http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/06/morris_newsweek_christian/

It’s a penchant that forms a pattern, a narrative. Meacham — a talented writer and editor, but untrained in theology — pooh-poohed the film “The Passion of the Christ” as theologically inaccurate and unimportant (until it became a spectacular box office success, at which time, the magazine shifted its focus to the mysterious phenomenon of so many people being positively moved by what film critics and liberal theologians so despised).

Newsweek seems bent on redefining America as a nation of disbelief — or of secular belief (made in one’s own image and likeness) — while hoping earnestly America will retain its moral character.

He then disgraced the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and his own profession, by employing her most vicious critic, atheist Christopher Hitchens, to pen the magazine’s analysis of her life and spirituality. In December 2008, Meacham pushed further the envelope of creative theology with an article titled “The Biblical Case for Gay Marriage” that was so pathetically ideological, smart gay marriage proponents have ignored the unprofessional exegesis as unhelpful to their cause.

But none of these examples is as important for understanding Newsweek’s faith-based secular agenda as this week’s article about the “decline and fall of Christian America”. Editor Jon Meacham wrote the article himself, and timed it perfectly for the Christian celebration of Easter, even though the data the article presents from the American Religious Identification Survey was available many weeks earlier.

right4life on April 6, 2009 at 8:06 AM

The ability to frame another persons beliefs and arguments into and untenable position was a useful skill for Lincoln Douglas in high school, but it avails us nothing in reaching common ground. You continue to misuse my words and the words of others and proscribe meaning and intent that is not there.

As much as you strain to dress it up, modern evolutionary theory does not address the existence of god any more than one man, ie. Provine represents the whole of science evolutionary theory.

However it has become abundantly clear to me that you have no interest in common ground and will settle for nothing less than the exclusion of ideals that don’t fit your meme into he political process. Good luck with that.

The proof is in the natural history of our planet and like all history is understood only through echoes from the past. The fossil record, genetic analysis, comparative analysis of organisms, all point to the scientific consensus that Evolution is not a controversial theory. It is fine if this does not meet your personal standard for proof in such matter, but it is inaccurate to state that Evolutionary theory is not substantiated by the scientific method.

I am done with this thread, so make your last shot a good one. Further I will cede to you the title of “Conservative” I abhor labels anyway and it seems so important to you. Heck lets go one step further and declare you the “uber conservative”. The arbiter of Conservative though in our time. Enjoy.

Most rabbinical scholars read Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, rather than the Messiah. However, if you were to read it as a prophecy of the Messiah would it be accurate to refer to the son of God as a “servant” as Isaiah does?

dedalus on April 6, 2009 at 10:45 AM

dedalus, Jesus came as a servant:

Mark 10:45 For truly the Son of man did not come to have servants, but to be a servant, and to give his life for the salvation of men. — Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:5  Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus.
6  Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.8  And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.
9  It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other,
10  in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld,
11  and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.
.

Religion is a cyclical thing. Liberals think they can kill it – so did the Romans … ah well.

When religion dies – human kind dies. Our entire existence is grounded in at least the “belief” that there is a higher power. If there is not a higher power – than … we are animals. If we are animals – why not behave like them? Why not grab everything from this life that we can possible grab? Why not lie, steal, cheat – why … even murder is an acceptable act if there is not God to punish you.

So when things get so bad … when we hit rock bottom – religion will return. How do I know this? I know this because I used to be an atheist. What changed me was serving on a nuclear submarine during the cold war in the 80’s. We were at deep depth … and experienced flooding of a fairly serious magnitude. I didn’t panic … I was trained to take certain action – which I took in an almost robotic fashion. I knew I was going to die … there was not a doubt in my mind and …

I prayed. I prayed for survival. And you know what …

ALL HUMANS DO IN THAT SITUATION – matters not if they are an atheist – they get converted fast. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Religion cannot be killed. Though silly liberals think they can kill it.

