle ages and the “little ice age” did occur. These indicate that the “hockey stick” graph is not accurate.
The Italian scientist at the link above has discovered that if you change the weighting used on the IPCC models. that you can make the IPCC climate models agree with the results of the proxy evidence. The warming of the middle ages and the little ice age reappear in the graph. In order to do this, you must increase the impact of solar activity by a factor of 3, and reduce the impact of greenhouse gasses by a factor of four. This is an indication that greenhouse gases play a much smaller role in climate change than the IPCC claims and that our sun is much more important in the process. Is anybody surprised?
So the more we research this, and the farther we go, the more we are sure the politicians are playing us for fools. Al Gore wants to shut off debate because that is the only way he can get his payoff in time before his theories are debunked.
Hawthorne on April 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM
I am older then you, much probably, I was told that world wide starvation by the year 2000…we were told we were entering an ice-age (by many of the same people making money off the global warming)…and we were told that China would be “overrun” by the number of people, equally in numbers the rest of the world.
The year 2000, looked pretty bleak in the 1960’s…same people, same “agenda”, same ol same ol.
right2bright on April 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM
Yes, it was a funny coincidence that the patent for R-12 Freon was about to expire. I kept some skepticism about R-12 because it is a synthetic material, though.
Here’s a nice chart from Icecap.us. Arctic warming vs. CO2 and solar activity. Hmmm.
Feedie on April 9, 2009 at 1:30 PM
And make sure they bring em’ back in those giant two foot high cans. I’ll always remember my mother holding one that was bigger than she was!
anniekc on April 9, 2009 at 1:30 PM
A good point…peer is someone a politician appoints to look out for their interest?
right2bright on April 9, 2009 at 1:31 PM
strictnein, Del Dolemonte: See my previous comment.
This is an example of “give ‘em an inch”. Sulfur emissions needed to be controlled, and so did particulates. Both of them are cases where the human-caused input does in fact make a significant difference in the environment, albeit mostly in local areas.
The particulates output by volcanoes and other natural processes are in relatively large particles which settle out quickly; the minority of teeny-particle emissions hang on, of course. Particulates output from industrial processes are in very small particles, which stay up longer and have greater impact.
Nobody likes dusty hazy skies. Getting rid of the cement plant emissions reduced the haze a lot — but increased acid emissions, both from power plants ramping up production and automotive catalytic reactors, left the atmosphere so acidic as to produce the effects you describe, especially downwind of power plants. You, in the Northeast, both have more power plants (because it’s cold up there, and you need them) and are downwind of the prevailing air movements across the country, so you got blasted. And since most of the really influential politicians are also from that area, the problem got noted.
Reducing SO2 and particulate emissions was and is a good thing. The problem is that the success of those measures left a lot of activists and politicians with a triumph under their belt and nothing else to do. Idle hands are the Devil’s workshop, so now we have the demonization of CO2.
Regards,
Ric
warlocketx on April 9, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Epic.
bluelightbrigade on April 9, 2009 at 1:32 PM
if you want to see a really great video on the problems with Global Warming watch:
Global Warming: Doomsday Called Off – CBC
Please note that the video is produced by CBC which is hardly a right wing extremist group.
Hawthorne on April 9, 2009 at 1:32 PM
If models show more warming than actual observations, believe the models. Suggested headline “We’re all going to die!!”.
If observations show more warming than models, believe the observations. Suggested headline “It’s worse than we thought!!”.
Whichever shows more warming must be right.
zmdavid on April 9, 2009 at 1:32 PM
I wonder what the average life expectancy of a global scare is? BIrd flu was 3 years? BSE 2 years?
seven on April 9, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Actually, that statement is true.
If our molten iron core was cold, its rotation would not create a magnetic field. Without our magnetic field to shield us from radiation, the solar wind would strip the atmosphere away in just a few million years. This is probably what happened to Mars.
lonesomecharlie on April 9, 2009 at 1:34 PM
The haze from the “bee-hives” was hilarious…you could smell it for hours afterward, and a slick lacquer finish covered the “Melmac” counters.
Aqua-Net
Here
right2bright on April 9, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Well I really wish it would frigging warm up here in ND right now.
