Should “sexting” be a crime for kids?
posted at 12:38 pm on April 6, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Everyone agrees that child molestation and child pornography are despicable exploitations of innocent children, who cannot defend themselves against their adult exploiters. But what happens when the exploited is also the exploiter? States have begun to create laws about “sexting”, or more accurately, the transmission of self-created nude pictures of teens and preteens that would make them sex offenders. The ACLU objects:
Youths should not be treated like criminals for sending nude photos over cell phones or the Internet, the American Civil Liberties Union said today.
At a Columbus news conference, lawyers from the ACLU and Ohio State University said that no Ohioan has been convicted of a felony yet, but lives could be ruined if underage youths have to register as sex offenders for sharing nude or semi-nude photos or video.
Known as “sexting,” teenagers also have been charged with pandering obscene material and other pornography crimes for transmitting or posting photos on Internet sites like Facebook or MySpace.
The ACLU of Ohio urged officials to stop prosecuting juveniles, claiming that the damage from criminal trials far outweighs the act of sexting. They sent letters Thursday to all 88 Ohio county prosecutors and members of the Ohio General Assembly, urging them not to pursue criminal charges.
In my day, “sexting” was known by a different name: Polaroid. It took a little more ingenuity and slightly more investment, but teenagers who had the inclination would take pictures of themselves, or their sex partners would do it for them. They got passed around on occasion, too, although the new technology makes that a no-cost affair and a lot easier to accomplish.
The ACLU has a point here. Taking nude pictures of underaged teens exploits them, but if they’re exploiting themselves, prosecution winds up punishing both the perp and the victim. When boyfriends and girlfriends of the same age take the picture and then disseminate them, they may be heartless cads (we had a more blunt name for them in the Polaroid Age), but it’s difficult to put them in the same category as child pornographers for the act.
On the other hand, that seems to allow a Mack Truck-sized loophole for real exploiters of children. They could conceivably have them take their own pictures and send them via cell phone to whomever they desire. Possession of child pornography is a crime, and it may be difficult to differentiate on the basis of origination and transmission type.
Surely there can be some sort of middle ground here, where really stupid teenage acts can be deterred by threat of official sanction without resulting in sticking a lifetime sex-offender label on the sexters. Perhaps the age and identity of the perpetrators can trigger misdemeanors or infractions rather than felonies, and prosecutors and judges be given latitude for discretion. We want to protect the powerless, not destroy their lives.
Blowback
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How would this happen? Some shady character in Russia is going to show up in your daughter’s bedroom with a gun demanding she take a picture of her boobs and send it to her friend?
People who sell kiddie porn aren’t interested in a photo of a 15/16/17 year old girl’s boobs. They are interested in pre-pubescent children. That’s a huge difference than a highschooler MMSing over a boob shot.
If you can legally see it in real life, it’s madness to make photos of it illegal.
jonknee on April 6, 2009 at 2:00 PM
FYI
It’s up in the air if three Pennsylvania teenagers will face charges related to “sexting.”
Scranton on April 6, 2009 at 2:04 PM
You can bet the the majority of these kids have this at home…or that their parents don’t really care.
This is the price you pay for having a “relative” society…a society whose lines of decency are blurred.
Is it or is it not okay for an underage girl to get an abortion without parental approval…is it okay or not okay to distribute condoms to kids…is it okay or not okay for movies like Pulp Fiction to be shown to “kids”…is it okay or not okay to look a Playboy, after all it is “tasteful”…is it okay or not okay for a President to have oral sex with an employee…so many gray, that shouldn’t be gray. Is it okay or not okay to have sex before marriage, to move in, to have children…so easy to set limits, except when you don’t know what are the limits.
The only book with moral limits are religious books…
right2bright on April 6, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Aren’t most of these phones registered in the parent’s names? Technically it’s the parent’s phone that has kiddie porn on it, right?
All the more motivation to get your kid to keep it in their pants.
Ludwig on April 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM
I have a 12 year old son and scan his computer occasionally. Ironically I’ve been kind of worried since I haven’t ever found a single file of any kind he shouldn’t have. Having gotten in trouble at age 7 for stealing one of my uncle’s Playboy magazines, I can’t help thinking there’s something wrong. He’s tech-savy, so I hold out hope he’s got USB drives hidden somewhere…
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Rather ironic as this generation’s teenagers, as a group, are the fattest, most out of shape, least sexy teenagers, in America’s history.
KentAllard on April 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM
There was sexting when I was a teen. I was lucky if I could get a girl to draw a nude picture of herself.
DarkKnight3565 on April 6, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Laws might help but are not the issue. The real problem here is a major breakdown in parental responsibility. The exponential growth of internet and mobile technology has brought with it a major paradigm shift in our kids world and parents have not risen to the occasion. The same parent who would not drop their fourteen year old at a strip club or let him keep a collection of porn in their room, allows them to have unsupervised internet access and mobile devices which include very dangerous technology. Add to this the increasing abdication of parental responsibility in general, and the exultation of “privacy” as the highest value, and we have a real problem.
neuquenguy on April 6, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Sorry but this argument fails for a few reasons.
What if they start to make pornographic videos and distribute them? As long as they are the same age this is okay based on that logic.