HondaV65 on April 4, 2009 at 10:00 PM

You make some excellent points in this post!

If there is not a higher power – than … we are animals. If we are animals – why not behave like them? Why not grab everything from this life that we can possible grab? Why not lie, steal, cheat – why … even murder is an acceptable act if there is not God to punish you.

This is probably one of the major motivations for evolution theory. Jews and Christians believe that mankind is in a “fallen” state since the sin of Adam and Eve, and needs salvation and mercy from God to reach Heaven and eternal happiness, and God asks for obedience to His Commandments.

Evolution theory turns this upside down, by stating that humans are “better” than animals, and have “improved” OURSELVES (without God) over many generations, and “survival of the fittest” essentially means those who kill more and avoid being killed are more “fit” than others to survive. Evolution theory removes the need for moral justification before a higher power, and celebrates killing (and lying and cheating as evidence of intelligence) as a means for survival. It enables immoral men to justify their actions by “science” and NOT having to answer to a higher power, although it does not save them from death. Hitler, for one, used evolution theory to consider Jews as an “inferior race” to be exterminated.

So when things get so bad … when we hit rock bottom – religion will return.

I had a similar experience, hitting “rock bottom” before finding faith, and I sincerely believe that many proud or stubborn atheists (as I was) need to be humbled and brought to a “nothing to lose, rock bottom” situation before they turn to God. As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes, and when faced with imminent death, many people pray for the first time in their lives.

It seems throughout history that the most oppressed people seem to have the strongest faith in God, and that those who live in prosperity and have a relatively easy life tend to “take it for granted”, become complacent, and not thank God, or believe that they have achieved it themselves. Although there are a few who achieve great success, yet keep their faith, such as Louis Pasteur, who wrote that “a little science turns a person away from God, a lot of science turns him toward God.”

ALL HUMANS DO IN THAT SITUATION – matters not if they are an atheist – they get converted fast. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

It is said that “necessity is the mother of invention”, and perhaps desperation is the mother of faith. But, sadly, not “all humans do in that situation”–some people proudly shake their fist at God with their dying breath. My own mother died last March 24, yet my father was vehemently resisting any attempts before her death by others to talk to her about faith, give her last rites, or have others pray over her body after death. He argued against imposing MY views on her, but what was SHE thinking when facing her own death? I wonder what he will do when approaching his own death…

Evolution theory can give people an excuse for immoral “animal” behavior , where ends (survival) justify the means, and can give people a false sense of pride that “the human species” will be perfected over countless generations, but it doesn’t solve the problem of a person’s own death.

Religion offers the hope of a better life after death, in exchange for obedience to a higher power and Creator. Some may believe it to be a “crutch for the lame” or the “opium of the people”, but at the moment of death, what is the alternative?

All the atheists on this thread should consider Pascal’s Wager–either there is a God or there isn’t. If a person believes there is a God, and is wrong, he/she will die satisfied having lived a good life in service to others, and if there is a God, he/she will receive an eternal reward-a win/win proposition.

If a person does not believe in God, and is right, they go into peaceful oblivion, but if they’re wrong, they might be facing Hell.

suggest you read Isaiah 53 and tell me that the suffering servant is not a part of the prophecy of Christ. Who else in history does that point to more than he? And it was written 700 years before Christ’s birth!
Christian Conservative on April 5, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Most rabbinical scholars read Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, rather than the Messiah. However, if you were to read it as a prophecy of the Messiah would it be accurate to refer to the son of God as a “servant” as Isaiah does?

To say that Jesus has left some prophecies unfulfilled is a mission for Captain Obvious, of course He did. Do the math on the other 100.

The very fact that the Jewish culture exists 2500 years after the Jews were taken into captivity by the Babylonians, and that they now have their very own nation again as God promised OUGHT to be all the proof anyone needs.

All ancient cultures on earth are gone but one and they returned to their very own nation. Oh yah, just lucky I guess. What a coincidence.

