Hitchens vs. Ken Blackwell: Is America a Christian nation?
posted at 8:00 pm on April 8, 2009 by Allahpundit
Mmmmmmm, that’s good comment bait! Not as interesting as Doug TenNapel’s recap of Hitch’s debate with Christian philosopher William Lane Craig, but fun nonetheless. This devolves relatively quickly (and predictably) from an argument over whether America is Christian by origin into an argument over how Christian America will remain; my own feeling is that the country will become more secular as science and technology become more able to explain “magical” phenomena, but that a backlash to that progress will emerge in the form of hardening of religious attitudes among the true believers. What that will look like, I have no idea.
The jumping-off point here is Newsweek’s new poll on post-Christian America. I was most impressed while reading the data with how constant the country’s religious belief has been, but do note the results of question 17. An all-time low.
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It is a Christian nation, but not a Christian government. And I like it that way.
The Monster on April 8, 2009 at 8:02 PM
who cares. I am a Christian. I don’t care what America is.
ThackerAgency on April 8, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Like the soul. Oh wait.
spmat on April 8, 2009 at 8:03 PM
And the irony of the meaning of “Christopher” never ceases to blow me away.
The Monster on April 8, 2009 at 8:04 PM
SAMPLE SIZE/MARGIN OF ERROR FOR SUBGROUPS:
256 Republicans (plus or minus 6.9)
370 Democrats (plus or minus 5.8)
328 Independents (plus or minus 6.1)
Party ID
Republican 22
Democrat 41
Independent 32
Other/Don’t know 5
Just sayin
msmveritas on April 8, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Oh who the hell cares about yet another tedious Christian vs Atheist debate.
Why can’t people like Hitchens just leave other people the hell alone and let them have their faith? It is not as if they do not know there is a secular world out there.
Terrye on April 8, 2009 at 8:06 PM
FIFY
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 8:07 PM
I agree in sentiment but possibly not in exact words.
Here is my problem with this:
I would say, yes, leave us to be free to exercise our faith in private and public, having a voice just as relevant and weighty as the secularist or muslim, etc., and we might have some level of true equity, right? Well, depends on where our notion of freedom of religion and expression ORIGINATES. I say this stems from a christian worldview. Any concept of freedom, I believe, stems from a belief in our inherent worth endowed by our creator.
Mommypundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:09 PM
I usually leave atheists the hell alone.
Hell being the operative word.
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 8:09 PM
America is closer to being post-capitalist than post-Christian
Christianity is flourishing in China. . . our soon to be new capitalist overlords.
Wow, Hitchens is really stretching here labeling people categorically without fact. He seems to have a need to label people ‘atheist’. He must be getting lonely.
ThackerAgency on April 8, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Like Global Warming? All they’re interested in now.
BTW, that is a rival for The Most Moronic Statement Since Time Began award
Tony Soprano on April 8, 2009 at 8:11 PM
YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE ATHEIST.
Allahpundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:12 PM
?? Your mental image of current Christians (magic lovers) and your image of future Christians (hardened), is a bit strange. This kind of reminds me of the time when, in a Headline thread, those who argued that the earth had a creative purposeful cause (by whatever means) were accused of believing in alchemy. But enough of that, I’m going to go back to my magic reaffirmation class, while preparing for the time when it will all be “debunked”. Harden Away!!
Weight of Glory on April 8, 2009 at 8:15 PM
I think it is they will be atheist in thought…
ericdijon on April 8, 2009 at 8:15 PM
I thought my children were going to be Muslim.
Damn, I wish they’d make up their minds.
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 8:16 PM
(Bronx cheer)
Tony Soprano on April 8, 2009 at 8:16 PM
AP – You have no knowledge of what our children will believe. You are in fact a moron for pretending that you do. As for Ben Franklin, I would like to know what Hitchens source is for his assertion that he was an atheist.
echosyst on April 8, 2009 at 8:16 PM
Still waiting for the Newsweek’s new poll on post-Muslim America……………
Seven Percent Solution on April 8, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Are you trying to like…get people agitated…? It just sounds kinda…well, dumb.
angelwing34215 on April 8, 2009 at 8:18 PM
Terrific.
Allahpundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:18 PM
you mean that jumble of electrical impulses and chemical/hormonal reactions going on inside that grey matter of yours?
ernesto on April 8, 2009 at 8:18 PM
I’m goofing on comments made by Muslim commenters.
Allahpundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:19 PM
What soul? Point to one or infer the existence of one using anything that exists in reality and then we can talk about debating it’s origin.
ebrawer on April 8, 2009 at 8:19 PM
SHHHHHHHH.
Allahpundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:19 PM
Allah,
I am surprised that you didnt have the picture of red meat for this post.
Also,are you Hitchens agent or something? you are constantly promoting him :-) as opposed to say Dawkins.
Hitchens Arrogance = Hot Air clips
nagee76 on April 8, 2009 at 8:20 PM
lol. Rather like a normal Allahpundit thread on Atheism, creationism or Palin then.
Well yes, right wrong or indifferent, it certainly is more so than it isn’t. No sense in denying it.
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:20 PM
He was more likely a Deist. Atheists like to think that means Atheist-lite, but it doesn’t. Deists think of God and the Universe as a clock-maker and a clock. He made it, then left it to operate on its own. That’s not Christianity, but it isn’t Atheism.
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 8:21 PM
(wry smile)
Tony Soprano on April 8, 2009 at 8:22 PM
We may not always be a Christian nation, but we wouldn’t have been successful without it. We need to preserve and respect that history and it in the future.
tomas on April 8, 2009 at 8:24 PM
I think that science and technology have probably rather peaked out in that regard, at least for the foreseeable future, now that Obama and his luddites are in charge of what “science” and “technology” to fund and favor.
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:24 PM
Is Chris Hitchens really a drunk, or does he just play one on TV?
pcpower1 on April 8, 2009 at 8:25 PM
Franklin:
“Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see.”
Hitchens:
Liar.
echosyst on April 8, 2009 at 8:26 PM
Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.
Allahpundit on April 8, 2009 at 8:28 PM
GOD is not GREAT, please, lets all go to HELL and give up on AMERICA, WHAT THE FUGE IS GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY AM I THE ONLY SOB WHO THANKS THE WOULD IS GOING TO HELL AND I BELIEVE THE U.S. IS A GOOD COUNTRY??????? PLEASE LORD, LET THE WORLD CONTINUE ARE DESTROY IT NOW!
foxone on April 8, 2009 at 8:28 PM
You do realize however that this does not preclude believing that God expired long ago, or at least “took the last train for the coast” and in fact probably at least leans in that direction.
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM
The argument about the “foundational faith” of the USA will always be one largely of the perspective of the individual looking back at the foundational documents. Christians talk about “Judeo-Christian principles”, and non-believers such as myself focus on the explicit secular nature of the documents and the deistic beliefs of the founders.
More important is Hitchens’ final point (rough transcription):
Christians can’t stand Hitchens because he doesn’t care much for Christianity, but he knows that radical Islam is even worse. That’s why I find all the philosophical arguments for the existence of God from Christians so ironic. You use philosophy (and sometimes even pseudo-scientific arguments) to make a case for God, but why should it be your God and not Islam’s?
Christianity is clearly (in today’s world) a vast moral superior to Islam, but that doesn’t make either one correct.
peski on April 8, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Allah, I don’t hate the playa, in fact I find his columns quite entertaining and thought provoking. Just asking…
pcpower1 on April 8, 2009 at 8:32 PM
Franklin was by his own account a Deist. He was greatly influenced by Thomas Paine.