What happens when child pornography magazines and websites get a hold of the photos and publish them? You have also remove all ages limits and based on that argument 2 ten year old kids should be able to do this if they are the same age.
Basically what you are saying is child pornography is okay if kids produce it and distribute it themselves, but not if adults do.
JeffinSac on April 6, 2009 at 2:12 PM
While parents may limit the tech given to their kid, kids can easily buy their own, borrow, or use a friend’s phone with cam, computer with cam, or camera. The tech is nearly omnipresent in America, and way easier to get and use than alcohol, which has been pretty easy to get. So, the solution is not in the tech.
AnotherOpinion on April 6, 2009 at 2:12 PM
As the father of daughters, and the grandfather of granddaughters, I have Absolute Moral Authority in discussing this issue. If you don’t believe me, go ask Cindy Sheehan.
So, if a 17yr, 11-month, 29-day-old takes her own picture on her cell phone, and leaves it on her cell phone after her birthday, she’s to be charged with possession of “kiddie porn”? If she sends it to her boyfriend while she’s still under 18, then he’s “in possession” of it, and can be charged similarly?
We have to stop the insanity of treating teenagers with mature reproductive organs as the same as immature children. There is a huge difference between finding sexually attractive a fully-developed female form, (which is happening at earlier ages now than ever before) and that JonBenet Ramsey business of tarting up your little single-digit-aged girls like cheap hookers and parading them around. There has to be a different word for those two things, because they aren’t the same.
But the moment someone like me says it, I’ll be hammered for being a pedophile, or at least an apologist for pedophiles. So no one dares defend the poor schmucks who have to register as sex offenders because their girlfriend was below some arbitrary age.
What’s ridiculous about “18″ as the magical cutoff for these things is that, depending on the state law, a girl can give consent to sexual relations, but not to having a dirty picture of herself taken. I can’t wrap my brain around how that makes any sense.
The Monster on April 6, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Does he have an ipod? They double as flash drives….
OK now whoa? At this point you have to ask..where are the parents. A “friend” told me that he filmed some special alone time with his partner that it’s a bit of a to do. How do these kids have time to not only have sex, but set up a tripod and make DVDs? I mean where are the parents? Is this even happening? Most cell phone made porn is for private consumption because it’s not particualrly good. You normally have to have a memory of the act for it to be effective….I heard.
DeathToMediaHacks on April 6, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Maybe it is time to take a second look at the “Pop Culture” and those behind it……..
Videos, Music, Toys, TV, Clothes, Movies, School Curriculum, attack on Religion, etc., etc………….
…….. talk about “Chickens Coming Home to Roost”!
Seven Percent Solution on April 6, 2009 at 2:17 PM
He knows he’d have to do better than try and hide something in an iPod. He’s aware I worked on both his OS and default browser.
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Amen!
becki51758 on April 6, 2009 at 2:35 PM
This should be easy…
Possession of child pornography is a punishable crime. That part can be taken care of without too much difficulty (not any more than previously). The “production” of child pornography doesn’t need to be explicitly spelled out, and pornography laws often aren’t, so why start now? If the AG or judge sees that an adult is overseeing a minor taking pictures of his peers, then the decision should be fairly simple. If a minor is in possession of such material, make a decision based upon the information available. If cases were easy to assess, why would we need judges, lawyers and juries in the first place?
An analogy? We have laws against killing, we don’t have to mention every possible method of killing in order to make it illegal to do so. An adult producing or possessing child pornography is the easy case. A minor obtaining or taking pictures/video of under aged persons has to be taken on a case by case basis, it shouldn’t be a big deal to determine what their intentions are/were. It goes to motive, was their intention to enjoy a private encounter, or are they taking advantage of minors for distribution, or malicious intent? Again, we have judges, lawyers and juries for just this reason, to make an assessment about the actions of the defendant.
Geministorm on April 6, 2009 at 2:38 PM
What ever happened to right and wrong?
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 2:39 PM
If they are educated to know that once on the net, hard to remove-and that they will surface again when they least expect it.
Funny, how IT Comes around!
hawkman on April 6, 2009 at 2:41 PM
I agree. Sooner or later the blinders come off and we have to acknowledge that things of this nature will occur no matter if the child is 17 and some odd days or just a day over 18. I claim brainfart on that one-my point was to use the statutory laws that are already on the books as a guide,but for petes sake, and billies,and georgies, and heck maybe even for suzie and janes we cannot rush to prosecute teens for having pictures on a phone. We need to be active parents who can and will take control of the situations we can control and at least in some ways develop an instinct about the things that we cannot control. As the parent of 4-2 girls ages 18 and 19 and 2 boys ages 16 and 14 I have seen all sides of the debate. Whereas if I found one of my daughters posting naughty pics on the internet,well she figured out soon that the internet was controlled by me,now my sons who are both under 18 have what I term as distasteful pictures of over 18 year old girls on their cells,those cells belong to me too. My hubby on the other hand,knowing full well after his 23 yrs in the army,that I have had the responsibility to raise all of the kids for the most part by myself-takes some sort of evil pride in knowing his boys are boys,dont laugh you know what I mean. I truly hope and pray that whoever is involved in forming the laws regarding sexts takes the human side. There comes a point in each young persons life where one can no longer stop the tide of teen hormones more than one can stop rivers from flowing. We just have to be aware and try to give them the moral ground on which to build or stand on.
canditaylor68 on April 6, 2009 at 2:46 PM
This is so difficult because so many situations come into play. You have the kid that sleeps around and distributes the pictures to the entire school. You have kids at parties that get stupid and everyone gets to take a picture. You have 18 year olds that have 17 year old girlfriends and have pictures. The entire thing is based on sex. Kids having sex at 12 years old see sending a picture as no big deal when they already felt the act. Any parent that swears they know what their child has done 24/7/365 until they are 18 is a fool. This is why it is difficult, 18 is not a magic number. Puberty hits at a much younger age. 21 drinking age. 18 military, move out to college. But some judge is going to flub this up and somehow 90% of kids will be in Juvie or naked kids on the internet will be allowed.
Tremmy on April 6, 2009 at 2:47 PM
I wouldn’t say you’re a pedophile.
The reason for the 18 age limit is because that is how our laws have determined that there is enough maturity to make informed decisions about one’s future well being. The same is true for joining the military, voting, smoking, buying/drinking alcohol and driving a motorized vehicle on the public roads. We need a point of deliniation.
As a father, I hope to have my daughters “educated” well enough by the time they reach 17-18 to make mature choices, but of course everyone makes mistakes, especially in those first years of caring for themselves. The hope is that they won’t be the kind of permanent mistakes that effect the rest of their lives (DUI, drug addiction, unwed motherhood, STD, etc.). But, sooner or later, the apron strings have to be cut. In this case, it seems that society and the government act as an arbiter between the parent(s) and child. The child wishes for more freedom and legitimacy, the parent wishes for more time to continue preparation for the “real world”.
Geministorm on April 6, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Jumping ahead a bit – what happens in 2039 when a 46-year old man is found in possession of nude pics of his high school sweet heart?
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Is that why the driving age is 16? And the drinking age is 21? And the smoking weed age is never?
We have some very odd standards in regards to age.
MadisonConservative on April 6, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Something wrong? So not having “files he shouldn’t have” equals something wrong? *rolls eyes* sheesh.
ViperPilot on April 6, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Well I happen to know that there is at least one picture… some stupid 13-14 year old boy took of his own… or maybe a friend helped or maybe an “uncle” but whatever that picture has spread and been seen by lots of people! Is that what the poor kid intended? I doubt it.
These pictures make the rounds. I am certain that by now someone unsavory has gotten the picture of this kid and he is the object of attention by perverts–probably world wide.
I think we should try to stop that kind of thing. At very least we should educate kids that what they think they are doing is being used for other purposes!
I don’t see sexting as healthy for individuals or society in any way shape or form. For girls or boys!
Cut the double standard too…
“boys will be boys” is in real life be “boys will be abusers” because they don’t get a healthy message about how to think about or treat women.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 3:01 PM
the problem is the Legal Age limits seldom affect behaviour.
Teenagers are still drinking..
Teenagers are still having sex…
All ages are still smoking dope…
Age restrictions didn’t stop us when I was a kid in the 70s… and they do not stop kids now…
Romeo13 on April 6, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Yeah, because we all know that Girls are perfectly innocent… and never do anything wrong…
Romeo13 on April 6, 2009 at 3:03 PM
I’m just concerned for my Y-chromosome’s future. A Y-chromosome needs a lot of drive (thrust) to get propagated. A Viper pilot should understand… ;)
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 3:04 PM
True, but we have to do more than giving them moral ground. No matter how strong their moral foundation is, quite often their hormones and natural curiosity will likely overpower their moral grounding, at least temporary. Precisely because of this, parents have the responsibility to keep their children safe to he best of their ability. This includes supervision, enforcement of rules and denial of opportunity or privacy when it is warranted. We cannot assume that their upbringing will completely shield them from getting into trouble, nor can we throw our arms up in the air say “they are going to do it anyways, so what is the use?”
neuquenguy on April 6, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Precisely.
canditaylor68 on April 6, 2009 at 3:09 PM
So your son’s sex life is all about you.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 3:15 PM
I’m not seeing any parents here hoping their daughters are posting naked pictures of themselves. But I am seeing fathers hoping their sons are collecting pictures of naked girls…
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 3:17 PM
To support my point. AP’s carrying a Y-chromosome that thousands of men fought to defend and protect. Now he’s in a stall and hauling back on the stick.
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 3:20 PM
There are significant biological reasons for that.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM
There is a biological reason for wanting your sons to exploit other men’s daughters?
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 3:26 PM
It’s not about me. It is The Progenitor’s design. I was simply a link in the chain.
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 3:31 PM
I’m with the A.C.L.U. on this one. Ruining a child’s life by prosecuting them for the “crime” of sexting is horrible overreaction.
Buy Danish on April 6, 2009 at 3:31 PM
Yes. Thinking purely in terms of biology, can you figure out why?
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 3:40 PM
In states where there are exceptions for sexual relations between young people of similar age, should similar rules apply when messages are sent between such people? The difference between relations and a recording/message is that the latter can travel further than physical presence can.
HotWeaver on April 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Unfortunately, the life of a child who is sexting is or will be damaged to some measure regardless of prosecution or lack thereof.
Even if we leave any emotional, moral or psychological issues behind, there is the real probability that the child’s privacy will be seriously breached with damaging consequences in the future. For instance, it is not uncommon for the recipient of the pictures to post them on the web to boast or get even. It is also becoming a standard practice for many employers to google an applicant’s name as part of background checks. This kind of thing is likely to have a detrimental effect on the child in more ways than one and should not be
neuquenguy on April 6, 2009 at 3:44 PM
To be more concerned about the sexual activity of a daughter than of a son. The costs are higher for a daughter.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 3:46 PM
The simplest solution:
Kid: “Can I have a mobile phone?”
Parent: “No.”
Kid: “Why not?”
Parent: “You don’t need one.”
Kid: “How can you expect me to live without a mobile phone?”
Parent: “I did when I was your age.”
Kid: “But what if we need to call each other from school?”
Parent: “They have phones at the front office.”
Kid: “What if I need to talk to friends?”
Parent: “Call them from home or talk to them in person at school between classes.”
Kid: “But, but, what if there’s an emergency?”
Parent: “OK, you convinced me. Here’s a mobile phone.”
Kid: “Yippeee!!”
Parent: “It’s the cheapest mobile phone I can find. There’s no camera on it and it only accepts one phone number: mine. I signed up for a special package that allows only 1 hour of calls per month. That should take care of even the gravest of emergencies you may have.”
Kid: “Uh, thanks.”
Parent: “Just tying to be a good parent.”
AaronGuzman on April 6, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Addendum:
What the kid doesn’t know is the mobile phone has a GPS tracker so the parent knows exactly where the kid is at all time.
AaronGuzman on April 6, 2009 at 3:58 PM
I lived in a city where when they caught a minor “tagging”, they punished the parents. The parents had to clean up or pay to have it cleaned up, plus they were fined.
Amazing how quick the problem was resolved…the parents begin parenting.
If the parents lost a week of work, and had to go to a “how to parent” program, and were fined, you would suddenly find parents doing what they should be doing, taking care and raising kids properly.
Punishing the kid won’t accomplish what they need, they need to learn that for every action, their is a result. Cause and effect, and the parents need to learn the same.
right2bright on April 6, 2009 at 3:59 PM
You’re OK for a couple more years. Watch out for the girls, though. They mature much earlier than boys than boys these days. My son has had girls throwing themselves at him since he was 13. Got his first “sexting” at 14, unsolicited, from a friend – not even a girlfriend. We found it on his phone and immediately notified the girl’s mother, who was horrified. He has gotten naked pictures over the phone, on his MySpace, in emails. It’s unbelievable to me. We took away his camera phone but he still gets pics from other people. We randomly check his messages on the phone and computer. He thinks we are ogres.
rockmom on April 6, 2009 at 4:00 PM
However petunia was not talking about “being concerned” with the behavior but someone actually being pleased that their son might be collecting pictures of naked girls.
As the father of 5 manly sons (and some daughters) I don’t see anything healthy about my sons indulging in pornography (hard or soft), on the contrary.
Men have a natural tendency to be VERY interested in this kind of thing and it is a real struggle, but in my opinion real strength is demonstrated by fighting back improper tendencies and defending the dignity of women, even though I can understand how it is possible that finding this type of material on their son’s possession might be somehow re-assuring for fathers who might otherwise have doubts regarding their son’s manliness.
neuquenguy on April 6, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Show and Tell is illegal?
faraway on April 6, 2009 at 4:24 PM
I certainly understand and respect this point of view. However, I LIKE TECHNOLOGY! I like cell phones. I like being able to talk to my daughter randomly when she is out with friends. I like to have her friend’s numbers on hand in case she doesn’t answer hers…
My oldest child is 27. When he was a child there was a lot of talk about how bad video games were going to be for kids… blah blah…. I liked the video games and paid attention and didn’t allow anything too violent. And several years later scientists decided these games were actually helping prepare children for the technological world they would live in. Being familar with and not afraid of technology turned out to be a positive not a negative. Plus it was fun.
I worry about my daughter’s seeming ability to text but not talk to her friends… I’ve seen a bunch of teenagers sitting in a circle texting each other! They could have spoken and they did but they were texting at the same time. It is bewildering… but this is their world… I just have to work to keep up and watch for danger and try to help them make good decisions. I want them to fit in this brave new world.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 4:31 PM
It seems to be a social more/norm. I know that when I was 19 the drinking age for beer and wine in Colorado was 18, so it seems that federalism was alive and well up until the federal government got involved (coercion via state highway funding apparently got the states to comply to a national drinking age). You’ll get no argument from me that it makes no sense that an 16 year old can wield a weapon like a car, and 18 year old can vote and/or join the military but none of them can consume alcohol legally…
Mine was not a social commentary, it was fact.