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2009 at 3:37 PM

The prophecies are evidence since Jesus fulfilled many, but not all? It seems less obvious that God would create the prophecies through the OT prophets and then not fulfill all of them. The prophecies that predict the Messiah will bring peace to Israel and happiness for all Jewish people don’t address the destruction of the nation by the Romans around 70AD, subsequent diaspora, and centuries of persecution (much done in Christ’s name) before the creation of Israel after WWII.

I reject your need to ascribe my position as an act of faith.

you can ‘reject it’ all you want, its like saying the sky is green…doesn’t matter…post your proof, you have none.

all you can do is extrapolate micro to macro…and there ain’t none, sorry…

The existential questions of God and Creation are not adressed by any science

I just quoted Provine, and he speaks for evolution, in a way that you do not. and he’s not the only one.

This is not me, so stop painting me with that brush.

so you have your own private theory of evolution? unless you’re a published evolutionist, provine speaks for evolution, you do not.

I frequently vote for people of faith, but I would never cast my vote for someone that was as dissmissive and ignorant of the science behind the issues.

just like I would never for for a faux-conservative like you. post your proof, lets see your ‘science’…bet I have far more substantiation for my position that you do yours…

Wha…? Sort of a weird thing to claim barely 2 years after Tiktaalik, one of the most important fossil finds in the history of paleontology.

You do realize that you just qouted a 28 year old print reference in a periodical?

Hochmeister on April 5, 2009 at 3:32 PM

You do realize that means it’s been at least 20 years since fossils have been considered a dead-end by big money evolutionists?

Christian Conservative on April 6, 2009 at 12:53 AM

A literal reading of the prophecies doesn’t support those interpretations. I’m not saying that because Jesus didn’t fulfill what may or may not have even supposed to have been prophecies about him that Christianity is false, but it seems beside the point. The truth of it should be self-evident, without need of study or contemplation, only a willingness to believe. I think it demeans religion to say that the rewards of heaven are more accessible with education or worldliness.

RightOFLeft on April 6, 2009 at 12:20 AM

I respect your right not to believe, but you dismiss the yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecies with the already-fulfilled ones. Obviously as a non-believer you don’t believe that Christ will shut the kings mouths, but that time is coming. The New Testament prophesies of that.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called, The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the wine-press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And if you want talk about form marred, consider that The Passion of the Christ might have been a pretty good depiction of what He looked like after the flogging and at the crucifixion.

Oh, and He did it for you, RightOFLeft, because He loves you. I say that sincerely, for He made a way so that “whosoever will may come.”

Christian Conservative on April 5, 2009 at 10:35 PM

I suggest you read Isaiah 52:14-15.

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [c]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—

15 so will he sprinkle many nations, [d]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Every portrait of him shows a pretty sharp-looking dude. He didn’t sprinkle any nations. The only king who might have known he existed, the Roman emperor, didn’t shut his mouth. The prophecies are all either self-fulfilling, vague enough to be satisfied in many ways, or flat-out wrong. I’d be a Christian if that weren’t true.

I believe in the Big Bang. I believe in the laws of physics. I believe in evolution, and survival of the fittest, and an Earth that is billions of years old.

I also believe in God, and my natural skepticism largely informs that belief. I am too cynical to believe this perfect balance of “natural law” could exist through mere accident or coincidence. There HAS to be something else at work orchestrating this grand, complex thing known as the universe, and for me, God explains all of that. I don’t think you can have science without God.

Having said all of that, it does seem that many of the things that have been prophesied in the Bible appear to be coming true in our time. I am far from a Biblical scholar, but I often wonder if we’re not witnessing the end times.