Tony Soprano on April 8, 2009 at 8:35 PM
I have just returned to God, after a 30 year absence. I thought I knew it all too…..’You don’t know what you’ve got until you lose it’…..*sigh*
clinker46 on April 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
pwaki, u must be kiding, go fuf yourself
foxone on April 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
There is no surer sign of decay in a country than to see the rites of religion held in contempt.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Troll. Also against ToS.
Can someone warn a mod about this poster?
malclave on April 8, 2009 at 8:40 PM
If one determines the word “nation” to mean the people, then yes.
However, if applied to the movers and shakers of the moment, then no.
OldEnglish on April 8, 2009 at 8:40 PM
What like the Virgin Mary on toast?
How secular the country is has no correlation to “magical phenomena”. Virtually every miracle ever recorded has some explanation and it’s has very little effect on faith.
Why should it start now?
Rocks on April 8, 2009 at 8:41 PM
After how many generations? They been saying that for hundreds of years already.
Rocks on April 8, 2009 at 8:43 PM
There is no reason for religion and science to be at odds.
They answer two fundamentally different questions:
Religion answers the Why? questions and science answers the How? questions.
When either try to answer the other question (like science trying to prove or disprove God or religion trying to disprove evolution), they get in trouble because they are going outside of their “jurisdictions.”
To think that science will “do away” with religion shows a particular and peculiar ignorance of both religion and science.
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Its a majority Christian nation.
AbaddonsReign on April 8, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Christianity is clearly (in today’s world) a vast moral superior to Islam, but that doesn’t make either one correct.
peski on April 8, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Sure it does.
Bishop on April 8, 2009 at 8:45 PM
The man’s a hero
He’s a drunk
A babbling zero
But he sure has spunk
Oh bunk, the man’s a Satan crazed lout
And still you can’t seem with him to do without
PercyB on April 8, 2009 at 8:47 PM
How so? Christians are less likely to kill for their God, or treat women better, therefore Jesus was divine?
peski on April 8, 2009 at 8:48 PM
What the hell is Judeo-Christian values? Is the divinity of Jesus the most central precept or is it not? How can you hyphenate yourself with people who don’t share your most fundamental beliefs?
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 8:48 PM
No. So called Christians are demonstrably more secular. Thus one could attempt to say (still with a stretch) that today’s Christians are morally superior to today’s Muslims. But this has nothing to do with Christianity.
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 8:51 PM
It’s simply a way of saying that Christianity’s roots are in Judaism.
Jesus didn’t come to earth to start the Christian church.
He lived (and died) a Jew.
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 8:51 PM
How so? Christians are less likely to kill for their God, or treat women better, therefore Jesus was divine?
peski on April 8, 2009 at 8:48 PM
Don’t ask me, I’m a casual believer.
Bishop on April 8, 2009 at 8:52 PM
This country has thinks change involves taking things away from people rather than incorporating others. Christianity in this country has shown to be incredibly flexible over time without being oppressed.
tomas on April 8, 2009 at 8:53 PM
Rather similar in that regard to Ayn Rand, just substitute religion in general for Christianity and socialism for
radicalIslam.MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:53 PM
Ten bucks says Allahpundit has one of those Fathead® Wall Graphics of Hitchens on the wall above the sofa where he passes out every night.
carbon_footprint on April 8, 2009 at 8:56 PM
We’re talking about America. America is supposedly a “Judeo-Christian” nation. My question is: is America in some way inseparable from accepting the divinity of Jesus? If it is separable, in what sense is it Christian? If no, what’s “Judeo” about it?
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Take Hitchens and match him up with Mark Levin, who could probably go toe to toe with him. Watching this is like watching a 6 foot man crush a height-challenged midget.
therightscoop on April 8, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Interesting. Is this also the place where your thoughts come from? Your views? Your propositions? If so, then how can they be understood as “true” “correct” or “accurate”? Wouldn’t they simply be what is? But be careful, for if you answer in the affirmative, then even that conclusion is subject to the same “hardwiring”, and thus offers no reason for my assent. For I must heed my own subjective “hardwiring”. But this then puts all of humanity at an impasse. For by making man purely a machine, you have destroyed all epistemological aspect to statements, as well as any reason for communication. But as long as we all no longer believe in magic, I guess it’s for the better.
Weight of Glory on April 8, 2009 at 8:58 PM
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind to filch wealth and power to themselves. They, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
- Thomas Jefferson
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 8:58 PM
One of the inherit problems in any discussion over whether America was founded on Christian values is the setting of the time frame in which the country was founded.
Simply speaking – if one puts the “founding” of the country with the first city and state governments, then the answer is quite simple and obvious – America was “founded” on Christian values.
However, if one puts (limits?) the “founding” of the country to the creation of the legal entity (Declaration of Independence, Constitution, etc.), then the question is severely clouded. There is a lot of Christian influence but there is also a lot of secular and philosophical influence.
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 8:58 PM
I was gonna say the same thing. They put an intellectual midget against Hitch. Fixed fight!
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 8:59 PM
It’s funny how we never hear the “It’s just a few bad apples” arguement their defense. It is easy for the left and OTHERS to pick safe demons rather than deal with reality.
tomas on April 8, 2009 at 8:59 PM
62 per 60 minutes. I’ve seen waaaaay better. Better throw another log on this fire. What could you update with?
ericdijon on April 8, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Sarah Palin watches Glenn Beck religiously and Meghan McCain is trying to talk KP into moving to Vermont to get married.
carbon_footprint on April 8, 2009 at 9:02 PM
Actually, my post answers your question.
What makes the connection between Judaism and Christianity is that Christianity was founded by Jews and incorporates Jewish teachings and scripture.
Yes, there is a “break” between modern Judaism and Christianity centering around the question of Jesus’ divinity.
But that doesn’t remove the fact that Christianity is really simply a branch of Judaism.
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 9:02 PM
That’ll do it.
Weight of Glory on April 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM
Wherever & whenever the Church is a tiny, repressed minority, the Church is at it’s purest–the most loving, forgiving, generous folks you could imagine.
jgapinoy on April 8, 2009 at 9:04 PM
Where was it I read KP took a vow of celibacy?
ericdijon on April 8, 2009 at 9:04 PM
You know, we can commit as much as we wish to, but it rally means NOTHING. You can all go and kiss my back side. But, I do belive in GOD.
foxone on April 8, 2009 at 9:05 PM
MB4,
Very true. In addition, look for the quality of education to decline in this country despite the fact that we’re “investing” more money than ever in education.
Mike Honcho on April 8, 2009 at 9:06 PM
I like how atheists always cherry pick the couple of Thomas Jefferson quotes they think supports their position but then studiously ignore the volumes of other quotes from the other framers in support of religion.
echosyst on April 8, 2009 at 9:06 PM
The rise of the West had much less to do with democracy than with the rise of secularism. The West’s advance was chiefly related to the decline in the influence of religion that sought the truth by “looking in” to see what God had to say, and its replacement by looking out, deriving authority from observation, experimentation and exploration.
The original figures to draw attention to this were Bishop Robert Grosseteste, early in the 13th century, the first person to imagine the experiment, and his contemporary, St Thomas Aquinas, the first man to imagine a secular world, a world without God directing everything. Secularism is not the same as atheism, of course, both Grosseteste and Aquinas were priests. But they helped us to escape from the overbearing medieval view that the world has meaning and pattern only in relation to God [or Allah].
The inconvenient truth is that the West should be exporting secularism around the world before it exports democracy. Democracy implies not just one person one vote, but no less important, that the political process proceeds by rational means, by argument, by persuasion, and is based on knowledge that is as objective, as scientific, as one can make it. The objective knowledge has to come first.
- Peter Watson
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 9:07 PM
It may once have been, but no nation with the TV, music, & movie choices that we make (not to mention politicians we elect) can be considered Christian.
jgapinoy on April 8, 2009 at 9:07 PM
So whatever American values are, they are surely in no way a product of the most central precept of Christianity. You can safely discard it, as the Jews do, and that wouldn’t somehow mean that our morals are in vacuum.
Would that be accurate?
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 9:08 PM
I would argue that although some colonies (and cities) were founded by religious groups seeking freedom from persecution (or freedom to persecute), and religion clearly is and was a deep-running current of the character of the society, what makes the USA unique in history is the Constitution itself, and the principle embodied in it – individual liberty. This is not a “Judeo-Christian” principle in any sense, but the core of our nation’s greatness.
peski on April 8, 2009 at 9:08 PM
Um, is that why the founders of most of the major branches of science were Christians?
jgapinoy on April 8, 2009 at 9:09 PM
I can’t disagree with that. I think it would be fun to see Hitch and Levin going toe to toe.
peski on April 8, 2009 at 9:09 PM
To be honest, I was only responding to your inquiry about what “Judeo-Christian” values are.
The oldest laws and constitutions of cities and states in this country have strong references to both Jesus as the Son of God and basic Judaic principles (most common is the Ten Commandments).
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Allah,
I’ve been a fan of yours since the old Blogspot site and my submission of a “Six Days” emblem design (good times), and I’ve held my tongue about what seems to be your obsessive desire to promote atheism, and a not-so-thinly-veiled desire to debunk Christianity. To me they are textbook signs of someone struggling with faith – someone whistling past his own graveyard, perhaps.
I finally feel the need to say something about this, and it was this sentence that did it:
If this really sums up what you think explains faith in most people, then you completely misunderstand what faith is, and especially Christian faith. Sure, there are a few nutcases on the fringe of any faith who buy into faith healers, crystal rubbing, gris-gris, what have you – people who do toss everything “magical” into the wood chipper of faith for safe disposal; but there are also plenty of nutcases on the fringes of atheism who toss everything that even vaguely argues for a deity into the bin of “prove it or move it.”
The vast majority of Christians, at least, do not look to their faith to explain “magical” phenomena. As long as you accept the falsehood that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, you’re going to miss the point, and ultimately the answer. As long as you insist on proof as the condition on which you believe, you’ll be doing the equivalent of studying your math textbook in preparation for an English exam.
It is one thing not to believe in Christianity; it is another entirely not to believe in a supreme creator at all. To do that you have to believe in the absurd proposition that the universe and everything in it either always was (something even science’s Big Bang theory argues against), or in the even more absurd proposition that all of this something came from nothing. Atheism is a belief proposition that is simply unworthy of people with a functioning intelligence, and I include Christopher Hitchens in that group.
The path from believer in a supreme creator to trinitarian Christian and substitutionary atonement I admit is not an easy one for everyone; but the path from atheist to believer in a supreme creator should be simple enough for anyone who can get up and put their pants on in the morning by themselves. The most elementary logic puts the lie to the premise that all of this exists just because… it does.
You and Christopher Hitchens – and I’ve followed Hitch for 20 years now, and you for 7 or 8 – both seem to me to be people who feel like they’re being watched, but not by another person. Believers know that feeling, and Christians especially know it well. I’m all for you working out your problems with God in public, but it would be nice if you could stop phoning it in and do some more careful reasoning.
greggriffith on April 8, 2009 at 9:14 PM
That was a misunderstanding. She has taken a vow of monogamy since we met.
carbon_footprint on April 8, 2009 at 9:17 PM
carbon_footprint on April 8, 2009 at 9:18 PM
All I have to say is that God and faith were specifically mentioned by the founding fathers and in our earliest documents. Our society is going to s$%t because people are losing their moral compass. In a godless society you are going to see the degeneration of our communities and the kind of outrages that we watch on the news every night. Here is my “Murphy Brown” moment…Children growing up in homes with no father, a mother with no moral values, are going to spiral down into the crap we are seeing now. Each generation will get progressively worse. Also, I seem to remember people flocking to church after 9/11. When you are in crisis, you return to your roots.
TXMomof3 on April 8, 2009 at 9:19 PM
That was funny. Anyway, it still counts as a tick on the web traffic meter.
ericdijon on April 8, 2009 at 9:20 PM
If it can expire it isn’t God.
Listen, I’m no fundamentalist Christian. I haven’t been to church (except for funerals and weddings) in years. But I’ve never doubted the existence of God. I have my own peculiar beliefs but feel no desire to recruit others to my philosophy. Others can define God as they wish or not believe.
I like the ideal of my liberties coming from a higher being, because that hinders any man-made government from eliminating them. I like my government acknowledging this.
Science is great but should always be tempered with humble restraint.
There is something bigger than all of us, and you’re a fool not to give it some respect.
IMHO
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 9:20 PM
I concur and let me repeat what I said earlier:
To think that science will “do away” with religion shows a particular and peculiar ignorance of both religion and science.
Religious_Zealot on April 8, 2009 at 9:20 PM
The rumour is Allahpundit may be broken heartish
That for so long with KP he has only been playing peek-a-boo
Were I Allahpundit, I’d feel rather worryish
If what you say about KP is true
It’s possible our intrepid lad should flirt with danger
How he wishes KP would flirt with he
Me thinks this thread will grow ever stranger
Ah, mais oui
PercyB on April 8, 2009 at 9:21 PM
And who’s saying that?
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 9:22 PM
And yet you find no absurdity in the idea of a supernatural being? Oh, well.
OldEnglish on April 8, 2009 at 9:24 PM
What Jews would that be? Surely, you don’t mean to stereotype?
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM
How can anyone honestly believe that we are all here by accident? The fact that man and women were made the way we are and that the miracle of birth occurs, proves beyond all doubt that God is there. If you have never held your newborn child, maybe you cannot relate. To look down and see the life you are holding in your hands takes away all doubt.
TXMomof3 on April 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM
It’s a well known fact that B. Franklin didn’t attend church. In fact, it was his pleasure to show ignorant people that he had a better answer to god’s wrath than church bells. And it was upon his suggestion that the word “sacred” be replace with “self-evident”… as in “we hold these truths to be
sacred(holy… hmm no) but self-evident. I challenge you to find a religious man that would rather use the wording “self-evident” over “sacred”….whiskeytango on April 8, 2009 at 9:27 PM
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 9:08 PM
Not the least bit antisemetic, are you?
Disturb the Universe on April 8, 2009 at 9:28 PM
Emotion is no substitute for logic.
OldEnglish on April 8, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Because it requires a “leap of faith” based on absolutely no evidence, and in fact requires faith in the face of contradictory evidence. But not many Christians will admit this.
Your post was well written, so I suspect you didn’t mean that to sound as insulting as it did. Most people obviously agree with you, but many who are perfectly capable of “putting their pants on in the morning” disagree, including numerous brilliant miscreants, such as Hitchens.
No, not so much, unless you want to delve into the psychology of what drives people to want to achieve, do the right thing, etc. It’s not big brother in the sky for me, and I suspect the same for AP and Hitchens.
peski on April 8, 2009 at 9:31 PM
It is called emotion, it is called faith.
TXMomof3 on April 8, 2009 at 9:31 PM
What Jews reject the divinity of Jesus? You know… the Jewish Jews.
Are you saying this is not true?
radiofreevillage on April 8, 2009 at 9:31 PM
Nah, he is just a mischievous lad, or possibly a cantankerous old man, trying to get the thread count up high enough so that he will hopefully be able to get enough bonus money to as Meagan McCain out.
MB4 on April 8, 2009 at 9:32 PM
No, I don’t, because not only do I find it not absurd that what we define as “natural” must by definition derive from something exterior – and superior – to it, I find it necessary that that be the case.
greggriffith on April 8, 2009 at 9:38 PM
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