First Lady flub: no touching the Queen
posted at 8:47 am on April 2, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
This seems to be getting a lot of traction in the headlines, so let’s talk about Michelle Obama’s supposedly grand faux pas in meeting Queen Elizabeth II in London. Time Magazine reported that the British (which include the “English”) sputtered with indignation when the First Lady touched Elizabeth’s back. The reaction seems a little exaggerated, considering the circumstances, but it still broke protocol:
The rules are set in stone, and so the eagerly watching British media sputtered when the First Lady of the United States, Michelle Obama, briefly put her hand on the back of Queen Elizabeth II as the two chatted at a reception. …
Of course, there are corollaries to this. One must certainly touch the Queen if the monarch offers her hand (though you should return this not with a firm handshake but just a touch). On Wednesday, Michelle Obama put her hand on the Queen only after the Queen had placed her own hand on the First Lady’s back as part of their conversation. So there is room for theological argument as to whether the American reciprocity of touch was allowable given the social dynamics of the situation. …
In any case, the touch lasted just a second or two, and the Queen did not seem particularly perturbed — though she appeared slightly surprised as she drew away.
I’m not much a fan of royalty and the pomp that accompanies the monarchy, so I tend to see this as a much lesser offense than getting the name of the country wrong. The gesture from the Queen would normally prompt a human response of reciprocation. Time’s explanation of the miraculous healing powers of the Queen’s touch is interesting from a historical perspective, but since Americans don’t tend to believe such things about monarchs (we made that clear in 1776, although the Princess Di infatuation may have confused some people), Mrs. Obama’s treatment of Elizabeth II as a mere mortal is somewhat understandable.
Of course, diplomatic protocol exists for a reason, and it’s clear Mrs. Obama didn’t adhere to it, if she ever got instruction on it in the first place. As it turns out, she might not have had it, since her husband hasn’t gotten around to staffing the White House protocol office. Apparently, no one told Barack Obama that the State Department had staff to fill the gap, either:
Only a few weeks on the job, Obama created a minor diplo-mess when British Prime Minister Gordon Brown came to the U.S. for a visit. Obama’s historic Oval Office desk, a gift from Queen Victoria to Rutherford Hayes, is made from the timbers of the HMS Resolute. Brown proudly presented Obama with a pencil holder carved from its antislavery sister ship, the HMS Gannet. Classy! Obama lamely reciprocated with a DVD set of Hollywood movies, including “Psycho.” When Brown got back home, he discovered they didn’t work in his European player. “At a minimum you don’t want to give offense,” says a former White House official who helped orchestrate foreign visits for a previous president. “That was really phoning it in.” (The official, like others quoted here, asked not to be named disparaging a sitting president.) Apparently it was a rookie mistake. According to a person close to the situation, Obama hasn’t yet appointed a chief of protocol and his staffers, still unpacking, didn’t realize that the State Department has an entire office dedicated to foreign visits.
Hiring a chief of protocol isn’t as high a priority as staffing, say, the Treasury, but the position is quite obviously critical to not looking like Ugly Americans when traveling the globe as head of state. I don’t think anyone has called this the Greatest Transition Ever in a while now. I think the bloom has left that rose, and this is just another example of the problem. Obama really had no clue as to the scope of this job.
So yes, Mrs. Obama committed a a small breach of protocol, but it’s not on the same level as the Angela Merkel back rub or replacing “Great Britain” with England.
Note: Comments copied from Headlines post.
Update: The offending gesture, from the Daily Mail:
Eh. I just can’t get terribly worked up about this, since the Queen has her arm wrapped around Mrs. Obama.
Blowback
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Such a potty-mouth. No wonder you’re single. But your boyfriend loves you – really.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM
There’s a history of royals mirroring the inept social faux-pas of others as a gracious gesture to make the ‘little people’ feel at ease.
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM
No time. Deploying.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM
capitulus gets an A for spleen, F- for originality
runner on April 2, 2009 at 1:59 PM
Single and free and kept like a diva in half-million house in an upscale NJ suburb? You? College dorm reeking of gym socks or roach-infested PJ’s…which is it?
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Here’s a hint. The last thing she said to her boss was, “It’s Seans turn to clean the deep fryer!”
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:03 PM
BTW, In the way Crappytitless works the threads, this is her money shot to cut and paste over at DU and HuffPo to show what Neaderthals we all are.
Hey Crappy, take this last comment with you to paste with it.
“Piss off!”
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Del, Bush was consoling King Abdullah after the death of King Fahd, so if Fahd was hugged and kissed, he was in spirit form.
I pointed that out to her earlier, but I think she ignores stuff like that.
I miss Captains Quarters.
unclesmrgol on April 2, 2009 at 2:07 PM
lol…quite possible…or I hear they are allowing limited internet privileges to psychiatric patients in lockdown mental hospital wards these days…just sayin’, I’m all for the mentally unstable getting Google time, but don’t wanna leave him frothing at the mouth then have him get the padded room on my watch…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:07 PM
At least, she did not vomit all over herself in front of the Queen.
Or sneak up behind her and message her.
getalife on April 2, 2009 at 2:08 PM
yawn, crickets, this thread sure died.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Where did she vomit, again?
Obama Franks Waters LLC
unclesmrgol on April 2, 2009 at 2:10 PM
hawkdriver,
O/T here, but I want to sincerely thank you for your service to our country. I hope you and your unit stay safe on your upcoming deployment. This goes for all service men and women, on HotAir and everywhere.
rightthinkr on April 2, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Fine. But let’s assume that they’re lying in equal proportions regardless of geography. People in blue states who are meth addicts are as likely to lie as people in red states who are meth addicts. So – for every 5 people who admit to usage, there’s 2 who won’t. My point is still the same, the argument is still valid because the difference in proportion is the same (actually it’d grow, but no matter) – whoever I was arguing with is still wrong, I’m still right.
Proud Rino on April 2, 2009 at 2:13 PM
It’s me, Hawk, sorry…I always chase the chicken capitulus away…can’t handle me.
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:13 PM
If she offended Europeans she can’t be all bad.
Ted Torgerson on April 2, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Thanks, I know how you Hot Air regulars feel.
But Crappytitless is correct about one thing. I’m a man living on the edge. Prayers please, that I can “stabilize” when I get there. ;-)
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:15 PM
You must have reading comprehension skills. “Most” implies “more than 50%”, and there is no way 50% of the people here are saying it’s no big deal. Actually, “most” of the comments have been frothing with glee over this trivial non-issue. It’s starting to become the Hot Air Commenter M.O.
maleman on April 2, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Oh yeah, this thread is hot with constant, CONSTANT remarks about how outraged we are about obama touching the Queen.
There was almost no room for comments about how much the trolls smell like Big Macs.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:19 PM
2 observations. A. $500K doesn’t buy that much in NJ B. You’re a puta.
But it’s ok. Be proud of your lifestyle.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 2:20 PM
Anyway, I don’t believe you until you go back, categorize each comment and count them to see what the real percentage is. I need proof.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:22 PM
I only post this in an effort to better you and increase your future marketability. It’s Neanderthal – you forgot the d.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 2:23 PM
dang, you must’ve been googling the spanish word for slut all this time and looking up jersey property values and demo info–how crafty…good researching there, crap….you are a wonder…anyway, wrong, wrong, wrong, you don’t know dick about jersey…I said upscale not exclusive–big diff, dip….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Misogynist pig.
Heh, that’s fun.
TheUnrepentantGeek on April 2, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Thanks and you did without any missing words this time. Improvements on your part too. Congrats!
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:26 PM
And your mother is the puta. Not gratuitous. How do I know? She wouldn’t have banged that gorilla with the ten-pound sack thus siring you had she not been…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:27 PM
A prime example of the miraculous automated self-correcting feature of the getalife2009 model teleprompter.
A few minutes later, yours truly posts a NY Times account showing Pappy Bush did no such thing.
No problem!
Within minutes, getalife has already been rebooted.
“Better living through chemistry”
Del Dolemonte on April 2, 2009 at 2:28 PM
I miss CQ too.
Del Dolemonte on April 2, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Culero
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:31 PM
LoL..hawk, you kill me. I didn’t even know what that meant–had to look it up….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM
lol, I just looked at your correction again. You’re not very good at it are you? I forgot the “n” Einstein.
I should repost that earlier correction fiasco of yours.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Think gym socks is out researching more Spanish-language slurs for me…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:36 PM
Sie sind nichts anderes als filfth ein Schaum, der nicht gereinigt werden!
sheebe on April 2, 2009 at 2:37 PM
When I was in El Salvador in the 80s, you could be killed for calling someone, “Culero de la Playa.”
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:37 PM
sorry, got caught up…wanted to acknowledge your service as well–you guys don’t get it near enough…hats off, comrade.
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:39 PM
“And your mother is the puta. Not gratuitous. How do I know? She wouldn’t have banged that gorilla with the ten-pound sack thus siring you had she not been…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Another creative conservative with mother jokes. Your distasteful sexual references and willingness to sleep with a ‘boyfriend’ in exchange for rent in ‘upscale’ NJ seems indicative of a troubled past. As I indicated before, sparring with the disadvantaged is not sporting – so you’ll see no more from me directed to you.
I’d get tested and get to the bottom of things though.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 2:39 PM
You’re awful certain about your facts despite your case being mostly “assumptions” about the degree of lying. Your data is unreliable and best and corrupt at worst.
ladyingray on April 2, 2009 at 2:39 PM
So if we all piss you off one by one, will you just go the f@ck away?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:41 PM
You are so right. My Nephew is being deployed to Afghanistan as well. Am very proud of him. All our Military deserves respect. Then the spineless ones that couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, trashes them. I know one thing karma answers to those vile creatures. When the time comes and I am sure it will. There will be no mercy for the spineless creatures that can’t or won’t fight their own battles. I really admire your style. :)
sheebe on April 2, 2009 at 2:42 PM
yeah, yeah…get that nosebleed taken care of? Well, I got news for ya–I see ya spewin your stupid quips and inane one-liners at the HA community I’m gonna call you out again and again so get used to me…and my life is great, maricon, couldn’t ask for a better one…now must go pick up my son at school…later…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Nice shifting of the goalposts there chief. I’m challenging your claim, not your strawman.
Sorry, I don’t jump at your command. Your statement that most comments have been saying this is much ado about nothing is false, and skimming just the comments on the first page makes that obvious. I’ll leave it up to you to do a full survey if the sample is not enough. Of course, I’m sure you aren’t interested in doing research on how wrong you are.
maleman on April 2, 2009 at 2:46 PM
*Groan* Think about the example that you’re setting for him.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Ah, now I know who you are. So tell us, Altan, how did you like being banned from Power Line?
(blue laughter)
Del Dolemonte on April 2, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Your comments don’t mean anything to me anymore. You’re still invited to come with us though. The first plane leaves tonight.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Del Dolemonte on April 2, 2009 at 2:47 PM
What was this vile individual banned at Power Line for?
kingsjester on April 2, 2009 at 2:51 PM
You’re the one that made the claim. You should do the work.
Considering there are 5 pages of comments, that idiotic staement you made kind of speaks for itself.
I invite you to prove how wrong I am.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM
If your conduct here is a reflection of what you call class, the word does not mean what you think it means.
TheUnrepentantGeek on April 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM
And don’t call me Chief unless you capitalize it.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Hawkdriver,
My respects to you and know that for every F****** liberal here “pissing all over” what you are doing here, there is a bunch of us praying for you so you can accomplish your mission safely. GODSPEED my friend.
TitleofLiberty on April 2, 2009 at 2:59 PM
The hang-up with status,respect and feeling important goes hand-in-hand with your irrational anger.
You need to check your sh@t.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Translation: Chica got my goat and I can’t deal (she takes too much energy)..reserve sparring for timid HA’s who will be dazzle-razzled by my condescending quips….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:01 PM
To be fair, the trolls are pissing on me here for being a Conservative, not because of being in the military. Since their guy is in power, I’m not a criminal anymore. Well, at least not until obama let’s a world court take a whack at me.
But I appreciate your sentiment. It’s folks like you we do it for.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:03 PM
He’ll be a fine, strong Republican man..don’t you worry…nothing but great schools and the best care in his present and future….now enough there with my boy, Mama bear claw your eyes out and make u eat ‘em…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:04 PM
Are you stupid? I thought you were correcting everyones comments. If you address me as Chief, it’s capitalized. It’s a tile.
If I addressed your as ms asswipe, you’d correct it and repost as Ms. Asswipe. Right?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Are you stupid? I thought you were correcting everyones comments. If you address me as Chief, it’s capitalized. It’s a tile.
If I addressed your as ms a$swipe, you’d correct it and repost as Ms. A$swipe. Right?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:05 PM
title
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:06 PM
“READ what I said. MO should treat her as a common citizen of the queen,s age.
With respect just like you’d treat your grandmother.
No more and certainly no less.”
Certainly not, the Queen is our head of state, she represents us, the British people. The way Obama represents you, the American people. How would you like it if I walked up and disrespected Obama? You may not like him, but he’s your pres.
And no, Michelle is not Elizabeth’s equal. Obama is. Michelle is just his wife (the same as Philip is just the queen’s husband).
The point of not pawing people in the public eye is the fact that they meet hundreds of people a day sometimes, you imagine how awful it would be if they all felt you up?
Frankly, if I were the Queen I’d have a no touching rule too.
Hope on April 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM
I believe it’s ‘lets’ not ‘let’s’. The apostrophe indicates the possessive tone.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Are you stupid? I thought you were correcting everyones comments. If you address me as Chief, it’s capitalized. It’s a title.
If I addressed you as ms a$swipe, you’d correct it and repost as Ms. A$swipe. Right?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Better Crappy?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Come back when you’re sure. And it would be a possessive tense. Is this fun?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:11 PM
I can’t get myself worked up over it either, but there is just no excuse for this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1166336/First-Ladys-fashion-sense-falters-Michelle-Obama-Sarah-Brown-meet-day-G20-summit.html
jewells45 on April 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Capitulus is a classic case of a guy whose wife cuts it off when he gets home and then gives it back in the morning with his lunchbox. Clearly the reason he is taking out all his unreleased anger out at people on this site. Too much of a puss to battle big mama! Way too obvious.
sherry on April 2, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Afternoon internet privileges @ Bellevue In-Patient Community Mental Health Services have come to an end…LoL!!
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Why not spend some time with your child instead of playing on message boards?
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:31 PM
So so respectable to the children of Conservatives now. Go back to making fun of them living in trailers again. I mean, that’s how you really feel, right?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Soccer practice with dad, stupid…you would take that extra cheap shot, loser….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:36 PM
I’m gonna have to phone Nurse Ratched and let her know gym socks snuck back into the rec computer room….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:37 PM
The post has one of the best Chewbacca pics yet!!!
DamnYankee on April 2, 2009 at 3:37 PM
And that’s the glammed-up version…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:39 PM
She’s just jealous that there isn’t a big enough instrument to provide the requisite injection to net her some offspring. Lots of rolls to get past there.
Even bet she’s the woman at the mall that makes a big fuss about your kid, gives you that creepy feeling and then follows you through JC Penny and into the parking lot until you get into your car.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:42 PM
They might have known the protocol had they spent a little less time basking in their own celebrity. Morons.
Viper1 on April 2, 2009 at 3:43 PM
What’s with all the thinly-veiled racism? You’re just itching to be able to
call her asay or write “baboon nigger”, aren’t you?You aint above it all.
DamnYankee on April 2, 2009 at 3:46 PM
Dad, boyfriend etc. No wonder this country is so screwed up.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:47 PM
You should log off too. Do you really want to spend your last day before having to go to work playing on a message board?
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM
What the hell are you talking about?
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Dad’s still there for Chica’s kid.
Your president’s father didn’t even stick around and look at him. He grew up to be an important dictator.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:51 PM
I really wish you’d pack up your childish nonsense and go away.
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Motown comes to Buckingham Palace. Press fevah at the Bee Bee Cee whilst the rest of the UK cringes with toes curled in anticipation of the next faux pas…yuk!
Jabba The Cat on April 2, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Wh
Trailer folk have their own language. Their family trees are different too.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 3:53 PM
LoL!! That’s a woman or just a guess? I’ve been fightin’ it like it’s a man all this time. I get a stupid, smart-mouth, acne-faced unpopular college kid–you get the 300-pound version of Rosie o’Donnell? What gives? LoL?
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM
I really have no use for your obnoxious drivel either.
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM
Maybe you’re confused. The first plane leaves tonight with our Advanced Party. I have 2-4 weeks before I’m leaving.
But it’s okay. I’m waiting for the rain to let up so I can preflight. Everything else is done. I have plenty of time.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM
So I don’t want to get married to the child’s father–what’s the big freakin’ deal? Never claimed to be a high-brow conservative. Free as a bird, baby…my life’s motto…
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM
I really don’t know. Someone else who e-mails me thinks it’s a woman. A BIG woman. I could be wrong. SWMBOed was reading over my shoulder one night and she thought it was a woman too.
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Hawkdriver, you truly have poor logic skills.
Oh well, I’ll just go back to being a fat lazy liberal. It must really burn you up to know that guys like me get to sit back, relax, and feel sorry for you and your lack of reason.
I’d taunt you about being comfy at home with my family and friends while you prepare to go across the world to fight for a lost cause, but why hurt your feelings? Deep down it must already be frustrating enough.
maleman on April 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Whatever he/she/it is, he/she/it is a vile, miserable creature who can not offer anything constructive to a site.
kingsjester on April 2, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Hmmm…so now instead of fantasizing about my 6 foot 4 beau smashin’ the acne-face in, I can actually fantasize instead about putting my brown-belt kicks to use on some Liberal chick’s lard ass? Sweeeeet!!
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Oh God, it gets worse.
Ex-HusbandBaby Daddy and now some guy who comes over to bang you when he likes because he pays your rent. It’s worse than the Bristol and Levi show.capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Speak for yourself……..
……… never think you can speak for me.
I call Lt. Worf, “Lt. Worf” because after eight years of every vile, putrid, condescending, racist, traitorous, evil, insensitive, immature, sophomoric, hate filled, propaganda and lie that President Bush, his family, and his Administration had to put up with like this………
………. then I think the left deserves a little pay back.
Especially when Mr. Teleprompter can’t utter a sensible sentence………
…… without a teleprompter.
Besides, if you followed Star Trek at all and have any sense of an imagination…….
…….. you probably would think it is as funny as I!
Seven Percent Solution on April 2, 2009 at 4:02 PM
maleman on April 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM
You ignorant Liberal. The only reason you are able to “be comfy at home” is because our brave fighting men and women like hawkdriver protecting your useless rear end. After Obama’s sniveling performance at the G20, they are the only thing that stands between us and the enemy.
kingsjester on April 2, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Yup, check to Hawk for nailin’ the Lib Fat chick–LoL! Easy there, you’ll blow a gasket or something…..
Got it all wrong, Goodyear blimp…keep tryin to pry more personal info out of me, not workin’…Baby Daddy and Baby Mamma doin’ real good for themselves and lil pee-wee.
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 4:05 PM
I don’t want to know – seriously. If I wanted to hear about trash I’d put on Jerry Springer. Just remember that there’s no common law marriage in NJ. You’re disposable.
capitulus on April 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Damn, that’s foul.
Hawk, you got my love, respect, support and well-wishes…truth is, you’re are probably leading three times the life and seeing much more of the world than this jack-off is….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM
I think the ban hammer needs to be dropped on capitulus now….is AP watching?
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 4:11 PM
Ow, feelings officially hurt. Darn.
Do you really think after the last eight years of being spit on by you guys, that your little rant there means anything. I’ve dealt with the best you have to offer in the Atlanta Airport and a Recruiting Station in my hometown of Williamsport, PA.; yelling at me close enough to smell their foul breath. They did it in person though while I was in uniform. Quite the brave soul doing it from behind your keyboard there though, Slappy.
You know what though? I’d rather live in that dirty tent they’re pitching for us as we speak, knowing that regardless of what you think, I’m keeping my family safe back here in their homes. And I would rather die in a twisted, smoking pile of aluminum on a mountainside in the Helman Province, rather than live the entire empty, petty pathetic life you live as a liberal. You’ll die day by day and an inch at a time as your freedoms are slowly taken away from you. My last thought would be how thankful I am that I’m not you.
Questions?
hawkdriver on April 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM
A round of applause for your responses to that piece of garbage.
sherry on April 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM
You’re a jealous angry, spiteful person bereft of love and touch and know it. I’ve got ten times what you have from money on down to love–call your bluff on it….
RepubChica on April 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Oof. Very oof.
LimeyGeek on April 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Wow, hawk.
Stay safe, bud. From one American to another, thank you for all that you do. I can sleep at night knowing that you are out there protecting me and my family from the scum of the earth. Thank you. Thank you for the freedom we share. Your sacrifice and the sacrifices of those before you have paved the way of this nation. It is the soldier that secures our freedoms. It is the soldier, a noble warrior, that seeks to bring freedom to the oppressed and relief to the suffering.
I am humbled to call you brother.
Stay safe. God bless.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on April 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM
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