As far as people becoming less religious however, this doesn’t really concern me. I think this is just the natural swinging of the cultural pendulum. It will swing back again; it always does. And for those who choose not to believe, I say that’s their business. Christians can pray for them if they want to, but ultimately that’s between them and God.

http://www.victory.com/Watch/

God bless y’all! And remember, if you let a hypocrite get between you and God, then the hypocrite is closer to God than you are!

right4life on April 5, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Faith is belief without proof. If you believe something because you judge it to be proven, it is not faith. If your judgment is wrong, either by bad facts or a poor rationale, then your belief is wrong, but it still is not faith–it’s bad judgment. While I get, and respect, that you disagree with my views, I reject your need to ascribe my position as an act of faith.

The existential questions of God and Creation are not adressed by any science. Those who attempt to point to the science as proof “there is no god” are engaging in activisim in the missuse of scientific facts to nurture a world view where their is no room for faith. This is not me, so stop painting me with that brush.

I frequently vote for people of faith, but I would never cast my vote for someone that was as dissmissive and ignorant of the science behind the issues.

Do you really believe that you can influence the political process with such a narrow definition of your allies?

yeah actually we can. sorry the green-eye-shade types never evoke much enthusiasm or passion. without the social issues its a dull campaign. look at the whole gay marriage debate, lots of passion, victoriy whenever its tried…even among traditional ‘liberal’ constituents in CA.

Evolution is not a philosophy or even a way of looking at the world. It is a process who’s effect is evident only with the passage of millions of years. It is a thing–neither moral or amoral

please, it is a theory of everything, a religion…as provine understands….

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.”

Provine, William B. [Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University], “, “Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life”, Abstract of Will Provine’s 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address.

Sorry but that is a differant question. The simple fact that animals are influenced developmentatlly by their environment over millions of years (natural selection) is an independent theory of multicellular genisis. Science does not have all the answers, but that is no reason to deny the answers we do have.

sorry its not. evolution says everything evolved from a single-celled ancestor…common ancestry…so multi-cellular animals had to evolve….so duplicate it. evolution doesn’t have any answers, obviously.

Wow, I am for small government, part of that means the goverment shhould not be in the business of telling people what to think or believe in. I don’t own a brown shirt. See any common ground here?

this is what darwiniacs do. ask Sternberg or Gonzales.

I am really tired of explaining the difference between faith and scientific method. I am devoid of faith. You have a black and white view of the world and your projecting those same contrasts to my thinking.

sigh, obviously you do have faith. you have faith in evolution…that somehow this just ‘happened’. with no God. no Designer. you cannot show evolution in the fossil record, you cannot throw a few chemicals together and create life…and yes thats a part of evolution…and you cannot see evolution in the fossil record…so you believe something you cannot see…its called faith.

Your against small government? What are you for then?

the ‘small government only’ types are half conservative…you know the lukewarm conservative..the moderate…nothing worse….its like a weightlifter or bodybuildy who is too lazy to do squats and only works on upper body…they have proven again and again not to be worthy of any support…or even to be called conservative.

It’s inevitable…when people start getting interested in Christianity, some Sister Aimee type will come along.

its the truth. evolution is a big lie. and you can’t be a conservative evolutionist…its an oxymoron. you’re supposed to believe in CHANGE (and hope?). how can evolution, which is basically amoral, square with conserving anything???

I never claimed to be a social conservative, but the political ideas that are most important to me are conservitive. Do you really believe that you can influence the political process with such a narrow definition of your allies?

Evolution is not a philosophy or even a way of looking at the world. It is a process who’s effect is evident only with the passage of millions of years. It is a thing–neither moral or amoral.

really? well then why don’t you go and evolve a bacteria into a multi-cellular animal? can’t you say? you need more time? just proves your ’science’ is faith.

Sorry but that is a differant question. The simple fact that animals are influenced developmentatlly by their environment over millions of years (natural selection) is an independent theory of multicellular genisis. Science does not have all the answers, but that is no reason to deny the answers we do have.

and given the behavior of your brown-shirted darwiniacs, who try to silence, sue, and harass all who disagree, its a threat to freedom.