I am getting sick & tired of all this snow, ice, & cold.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Your mother is less than two feet high? You must be excluding everything above the hair line. ;)
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 1:37 PM
BSE is alive & well in the beef cattle production industry.
It’s also a valid concern bcs your USDA doesn’t inspect the big meat packers-they let themselves do it.
USDA only really inspects small guys anymore who BTW happen to get the product from the big packers who processed it FIRST.
Didn’t you wonder why the increased outbreaks of E-coli & salmonella?
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM
I agree. I am a conservative that strongly feels that we must become better stewards of our world. I just do not share the extremist view that is becoming public policy today. Yes, we need to do everything we can to remove the impact of pollution on our world. We need to make our impact as light as possible on our ecosystem. But that does not mean we need to destroy everything we are in order to accomplish that.
I do not share the view that we have an imminent crisis. I do not share the view that climate change is predominantly man-made. I am of the view that we need to get serious, but it is an effort that we can accomplish over the next century, not the next few years. I feel that water pollution in the oceans is a much more immediate problem than CO2 emissions. But the really important things do not get dealt with because we would have to smack down China and India and make them responsible too, not just America. So there is no political will to do it.
Hawthorne on April 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM
When I try to rationally discuss “global warming” with my Progressive co-workers, their first response is to say that “all the scientists say it’s true.” The proper response to that is to point out that all the scientists in the world believed that Newtonian physics was true until a guy named Einstein came along and changed their minds. And, all the scientists believed that eugenics was true until a guy named Hitler came along and put their theories into practice. All the scientists indeed.
lonesomecharlie on April 9, 2009 at 1:41 PM
I wonder what Hansen thinks of this.
Ryan Gandy on April 9, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Then support the family farms/ranches of America. Bcs that’s what we do for a living-manage our places by taking care of the land & the animals we raise.
You will find no better steward of the land than the ones making a living off of it.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 1:45 PM
I’m currently reading a college text book about the atmosphere and even the writers in the field of atmospheric research haven’t a clue what’s going on. This is another classic case of unintended consequences by liberal idiots.
Mojave Mark on April 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
I have to laugh at the “melting Arctic ice will cause sea levels to rise” nonsense. The Arctic ice is floating on the Arctic sea. Unless you went to public school in some of the more “progressive” states, you’d be familiar with Archimedes’ Principle.
mr.blacksheep on April 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Arctic sea = Arctic Ocean
Use “Preview” dummy.
mr.blacksheep on April 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Actually, the link between the DDT ban and AGW scare is closer than you think.
The only test that showed DDT thinned eggs, has been thoroughly discredited. In real experiments, the scientists do their best to change only one variable at a time. In this experiment, they put the chickens in a hot noisy room, and fed them a calcium poor diet. All three factors are capable of causing chickens to lay thin shelled eggs. They also fed the chickens a small amount of DDT. When the chickens did in fact lay thin shelled eggs, the “scientists” loudly proclaimed that DDT was the sole cause.
Other scientists using reliable experiments, have been unable to duplicate the original results.
The Bald Eagle is often used as a success story for the DDT ban. However, there was a ban on the hunting of the Bald Eagle that passed about 10 years before the DDT ban. The records also show that the eagle populations started improving several years before the ban on DDT went into affect, long before any changes in background DDT levels could start falling.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM
So we really WERE headed for the next ice age in the 70’s? Who knew?
todler on April 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM
By your refusal to defend your ridiculous claim, may I assume that you have decided it was indefensible?
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 1:49 PM
The conservative position on the environment should be to conserve the natural balance of things while addressing our needs.
For example, many comments on SO2, cement, and other particles being placed in the air by society. These efforts to not have these release into the atmospehere are good and can be traced to the fact that they are not natural to our atmosphere (as shown below). CO2 is natural and critical.
Composition of Earth’s Atmosphere
Nitrogen 78.1%
Oxygen 20.9%
Argon 0.9%
Carbon dioxide, Methane, Rare (inert) gases 0.1%
The same can be said about water, lakes and oceans.
It seems to me, though, if we want to do this at a fedral level, the consitution needs to amended to give the federal government this regulation power.
WashJeff on April 9, 2009 at 1:51 PM
There were many good reasons for getting SO2 out of the atmosphere. Acid rain wasn’t one of them. (That was the only point I meant to make.)