People will break laws regardless, so what is your point? Did you mention that just because we outlaw murder, robbery, rape, speeding, drunk driving, cocaine, heroin, & LSD use that people still break those laws? Its not just kids and age limits, its humans in general. Laws are guidelines and humans tend to cross those guidelines at will, but usually with the knowledge that their actions have consequences…that is, unless you’re a Democrat, in which case you may be celebrated for your heroism in standing up to the enforcement of the law (see Illegal Aliens)
Geministorm on April 6, 2009 at 4:38 PM
FYI – I was looking at some pictures on my nephews phone yesterday (he was showing them to me. Vacation pix.) Anyway, there was a picture of a girl in there and she appeared to have on a bathing suit top or perhaps a bra. I’m sure I embarrassed him no end, but I told him that if he gets a picture of girl with her “stuff” hanging out, he’s to delete the picture right away because if his phone is confiscated and that picture is found on there, he could be charged with child porn. His eyes got huge. He had no idea. I don’t think these kids have a clue they could get in legal trouble.
Again, I told him to delete any picture like that, and two, if he got his phone taken at school, etc., he is to take out the battery and give them the phone.
Just talk to your kids. They may truly be unaware.
Oink on April 6, 2009 at 4:40 PM
I agree. I do the same thing right down to the friends’ phone numbers. It gives me some peace of mind.
Oink on April 6, 2009 at 4:42 PM
I was responding to the speculation (by petunia at 3:17) about why no parents are hoping that their daughters are posting naked pictures of themselves.
The scenario described implied a father being OK with his son looking at naked girls but that same father being not OK with his daughter posing for photos.
Obviously there is a difference between posing and viewing, but there is also a bigger concern parents have about the possible sexual activity of their daughters than their sons. There are at least two reasons for this 1.) Pregnancy extracts a higher cost on the woman; 2.) Society has traditionally viewed men as “experienced” while women are seen as “used”. We could disagree on the fairness of this perception, but it seems indisputable that it has existed for a long time and continues (though less so) today.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Agree.
Oink on April 6, 2009 at 4:44 PM
This is where parents come in:
Don’t do nude photos. Don’t text them, or post nude photos on facebook. Don’t trust friends to keep photos you take together, or that you send, private. Don’t take nude photos of a girl, and don’t spread photos around. Any photo can and will be used against you. There are lifelong consequences to this behavior…
Buy Danish on April 6, 2009 at 4:44 PM
My poor little boy is just an American kid in a school full of teenage Chinese girls. Who knows what could happen to him?
DarkCurrent on April 6, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Even if the guy tells his high school girlfriend that he’ll love her forever and that he only wants the pictures so he can always feel close to her and that he would never, no way, ever show the pictures to his friends. You mean not even then?
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 4:53 PM
This a real slippery slope. If a 17 year old boy gets a pic from an underage girl yesterday, it’s OK. Today is his birthday and he is now 18. He is an adult with child porn on his phone. Yesterday he was a kid. Today he’s a sex predator.
Guardian on April 6, 2009 at 4:53 PM
I just re-read my post and I don’t see how you think I said that thinking it was sensible. I was just showing the ridiculous inconsistancy there seems to be where in some places (like the ACLU) we worry about kids eating twinkies in school, but “sexting” is a protected right?
Yes, I agree, parents need to be parents. But child porn is a crime, no matter who is distributing it and why. We need a 0 tolerance policy and phone priveledges revoked (not sure about the Sex offendor labeling).
Daemonocracy on April 6, 2009 at 5:04 PM
Law enforcement should only get involved if it reaches a level of scale. So a pair of 15 year olds caught in school with jpegs on the cameras should be punished and their parents notified. While a pair of 15 year olds who are running a web site with streaming sex acts should have to deal with the police.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 5:07 PM
As sad as I am to say this I actually think DTMH has a legetimate point with this post. We seem to want a double standard on convicted felons. Not just on “sex offenders” which is too broadly applied in most states but with all convicted felons. We expect them to pay their debt to society then become contributing members of society yet even after they successfully complete all stages of the system we still demonize them then wonder why it is so hard for them to return to society. Don’t misunderstand me I do believe that there are classes of sex offenses that should have a life long penalty (it should be a true life sentence or banishment) but not every person in the country who is classified as a registered sex offender is a risk to re-offend. As far as these kids and their sexting, make them understand that once you post something like that it is there forever. People (not just kids and teens) need to remember that once you post something on the internet it is there forever. And that is a place where actions always have consequences
JKotthoff on April 6, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Ummm… Yeah especially then. Would you (adult you) believe that touching story of undying devotion and love?
Nuff bull, wanna be close? get close. End of discussion.
bigskinny on April 6, 2009 at 5:12 PM
Umm.. It might be a good idea to Mirandize life.
You have the right to remain silent. (typically a good idea) Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law (or the court of public opinion). You have the right to an attorney present during questioning (please take advantage of a third parties insight). If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights?
After taking that into account you are pretty well immunized.
By the way you can also look at it from the point of view of what possible good can come from “sexting” beyond the short term titilation? Immediately followed by very large, very long term dammage possibilities beyond your control.
bigskinny on April 6, 2009 at 5:19 PM
‘fraid so :)
Buy Danish on April 6, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Wow… did you mean to “jump the shark”?
E L Frederick (Sniper One) on April 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Folks,
The question isn’t whether it should be legal or not, the question is, “Why are so many kids passing around nude pics of themselves that it’s become an issue?” This is the sexual revolution amplified by 40 million watts, and it’s a freakin’ disaster. I don’t care what snickering porn sessions you survived as a teen, what these kids are doing is light years beyond what you grew up with (assuming you’re over 30,) and it indicates a distortion in self-image and expectations for relationships that will result in horrible things just down the road. They’re using raw sex to plug holes in their self-esteem, and that spells “sex addiction.”
