Obama’s not the only amateur, apparently

posted at 12:45 pm on March 28, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

When I started the Obamateurism of the Day, I didn’t expect it to turn into a franchise.  Demonstrating that Amateur Hour continues at the State Department, Hillary Clinton managed to display an amazing degree of ignorance while making a pilgrimage to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico yesterday afternoon.  While viewing the famous image of Mary as a native peasant that Mexicans believe was divinely created, Hillary asked — well, you have to read the story:

During her recent visit to Mexico, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made an unexpected stop at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe and left a bouquet of white flowers “on behalf of the American people,” after asking who painted the famous image.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was miraculously imprinted by Mary on the tilma, or cloak, of St. Juan Diego in 1531. The image has numerous unexplainable phenomena, such as the appearance on Mary’s eyes of those present in the room when the tilma was opened and the image’s lack of decay.

Mrs. Clinton was received on Thursday at 8:15 a.m. by the rector of the Basilica, Msgr. Diego Monroy.

Msgr. Monroy took Mrs. Clinton to the famous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which had been previously lowered from its usual altar for the occasion.

After observing it for a while, Mrs. Clinton asked “who painted it?” to which Msgr. Monroy responded “God!”

Who painted it? Didn’t anyone brief Hillary on the history of the Guadalupe apparition?  As it turns out, no one should have had to brief the Secretary of State.  She told the Monsignor that she had visited once before, thirty years ago. She must have thought it was just a good place to take tourist pictures.

The Anchoress notes:

Doh! Another State Department error! It’s a good thing we have a “smart” State Department, now, instead of the “dumb” one we had for the last 8 years!

Some “smart diplomacy,” huh?  First Hillary doesn’t understand multiparty democracy, then she fumbles a snarky “reset button” by mistranslating it and putting it in Latin rather than Cyrillic script.  She can’t even get names straight, let alone sound intelligent when visiting national shrines.  A few more of these and we may have a new feature here at Hot Air.

Update: I just noticed that SondraK sent me this to my Obamateurism folder earlier.  Be sure to read her thoughts.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5

How many times did you watch The Da Vinci Code?

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 6:34 PM

none. I don’t waste my time with such stupidity.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 6:47 PM

I think SouthWest Airline needs to make a series of “Wanna get away?” ads featuring members of the BHO administration.

jgapinoy on March 28, 2009 at 4:45 PM

I like the format, but I think NASA would be a more appropriate carrier…

Maquis on March 28, 2009 at 6:49 PM

Sad to see anti-Catholicism alive and well – even here.

I don’t ever remember seeing any Catholic poster attempting to trash any fellow Christian’s religious beliefs on this site.

Why non-Catholics believe it is acceptable to take their lame shots is a mystery to me – and it continues to divide and conquer us as Christians.

Guess Obama might be right after all about “bitter clingers”, because he sure benefits from our disunity.

As for “Catholics” or any “Christians” who voted for Obama,
they will have to take that up on Judgement Day.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 6:55 PM

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 6:55 PM

so questioning catholic doctrine is anti-catholocism..nice…what about when the pope says protestants aren’t part of the church? what would you call that??

The Vatican on July 10 reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, calling other Christian churches defective and saying Protestant denominations are not even churches “in the proper sense.”

The statement, which was “ratified and confirmed” by Pope Benedict XVI and published with his approval, reiterates some of the most controversial ideas in a 2000 Vatican declaration published under Benedict’s authority when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 6:55 PM

I think it’s a couple of things…and I preface this by saying I’m not Catholic, but a good friend of mine is. I used to work long hours with him and a neo-Calvinist. You know it’s a serious conversation when you’re going back to the Greek and Hebrew to make a point. ;)

1. People don’t understand the idea of praying with saints as opposed to praying to saints. And I’ll add Mary to that as well. It’s more like praying with a friend than idolizing someone mortal, if I understand it right. Feel free to correct me if that’s incorrect…I don’t want to misrepresent.

2. Protestants in general don’t have relics in the same way that Catholics do. There are more differences, but that applies most to this discussion I think.

Of course the perspective offered by my friend is that of someone who considers the Pope infallible and goes to Mass every chance he gets. Definitely not of the co-redemptor school of thought insofar as Mary is concerned, though. He’s a little more old school I guess.

I miss the days when I could discuss faiths and politics without anyone getting offended or angry.

Asher on March 28, 2009 at 7:15 PM

right4life…. Protestants aren’t part of the Church( defined as Roman Catholic), but nowhere are Protestants condemned in the Catholic faith… they are seen as Christians as much as we Catholics are… you’re trying to pick a fight you will lose.

MNDavenotPC on March 28, 2009 at 7:17 PM

so why do you think asking mary to interecede will help??? hmmmm??

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 6:44 PM

You would need to agree that God shared His son Jesus with us. You would need to agree to the existence of a Trinity consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You would need to agree that we realize the Trinity through Jesus’ birth from the Virgin Mother Mary.

Without Mary, the connection is broken.

If faith encourages us who are desirous of spending eternity in Heaven, and we try our best to be good enough to earn a spot, we do so by being pure.

Mary was selected by the Holy Spirit as the mother of God for her purity.

It should be self-evident that the path to the Kingdom of God is through Mary as Mary is the utmost of pureness. With that, it should be self-evident that Mary is the Mother of all who wish to spend eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven. And, we are all (you, me, getalife, and everyone else) brothers and sisters in a worldly kinship.