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Another response is to point out that this statement isn’t even close to being true.
Survey after survey has shown that very few scientists believe in any of the catastrophic scare stories.
Pretty much all scientists believe that CO2 makes the planet warmer, and that more CO2 will make the planet warmer still. It’s just that most scientists believe the warming will be on the order of a few hundredths to a few tenths of a degree.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Thank you for pointing that out, though I would have assumed it was pretty obvious. Death’s comment was inane, useless and devoid of basic knowledge of this rotating rock called Earth.
His rambling about “really neat science formula’s” is nothing more than a desperate attempt to validate his “science cred” and completely useless to the conversation.
I am a fan of Lindzen and have been for years. He spells out the idiocy of the drive by intellects like Death who attempt to baffle with bs – yet opine like a moron over a very basic and extremely important tenant of the earth, its formation and impact on our existance.
It cannot be overlooked.
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 1:59 PM
I definitely do that when I can. I buy most of my produce from small organic farms. Often from roadside stands or farm markets (the ones actually at the farm). It is more difficult for meat at the moment because my freezer died. I used to order pork and beef directly from the ranchers. I would get together with friends and “quarter up” a cow or hog. I don’t have room in my freezer now since it is just the little one in my refrigerator. But I am going to go back to that soon.
Hawthorne on April 9, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Like everything else in life, clean air and water are goods that need to be balanced with the other goods that we want.
In other words, how much are we willing to pay to clean up the air. The environment has been cleaned up tremendously over the last 30 to 40 years. More can be done. However, each incremental increase in cleanliness will cost more than the last improvement. The law of diminshing returns has kicked in here.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Even some of the dumbest liberals in the world (and that’s saying quite a lot) now believe – according to their very own theology - that every day for the past 50 years, they have worked tirelessly to destroy the world by delaying our transition to nuclear power.
And that didn’t reduce their self-righteous zeal by one tiny little bit. So why should this?
logis on April 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM
RE: DDT
Thanks for that info.
If I cared enough, I would look that up for myself.
But I really don’t.
The bald eagle thing actually was not that big of a problem from what I remember.
And there are lots now-at least where I’ve been.
They show up here in the spring in ND-I usually see at least 20 different juvenile bald eagles flying around the river by my house.
But we have more golden eagles here & they stick around longer.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Whether “organic” farming is good for the environment or not is still open to debate.
Fewer artificial chemicals, but more land has to be used to grow the same amount of food.
So which is worse?
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Small local butchers sometimes contract with local producers to provide locally raised meat for sale.Only catch is they have to be inspected bcs the meat is destined for the general public.
Many states have state branded meat for sale, ie. ND Angus beef & SD. Local stores then carry the stuff for the public.
I encourage everyone to buy that way if they can.
You will be surprised how much better the meat tastes.
I can fry my hamburger & have no fat in the pan, it actually smells good while it’s cooking, & I can eat it with just a little salt & it’s good.
Try that with store-bought big ag meat-you will barf if you do.
I swear they mix in nasty old bulls & icky cull cows into that mix along with a bunch of nasty fat for ‘flavor’.
And all the suckers buy it.
Ugh.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Agreed. In Chicago, the skys are consistently clearier than 20 years ago; and the lake is clean, some say too clean (except when Wisconsin sends their poop towards Chicago…dang cheeseheads). Our society is so programmed to care about the environment (my opinions is the concern is a little over the top), that going back to belching non-natural particles in large amounts into the atmosphere and water is not going to happen.
It seems we have a decent balance. Freeze the rules here so businesses know what the rules are and they know they are not going to change.
WashJeff on April 9, 2009 at 2:09 PM
In many places organic farming is a joke.
Chemical drift from adjacent fields covers organic crops as well as the ones it was intended for.
Organic farming using natural pesticides is better than using none.
Through pesticides, better or worse, the entire world enjoys cheap food.
Don’t like chemicals?
Then you’d better be satisfied with sky rocketing food prices & anemic looking produce.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Christmas wish #1.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:10 PM
This is hilarious. Not only does it put the lie to global warming hysteria, it indicates that the government intervention so far has made the problem worse. I don’t know which is funnier, the idea that man can control the climate, or that Al Gore is going to get shorted big time, but my stomach hurts.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 2:12 PM
An idiot like you can assume whatever he wants, though I was having lunch with my wife; see comments above.