We don’t need new laws, or even old laws, we need an entire generation of parents to wake the hell up and start cracking down on teen porn of all sorts. Monitor the damn computer, take away the camera, crank down controls on which TV shows and movies they watch, and teach your kids a sound sexual ethic that will protect them from manipulation, unwanted pregnancy and an epidemic of venereal diseases (80 MILLION HPV and genital herpes cases in America.)
You might even consider death threats: premarital sex will kill you. Not “you might get AIDS, which is fatal,” but “If I find out you’ve been having sex, I will kill you.”
philwynk on April 6, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Doing nothing is an option.
AbaddonsReign on April 6, 2009 at 6:02 PM
I don’t care what society has traditionally viewed. There is such a thing as right and wrong.
An “experienced” man is damaged goods in my world. If you don’t expect a man to be faithful to his future wife while he is single, don’t expect him to be faithful after he is married.
There is nothing sexy about someone who will do it with anything that moves.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM
right2bright on April 6, 2009 at 6:19 PM
Do you know what is better than knowing your kid’s friend’s number? You kid’s friend’s parent’s number. In the old days there was a UPF; United Parents’ Front. Every parent knew each other, agreed on what was acceptable and unacceptable behavior among kids, kept an eye on them and made sure they stayed on the straight and narrow.
Can we honestly say parents still do that nowadays?
AaronGuzman on April 6, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Tradition is a core conservative value going back at least to the time of Burke who believed that tradition embodied the wisdom of generations in opposition to the latest intellectual fad.
Your moral principles are valid and perhaps right, however, there are valid reasons why, over the centuries, parents have protected the sexuality of their daughters more closely than that of their sons.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 6:42 PM
Children, underage, are assumed to be lacking in full discretion and understanding on decisions that may affect them the rest of their lives.
Once a photo or sex message is released it is no longer protected. It is often available on intermediate servers. to hackers, or to people who access a phone or computer, by accident, availability or theft.
What is going on now is a world of license that may come back to haunt young people who really do not understand the long term implications of their behaviour.
They are encouraged by the open displays on cable where reality shows promote easy public sex with multiple partners, cheater shows catch crass suspects for amusement, and Springer type shows encourage bestial behaviour and words to trigger barbaric wrestling matches for the roaring crowd
Kids are being seduced to believe it is normal behaviour and they think as long as disease is not transmitted it is inconsequential.
Since adults have decided that public barbarism on cable is OK, kids have accepted the norm.
Now the question is, should society move in to protect kids from a degraded reputation by use of the law, or shall they leave the kids to the weak parenting that allows this evil to grow, and the corrupt schools that have normalized sexual behaviour by children with their polices to supply goods and services for sexual safety without a moral framework
The State is the worst control. The State via the courts has acted to separate morality from decision making, and now the State is the only thing left that might save these kids from their own track records later in life
entagor on April 6, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Nope. I have had other kid’s parents lie straight to me. I once told my son he couldn’t sleep over at someone’s house I didn’t know. He did anyway and when I called the house he was supposed to be at… the Mom lied and said he was at her house. Later, when my son called me he told me the truth and then he came home.
Also, that story I told earlier about the girls sending the picts out. The Mom of the girl who did it was mad at the other Moms and didn’t think it was a big deal. She thought it was funny to send a picture of a 14 year-old boy’s genitals around to girls who knew him at school! Her daughter didn’t even get grounded!
Sometimes you are just alone in teaching what’s right and what’s wrong.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 6:46 PM
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 6:42 PM
How long does it take for traditions to establish? One generation? Two generations?
Also the traditions of larger society are not followed by sub-groups within society. My views are the tradition in my sub-society. And they have been for several generations now. I come from a long line of people married once and life. Not everyone measures up. But if you set expectations low you get low results.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 6:52 PM
To think there was a time that wasn’t exactly less moral in the past. They got along just fine without going Falwell on morals. The standard was more of “what the community would tolerate” over some predefined line. Less “off by a day, branded for life” and more of the practical age limits. Even those lower limits kept the ne’er do’ells in check.
No thanks, but let’s keep Falwell, Bakker and the overreacting Moral Minority back in the 1980′s.
What the parent doesn’t know is that their kid has taken up a certain interest in electronics that has that GPS part of it made useless and the number-restrictions lifted off the phone. They only see a stock phone.
Besides, it’s quite hard these days to get a camera-less phone anyhow. You can, but you’re going to pay a lot more for it.
It’s a shame kids don’t use proper cryptography to keep these things private(where age of consent is under 18). Much more that it’s not simple enough to easily teach that to the average teenager.
sethstorm on April 6, 2009 at 7:28 PM
America grew up from the Moral Majority over-reaction.
This is a case of where the law is being screwy with mismatched ages of consent. That in turn creates the strange social situations where consent exists – but where there’s the opportunity for overly litigious folk to smack people with the law.
I’d say fix the laws so that it is evaluated on a case-by-case basis. If you’re going to be playing with forces such as scarlet letters, you might as well save them for the actual predators – not the ones created by clever lawyers.
sethstorm on April 6, 2009 at 7:38 PM
A tradition would likely need more than two generations and would gain weight over time.