Asking Mary’s Intercession seems like a fairly good idea and not like slipping a $20, but like a good way to clean up before you go to the top to ask forgiveness for what you neglected to ask permission for.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 7:18 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 6:16 PM

off topic too but Matthew, 2:20…

Behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 19:25…

Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

That’s all my scripture reading for today.

atemely on March 28, 2009 at 7:21 PM

what about when the pope says protestants aren’t part of the church? what would you call that??

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

Enlighten me, oh purveyer of scripture! How many churches did Jesus create? And how many churches does the Catholic Church believe there are? Taking those two numbers and subtracting one from the other, the absolute value of the delta is the amount of error the Catholic Church has on this element of Christian theology.

I’ll go say a few Hail Mary’s for you, OK?

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 7:22 PM

You would need to agree that God shared His son Jesus with us. You would need to agree to the existence of a Trinity consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You would need to agree that we realize the Trinity through Jesus’ birth from the Virgin Mother Mary.

Without Mary, the connection is broken.

you know if it wasn’t mary, it could have been someone else…she wasn’t chosen because of some special merit or power she had.

Mary was selected by the Holy Spirit as the mother of God for her purity.

really? where is that in the bible? didn’t mary say she needed a savior? if she was so pure, she wouldn’t have needed one.

It should be self-evident that the path to the Kingdom of God is through Mary as Mary is the utmost of pureness.

you see now you cross the line into blasphemy. Jesus is the way the truth and the life…no one comes to the Father but by Him….guess He just forgot to mention mary huh? please.

If faith encourages us who are desirous of spending eternity in Heaven, and we try our best to be good enough to earn a spot, we do so by being pure.

whatever you’re preaching, it ain’t christianity…in christianity you cannot ‘earn’ a spot in heaven…Jesus earned it for us…and He is the ONLY ONE who could..

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 7:22 PM

then tell me why a good ‘christian’ like you wants to see the jews slaughtered? hmmm?? remember Jesus was a jew.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:26 PM

That’s all my scripture reading for today.

atemely on March 28, 2009 at 7:21 PM

interesting that Jesus called her ‘woman’ and not mother isn’t it??

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:27 PM

they are seen as Christians as much as we Catholics are… you’re trying to pick a fight you will lose.

MNDavenotPC on March 28, 2009 at 7:17 PM

doesn’t sound like it….and don’t bet on me losing… ;-)

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:28 PM

And the Liberal beat goes on,and on….

the beat goes on and on….
——————————————
Remember,the Liberal are in damage control,after all,the Left kept harping,montra,never ending talking points,that
Bush has damaged America’s image!

And when they get in POWER,the’ll straighten it all out!

But,

so far,in less than 70 or so days,they’ve been on a h#ll
of a roll pissing off countries left,right and centre!

Can’t wait for the next glorious royal screw-up!!

canopfor on March 28, 2009 at 7:32 PM

right4life…. Protestants aren’t part of the Church( defined as Roman Catholic), but nowhere are Protestants condemned in the Catholic faith… they are seen as Christians as much as we Catholics are… you’re trying to pick a fight you will lose.

MNDavenotPC on March 28, 2009 at 7:17 PM

Oh please! They went to war over this thing in the 15th century. That’s what happens when church and state are combined which is what the catholic church wants to happen.

RealDemocrat on March 28, 2009 at 7:34 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

No, not questioning Catholic doctrine, as in sincere and humble inquiry. What you call “questioning” is really a rude violation of the core beliefs of another human being.
You don’t even respect the faith enough to capitalize the word “Catholic” when you write it. (FYI, the word Catholic means “universal” and was first used to describe the Christian church about 100 years after His Resurrection.)

Also, since the time of Martin Luther, (an ex Augustinian priest), there are now some 26,000 Protestant sects. None of them agreeing with the other on many facets of the faith. Perhaps you should spend some time questioning that can of worms.

I stand by my statements. We could go on ad nauseum – as in now you come up with a statement(you don’t say who wrote it and who published it)which seems to be written in order to inflame prejudices and obscure true understanding.

It would seem that the author is implying that the Church is attempting to insult other faiths. This is America, and we still have Freedom of Speech, so the author can deceive and continue to divide and conquer, and you are free to agree. But I am free to tell you that you and your author are completely and sadly mistaken.

If you or anyone else would like to know what the Catholic Church teaches about herself and others, then I suggest you get it firsthand. Go to http://www.vatican.va There you will find
two thousand years of Catholic teaching to learn and read for yourself.

I have always avoided the anti-Catholic fighting that I have seen on this site, but today I guess it’s my time to defend my Blessed Mother and my Lord. But to answer every crack that is or will be written on this thread – no, no, no.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 7:36 PM

Most heathen religions always have their own “Queen of Heaven”. I can’t think of one heathen religion that doesn’t.

RealDemocrat on March 28, 2009 at 7:39 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:27 PM

Read Genesis 3:15
Are you really trying to say Jesus would disrespect His own Mother?
You sadly have no true understanding of Catholicism.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 7:40 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM

Oh my. This is good stuff:

you know if it wasn’t mary, it could have been someone else…she wasn’t chosen because of some special merit or power she had.