I suggest you email his original comments to any 5th grade sciense teacher of your choice. Start with “if the earth’s core was cold…”
Enjoy.
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 2:13 PM
I guess that I am a bit of a naturalist when it comes to food. I agree that there are trade-offs. I just chose this path because the organic farms I found in my area do not use genetically altered seed stock.
Hawthorne on April 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Nobody panic. When I get home today, I’ve got a couple cans of R-12 Freon in the shed.
BobMbx on April 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Between you and me, I’d focus on meat before produce. The hormones and other drugs your cows and pigs are subjected to can impact you and your family more than the pesticides on produce. I buy both organic and traditional fruits and vegetables, but I only buy non-hormonal meats.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM
We have truth coming out of sector 18C…blue team, take down!!
Grafted on April 9, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Hawthorne, would you please re-post the link? The first one isn’t ‘complete’.
My daughter went to Duke and is now working for an environmental group, focused on global warming advocacy. She may be more willing to listen if the source I send her is from Duke.
Thanks!
Greg Toombs on April 9, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Are there actually agricultural products commonly available today that are not grown from genetically altered seed stock?
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 2:30 PM
It’s true that CO2 absorbs infrared radiation from the Earth very well, over a very narrow band of wavelengths near 15 microns, but it is transparent at other wavelengths. CO2 absorbs so well in that narrow band that over 99% of the energy at that wavelength is absorbed over a 10-meter thickness, meaning that if the CO2 concentration were doubled, about the same amount of energy would be absorbed in a 5-meter thickness, but very little additional energy would be absorbed.
Water vapor absorbs infrared over a much wider spectrum, and (depending on humidity) is present in concentrations about 10 to 100 times that of CO2, so that water vapor has a much greater warming effect than CO2, which only accounts for about 0.05% of the total. Trying to affect the climate by limiting CO2 emissions is like swatting a gnat on top of an elephant–it won’t make much difference, and we’ll never eliminate water vapor from the atmosphere, since over 70% of the Earth’s surface is covered by water, which will always be evaporating and raining out somewhere else!
What the cap-and-trade scare-mongers conveniently ignore is that plants grow faster and have higher crop yields in atmospheres enriched in CO2–hundreds of experiments have demonstrated this! Burn, baby, burn–we’ll have a greener earth, and future populations might need the extra food!
Steve Z on April 9, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Yes, but for large pollination footprint crops like corn, there is virtually no unaltered stock. The GM versions have pollinated the natural fields over time.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 2:33 PM
oddy, I suggest you look up the first rule of holes.
My comment had nothing to do with any consequences of the earth’s core growing colder, other than the fact that the amount of heat escaping through the crust wouldn’t drop by much. I’m sorry if you feel that I have to include enough proviso and quip pro ques to satisfy even the most anal (reference yourself in there), but as I pointed out earlier, that’s your problem, not mine.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:34 PM
I’m still trying to figure out why so many, otherwise rational people, have so much trouble with the concept of GM foods.
I debated someone on this site last week that was convinced they could alter the DNA of anyone who ate them.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Which crops commonly grown today have not been genetically altered in one way or another since being first cultivated by humans?
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 2:38 PM
When it gets hot here in Texas, we usually blame the heat on the sun!! What the heck is so hard to understand about that??
gary on April 9, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Well, this does prove one thing. Nobody really has any idea what they’re talking about.
jimmy2shoes on April 9, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Something else will be hurting after this 4 years is up.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
It depends on where you draw the line. Cross breeding different strains is thought to be different (and less malevolent) than exchanging the nucleus of a cell with an animal nucleus – which is being done.
That said, I am less worried about produce than meat. The hormones and other drugs being put into livestock are more likely to affect the consumer.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 2:43 PM
I hate to break it to you, but someday you’re just going to have to learn to live with the fact that Daddy’s Little Princess didn’t shave her head and start selling flowers in an Airport because she’s just going through another little “phase”.
In the meantime, YOU need to learn from HER. Be a good father, show an avid interest in her career, and learn everything you possibly can about it — starting with who’s pulling the strings and where their funding is coming from.
logis on April 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM
I loves me pollution…sniff.
Wyznowski on April 9, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Then why did you post what you didn’t “mean”?
Since we are giving advice, perhaps you should have said “sorry, I misspoke and meant to say “if the earth’s core cooled by a few degrees it wouldn’t…”
You said “If the earth’s core were to completely cold, the earth would only cool down by a few tenths of a degree. At most.” I imagine you were trying to say “cool”, but I digress. “Completely” is where you went wrong – it is an epic error, akin to saying “addition and multiplication are useless to algebra”
It’s called integrity and accountability, but clearly someone who needs to put “Great” in their name is lacking some self esteem and wants to be validated by their perceived “brilliance” through rambling comments.
Lonesome does a nice job of breaking it down, in 4th grade terms:
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 2:47 PM
I didn’t. Is it my fault you can’t read basic english?
The guy I was responding to had no trouble figuring out what I said.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:49 PM
It’s ALL been genetically altered. Even you.
Great points & facts no one seems to understand.
Now transgenic crops (genes from other organisms inserted into a plant) I could have issue with.
We have no way of knowing how this could affect the native plant populations, as well as human allergies, etc.
That crap should be limited. You never know what could happen.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:50 PM
As I stated before, I was addressing one issue, and one issue only. That being, what impact the heat flow from the core had on the earth’s temperature.
It’s not my fault you decided that I was addressing something else.
It’s also not my fault that you have a rather strange inability to admit that you screwed up and drop the subject, rather than continuing to subject yourself to more and more ridicule and embarresment.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:51 PM
I don’t want to be mean here, but why don’t you give this line up?
You’re never going to be satisfied.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:51 PM
This just in; Eco-nuts cause of Global Warming, says NASA.
This is soooooo rich! While the eco-freaks run around clanging their bells and screaming about the end of the world due to man-made Global Warming(tm), won’t it be a hoot when they find that they’re the ones to blame?!? Do you think that they will punish themselves for contributing to their perceived murder of Mother Earth?!?
Send them to Africa without DDT, maybe Darwinism will work its magic.
Geministorm on April 9, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Actually, it’s not being done. If you were to do that, what you would end up with is a clone of the animal that the nucleus came from.
What is being done is taking a few genes, sometimes from animals, more often from other plants, and inserting them into the gene of the target plant.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:53 PM
DRILL EVERYWHERE ALWAYS AND BURN, BABY, BURN!
Plus I want an oil derrick in my backyard, as long as it can be turned off or sound-dampened at night or when I’m watching TV.
CK MacLeod on April 9, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Perhaps you should try 1) basic english and 2) avoiding inane comments, devoid of basic science.
Though, at least you have some shame with your pithy, short retort. In fact, I will take credit for you becoming a wee bit smarter in the past 5 minutes by you avoiding another rambling post about nothing. Kudos to you.
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Perhaps.
The water you drink is full of the hormones people pee out.
City folks drink ‘treated’ water, but the hormones etc are still there.
BTW-drugs in cattle are oftentimes necessary for the health of the animal & the people consuming them.
Hormones are used to enhance production, but many of us beef producers are getting away from that end of the business.
We do not use steroid implants anymore & I’m highly suspicious that they ever really worked in the 1st place.
Good genetics is really the key.
Anti-biotics, vaccines etc should be used sparingly, but should be used.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Intuitively that seems like a plausible claim. Can you point me to rigorous scientific studies that support it?
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 2:55 PM
I’m beginning to believe that oddy is nothing more than an new incarnation of one of our old trolls.
He doesn’t even try to make sense, just tries to pick stupid arguments.
I’m done with him.
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 2:55 PM
It already has. Those with 1 copy of the sickle cell anemia gene are more highly resistant to malaria.
Us white folks don’t stand a chance in malarial infested countries!
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 2:56 PM
I am not going to say I told you so, I am not going to say I told you so, I am not going to say I told you so, I am not going to say I told you so…………
Johan Klaus on April 9, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Excuse me. Have we met?
Greg Toombs on April 9, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Somebody probably said that about fire long ago.
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 2:57 PM
You have less control over your stupidity than you think. You were intellectually dismissed.
I am sure it’s not the first or last time.
Cheers.