To the question in this thread, I think stopping kids from sexting falls with the schools and parents–not with police officers who should focus on violent offenders.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Making death threats is illegal and is a gross overreaction to sexual activity. It’s also a great way to alienate yourself and abolish any line of communication you thought you had with your kids.
jonknee on April 6, 2009 at 7:50 PM
As a police detective who investigates these cases for a mid- size police department, I can tell you that there is no one size fits all answer to this problem. I get 2- 3 cases of sexting a month. The majority are cases in which a boyfriend and girlfriend took pictures, sent them to each other, broke up, and one or the other of them has started sending the photos to other peers. Parents find out, get hysterical, and I have a new case.
Usually in those cases I obtain copies of the offending photos, sit down with both sets of parents, and tell them that I could charge both sets of kids for manufacturing and distributing child pornography. that usually calms everybody down and that’s the end of it. The pictures get submitted to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children as known victims of child pornography. That way they can be used against the real adult predators who are just as happy to collect the awkward amateur teen porn as they are to collect the commercially produced stuff. They need both kinds to trade for more.
However, there are juvenile predators who use subterfuge and blackmail to obain these photos from other kids. I’ve seen kids create fake profiles on MySpace in which they posed as members of the opposite sex to get photos of their classmates. I’ve seen videos filmed with camera phones in which the kid on the video asks why the phone is out only to be told that the suspect was “just sending a text.”
A one size fits all rule that decriminalizes the possession of child pornography for juveniles fails to recognize that we do have child predators in our society who are children themselves. Harsh as it sounds, we need the ability to punish the kids who need punishing in the hopes that their behavior can be corrected while they are still juveniles.
Dukeboy01 on April 6, 2009 at 7:54 PM
Hey, any reason to put peoples monkey children behind bars is good enough for me. Throw the book at them. Leave them in long enough they won’t want to take nekkid pictures of themselves by the time they get out.
austinnelly on April 6, 2009 at 7:57 PM
Dukeboy01 on April 6, 2009 at 7:54 PM
I’m glad the photo can be used later to prosecute adults who may use them. That is a good reason to contact police.
petunia on April 6, 2009 at 8:06 PM
This is just a thought exercise but how about this as a proposed law: Make sure the law states that possession of child pornography, no matter the age, of yourself, is legal. If you send the photo to another party that person has an affirmative defense that they received it from the subject of the photograph. Any further dissemination of the photograph uses the normal legal rules.
Ash on April 6, 2009 at 8:11 PM
Interesting points well thought out.
dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 8:11 PM
I think the best and most conservative thing to do is to explain detail the consequences of sexting to kids. I believe the criminalization of sexting is stupid, which makes it even more important that kids understand what might happen if he or she is caught with such pictures on their person.
I sympathize with DarkCurrent, by the way. As a woman myself, I think it would be somewhat strange for a teenage boy in the USA not to have porn.
Also, unlike those poor oppressed females in Islamist countries, American girls are usually not defenseless victims. When the virile sons of American men exploit them, it is usually with their permission. ;)
Frivolous on April 6, 2009 at 8:58 PM
Stupid on one hand to get arrested for taking pictures of oneself, but on the other hand adults that have these pics would be arrested in a heartbeat and registered as sex offenders…even if no sex was involved…even if they didn’t take the pictures…even if the pictures aren’t pornographic…even if they never even contacted the kid.
I’ll buy into the “Oh, but we have to protect the children” deal when teenage girls have to start wearing sack cloth and are forbidden to wear bikinis in public.
Fundamentally, the Government has waaaaay too many ways to put people in jail for a myriad of trivial reasons. Meanwhile, the next shooting massacre or 9-11 is looming on the horizon, and they’re booking people for not having their vehicle registrations squared away, having some weed on them, the IRS has thousands of agents to harass people and be the envy of any Cosa Nostra mobster…
But, golly gee, they just never seem to have the ‘resources’ to stop violent offenders, control illegal immigration, stop Madoff types from ripping off people, etc.
Because they’re busy with junk like this.
Dr. ZhivBlago on April 6, 2009 at 10:09 PM
The things I did with my neighbor Tammy when we were both 12 would have us both registered as a sex offenders right now.
Not to mention the Streaking fad in the late ’70s when small groups of us would run butt nekkid through town at midnight; and the skinny-dipping partys (all participants underaged) at Lamar Park…
Thank God we live in a much more proper and decent world now.
/sarc
Ugly on April 6, 2009 at 11:58 PM
I haven’t read this thread in detail, but here’s my thoughts:
1. Have some sort of penalty for “sexting” for minors but don’t label them as “sexual offenders”. The behavior should be discouraged but a “sexual offender” label could ruin their entire life and that seems a little harsh for a kid who doesn’t really understand what they’re doing.
2. Keep, or increase, penalties for adults who possess any such material.
beancounter on April 7, 2009 at 12:11 AM
The only reason why this has become an issue is because, the law being gender neutral, girls are being prosecuted for sex crimes for a change.
There’s an 18 year old man in a Michigan jail for taking nude photographs of his 17 year old girlfriend. She was old enough to have sex with him legally but being a minor, nude photos of her are considered “kiddie porn” so he was prosecuted. When it’s men who are jailed and prosecuted, nobody cares.