That indeed does correct what I wrote, but I only wrote what I read here (verse 28-38.) I got caught up in that handmaid of the Lord stuff.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 7:41 PM

No, not questioning Catholic doctrine, as in sincere and humble inquiry. What you call “questioning” is really a rude violation of the core beliefs of another human being.
You don’t even respect the faith enough to capitalize the word “Catholic” when you write it. (FYI, the word Catholic means “universal” and was first used to describe the Christian church about 100 years after His Resurrection.)

well I find the attitude towards protestants by catholics rude and insulting…and many of your beliefs are heretical. as witnessed by the statements of one of your brethren above.

I stand by my statements. We could go on ad nauseum – as in now you come up with a statement(you don’t say who wrote it and who published it)which seems to be written in order to inflame prejudices and obscure true understanding.

uh the Pope said that…you want a reference…

link

I find that offensive.

But I am free to tell you that you and your author are completely and sadly mistaken.

the author is the POPE…get a clue…

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy – Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

same story different source..

link

do you really know what your church teaches?

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:44 PM

Sorry, but as much as I despise this whole administration, this is not a big deal in the scheme of things.

They are selling out OUR freedom and destroying our Constitution, and a minor gaffe gets this much attention????

It is not as if Hillary was herself a Mexican Catholic…. (or even an actual believer in God) and the place apparently on her official itinerary, so she wouldn’t have been briefed on it.

I could have easily made the same mistake, despite being raised a Catholic in (New) MEXICO and having spent a goodly amount of time in (Old) Mexico. I’ll bet that 75% of you guys could have made the same mistake as well.

LegendHasIt on March 28, 2009 at 7:45 PM

Are you really trying to say Jesus would disrespect His own Mother?
You sadly have no true understanding of Catholicism.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 7:40 PM

do you consider calling your mother ‘woman’ disrespectful?

would you call your mom that??

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:45 PM

Blessed Mother and my Lord. But to answer every crack that is or will be written on this thread – no, no, no.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 7:36 PM

interesting to see that you put your ‘blessed mother’ before your Lord…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:47 PM

We can’t have nice things….

Asher on March 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:25 PM

Mary is the immaculate conception-she was born without sin, and all other churches are considered “daughter churches” by the pope.
Hope it helps.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM

Protestants in general don’t have relics in the same way that Catholics do. There are more differences, but that applies most to this discussion I think.

Asher on March 28, 2009 at 7:15 PM

I’m a Catholic and I don’t have a relic either. Somehow I now feel incomplete.

But if I did have a relic, it would certainly be a prized possession. I once visited the Department of Classics and Anthropology at Loyola Marymount in Los Angeles. I was given a tour of the relics the department had collected over the years, and amongst them were floor tiles purportedly taken from the headquarters of Legio X Fretensis in Jerusalem. That they had some relationship to the legion was certain — there was an owners’ impression on the bottom of one of the tiles, and it was, indeed Legio X. The person showing me the tiles indicated that they had come from the main passageway into the headquarters, and “Jesus himself may well have tread upon this very tile at the time of his crucifixion!” [Fretensis was the legion garrisoned in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus and for a long period thereafter.]

I can understand why a relic would have importance — it brings us closer to celebrated events. I certainly felt a bit of awe handling a tile which, if Jesus didn’t tread upon it, was part of a building occupied by Jesus near the end of his life.

I don’t think Protestants are immune from this sort of longing for connection to central events in Christianity.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 7:56 PM

Hey right4life. You’re in the thick of it. And I know you can hold your own, but here are a few helps. (I give these not to put down Catholics — I have dear relatives that are born again Catholics and I respect their decision to stay in the church. However, I believe their Maryology is unScriptual.) Jesus respected but did not venerate his mother:

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he [Jesus] said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the breasts which thou didst suck.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Now if Jesus wanted us to venerate Mary, He might have answered differently. And again:

Matthew 12:47 And one said to him [Jesus], See, your mother and your brothers are outside, desiring to have talk with you.
48 But he in answer said to him who gave the news, Who is my mother and who are my brothers?
49 And he put out his hand to his disciples and said, See, my mother and my brothers!

And BTW, Jesus had half brothers. The above Scripture shows this using the greek word transliterated ‘adelphoi’. This does not mean cousins anywhere else in the NT – it either means physical brother or spiritual brother. (And at the the time his brothers were not believers ie, spiritual brothers.)

And you are correct you cannot earn your way to heaven:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Finally we might note that Catholics have been purifying Mary as a process for centuries. It wasn’t until 1955 that they proclaimed it as official that she ascended to heaven. (Of course there is no Scriptural basis for that.)

I believe Mary was/is a saint like every true believer in Christ is a saint. It is Christ that justifies us and then sanctifies us (sets us apart – for that’s what the word saint means). If it were based on our own performance, there would be no one saved. It is the blood of Christ which cleanses us from sin.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Having stated these things, I should note that Unscriptural views of Mary might not be nearly as important as knowing that it is through Jesus alone that we are saved — all we have to do is believe in Him, not just head knowledge but by opening our lives to Him and allow Him to change us. That is, have a personal relationship with Him.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 7:58 PM

Mary is the immaculate conception-she was born without sin, and all other churches are considered “daughter churches” by the pope.
Hope it helps.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM

really? go ahead and show me in the bible where it says that….you cannot.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:00 PM

Asher on March 28, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Yes, Asher, we ask the saints, and especially the Blessed Mother, Queen of Saints, to pray for us. Neither the saints nor Our Lady are divine, they too, are creatures as are we.
They have lived their lives and fought the good fight and are in the presence of Almighty God, where they can personally speak to Him about us.

Additionally, however, Blessed Mother has the singular privilege of having had the grace of Christ’s redemptive suffering and death applied to her at the moment of her conception. The Lord did not allow her to be tainted by orginal sin so that in time she could be the spotless Tabernacle of the Most High Lord and then give birth to Him and raise Him with St. Joseph.

Honoring the Blessed Mother and the saints in no way diminishes the absoulute ADORATION due the the Holy Trinity. Honoring the Blessed Mother and the saints gives glory to the Holy Trintiy, who CREATED them.

By honoring them and asking them to pray for us to God, we are saying, “Thank you, Lord, for creating fellow creatures who reflect YOUR glory, YOUR will and the truth that JESUS IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. Hopefully we can do the same with our lives.”

This is our Roman Catholic faith.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 8:01 PM

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 7:58 PM

I’m getting old, I can always use help..thanks…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:01 PM

Honoring the Blessed Mother and the saints in no way diminishes the absoulute ADORATION due the the Holy Trinity. Honoring the Blessed Mother and the saints gives glory to the Holy Trintiy, who CREATED them.

you know you only have so much time in this world…and any time you spend honoring them, as you say, takes away time from honoring Jesus…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:02 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:45 PM

You know, one of my little boys use to call me Lady and one of my older sons calls me Woman, both meant in the greatest of affection.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:04 PM

do you really know what your church teaches?

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 7:44 PM

Yes.

Indeed.

Now, the bigger question for you, right4life, is do you know what your church teaches, and can you post the same sorts of references that I have posted from the Catholic Church, for our increased understanding of your version of the True Faith?

At the present time, all you seem to have for theology is opposition.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:07 PM

You know, one of my little boys use to call me Lady and one of my older sons calls me Woman, both meant in the greatest of affection.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:04 PM

thats nice…but what if your son said this about you?

Matthew 12:

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”[g]
48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:08 PM

Are you really trying to say Jesus would disrespect His own Mother?

You sadly have no true understanding of Catholicism.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 7:40 PM

I would go further. right4life has no understanding of Jesus.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

do you know what your church teaches, and can you post the same sorts of references that I have posted from the Catholic Church, for our increased understanding of your version of the True Faith?

At the present time, all you seem to have for theology is opposition.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:07 PM

I’ve been posting from the BIBLE..you know its kinda important to christians…

although to hate-filled anti-semites like you, I’m sure its just more zionist propoganda…

oh yeah Mary was a jew…so was Peter, and Paul…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

I would go further. right4life has no understanding of Jesus.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

this from a piece of anti-semitic trash who hates jews..JESUS WAS A JEW…get a clue.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:10 PM

48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:08 PM

I see. Jesus’ mother and brothers weren’t Christian, and his statement was exclusionary rather than of the nature of a parable.

Interesting.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:10 PM

I see. Jesus’ mother and brothers weren’t Christian, and his statement was exclusionary rather than of the nature of a parable.

Interesting.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:10 PM

newsflash: there were NO CHRISTIANS when Jesus said that…duhhhhhhh

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:11 PM

this from a piece of anti-semitic trash who hates jews..JESUS WAS A JEW…get a clue.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:10 PM

I knew there was a reason why I live debating you. You go ad-hominem so easily….

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:12 PM

newsflash: there were NO CHRISTIANS when Jesus said that…duhhhhhhh

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:11 PM

Really?

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

I knew there was a reason why I live debating you. You go ad-hominem so easily….

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:12 PM

truth hurts sonny…its what you are. and then you say you’re a ‘christian’ you’re an embarressment

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

115:1 Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!

2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.

4 Their idols are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
5 They have mouths, but do not speak;
eyes, but do not see.
6 They have ears, but do not hear;
noses, but do not smell.
7 They have hands, but do not feel;
feet, but do not walk;
and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8 Those who make them become like them;
so do all who trust in them.

RealDemocrat on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:08 PM

48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

Jesus was instructing the people, basically do the will of my Father and you too are my family.
Why do you have to look at this as slight to his Mother, stop looking for ways to justify your animus towards the Mother of Jesus. You seem to allude that Jesus would break the 4th Commandment, Honor Your Mother and Father.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at

When speaking to Mary before she accepted God’s task–The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28)

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:14 PM

I have posted from the Catholic Church,
unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:07 PM

I’ve been posting from the BIBLE..you know its kinda important to christians…
right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

Seems to me this is the essence of the disagreement. Catholics believe that the Bible is just one of the authorites of their faith. The other is papal decrees and the church tradition.
Protestants (at least evangelicals)in general only hold to Scripture.
So if we have differing authorities we will have differing views on some points.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Why do you have to look at this as slight to his Mother, stop looking for ways to justify your animus towards the Mother of Jesus. You seem to allude that Jesus would break the 4th Commandment, Honor Your Mother and Father.

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

I don’t look at is a ‘slight’ per se…but there is nothing in scripture that justifies elvating mary to any special position. period.

obviously Jesus, who wrote the commandments, never broke any…please.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Certainly though there is a lot of evidence supporting her point that American drug consumption funds a variety of gangs, some of which are in Mexico.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 5:32 PM

Of course, this is true.

This has been true for 100 years, but the kind of violence we are seeing on the border is unprecedented.

The drug demand has always been there.

The ruse is how this “truth” is being tied to the cause of this new violence (our fault), coupled with her blaming America for the supply of arms to the gangs.

She blames the demand (for drugs) on us; she blames the supply (of weapons) on us.