Odie1941 on April 9, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Sounds like all Obama needs to do is to get Captain Picard to bring the Enterprise in orbit, and Geordi can send a stream of particle emissions from the deflector dish into the atmosphere, then configure the tractor beam to keep the particles in the upper atomosphere and not allow them to fall to the planet.
Make it so.
muckdog on April 9, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Fortunately, I drink well water, so I am shielded from most of that.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 3:02 PM
The next time you get that, you can send them this link (see below), I find that shuts them up effectively. Science isn’t a popularity contest. Even if the “answer” were correct, the science is still bad…so, EPIC FAIL libtards!
Petition signed by 31,000 scientists who don’t agree that man-made Global Warming is “fact”
Geministorm on April 9, 2009 at 3:02 PM
I can’t point you to specific studies (I am currently supervising students taking an open book test). :)
But-in my educated opinion on the matter, being involved in animal health, I do not believe that hormonal imbalances, fertility issues, puberty issues etc in humans, as well as anti-biotic resistant bacteria is solely being caused by hormone & anti-biotic use in the animal industry.
I do think it has an impact, but how big is the issue.
Responsible producers keep this in mind when they vaccinate for disease, use hormones for growth, increased production etc & use anti-biotics to treat sickened animals.
There are some people who constantly pump drugs into their critters.
This is why a premium is paid for drug-free cattle at the auction yards.
Drug free means no anti-biotics or hormones: period.
The few sick calves we ever have to treat with anti-biotics don’t get sold as drug free. But I’d rather treat the animal than let it die.
I think big ag is a problem in this arena.
They often mix hormones & anti-biotics in animal feed at the feed lots.
I think this is irresponsible.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 3:02 PM
Everything in moderation: except hard drugs & propaganda.
Me too. We are some lucky folks.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 3:04 PM
Not really, it is intuitive with me as well. I see kids maturing younger, and people getting cancer earlier, which makes me wonder. Since I know my grandparents did fine with non-hormonal meat, I am taking that route – by the time it is proven or disproven, it would be too late for me.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 3:04 PM
I’m one of those paying the premium – just like an insurance premium…. Don’t know if it is worth it until the end of the trip.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 3:07 PM
Somebody probably cheated in the time it took you to write this ;)
As I said, intuitively is seems credible, but I’d like to see some rigorous studies.
Living in China I’ve got no idea what I’m eating most of the time anyway, so it’s not a high priority ;)
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 3:08 PM
Don’t ask.
Seriously, in the east of China, I was always afraid of what I was eating, while in the west, I had some of the best lamb and chicken I have ever tasted.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 3:11 PM
It’s worth it. Don’t worry.
I bet you are highly resistant to melamine poisoning.
That’s a plus.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 3:11 PM
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Sorry, just couldn’t help it.
I agree – the science is definitely not settled or reliable (IMO). Carry on, as if the Earth didn’t give a whit about mankind. Because it doesn’t.
connertown on April 9, 2009 at 3:12 PM
They cheat when they work together on a take home test.
I know it happens.
But it shows up in the next test they gotta do by themselves.
Mwahahahaha! *Laughs evilly*
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Cute, Marie, real cute.
Two points:
1. I’m a he, not a she. Have the common decency to figure that out before you post in this manner.
2. What exactly don’t I know? I know NASA has now been on both sides of this issue. (Remember James Hansen?) So, obviously somebody at NASA doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
If you’re going to flame me, flame me for the correct reasons.
Snowed In on April 9, 2009 at 3:14 PM
And don’t get me started on the dairy industry.
Sometimes drugs are just no match for good genetics & good husbandry practices.
Badger40 on April 9, 2009 at 3:15 PM
I live in the east, and now proven immune to all toxins. Apparently I don’t need oxygen anymore either.
DarkCurrent on April 9, 2009 at 3:17 PM
Drink matai (sp?). The Chinese version of vodka. It will kill any bug you ingest. Just hold your nose while drinking, unless you enjoy the taste of turpentine.
Vashta.Nerada on April 9, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Sounds like discrimination to me.
Is there anyone I can sue?
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Where the h*!! did that come from, and why do you believe it to be relevant?
MarkTheGreat on April 9, 2009 at 3:21 PM
I’m just greatful I was around to experience acid rain.
Sweet, sweet acid rain…..good times…good times.
elderberry on April 9, 2009 at 3:22 PM
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