In the wealthy Detroit suburb of Gross Pointe there was a high school sex ring with senior boys having sex with younger girls. The prosecutor only charged the boys over 18 with statutory rape. He didn’t charge the boys under 18, though they were just as guilty, because if he charged the minor males for having sex with a minor female, he’d have to charge the females for having sex with minor males.
Since sex crime laws now exist to promote the feminist agenda, we can’t very well have females punished for these crimes.
rokemronnie on April 7, 2009 at 12:53 AM
I think judges should be given more power to decide the fate of the accused in border line cases. I know it’s a patriotic thing to say that the entire branch of our government is dysfunctional. Still I think it’s mostly working. Any line in the sand will be ridiculous in some instances. This is where judges need to exercise discretion.
I agree that 16 yr olds exchanging naked pictures is bad but it should result in a lifelong sex offended label. But if it’s 10 year olds then I don’t think anyone would tolerate that. So there’s gonna be some cut off age, which is arbitrary but unavoidable.
Again, judges should have common sense and decide based ont the facts available if they are dealing with a predator and a victim or two stupid teenagers.
radiofreevillage on April 7, 2009 at 2:14 AM
The ease and the speed at which one can transfer images is what makes Polaroids and Sexts two totally different things.
I feel sorry for the kids, but, yes, why not brand them for life? It’s not like their self-awareness and sexuality is not already irreparably damaged.
misslizzi on April 7, 2009 at 4:12 AM
I like Ed’s take on this. I think the middle ground has to be found that recognizes both that kids taking nude pictures of themselves aren’t necessarily child pornographers and that they could possibly be child pornographers. There are some pretty savvy and pretty screwed up 13 years olds who would try running through that loophole, but I mean, I used to take photos of my ass as jokes when I was a kid, and if I went to jail as a child pornographer for that it would’ve been absolutely ridiculous.
Kids are having sex at like 14 and 15, I steered clear of it, but most of my friends didn’t. It wasn’t because their parents weren’t involved, it wasn’t because they were simply immoral kids who lacked a sense of decency, it’s because they wanted to have sex and they could have sex. There used to be a bigger social stigma on it, but times have changed. It’s the business of the government to protect children from predators, but getting involved beyond that is a ridiculous intrusion.
galenrox on April 7, 2009 at 7:05 AM
The best solution?
Don’t get your kid a cell phone with a camera. I recommend blocking text messaging and phone mail as well. (Most good phone companies will have this option available. I know Sprint does.) Better yet, get a plain vanilla pay-as-you-go phone so you can limit how much they use it overall.
Yes, they will whine and complain that it’s “uncool” to carry a phone with no camera, but you will have removed temptation from their path. It is FAR too easy to give in to temptation and send or receive nudie pics. Most young girls and boys (girls in particular) are under TREMENDOUS pressure to become sexually active as early as possible. Sexting is just a first step down that road.
What another poster mentioned about the pics going viral is right. It takes no time at all to spend some time on one of the *chans and you can find self-taken images of teens in various states of undress obviously taken with camera phones and digital cameras. Once posted to the internet the image is on the internet FOREVER as it will be posted and reposted in various places.
I think it’s going to be interesting when, 20-30 years from now, one of these less than bright girls, now a grown woman and married with kids, will find a naked picture of her younger self on her son’s phone or PC. It’s going to happen, if it hasn’t happened already.
wearyman on April 7, 2009 at 8:07 AM
Great post, wearyman.
Sure, kids who really want texting phones will figure out a way to get them anyway, but why not make it as difficult for them as possible?
What also needs to happen is that a kid or two actually needs to get caught sexting by their parents, and for the parents to notify the other sexter’s parents or forward the sext over to the other sexter’s parents. Enough of that and I bet sexting would lose a significant portion of its popularity.
misslizzi on April 7, 2009 at 9:29 AM
Have parental controls on cell phones with cameras – have it set so all texts with attachments are automatically cc’d to the parents’ email address. This would put an immediate stop to all photos of any questionable ilk from being sent around.
I highly doubt cell phone companies would want to go through this hassle – they’d make less money since less texting would happen.
Dave Rywall on April 7, 2009 at 10:08 AM
A lttle sunshine can stop a great deal of hidden behavior. Having parents and teachers see what you think is private…
A few years ago some of the girls in our neighborhood posted some inappropriate pictures on MySpace and claimed to be much older, etc. Some parents found out and contacted other parents! These girls were outraged that adults could just “invade their privacy” that way…
Privacy! When you publish pictures for all the world to see… Kids really don’t get it.
petunia on April 7, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Much like prosecuting people for using drugs, wouldn’t you say?
Mark Jaquith on April 7, 2009 at 12:12 PM
This entire topic makes me completely nuts.
We have so lost perspective in this country.
AnninCA on April 7, 2009 at 2:21 PM
No. This country has gone insane.
-Dave
Dave R. on April 7, 2009 at 2:35 PM
If someone has a teen who cannot handle the meager responsibility of having a cell phone just take the thing away! Perhaps it is the piss poor upbringing of the kid that should be a crime …
Wait!
DannoJyd on April 8, 2009 at 6:32 AM
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