But that’s not where it stops.

She suggests that somehow there is a domestic policy agenda that needs to be addressed regarding the demand for drugs in this country. Yeah, riiighhhht, as if (of course, she said nothing about what those policies would be)….

But in this hint at domestic policy, suddenly the real issue is bringing back the “assault” weapons ban. All of a sudden we’re talking about the second amendment as the fundamental problem with the border.

And it doesn’t stop there!

The type of weaponry that these gangs are using has nothing to do with the availability of firearms in the US. The firepower these gangs are using cannot be purchased in your local gun store. It is an outright lie.

But they love using that term “assault” weapon, cause it sounds reeeeeeaaaal scary, and it fools the gun-ignorant listener into actually believing that if we re-institute the “assault” weapons ban, we will have won a great victory over those evil drug gangs.

What a crock.

The SOS is now trying to undermine (and in my opinion, at the behest of the President) the second amendment. That is a disgrace to the office. Once again, certain international interests are making great strides at diminishing the power of freedom and American sovereignty, and they have a friend at State.

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 8:16 PM

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

very true my friend…(notice not ‘my friends’ ;-) (mccain) )

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:16 PM

newsflash: there were NO CHRISTIANS when Jesus said that…duhhhhhhh

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:11 PM

Hokayyyyy….

So, assuming you are absolutely correct in this matter, then the disciples weren’t Christians either. When does Christianity start? These people have the Old Testament — and they are living the New Testament. And they aren’t Christians?

Wow. Peter not yet a Christian, although he follows Christ. Mind-blowing.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:19 PM

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Agreed. But isnt it terrific that we can have discussions even if we disagree.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:19 PM

I’ve been posting from the BIBLE..you know its kinda important to christians…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

Well, does it come as a surprise to you that the Bible was put together in the fourth century by the Catholic church?
It just didn’t fall out of the sky. Some organization in authority had to say, “these books are true and have been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. These books will comprise the Holy Scriptures and no one can add to them or take away from them.” Guess who said that? Right again, the Catholic church.

I don’t want to keep going, but you need to know that the Church which put the Holy Scriptures together also warned against and does not approve of personal interpretations such as yours which would lead one to think that our Lord disrespected His Mother in any way, let alone publicly as you suggest. Would Jesus Christ break His own commandment regarding honoring father and mother? Do you see how your own prejudice against the Blessed Mother leads to such impossible actions by our Lord Himself?

Please get book(s) by Scott and Kimberly Hahn, two very ex anti-catholics and Scripture scholars. I really think if you read with an open mind you will see how expansive God really is and that to honor his saints is to multiply love for HIM – CREATOR OF ALL THING SEEN AND UNSEEN.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 8:20 PM

truth hurts sonny…its what you are. and then you say you’re a ‘christian’ you’re an embarressment

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I hadn’t realized that you were perfect too…

This is going to be amusing.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:21 PM

When does Christianity start? These people have the Old Testament — and they are living the New Testament. And they aren’t Christians?

Wow. Peter not yet a Christian, although he follows Christ. Mind-blowing.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:19 PM

Christianity didn’t start until after the resurrection…get a clue…you know when the Holy Spirit was sent….

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I hadn’t realized that you were perfect too…

This is going to be amusing.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:21 PM

I’d throw a stone at hitler…and those who think like he did…sure.

wouldn’t you??

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:23 PM

unclesmrgol

It is true that Christianity didnt exist in Jesus life. Christianity did not begin for at least 40 years after Christ’s death. Have you ever heard of the ebionites? Just for the discussion they were a sect of Jews that did not follow Judaism but rather were the beginnings of a new/branching religion,Jesus is reputed to have belonged to this group.The term Christians was first used derogatorily by the Romans as in “throw those Christ followers to the lions”.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:24 PM

Seems to me this is the essence of the disagreement. Catholics believe that the Bible is just one of the authorites of their faith. The other is papal decrees and the church tradition.
Protestants (at least evangelicals)in general only hold to Scripture.
So if we have differing authorities we will have differing views on some points.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

Yes, Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church leaders.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 8:26 PM

Catholic church?
It just didn’t fall out of the sky. Some organization in authority had to say, “these books are true and have been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. These books will comprise the Holy Scriptures and no one can add to them or take away from them.” Guess who said that? Right again, the Catholic church.

the scripture was evident to christians…I have heard that you could recreate the NT from the early church father’s writings…

please.

of personal interpretations such as yours which would lead one to think that our Lord disrespected His Mother in any way

first of all everyone has to interpret what the bible means for themselves…just as salvation is an individual experience…I never said the Lord disrespected His mother…I am pointing out that the ‘veneration’ ie WORSHIP of mary is unbiblical and heretical.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:26 PM

When speaking to Mary before she accepted God’s task–The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28)

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:14 PM

very true…and what is grace??? UNMERITED favor…

if she was sinless, as you say, she would not need grace..

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM

Just to recap…

The topic is Hillary asking “who painted Our Lady of Guadalupe.”

Some posters question the relevance of Our Lady of Guadalupe while others have positive and negative comments about Hillary.

Some posters have attempted to explain why Our Lady of Guadalupe has relevance (the raison d’être for the Basilica.)

Some (possibly Protestant) posters took the explanation of Our Lady of Guadalupe as an attack on their (Protestant) faith.

Some posters decided to trash Catholics.

Some Catholic posters defended the ways of Catholicism.

All the while, some posters are dead on topic.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 8:29 PM

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 8:20 PM

My understanding is that the Canon was largely formed much earlier than the 4th Century. All the books were written by the late 1st Century and most Christians knew which were Canon and which were not in the 2nd Century. It was only made final in the fourth. And incidentally, Mary was not thought of as venerated until the times of the creeds. When they were discussing Christology and determined that Christ was fully God and fully man, then one bishop declared that Mary was the mother of God. That’s when the veneration started and has continued to grow through to the 1955 Roman church edict that Mary ascended to Heaven.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:30 PM

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 8:29 PM

you know I would really like you to explain your statement:

If faith encourages us who are desirous of spending eternity in Heaven, and we try our best to be good enough to earn a spot, we do so by being pure.

and how you think this jives with christianity????

this is blatant heresy…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

I don’t look at is a ’slight’ per se…but there is nothing in scripture that justifies elvating mary to any special position. period.

obviously Jesus, who wrote the commandments, never broke any…please.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 PM

I’ve been posting from the BIBLE..you know its kinda important to christians…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

Thus endeth the Bible according to right4life.

And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee.

And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Oops, wrong Bible, right?

And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Oops, wrong Bible again. Sorry, right4life, I should be spitting upon the grave of blessed Mary as you do, but something in these words stops me…

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

LOL

Midas on March 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Sorry, getting back to topic. I agreed with Rush that Republicans should vote in open primaries for Hillary. But at the time I thought she would be the worst case scenario. Now we know better: While she may be incompetent, Obama is both incompetent and socialist.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Oops, wrong Bible again. Sorry, right4life, I should be spitting upon the grave of blessed Mary as you do, but something in these words stops me…

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

with your HATRED of the jews…you do.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM

The SOS is now trying to undermine (and in my opinion, at the behest of the President) the second amendment. That is a disgrace to the office. Once again, certain international interests are making great strides at diminishing the power of freedom and American sovereignty, and they have a friend at State.

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 8:16 PM

They’ll face Constitutional limitations in trying to restrict guns. It would be better to let California legalize some drugs and deprive the gangs of a revenue source.

Have the DEA focus more on the illegal gun traffic than on drug traffic.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Why non-Catholics believe it is acceptable to take their lame shots is a mystery to me – and it continues to divide and conquer us as Christians.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 6:55 PM

Your comments would have more relevance if you didn’t throw around the term “non-Catholics” as if what you are really saying is non-belivers.

Luther was right about the Catholic faith. Too many mythical trappings that have nothing to do with faith. too much reliance in intercession and having to talk to God through an ordained intermediary.

My real problems with Catholic dogma, however, are 1) that it glorifies the Christ on the cross as opposed to what came after. 2) It deifies Mary as the fourth member of the trinity even though she was among those who doubted Christ’s ministry. 3) Sainthood is a process not not self-evident.

highhopes on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

All the while, some posters are dead on topic.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 8:29 PM

There’s not much to this topic. What’s happening is that we’ve gone beyond the half hour this movie warranted, and that the end of four hours, we are throwing popcorn at each other.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM

How right you are to make those points, at this stage I will defer to those much better equipped to argue the points on merit,as I take my points on faith,which is to say I am not a Catholic,and I am not worthy of being called a Christian.

Having said that and set it aside– I think that Ms.Clinton should have been much better informed before visiting foreign dignitaries and that seems to be a running issue with this administration.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

oh and ah here from your bible…explain this…

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

if mary was sinless, why did she need grace? hmmmmm???

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

which is to say I am not a Catholic,and I am not worthy of being called a Christian.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

Anyone who Jesus died for is made worthy by what He did.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:35 PM

with your HATRED of the jews…you do.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM

Huh? I don’t hate the Jews. Whatever gave you that idea? Quote quotes, please.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:35 PM

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 8:30 PM

The cult of Mary that makes her the fourth member of the Trinity is part of what is wrong with the Catholic dogma. It’s not pervasive but it is out there as part of that particular faith.

highhopes on March 28, 2009 at 8:37 PM

The cult of Mary that makes her the fourth member of the Trinity is part of what is wrong with the Catholic dogma. It’s not pervasive but it is out there as part of that particular faith.

highhopes on March 28, 2009 at 8:37 PM

It has been very effective at growing the Church. Over the centuries many of the pagans converting to Catholicism were coming from spiritual systems that had a mother God.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Huh? I don’t hate the Jews. Whatever gave you that idea? Quote quotes, please.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:35 PM

people can check out this thread and decide for themselves…

link

and one quote from there…

You are a complete ass and a total anti Semite. Go to the Daily Kos and be gone.

Hilts on March 27, 2009 at 8:30 AM
You’re not the only one who thinks that.

Blake on March 27, 2009 at 9:43 AM

they were speaking to you there ‘unc’

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:42 PM

and how you think this jives with christianity????

this is blatant heresy…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

I can’t explain it to you in a way that jives with your views. You have to understand my impediment is your intolerance for another’s faith. You don’t want to know anything you refuse understand. Before you misinterpret that, I am not digging at you for your beliefs – I am cognizant of your stance. This is where I kick the dust off my feet and move along.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

if mary was sinless, why did she need grace? hmmmmm???

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

The Immaculate Conception: She was conceived without original sin. She was saved at her conception. Thus making her full of Grace, the words spoken by the angel

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM

It’s not trashing if you speak the truth.

This is our Roman Catholic faith.

tigerlily on March 28, 2009 at 8:01 PM

So you allow all Christians to come to your Catholic Communion table and partake?
Your church will not allow me to take the bread and wine of Holy Communion, that is reserved only for Catholics…you accept that?
But to get back to the story:

Leaving the basilica half an hour later, Mrs. Clinton told some of the Mexicans gathered outside to greet her, “you have a marvelous virgin!”

How many funny lines could a comic do on this one statement?…you could do a 5 minute monologue on this every night for a week.
She lives in New York, when was the last time she saw a virgin…?

right2bright on March 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Anyone who Jesus died for is made worthy by what He did.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:35 PM

Better re-think that one…he died for all of mankind, but not all of mankind is worthy…I think you meant to say anyone who accepts, or does not deny.

right2bright on March 28, 2009 at 8:47 PM

How right you are to make those points, at this stage I will defer to those much better equipped to argue the points on merit,as I take my points on faith,which is to say I am not a Catholic,and I am not worthy of being called a Christian.

canditaylor68 on March 28, 2009 at 8:34 PM

You defer to someone whom you think is “much better equipped”.

Indeed, that is why we have pastors and theology and all that, as well as specific prohibitions within the Bible against private interpretation of scripture.

The Church states that those who are separated from it run a severe risk of misinterpreting the Word of God — His intent and His meaning. By such misinterpretation, one risks error, and if the misinterpretation is wilful, sin.

It doesn’t state that they cannot be Christians — just that they are at severe risk of error or sin, by an incomplete or improper interpretation of Scripture.

So, how does the Church propose that one avoid both error and sin. The Bible gives us a clue — over and over, admonishment to seek the counsel of others who are more learned. In other words, you are doing by the seeking you mentioned what the Church demands you do.

Of course, the Church, in its own defense, thinks it’s the learned authority you should seek.

To the extent that other branches of Christianity differ from the Church, the Church views those differences to be error. Of course, the other branches view those differences to be error to — just a different type of error. It’s all “point of view”.

I would say that, if you are going to seek counsel, Mr. right4life isn’t the place. His knowledge of Holy Scripture seems woefully deficient, and he commits the error of thinking that Catholics cannot be Christians. In other words, if you have a pastor, go see him/her, and don’t waste time here.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:49 PM

As a former Protestant converted to Catholicism, I find this whole discussion unworthy of the God we all love.

On a different note, for you Catholics here who would like to tweet with other Catholics, go here:
http://www.tweetcatholic.com/

I’m RWSparkle

Rightwingsparkle on March 28, 2009 at 8:49 PM

I can’t explain it to you in a way that jives with your views. You have to understand my impediment is your intolerance for another’s faith. You don’t want to know anything you refuse understand. Before you misinterpret that, I am not digging at you for your beliefs – I am cognizant of your stance. This is where I kick the dust off my feet and move along.

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM

truth is, you’re heretical.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:51 PM

Better re-think that one…he died for all of mankind, but not all of mankind is worthy…I think you meant to say anyone who accepts, or does not deny.

right2bright on March 28, 2009 at 8:47 PM

semantics…now we can argue about whether He die for all, or just the ones who accept Him…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:52 PM

I would say that, if you are going to seek counsel, Mr. right4life isn’t the place. His knowledge of Holy Scripture seems woefully deficient, and he commits the error of thinking that Catholics cannot be Christians. In other words, if you have a pastor, go see him/her, and don’t waste time here.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:49 PM

at least I don’t lie about people, and hate the jews…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Where did this thread go?

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 8:53 PM

The Immaculate Conception: She was conceived without original sin. She was saved at her conception. Thus making her full of Grace, the words spoken by the angel

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM

if you’re conceived without sin, you do not need grace at all. the word is meaningless to you.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:54 PM

I understand why Hillary’s staff had no idea what the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe is all about.
I was a pilgrim on Valentine’s weekend, my first time, on my own, not part of a group. Stayed at a hotel in the business section of Mexico City. The hotel had no tourist brochure of any kind about Our Lady of Guadalupe, no tours or special arrangement for individual pilgrim/tourist.
Inside the Basilica, you will understand why. Everyday especially on Sunday was crowded. Most notable scene are families with children, infants, all age group and pregnant women. Spanish Mass celebrated every hour on the hour in front of the original picture of the Blessed Mother with pilgrims bearing gifts and flowers. (Same framed picture taken down so Hillary can look at eye level. She brought white flowers for the Blessed Mother from us, that’s a good thing) Everything in the Basilica and surroundings are in Spanish, even the souvenirs. Some groups, before their mass start, perform outside the square in front of the Basilica. Even if you don’t know the story of Holy Mary of Guadalupe and St. Juan Diego, you’ll understand why Our Lady of Guadalupe is the patroness of the pro-life movement. Many fathers & mothers holding babies walk on their knees from the square of the Basilica to the altar. I’ve been to Lourdes & Fatima several times, Holy Mary of Guadalupe is different and quite foreign to Americans.

atemely on March 28, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Most heathen religions always have their own “Queen of Heaven”. I can’t think of one heathen religion that doesn’t.

RealDemocrat on March 28, 2009 at 7:39 PM

Islam?
Or does that not count?

Count to 10 on March 28, 2009 at 8:55 PM

they were speaking to you there ‘unc’

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:42 PM

I know they were speaking to me. Of course, they weren’t right, but they did speak to me. As you are not right now, and you are also speaking to me.

I have specific dislikes about Israeli foreign policy, and I’ve expressed some of those in the comments to that post. That doesn’t mean that I dislike Jews, or even that I dislike Israel. Actually, disliking either would be quite a schizo thing for me to do, given what I do for a living.

But I can and will voice my dislike for aspects of Israeli domestic and foreign policy, just as I’ve voiced my dislike for various aspects of American domestic and foreign policy.

So, for everyone else, please go read Mr. right4life’s link and see what I’ve really said, and the calmness with which I said it even in the face of considerable vitriol.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 8:56 PM

I know they were speaking to me. Of course, they weren’t right, but they did speak to me. As you are not right now, and you are also speaking to me.

you know things are confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses…its in the bible you knew that though, right??

I have specific dislikes about Israeli foreign policy, and I’ve expressed some of those in the comments to that post. That doesn’t mean that I dislike Jews, or even that I dislike Israel

you’re all for the right of return for the palestinians…which would mean the death of millions of jews…

hint: anti-semitic means you hate the jews…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:58 PM

if you’re conceived without sin, you do not need grace at all. the word is meaningless to you.

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:54 PM

I would expect that you are absolutely correct — they would not need grace, but they would have it in abundance.

For what is grace other than a state of sanctification by God? Someone without sin (whether born that way or otherwise) would certainly fall into that category.

So, on to something worthy of your theologic skills: How many angels do you think dance upon the head of a pin?

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 9:00 PM

It has been very effective at growing the Church. Over the centuries many of the pagans converting to Catholicism were coming from spiritual systems that had a mother God.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 8:41 PM

I get what you posted, really I do. And in the context of weaning pagans off “Mother God” it makes sense to throw up Christ’s mom. But that is not what I am talking about when I refer to the cult of Mary that has grown up in the Catholic Church of America. What I am talking about are those who view Mary as the victim unable to break the stained glass ceiling and take her rightful place as part of the Holy Quartet.

Mary was vessel chosen by God. That’s all. It merits our respect but nothing more. Job was a vessel. Noah was a vessel. As were any of the prophets. The cult of Mary is simply wrong if one is a Christian.

highhopes on March 28, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Most heathen religions always have their own “Queen of Heaven”. I can’t think of one heathen religion that doesn’t.
RealDemocrat on March 28, 2009 at 7:39 PM

Islam?
Or does that not count?

Count to 10 on March 28, 2009 at 8:55 PM

Heh.

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 9:05 PM

semantics…now we can argue about whether He die for all, or just the ones who accept Him…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:52 PM

You may think semantics are not important, but most do…He died for all, but only the worthy are accepted, and He decides, not you (unless you believe all will be saved).
It was a simple error you made, but you won’t admit it…so you have been posting “semantic” responses all night, then claim they aren’t important.
You didn’t read your statement, let me re-quote it.

Anyone who Jesus died for is made worthy by what He did.

You believe that everyone is worthy now? Or the ones that He chooses…don’t be so defensive, you made a minor slip.
He died of all of man’s sins…but not all are chosen.
Romans 5:5-8
Romans 6:23
Matthew 20:23

right2bright on March 28, 2009 at 9:06 PM

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:54 PM

(John 1:14-18)

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth

clarifides on March 28, 2009 at 9:07 PM

you’re all for the right of return for the palestinians…which would mean the death of millions of jews…

hint: anti-semitic means you hate the jews…

right4life on March 28, 2009 at 8:58 PM

Wait a minute! I thought your position was that there is no right of return because they were never there in the first place? And I fail to see how giving back (is that the right word?) to the people of ‘Imwas their property (now part of Canada Park) would cause anyone’s death? The people of ‘Imwas were peaceable enough to use the Israeli court system to assert their rights, and that certainly doesn’t seem death causing to me…

Of course, allowing Hamas anywhere near a Jew is a potential cause of death to the Jew, and I’m certainly not advocating that! Allowing Hamas anywhere near a Christian is probably going to result in the same. But there’s a reason both for Hamas to shoot rockets almost guaranteed to hit civilians and for Israeli troops to wear t-shirts with pregnant Muslims in cross-hairs on the back with the logo “1 shot — 2 kills!”, and that reason (identical on both sides) is what I find detestable.

unclesmrgol on March 28, 2009 at 9:08 PM

One last comment on this thread and I’ll say goodnight.
Here are some other similar assurances of the Lord’s blessing and salutations to persons other than Mary:

Genesis 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him [Jacob] the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.

Joshua 1:1,9 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying,…
Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

Judges 6:12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him [Gideon], and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee [Saul], and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee [Nation of Israel] for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Jeremiah 1:8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee [Jeremiah] to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

Zephaniah 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee [Nation of Israel and by Christ, Christians] is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Christian Conservative on March 28, 2009 at 9:08 PM

Mary was vessel chosen by God. That’s all. It merits our respect but nothing more. Job was a vessel. Noah was a vessel. As were any of the prophets. The cult of Mary is simply wrong if one is a Christian.

highhopes on March 28, 2009 at 9:01 PM

It may be. I haven’t studied it too closely. It probably comes down to whether you believe that through apostolic succession that the RCC leaders continue to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

My observation in the U.S. is that there are some extremely devout Catholics who believe that they have a special relationship with Mary. Maybe they are ultimately wrong about Mary’s role, but it does inspire them to practice Christian values on a daily basis.

dedalus on March 28, 2009 at 9:08 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5