Wow, I am for small government, part of that means the goverment shhould not be in the business of telling people what to think or believe in. I don’t own a brown shirt. See any common ground here?

sorry, I don’t your respect your faith (evolution) because its patently false. nothing in the lab, nothing in the fossil record, and a history of racism, an eugenics.

I am really tired of explaining the difference between faith and scientific method. I am devoid of faith. You have a black and white view of the world and your projecting those same contrasts to my thinking.

no, I will never unite around the ’small government’ types of conservatives because they’re not really conservative.

Your against small government? What are you for then?

Jesus didn’t address those prophecies. dedalus on April 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Oh sure He did when He promised to return. A biblical generation lasts 40 years. (Still with me?)

Jerusalem was utterly destroyed 40 years after Christ’s resurrection. (Still with me?)

God gave his chosen people exactly one generation to figure things out about Messiah. Then his city was destroyed to the utmost. (Still with me?)

Another one of the scores of specific prophecies is that Messiah would be in the line of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesse, and King David. Jesus was, of course, from the line of David. After the destruction of Jerusalem and all of the genealogical records men can no longer prove lineage (which is necessary) to prove that you’re Messiah. (Still with me?)

Find a guy from the house of David, born in Bethlehem, killed when the prophet Daniel said he’d be, beaten with stripes, pierced, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, who lived in Bethlehem, Egypt, and Nazareth. And on and on and on.

To say that Jesus has left some prophecies unfulfilled is a mission for Captain Obvious, of course He did. Do the math on the other 100.

The very fact that the Jewish culture exists 2500 years after the Jews were taken into captivity by the Babylonians, and that they now have their very own nation again as God promised OUGHT to be all the proof anyone needs.

All ancient cultures on earth are gone but one and they returned to their very own nation. Oh yah, just lucky I guess. What a coincidence.

TMK on April 5, 2009 at 5:05 AM

You do realize that you just qouted a 28 year old print reference in a periodical?

The problem with your religion is that every time some new data comes up and spoils the formerly “established” and accepted doctrine, the priests hafta scurry around and come up with new orphic shroud for your sacred cow.

You do not get it. I attempt to understand the universe with the only process I know –rational and objective thought. By definition, that process evolves as new data comes in. It is probably wrong about a lot of things, but that does not invalidate scientific process. Clearly the process gets politisized and is highjacked by special interests, but that also does not invalidate the process.

The nature and existence of God is not a scientific matter. We are not going to be united on this point so lets start finding common ground. I am glad AP posts this stuff because we need to get this worked out between the factions.

Your head doesn’t keep you from God. Your heart does. As I see it you’re about 18 inches from heaven.

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith – if someone doesn’t believe, it’s because it is not their time. One of the ways that Christians have done the faith harm is by trying to take the kingdom by violence – using fear to coerce people into believing. One cannot live on a borrowed revelation. Let God be God.

I do not support organized religion, in fact I think it has done quite a bit of harm to faith in God. The backlash we are seeing is about organized religion, not faith in God.

The priest abuse scandal in the Catholic Church drove away many faithful adherents.

No, it didn’t. Anyone who left the Church over that was not a ‘faithful adherent’. Those who adhere to the Faith know that the failings of human members of the Church are no excuse to abandon that which was instituted by Christ, Himself. It was an excuse for them to leave. They did not abandon the sinful priest; they abandoned Christ in the Holy Eucharist, which is at the center of the Church. There is nothing, NOTHING, that a human being could do that would make me turn my back on the Truth of the Eucharist. And believe me, these liberation theologist, bongo playing, hand holding, liturgical dancing freaks have done their best, but I will never let them turn me away from Christ. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it…

I believe it, even when the demons are attacking from within.

Also, did anyone really need a poll to figure out that the United States is less Christian than it used to be? Sheesh. The thing that amazes me is that the secularists/atheists seem to revel in the confirmation. I don’t get it. Look around at the actual evidence. You really think this is a good thing? As Christianity declines, so does society. That should be further evidence of God for the non-believers, but alas…

The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves.