“Pro-life” Harry Reid backs government-funded abortions

posted at 3:32 pm on March 27, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Harry Reid has insisted for years that he supports the pro-life cause in the Senate, despite his role as a Democratic Party leader.  He has provided votes to prohibit federal funding of abortions, most recently in February 2008, along with eight other Democratic Senators.  However, John McCormack of The Weekly Standard reports that Reid may have shifted — and significantly — towards the pro-abortion lobby.  In a breakfast meeting sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, Reid reversed himself:

TWS: Senator, progressive Rev. Jim Wallis recently said that including abortion provisions in health care reform would kill health care reform. One, do you agree with that assessment? And, two, will you vote for a health care bill that covers abortion?

Senator Reid: Does what with abortion?

TWS: Covered it–provided insurance coverage for abortion.

Senator Reid: Well, first of all abortion is an important issue, very emotional issue, but we have to recognize that unintended pregnancies is where we should focus our attention. Unintended pregnancies wind up–half of them wind up in abortions, so everything we can do to limit the number of unintended pregnancies helps with the number of abortions. I think that it’s very obvious we don’t do enough in that regard. I’ve worked–I don’t want to boast, but I think I’ve been the leader if not one of the leaders in promoting legislation dealing with contraceptives. Hillary Clinton was a tremendous asset in that regard, and it’s kind of unusual with someone with my standing about abortion to be awarded in Nevada a legislative year award by Planned Parenthood. So I think I’m heading in the right direction.

Since the soliloquy above appeared non-responsive, John asked the question again:

Reid didn’t answer the question directly, so after the meeting concluded, THE WEEKLY STANDARD asked him again if he could support a national health care bill that provided coverage for abortion. “I could,” Reid replied.

Read all of John’s post to find out how Reid’s office reacted to John’s question, and especially to the answer Reid provided.  Needless to say, they refused to comment on the substance of Reid’s answer, and instead tried insulting John.  Great strategy, folks!

It’s not just difficult to describe one’s self as pro-life while voting to provide federal funding for abortions; it’s entirely contradictory.  One cannot be “pro-life” while funding the destruction of human children in the womb.  It’s the same as insisting that one is frequently celibate.  Even some pro-choice advocates don’t want tax dollars paying for abortions, and abortion opponents see such funding as cooperation with a great, intrinsic evil.

This points out, though, the crisis that will come with a nationalized health-care system.  People who advocate for such a system will have a difficult time rationalizing the exclusion of abortion.  The Obama plan will almost certainly override the Hyde Amendment, despite Obama’s promises to respect it.  Harry Reid apparently understands this and has already rearranged his “pro-life” values accordingly.

Blowback

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I have never seen a kidney become a person. Yet I have seen several fetuses become a person. Once again I am asking you about the potential of the fetus as opposed to the kidney. Do you deny that an abortion destroys a potential life where destroying a kidney does not?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM

Every abortion supporter I’ve spoken to acknowledges that abortion, minimally, ends the life of a potential person.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM

To argue for pro-life, you have to argue that the state has a vested interest that the parents are properly nourished and ensure they do proper pre-natal care — or, I suppose, you charge them with child abuse. Would you not? Logically, you’d have to – if you want to be consistent.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM

That’s where the whole thing turns from Soc Con defender to Huckabee heckler, like I pointed out earlier. I tend to not want the state to be involved with pre-natal care, etc. I just want them to protect the life, then butt out. Sort of how I want the military to keep enemies from invading our shores, not to patrol my street…

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM

Sometimes there are no good options.

Sekhmet on March 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM

None of the scenarios you described justify killing a baby. Between any of those scenarios and not killing the baby, not killing the baby is the good option.

Kensington on March 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM

Do the parents have the right to terminate the life of the child after birth?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Not after birth, nope. If they want to give up the child at that point, there are other means if they want to make that choice.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM

Look, all you people. Radio doesn’t care. Radio has already said a fetus is human life and has no problem with it being aborted. That’s all there is to it. People who can think that way will never change. They do not respect human life.

bloggless on March 27, 2009 at 5:01 PM

Look, you can disagree with Radio, but at least try to understand what he(?) is saying. What you just wrote indicates that you don’t understand.

He has pointed out very correctly that just saying “human life” is not the end of the argument, either for you or for anyone else. You could take what you just said, apply it to capital punishment, and it would apply equally well. That does NOT mean that capital punishment is the same as abortion. It DOES mean that you need to articulate the difference more clearly in your argument. Just saying “human life” is simplistic and not even what you actually believe.

tneloms on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

AnninCA on March 27, 2009 at 3:39 PM

Could you support re-examination of the issue or is it resolved as “good law”, or based on actual popular opinion or medically sound as written?
Polling data

Whatever mixed results the polling data show – the laws are incongruous with majority opinions regarding what circumstances and when in the pregnancy it is allowable. Is that a reason to re-examine Roe?

As the law is written it is clearly in conflict with the supposition that it is legal based on the 14th amendment. Either you have privacy or you don’t – privacy doesn’t begin and end at 24 weeks gestation. Is Roe sound law to you?

Further as medicine has advanced we find ourselves in a unique situation- a baby born at 22-24 weeks is feverishly being saved and in another room in the same facility a 24 week unwanted, but otherwise healthy pregnancy is being terminated. Is it reasonable to at least re-examine Roe based on advances in medicine?

…This is about government paying for it. If you wanna go get one, cool with me. I don’t give two craps.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 3:44 PM

May I add – Whatever side of this issue a person finds themselves on – we can agree that abortion is an elective procedure. What elective procedures do taxpayers fund?

batterup on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

I’m sorry if you don’t see a logical contradiction there then I don’t know how we can talk about anything with you.

radiofreevillage on March 27, 2009 at 5:21 PM

There is no contradiction. He forfeited his right to life when he killed the two. The fact that our system allows the state to not ratify and carry out their right to punish is not inconsistent.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM

That’s where the whole thing turns from Soc Con defender to Huckabee heckler, like I pointed out earlier. I tend to not want the state to be involved with pre-natal care, etc. I just want them to protect the life, then butt out. Sort of how I want the military to keep enemies from invading our shores, not to patrol my street…

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:25 PM

So the line of thought isn’t consistent. So you’d possibly sentence a baby to a life, if the parent is (worst case scenario, admittedly) drinking, doing drugs, smoking, etc – but no abortion.

If the baby is truly a life (and you believe that), then you must require monitoring of the parent. If the baby is born, and they start feeding it vodka they’d throw her in jail. If they gave it a cigarette, same thing. But before birth? No, it’s okay?

I mean, come on, man.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM

You set me up….

What elective procedures do taxpayers fund?

batterup on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Nancy Pelosi’s face lifts.

And I hit it out of the ball park. Too easy!

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 5:23 PM

Yes, I understand. But it was necessary for me to present the first step of the argument for those that try to deny that a fetus is a human life at all.

The truth that is undeniable is what will be most likely to happen if an abortion is not allowed to be terminated. I think we can agree that the zygote, or later fetus, will become a human being.

The questions revolving around abortion are about when the “potential” life is conferred rights. In ALL states it is NOT birth that determines the rights of the fetus, but a more nebulous idea of viability. As far as I know, late term abortions are illegal in all states except for when the health of the mother is at stake.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM

So what I am asking, is why we allow rights to be conferred to the most evil and depraved of criminals, but we do not allow a human life in the womb to have rights?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:06 PM

Or a tissue culture from a human cell line? Deliberately infecting one with a pathogen? Disposal when finished with the lab procedure? Those cell lines originated with conception.

a capella on March 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM

What elective procedures do taxpayers fund?

batterup on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Lawsuits.

tneloms on March 27, 2009 at 5:34 PM

So the line of thought isn’t consistent. So you’d possibly sentence a baby to a life, if the parent is (worst case scenario, admittedly) drinking, doing drugs, smoking, etc – but no abortion.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM

Pretty much, but I don’t see it as inconsistent. The government has the obligation to protect our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, but it doesn’t have right to raise our children, or tell us how to do it.

I can see your logic, but I just draw the line in a different place. The military is a good example. I expect them to defend me from foreign invaders, but I do not want them acting as a police force within my neighborhood.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM

So you are telling me that parental responsibility only begins at birth? Up until that point they can destroy their child without remorse or recriminations?

The mother has no responsibility to seek good pre-natal care?

The mother has no responsibility to avoid alcohol and drugs while pregnant?

Both parents do not have a responsibility to prepare a home for the child?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM

Kensington on March 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM

In the case of the mother who needs meds to survive, she either takes the meds and miscarries, or doesn’t take the meds, and possibly dies before the baby can survive outside her. This is a good option?

Sekhmet on March 27, 2009 at 5:37 PM

There is no contradiction. He forfeited his right to life when he killed the two.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM

When you say that he has “forfeited his right to life,” you only push the argument down the road. The point is, you (or our justice system) have made a decision on who has the right to life and who doesn’t. By doing this, you must admit that the right to life is not absolute and that others can make decisions about who has it and who doesn’t.

That doesn’t mean that capital punishment and abortion are the same. You can still reasonably argue why it’s sensible to make the decision on a criminal’s right to life and why it’s not for a fetus (and several people have made those points here), but using an absolute “right to life” argument without a lot of qualifying statements is not enough to justify abortion being absolutely wrong.

tneloms on March 27, 2009 at 5:38 PM

a capella on March 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM

Experimentation on human subjects has always been at the center of scientific ethics. That is not altered by birth. The debate has always focused on the potential to end the life of a human being. Take that statement where you will. But if experimentation on embryos is not at least a little disturbing to you then your ethics are not kicking in. Regardless of where your final decision places you on the matter, the debate is essential to ethical science.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:41 PM

This guy’s a Mormon? How is he a member in good standing? Wow!

ronsfi on March 27, 2009 at 5:42 PM

Well, first off you don’t need a signed written will. Terry Schivo anyone? Secondly, a fetus is part of the mother’s body and cannot give consent to anything.

I’m not equating a fetus to a felon. Quite the opposite, I’m saying killing a felon is infinitely more egregious if “human life” is your ultimate argument.

radiofreevillage on March 27, 2009 at 5:05 PM

I agree about Terri Shiavo. The whole political frenzy about it was ridiculous. I personally thought the husband was a jerk and a lunatic, but that doesn’t mean I thought they should have hurried legislation to keep her tube in. On abortion, I’m pro-life, but I don’t believe in overturning Roe vs. Wade. Too much political drama if it ever did happen. Might as well just leave the issue alone. It shouldn’t be a political issue to begin with; therefore, there should be no funding of abortion clinics on the national level nor should there be funding for abortion fund for international abortions (I forget the name of the one that Obama reinstated).

NathanG on March 27, 2009 at 5:45 PM

When you say that he has “forfeited his right to life,” you only push the argument down the road

tneloms on March 27, 2009 at 5:38 PM

I don’t see it that way. One has a right to life. If one knowingly commits a capital crime, they have forfeited that right. If they don’t know any better, (ie insane), they are institutionalized. In the case of ‘pulling the plug’, if one signs a paper that requests no resuscitation, they have waived their right in case of irreversible brain damage. In the case of a baby in the womb, there is no issue of forfeiting of rights. I assume the baby is human, and therefore has the same rights as a non-convicted adult.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:46 PM

The questions revolving around abortion are about when the “potential” life is conferred rights. In ALL states it is NOT birth that determines the rights of the fetus, but a more nebulous idea of viability. As far as I know, late term abortions are illegal in all states except for when the health of the mother is at stake.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:32 PM

That position is roughly what Roe outlined. There should be protections for the fetus after viability. However, the implementation is difficult because of the polarization on the issue and because it has been tough to implement legal representation for a fetus when a woman gets a doctor to agree to a third trimester abortion.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

There is no contradiction. He forfeited his right to life when he killed the two.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM

Actually, I disagree.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

So what part of “unalienable” don’t we understand? Maybe Jefferson expanded on capital punishment later. But if we are to accept this part of the Declaration of Independence as a foundational tenet, then you cannot abdicate this right.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Sekhmet on March 27, 2009 at 5:37 PM

Most of the scenarios you presented involved court fights of some sort.

As for the one genuinely ambiguous scenario you brought up (which is so far removed from the others that they really can’t be bundled together reasonably), it still doesn’t justify opening a floodgate for all the others, particularly if the woman took no precautions to prevent pregnancy in the first place.

And considering that scenarios like this one constitute such a tiny, tiny percentage of abortions, they shouldn’t be used to settle the matter.

Kensington on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

So what part of “unalienable” don’t we understand? Maybe Jefferson expanded on capital punishment later. But if we are to accept this part of the Declaration of Independence as a foundational tenet, then you cannot abdicate this right.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

My interpretation has always been unalienable applies to outside forces. While one cannot have these rights taken away (unless convicted of a crime) they can be given up.

Vashta.Nerada on March 27, 2009 at 5:50 PM

So you are telling me that parental responsibility only begins at birth? Up until that point they can destroy their child without remorse or recriminations?

Nope. I’m saying that parents’ have the right to make their choice. You call it destroying or whatever. That’s fine. Your loaded terms don’t bother me.

Then I’d also insist you also press charges against the 20% of women whose pregnancies end in miscarriage. Are you up for that? Or the ones who lose their unborn children due to accidents of various kinds. Manslaughter would be an appropriate charge, don’t you agree?

If a parent smokes during pregnancy, I think that’s attempted murder, how about you? If she drinks, same thing. Let the charges reign down, I say.

The mother has no responsibility to seek good pre-natal care? (and the other examples)

She sure does, but if you are to argue that the child is a separate and distinct individual, then the mother not actively seeking proper care is a crime against that child isn’t it? So she must be monitored to ensure the child is born in optimal health. Any less is a crime against the child.

So, you must monitor the parents to ensure proper prenatal care and birthing. Wouldn’t you?

Let’s just reach the logical end here. It’s okay, really. Just, in your head, reach the logical end of your line of thought.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:36 PM

I think Lorien’s getting at a point I make every so often. That which you cannot kill you cannot allow to die if you have some reasonable means of preventing the death.

Pregnancy and birth are hazardous, even without the intent to abort. Miscarriages happen all the time, babies die during the birth process, or mysteriously die in the womb all the time.Everything under the sun has been blamed for miscarriages. Laws that allow abortion also allow for less stringent management of pregnancy complications, birthing choices for women, and even the room to make a mistake or two during pregnancy.

Outlawing abortion based on the rights of the fetus (previous abortion bans were based on other things) can take a lot of that away. Before you think it is worth it, imagine you or your spouse hospitalized for every pregnancy complication. It will make that vasectomy look really good after only one child after you get the bill

Sekhmet on March 27, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Nancy Pelosi’s face lifts.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:30 PM

heh – let’s get a refund, they forgot to sew her lips shut.

batterup on March 27, 2009 at 5:54 PM

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

You take that wildly out of context. It takes real balls to do that. Congrats.

Thomas Jefferson –

“Punishments I know are necessary, and I would provide them strict and inflexible, but proportioned to the crime. Death might be inflicted for murder and perhaps for treason, [but I] would take out of the description of treason all crimes which are not such in their nature. Rape, buggery, etc., punish by castration. All other crimes by working on high roads, rivers, gallies, etc., a certain time proportioned to the offence. . . . Laws thus proportionate and mild should never be dispensed with. Let mercy be the character of the lawgiver, but let the judge be a mere machine. The mercies of the law will be dispensed equally and impartially to every description of men; those of the judge or of the executive power will be the eccentric impulses of whimsical, capricious designing man.”

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Sekhmet on March 27, 2009 at 5:53 PM

Interesting insight. Hadn’t thought it through in that way.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 5:56 PM

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 5:47 PM

Indeed, you are now seeing more of what I feel is the fault with Roe V. Wade and the entire abortion debate. As social policy it is inherently divisive. The definitions and strictures placed on abortion are too difficult to define and identify. Do we feel that issues that inherently divide us are good for our society?

I feel that Roe v. Wade has done more damage to this country than any single war you could name. It has established a grounds to legitimize irresponsibility as a reasoning for law. In a perfect world, which we will never have, this law would be moot because nobody would conceive a child they did not want and no pregnancies would have complications.

It is because of our imperfections and that of our world that such issues arise. But I submit that enacting law that moves us farther from our perfect world is not the right direction.

While there will always be unintended pregnancies, the social acceptance of them is much too lenient. We have allowed the responsibilities of an active sexual relationship to avoid the question of pregnancy rather than making it part of the considerations for having sex. We have excused irresponsibility by saying it is OK to end it.

I submit that we have allowed our own irresponsibility as a society to guide us down the easy path rather than the correct path. As a result we will debate this and drive wedges among our own people. All to protect those that cannot be responsible for their bodily functions. So we make the child bear the punishment for our irresponsibility.

Nice, real nice.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:58 PM

If a woman says: ’screw the baby, I need to go shopping’ then I will think less of the woman because of the set of priorities that she demonstrates. But this isn’t murder. It’s a decision that fall into the realm of acceptable to me.

radiofreevillage on March 27, 2009 at 5:00 PM

That has to be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on this subject. You seem to have issue with a society establishing laws that carry the death penalty but think a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with a baby who has brokken no law. If you consider a woman aborting her child for any trivial reason acceptable discussion with you is a waste of time. Done here.

katiejane on March 27, 2009 at 6:02 PM

Yesssss, Harry Reid has come to the dark side, muhahahaha.

Terry Silver on March 27, 2009 at 6:09 PM

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:55 PM

Please refrain from your placing your emotions upon me. You may feel I have taken this out of context, but does the conflict inherent in the two positions by Jefferson not disturb you?

You quote Jefferson, but you do not date the quote or give context. Was this quote from before or after the Declaration of Independence. In which direction did the ideas by Jefferson evolve? So I am not the only one lacking context here.

Let us explore further. The choice of the word “unalienable” was purposeful and explained by Jefferson. He reasoned that rights inferred by your Creator cannot be rescinded by man. Such an idea was necessary to the thought that Britain did not have the right to subjugate a people or deny them these rights.

So please explain how my statement is out of context and how it relates to the quote that you have made. After all, the Declaration is one of our founding documents. It is the basis for much of our philosophy in law. Your quote is not in the Declaration or the Constitution, so it is not part of the founding law. But it may explain some of the philosophical ideas behind what Jefferson intended. So please expand for me?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Experimentation on human subjects has always been at the center of scientific ethics. That is not altered by birth. The debate has always focused on the potential to end the life of a human being.

Agreed. As is the choice to generate unused multiple embryos during in vitro pregnancy attempts, resulting in a quandry as to disposal.

Take that statement where you will.

The DNA argument makes it open ended.

But if experimentation on embryos is not at least a little disturbing to you then your ethics are not kicking in.

Of course. But the abortion argument isn’t about experimentation, as would be cloning, although that too is fraught with ethical minefields. It is a social issue.

Regardless of where your final decision places you on the matter, the debate is essential to ethical science.

I’m opposed to absolutes on either side and federal or state law allowing no exceptions, which creates a criminal class on the matter.

a capella on March 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM

Of course. But the abortion argument isn’t about experimentation, as would be cloning, although that too is fraught with ethical minefields. It is a social issue.

a capella on March 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM

I would remind you that I was not the one that introduced experimentation into the debate. You did that. My post was an answer to yours.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 6:21 PM

I find it easy to draw a Distinction between someone who has chosen to commit a crime that society has deemed worthy of death, and an unborn child.
.
I would be willing to act as the executioner of the former, and God willing, the people who terminate the latter, will be the former.

darktood on March 27, 2009 at 6:21 PM

Agreed. As is the choice to generate unused multiple embryos during in vitro pregnancy attempts, resulting in a quandry as to disposal.
.
a capella on March 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM

.
Cryogenically preserve them in as close as we can come to a radiation free chamber, and allow them to be adopted.

darktood on March 27, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Which of the following best describes Harry Reid?
a) crusader for truth
b) defender of human life
c) gallant statesman
d) evil, lying pissant

whitetop on March 27, 2009 at 6:31 PM

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:51 PM

Here is the logical end of that line of thought.

Acts are not considered criminal when they are out of the control of the individual that performs them. Law requires not only liability, but also culpability for a crime. Therefore a miscarriage is not a crime. However, if a mother performs acts that result in the death of her child out of negligence, then they may be guilty of negligent homicide.

Here is also, the end of my logic. A child is just as dependent on others to survive after birth as beforehand. If you do not feed them they die. They cannot feed themselves for some time after birth. The actual birth itself changes little in the context of the child.

What we fail to acknowledge is that our preoccupation with abortion is entirely about how it impacts the mother and studiously attempts to avoid the issues of the child. That is not honest on any level. It is pure sophistry designed to mask the ethical issues in order to avoid the REAL moment of responsibility.

If you do not want a child then do not conceive one. There are a lot of birth control methods that are proven effective. Yet many people avoid them then use abortion as a birth control method. It is nothing more than people that wish to have the benefits of being an adult without the responsibilities. I feel that if you are not prepared to deal with the responsibilities of your decision then you are not an adult in the first place.

Yet, in our society we choose to embrace the idea that we can delay maturity. We pass laws and adopt social stances that ignore the impacts on our society all in the name of control over your body. Yes, you DO have control over your body! So why are you defending the irresponsible choice to practice proper birth control and excusing the mistake where the REAL adult decision would have been made.

Instead you kill a kid to fix it.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 6:38 PM

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:51 PM

You don’t have a clue about the terms murder and manslaughter.

Laughable.

Jamson64 on March 27, 2009 at 6:38 PM

Indeed, you are now seeing more of what I feel is the fault with Roe V. Wade and the entire abortion debate. As social policy it is inherently divisive. The definitions and strictures placed on abortion are too difficult to define and identify. Do we feel that issues that inherently divide us are good for our society?

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 5:58 PM

The law is inherently about drawing lines. It is difficult to avoid–voting age, speed limits, jail sentences, tax rates. In Roe SCOTUS tried to recognize some gradual increase in the rights of the unborn. However, any alternative would involve new lines being drawn. Perhaps the line is at conception or implantation or at viability. You’ve identified a problem with casual sex and a lack of responsibility. I’d agree, but it is difficult to imagine (even hypothetically) how the law can step in to legislate more responsible sexual behavior.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 6:39 PM

I’ve NEVER voted Republican, since my 20’s, and this issue was key.

I voted straight Democrat for over 30 years.

I was attracted to McCain this year. And I voted for him.

But I’ll never vote for an anti-abortion candidate. He/she can appeal to all of you who think that way.

AnninCA on March 27, 2009 at 4:04 PM

John McCain is a republican and pro-life, so you just contradicted youself twice in a single post—congratulations!

mossberg500 on March 27, 2009 at 6:44 PM

Lorien=–

Manslaughter
:

The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

-In a normal accident-let us say she slips on ice- the mother would not be charged.

murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is “quick” (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.
See also: first degree murder homicide malice aforethought manslaughter premeditation second degree murder.

–Therefore, smoking would only be murder if there was intent and the child died.


You don’t like loaded words…is destroyed not applicable?

Look up destroyed…see if it applies.

You are as lost as any.

Jamson64 on March 27, 2009 at 6:46 PM

AnninCA on March 27, 2009 at 4:04 PM

you are lost

you know it

Jamson64 on March 27, 2009 at 6:47 PM

This guy’s a Mormon? How is he a member in good standing? Wow!

ronsfi on March 27, 2009 at 5:42 PM

Actually as a Mormon I have wondered that myself.

But I have no idea really what he is like in his personal life, nor is it my business. He has been consitently pro-life up to this point. His conscience is between him and God. There are actually lots of Mormons who are Democrats… though the ones I know usually vote Republican, they just call themselves Democrats because of family traditions or something. I know there are whole sections of Arizona that are heavily Mormon and Democrat but those places always vote Republican statewide and nationally.

I have heard that Democrats consider him a very very kind man willing to listen to their problems and help solve problems that is why he is in the position he is, he is supposed to be personally kind. And Heaven knows it isn’t his sparkling personality!

I think it might be worth moving to Nevada to vote against him.

petunia on March 27, 2009 at 6:59 PM

I’ll keep tracking reasonable, moderate Republicans and Democrats and leave the fringe edges of both parties to your own.

AnninCA on March 27, 2009 at 4:04 PM

Those types of politicians can better be described as lost wandering fools that subscribe to everything and believe in nothing . . . no right, not wrong, just infinite shades of gray. No thanks, I prefer not to live in a world devoid of thought, reason, passion and commitment. Be whatever you desire but above all, be something.

rplat on March 27, 2009 at 7:01 PM

Like hell he’s pro life.

And I just saw on Drudge that Dr. RotoTiller was found not guilty in the late term abortion case.

ErinF on March 27, 2009 at 7:09 PM

The law is inherently about drawing lines. It is difficult to avoid–voting age, speed limits, jail sentences, tax rates. In Roe SCOTUS tried to recognize some gradual increase in the rights of the unborn. However, any alternative would involve new lines being drawn. Perhaps the line is at conception or implantation or at viability. You’ve identified a problem with casual sex and a lack of responsibility. I’d agree, but it is difficult to imagine (even hypothetically) how the law can step in to legislate more responsible sexual behavior.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 6:39 PM

Abortion is one of the most vexing questions to face a democracy, because it sits at the intersection of life and liberty. There is no doubt that an abortion results in one less human being – even those who are squeamish about calling it “murder” can’t deny that someone is losing their life, a life that would have existed without the intervention of the abortionist. Even without entering the religious discussion of exactly when life begins, it is a matter of cold logic that one abortion equals one less baby.

There is also little doubt that outlawing abortion restricts the liberty of the mother, who will be obliged to suffer through a terrible ordeal to deliver a baby she doesn’t think she wants, or doesn’t feel she can care for. If birthing and raising a child were easy, we would not have the reverence we feel for the awesome love and selfless dedication that make them possible.

No matter which way society decides the matter, either life or liberty are going to suffer… so the way a society decides this issue says a great deal about its character.

For myself, as I have grown older, I find it increasingly difficult to take the pro-abortion position. I know this is partially an emotional response, as every baby I hold makes it harder for me to justify extinguishing their lives for the sake of convenience. It was easier to be reflexively pro-abortion when I was younger, because the quick and dirty “it’s nobody’s business but the mother” response is the abdication of moral reasoning – hey, it’s not up to me to decide, so I’m not even going to think about it.

I’ve come around to seeing it like this: with the rare rape exception, a pregnancy is the result of the mother making a choice, a choice that was once understood to have enormous consequences. Those antique Victorian notions of virtue and fidelity were not invented by grumpy old farts to make young people feel bitter and frustrated. If human beings are to consider themselves something more than animals, we must also accept the responsibilities of that elevated status, and thousands of years of experience have taught us that sex, love, and birth are part of one inseparable package. We know that a society can afford to have a few wantons and libertines circling around its fringe, but the core of the society has to aim for something higher, and nobler. Sexual liberty followed by abortion requires the father and mother to deny something obvious they have known all their lives, and much of the social unrest in modern societies comes from the cognitive dissonance produced by that denial of truth. If sex is just a pleasant diversion, and pregnancy an easily corrected inconvenience, what else is truly significant and meaningful in life? If my children can be erased because they get in my way, what could not be erased because it gets in my way?

Abortion is the sacrifice of one future in the service of another. It is the calculation that having one life with greater material prosperity and freedom is better than taking a chance on having two. It is the opposite of the optimistic belief that having more people in the world means having more good people in the world. A society that absolutely chooses liberty over life is a society on a downward spiral that is merely trying to manage its decline, and find a comfortable place to decompose. It seems to be the guiding principle in the dying West that we should devote our energies to managing failure, rather than celebrating success and taking risks to achieve rewards.

With due consideration for the extreme life-of-the-mother situations, it seems to me that one of the first steps we could take to reversing the decline of the West might be to affirm that we stand on the side of life above liberty, because we embrace the wild possibilities of love and sacrifice above the cold calculation of self-interest.

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:16 PM

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 6:39 PM

I agree, the law is inherently about drawing lines. But it is also a responsibility of the law to be clear and concise. Otherwise interpretation of the law is difficult.

What we often come to find in cases like Roe v Wade is that the ability to make a clear and concise determination only exists at the two ends of the debate. Either you make abortion legal until birth, or you outlaw it altogether.

Besides, Roe was not really about outlawing abortion at all. That is a fallacy. It is about making abortion rights a federal issue so that the states could not revoke them. I do not oppose Roe on abortion grounds at all. I oppose it on the grounds that the federal government has no Constitutional authority to be involved. It belongs in the states.

If Roe were overturned it would not remove abortion rights at all. It would simply return them to the states to decide. Some few states would probably outlaw it. Most would probably keep it just as it stands now. The central question surrounding abortion still remains whether it is murder or not. That is a state issue, not a federal one.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:23 PM

With due consideration for the extreme life-of-the-mother situations, it seems to me that one of the first steps we could take to reversing the decline of the West might be to affirm that we stand on the side of life above liberty, because we embrace the wild possibilities of love and sacrifice above the cold calculation of self-interest.

Being a staunch pro-life person, here’s my solution to abortion:
Allow every American woman one doctor-performed abortion in her lifetime, which must be done within the first trimester and no later. And she must pay for it herself 100%.

Should she decide she ever finds herself in need of a second abortion in her lifetime, fine. Remove the baby (again, within the first trimester, paid for by her) and take the whole uterus out along with it.

Furthermore, we should not be performing abortions in other countries. If people elsewhere don’t want to conceive, I would be willing to fund their hysterectomies. But not their abortions.

ErinF on March 27, 2009 at 7:24 PM

“Pro-life” Harry Reid backs government-funded abortions

In other related news, “Pro-Jewish” Mahmoud Ahmadinejad backs dropping A-bombs on Israel.

MB4 on March 27, 2009 at 7:27 PM

That is a state issue, not a federal one.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:23 PM

Those are good points.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:28 PM

Harry Reid needs an enema.

MB4 on March 27, 2009 at 7:28 PM

Harry Reid needs an enema.

LOL! That would result in his brain oozing out.

ErinF on March 27, 2009 at 7:29 PM

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Your post was eloquent and touched on exactly what I was trying to get to. I took the long path, but I congratulate you on explaining the conclusion of my argument even better than I was likely to do myself.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:31 PM

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Bravo! Beautifully put!

Kensington on March 27, 2009 at 7:35 PM

I am not against the killing of children – I think we ought to have that right as our Puritan ancestors did – anyone who has dealt with a recalcitrant child (or lippy teenager, for that matter)can surely see my point.

My complaint with abortion is how barbaric it is. Seriously, unless it is dealt with almost as a morning after pill, it really is a horrendous act. There simply is no good way to do it. Even if it is being done for the best of reasons – it is a cruel procedure.

PETA worries about fish having nerve endings, etc – well we know human fetuses do, but it’s ok to hack them to pieces while they are still alive, or burn them with salt?

I think there would be a whole lot less abortions if the recipients could see ultrasounds of their babies, and knew exactly what was going to be done to them.

Queen0fCups on March 27, 2009 at 7:35 PM

You do realize that if the shameless media would report on the rampant lying of the libs and Obama that people would lynch half of these crooks. Ignorance is bliss…

marklmail on March 27, 2009 at 7:35 PM

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Actually, although this is usually not the case, I think that people of long ago had a better take, and more “middle of the road” position, on all this than a lot of people have today, with their simple concept of “Quickening”.

MB4 on March 27, 2009 at 7:39 PM

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:28 PM

I would like to make one final point about abortion before I give it a rest. Doctor Zero pointed directly at the most vexing problem with the abortion debate. It stands directly at the intersection of life and liberty. No matter what choice we make, either life or liberty will be sacrificed in the result.

Our country has a tradition of protecting liberties, but they have always had a limit. Many of us probably heard of the classic example where your right to free speech does not allow you to yell “FIRE” in a crowded theater. That is because you would endanger the right of other people to their life in the ensuing panic.

The rights we possess have always been limited by the rights of others. Abortion is an abrogation of that concept. It denies the rights of the life in the womb in an effort to award the mother the right to end it. It imposes the liberty of one upon the life of the other. That is not the American tradition.

Abortion stands today as a national disgrace. It is our greatest single symbol that the excess of the Hippie movement has corrupted the American soul and fundamentally changed our perceptions on what is acceptable. Abortion is no more than another form of the lack of responsibility and greed that has taken us to economic ruin as well. It is the very crux of what is bringing America to its knees.

We have lost our way.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:40 PM

We have lost our way.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:40 PM

If everyone would simply go directly back and read the directions then perhaps everyone would directly be directed back in the right direction.

Cheshire Cat on March 27, 2009 at 7:46 PM

We have lost our way.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:40 PM

Perhaps, but through our 230+ years as a country we’ve had many crises and seemed, if not lost, then searching for a better way. The Court in 1973 was hardly composed of hippies, and I doubt their minds were much influenced by them. The rights and liberties you point to were established by our founding fathers, who denied many of those rights to blacks, women and native Americans. Did they intend to grant those rights to the unborn? As MB4 points out “quickening” is probably where many of them would have pointed to.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:51 PM

With due consideration for the extreme life-of-the-mother situations, it seems to me that one of the first steps we could take to reversing the decline of the West might be to affirm that we stand on the side of life above liberty, because we embrace the wild possibilities of love and sacrifice above the cold calculation of self-interest.

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:16 PM

Yes, but we don’t have to wait for it to happen in the courthouse or in the voting booth.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:53 PM

Abortion stands today as a national disgrace. It is our greatest single symbol that the excess of the Hippie movement has corrupted the American soul and fundamentally changed our perceptions on what is acceptable. Abortion is no more than another form of the lack of responsibility and greed that has taken us to economic ruin as well. It is the very crux of what is bringing America to its knees.

We have lost our way.

Hawthorne on March 27, 2009 at 7:40 PM

When I was in college, I had a literature professor who explained that achieving mastery of the basics was necessary before one could become “experimental.” Learning and obeying the rules of English did not imprison the writer – it set him free. Without those rules, nothing meaningful can be written – language does not benefit from anarchy. But with a firm understanding of those rules, a writer can transcend the dry data dump of purely technical writing, and achieve soaring prose.

The hippie movement you described pulled a terrible con job on the women of the 60s and 70s, convincing them they could only achieve true “liberty” by casting aside all the old norms of marriage and motherhood. A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, as they said. Sexually ravenous young men were only too happy to go along with this sexual revolution.

In reality, the libertine age that resulted has only reduced the true liberties of women, and allowed men to live in an extended adolescence that drags their twenties out into their forties. We gained the tawdry and superficial freedom of unrestricted license – sleep with anybody, put off marriage forever, and abort the odd unplanned pregnancy. We lost the true freedom that came from mastering the rules of love, fidelity, fatherhood, and motherhood… the freedom to grow up, and achieve higher and nobler things. We became writers who never feel compelled to finish their autobiographies… we just keep throwing out what we’ve done and starting over.

Because leftish American society is so painfully immature, it can never see how anarchy is the denial of freedom, not its ultimate expression.

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:56 PM

The rights and liberties you point to were established by our founding fathers, who denied many of those rights to blacks, women and native Americans. Did they intend to grant those rights to the unborn? As MB4 points out “quickening” is probably where many of them would have pointed to.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:51 PM

We don’t have to declare the Founders perfect to learn from them. Why can’t we build on their wisdom instead of dismissing it because of their mistakes? Every passing year makes it seem that what they got right is so much more amazing than what they got wrong.

Yes, but we don’t have to wait for it to happen in the courthouse or in the voting booth.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 7:53 PM

True, but it can die in the courthouse and the voting booth.
The current administration is painful proof that philosophical victories are fragile blossoms that can be easily crushed by the iron boot of the mega-state. If nothing else, there is the simple truth that you get more of what you subsidize, and in the current tug-of-war between pro-abortion and pro-life, the former is very heavily subsidized indeed. When it comes to weighing the merits of different ideas, government has a big thumb it can press down on the scales.

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 8:02 PM

We don’t have to declare the Founders perfect to learn from them. Why can’t we build on their wisdom instead of dismissing it because of their mistakes? Every passing year makes it seem that what they got right is so much more amazing than what they got wrong.
Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Yes, I admire the founders greatly but Jefferson’s notion of who possessed those rights was based on some innate ability.
Based on the age he didn’t believe some people possessed those rights. Should we now extend those rights to the unborn? Maybe, but it wouldn’t be due to the founders’ mindset.

dedalus on March 27, 2009 at 8:06 PM

I am not against the killing of children – I think we ought to have that right as our Puritan ancestors did – anyone who has dealt with a recalcitrant child (or lippy teenager, for that matter)can surely see my point.

Queen0fCups on March 27, 2009 at 7:35 PM

There was a provision in the Old Testament for incurably rebellious children to be hauled out in front of the town and stoned to death.

Now I’m guessing that option wasn’t used very often, for obvious reasons. But between that and wise application of a handy LPIE*, parents had the tools to make any misbehaving progeny behave better whenever that became necessary.

*Lateral Posterior Impact Enhancer

Dark-Star on March 27, 2009 at 8:16 PM

What elective procedures do taxpayers fund?

batterup on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Nancy Pelosi’s face lifts.

Isn’t her butt making its second pass past her head by now?

karl9000 on March 27, 2009 at 8:42 PM

I think there would be a whole lot less abortions if the recipients could see ultrasounds of their babies, and knew exactly what was going to be done to them.

Queen0fCups on March 27, 2009 at 7:35 PM

I wish that we could really educate those who find themselves in that position of making a choice. When Roe was decided science was not as clear as it is now. Viabiliy was something quite different then. Now you can SEE the BABY! There is no scientific doubt about what it is any longer. There is no excuse left.

There is so much money to be made and political careers to be furthered with the continued use of abortion. It is barbaric and inhumane.

petunia on March 27, 2009 at 9:21 PM


Unintended pregnancies wind up–half of them wind up in abortions,

Looking at Harry’s aged face you can bet your a$$ he was an unintended pregnancy child. He ought to thank God his Mama was pro-life.

Herb on March 27, 2009 at 10:37 PM

RADIOFREEVILLAGE,,,, You were earlier mocking the sky god as you called it. You mean you are banking your eternity on a guess? Do you know after your death you will have no choice but your eternal destination is sealed and are you willing to take such a huge gamble on that??. Furthermore would you be for women to have the right to abort post born babies up to two years of age for whatever reason? Maybe the baby is the wrong sex, ugly, or takes too much time for the parents. You think the parents would have the right of choice in this instance?

garydt on March 27, 2009 at 10:38 PM

Just saying “human life” is simplistic and not even what you actually believe.

tneloms on March 27, 2009 at 5:28 PM

Innocent human life.

Any questions now?

Any comparisons to capital punishment?

Yeah, I thought not.

BKennedy on March 27, 2009 at 10:39 PM

Not after birth, nope. If they want to give up the child at that point, there are other means if they want to make that choice.

lorien1973 on March 27, 2009 at 5:26 PM

Why not after that? I get the idea you’re just using knee jerk arguments here and really have no idea what you are talking about. The idea that the abortion is any less painful for the child, etc, a few months before birth is any less painful or gruesome is a fallacy. You’re playing God when you get to determine the point at which someone’s life has value.

Really, by your logic, we should just go around killing unpopular people at high schools if we determine no one else wants them.

TTheoLogan on March 27, 2009 at 10:44 PM

Yeah whats the big deal giving up babies after they are born? Remember its the choice of the mother that is most important.

garydt on March 27, 2009 at 10:49 PM

In 1990, Norway added abortion to the list of medical procedures that their socialized medicine covered, along with what was considered to be a sensible provision that the abortion had to be performed prior to the beginning of the third trimester.

The result was that the hospitals were crammed with women who wanted abortions, so they were unable to treat the ill. Women in the second trimester of pregnancy got to leapfrog to the front of the line, ahead of chemo and organ transplant patients, in order to have their abortions before it was too late. Sick people who could have been saved died, a large portion of a generation of future taxpayers was eliminated, and the entire annual health care budget was gone in under 5 months.

Dozens of priests who had been employed by the Norwegian Lutheran State Church either resigned or were fired when Lutheran doctrine was changed to view abortion as acceptable when the law was signed by King Olav V, the head of the church.

It was a nightmare and a complete failure. Parlaiment saw what was happening and repealed the legislation.

I’m not stupid enough to believe that the members of congress would be interested in the history of the issue when it has been tried, but it would be nice if maybe a couple of them did a little homework before we end up in the same situation (minus the State/Church entanglements, of course).

Wingo on March 27, 2009 at 11:16 PM

How this man remains a member in good standing of the LDS Church boggles the mind.

Fed45 on March 27, 2009 at 11:26 PM

I answered you. It is possible to clone a human being from a kidney.

No, it is not.

There are, as of December 2008, no documented cases of a living human being produced through human cloning. Wikipedia

A fetus in the womb is a person.

Jerimiah 1:5
King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

You would destroy the most vulnerable members of our society. The most innocent and incapable of self-defense.

What gives your life more value than theirs?

http://www.sarah-palin-2012.blogspot.com

History Chaser on March 28, 2009 at 12:07 AM

RADIOFREEVILLAGE,,,, You were earlier mocking the sky god as you called it. You mean you are banking your eternity on a guess? Do you know after your death you will have no choice but your eternal destination is sealed and are you willing to take such a huge gamble on that??. Furthermore would you be for women to have the right to abort post born babies up to two years of age for whatever reason? Maybe the baby is the wrong sex, ugly, or takes too much time for the parents. You think the parents would have the right of choice in this instance?

1. Very powerful argument. Or it would be if it were not a simple fact that you know full well what’s promised to you by Islam if you don’t convert to it, and yet you are completely unpersuaded. I’m not gonna say something new here. You have found N religions to be false despite their claims. And N is very, very large. I just have the same opinion about N+1 religions.

2. Post-born babies aren’t the same as fetuses. No, I don’t think you can kill your baby for the wrong sex and such.

There is no contradiction. He (O.J. Simpson) forfeited his right to life when he killed the two.

Does he have it now? If so, who gave it back to him?

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 12:19 AM

Innocent human life.

Any questions now?

Any comparisons to capital punishment?

Yeah, I thought not.

BKennedy on March 27, 2009 at 10:39 PM

So laws of California are part of God’s order on Earth.

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 12:21 AM

Isn’t her butt making its second pass past her head by now?

karl9000 on March 27, 2009 at 8:42 PM

No, I think her head was irrevocably stuck there on the first pass.

Hawthorne on March 28, 2009 at 12:26 AM

radiofreevillage,

Are you an agnostic or an atheist?

Hawthorne on March 28, 2009 at 12:28 AM

Doctor Zero on March 27, 2009 at 7:56 PM

I remember being a child looking up at the puffy clouds behind the tall oak’s leaves waving in the summer wind.

My mother’s yell carried across the field for me to come in for supper.

For some reason your post reminded me of this.

Thank you.

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 12:42 AM

radiofreevillage,

Are you an agnostic or an atheist?

Hawthorne on March 28, 2009 at 12:28 AM

In short, I don’t think there’s much difference if you really think about it.

If you phrase the question about God’s existence in the most general terms possible, I can see how I might not be sure about the answer. However, once you put some meat on, all ambivalence disappears. Christianity is false. Islam is false. Judaism is false. And ridiculous, too.

An even longer version would be that I agree with Sam Harris. There’s no non-astrologers. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is at the core of any rational argument. Claims that religions make are too grandiose, and the support for them is too laughable.

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 12:52 AM

I wonder how Harry’s mom would have voted?

lasertex on March 28, 2009 at 12:55 AM

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 12:52 AM

There is indeed a great deal of difference. If you claim there is no God (an Atheist) then you are also a person of faith. It is literally impossible to prove that something does not exist.

Just because something has not been found, does not mean that you have actually looked where you would find it. Saying God does not exist is a bit like saying that your car keys do not exist simply because you have lost them and cannot find them.

When you understand this then you also need to understand that being an atheist then requires belief in something that cannot be proven, therefore it is a form of faith.

So what I fail to understand, is why one form of faith is given credence when another is not. Both sides of the argument are equally unprovable.

As for the quote by Mr. Harris, I would ask why such things are not applied to issues such as man-made climate change. While we may have reasonable proof that there is indeed a climate change taking place, the evidence that it is man-made is tenuous at best. In fact scientific study has shown clear evidence of global climate changes long before man existed. There are clear historical records of climate changes that far predate the industrial revolution. So why aren’t such grandiose ideas put to the same standard of proof?

Hawthorne on March 28, 2009 at 1:10 AM

If you phrase the question about God’s existence in the most general terms possible, I can see how I might not be sure about the answer. However, once you put some meat on, all ambivalence disappears. Christianity is false. Islam is false. Judaism is false. And ridiculous, too.

An even longer version would be that I agree with Sam Harris. There’s no non-astrologers. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is at the core of any rational argument. Claims that religions make are too grandiose, and the support for them is too laughable.

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 12:52 AM

I usually hate to wade into discussions about religious faith, but in the context of the current topic: leaving aside the unprovable truth or falsehood of any religious belief including atheism, the aspect of the Judeo-Christian tradition that sets it most clearly apart from Islam is the way it endorses behaviors most compatible with liberty, democracy, and technological advance.

Atheist philosophers who apply a lifetime of brainpower to reasoning out the principles of a moral society always seem to come up with most of the same things churches and synagogues have always taught. On the topic of abortion, I spent decades considering it, and eventually came to the same conclusion my local priest offered when I was eight years old.

While I’m not an atheist myself, I wouldn’t insist this is because the Judeo-Christian system is divinely inspired, but rather because it is fairly unique in promoting the concepts of responsibility and humility together. A Christian or Jew is taught that he has free will and is morally responsible for his choices in life, and also that he should be humble in respecting powers higher than himself. Of course, they are lessons often imperfectly learned, but through religion they were written into the base code of Western civilization. And while these principles are not entirely unique to Judeo-Christian teaching, it seems to me that no other faith tradition has quite managed the trick of mixing them together in such a potent combination – not to put down other religions, but the evolution of Western philosophy suggests something very special in man’s social evolution, and most of that evolution was nursed along by people of substantial religious faith.

Stated simply, the construction of an advanced and successful democracy does not require religious faith, but rather the humility to behave as if someone might be watching from on high… a behavioral shorthand for organizing one’s sense of duty to family, neighbors, and state, and keeping the state from dissolving into the arrogance and hubris that characterizes the avowedly anti-religious ruling party we have today. It seems like the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” types are always the ones who sign on to the trillion-dollar spending bills and huge government expansions, while the passionate pro-lifers also seem to be the folks who take all the amendments to the Constitution seriously, and don’t like the idea of the government pouncing on damaged industries and devouring them.

Doctor Zero on March 28, 2009 at 1:36 AM

There is indeed a great deal of difference. If you claim there is no God (an Atheist) then you are also a person of faith. It is literally impossible to prove that something does not exist.

No. People who think there is no celestial teapot orbiting around the Sun are not people of faith. This is ridiculous.

Just because something has not been found, does not mean that you have actually looked where you would find it. Saying God does not exist is a bit like saying that your car keys do not exist simply because you have lost them and cannot find them.

No. Saying my car keys don’t exist provided I saw them earlier is wrong precisely because I saw them earlier. If I have never seen car keys, it’s not possible to say they don’t exist. It’s the only rational default position.

When you understand this then you also need to understand that being an atheist then requires belief in something that cannot be proven, therefore it is a form of faith.

So what I fail to understand, is why one form of faith is given credence when another is not. Both sides of the argument are equally unprovable.

See above. Pay particular attention to the link.

As for the quote by Mr. Harris, I would ask why such things are not applied to issues such as man-made climate change. While we may have reasonable proof that there is indeed a climate change taking place, the evidence that it is man-made is tenuous at best. In fact scientific study has shown clear evidence of global climate changes long before man existed. There are clear historical records of climate changes that far predate the industrial revolution. So why aren’t such grandiose ideas put to the same standard of proof?

They are. The existence of global warming as well as humans’ contribution are well documented scientifically. On the other hand, crazy purely political ideas like “let’s kill American economy for the sake of penguins” are just that, crazy purely political ideas. They may be uttered often but they don’t appear in serious peer-reviewed journals, which is all that matters as far as science is concerned.

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 1:36 AM

I remember being a child looking up at the puffy clouds behind the tall oak’s leaves waving in the summer wind.

My mother’s yell carried across the field for me to come in for supper.

For some reason your post reminded me of this.

Thank you.

Saltysam on March 28, 2009 at 12:42 AM

I’m honored and humbled, my friend!

Doctor Zero on March 28, 2009 at 1:38 AM

Correction to the above: It’s not only possible to say they don’t exist. It’s the only rational position.

Now, Dr. Zero, you make a lot of claims that I find demonstrably false. I indeed don’t know how much I wanna type now particularly provided I live on the East Coast where it’s almost 2AM now.

In short, I don’t think there’s any evidence that “Judeo-Christian tradition” is what generates liberty, democracy or technological advance. There’s nothing in the Bible that says to me “free people”. When taken seriously, it instills nothing but a totalitarian mindset. A modern days Abraham caught in the Biblical circumstances and upon repeating the Biblical story verbatim about what was going on according to him, would be at best stripped of parental rights and at worst sentenced to a time in prison. We quite literally reject Biblical teachings, and I’d argue it’s a good thing.

Also, as I said earlier religion makes extraordinary claims about physics, cosmology, paleontology. Claims no scientist would dare make precisely because they are too arrogant. You can’t say you simply know the will of a creature responsible for the existence of the Universe. This isn’t a modest statement. This is extreme arrogance.

Finally, your “as if someone might be watching from on high” bit is a poetic way to say that people think there are moral laws. The existence of moral laws is in no way logically connected to the existence of a God, much less a Judeo-Christian one.

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 1:53 AM

Harry’s is the face of evil, if ever I’ve seen it. Just look at that mug shot.

ErinF on March 28, 2009 at 2:46 AM

radiofreevillage on March 28, 2009 at 1:53 AM

Your position has been refuted by historical scientific record. Throughout history we have found the existence of many things we cannot see. Did we dismiss concepts like radiation, atomic theory, quantum theory, black holes, etc simply because we could not see them? You claim to be a rational scientist, yet you quote this ridiculous idea of Bertrand Russell? If Bertrand Russell were alive I would invite him to hold a spent fuel rod from a nuclear reactor and deny that which was about to kill him simply because he could not see it.

It has taken millenia for us to develop the periodic table of elements. Are you prepared to say that because there is no proof of other elements at this time that none exist? Keep in mind that we seem to be adding new ones every decade or so.

Many of the elements that we have found recently are thought to be “man-made” but I am relatively sure that they have existed in our universe long before we created any of them here on Earth. They are just not created naturally in the environment that we have here. But are you prepared to say they do not exist naturally in the Sun or other celestial bodies?

Your position is not one of rational scientific thought. It is one of stodgy old political ideology. If you do not understand then read a little Freeman Dyson and learn to expand your thinking a bit. The Scientific Method at its core is about a process to prove that which we do not know.

You cannot possibly feel that you know all that there is to know or that you can predict what future discoveries may reveal. So categorically stating God does not exist is an arrogance. Since neither position is proven, neither has the advantage over the other.

The position by Bertrand Russell is what is commonly called sophistry. He talks a good game, but it does not stand the light of reason. Much of science is based on learning about things that we cannot see. Do we abandon the Large Hadron Collider project simply because we cannot see the Higgs Boson and are not really certain it actually exists?

OK, sure. Go ahead and find more philosophers that reinforce your self-imposed limitations on the nature of the universe. I will choose my faith and you can choose yours. I am convinced that my faith offers me much more peace and serenity than yours does.

Hawthorne on March 28, 2009 at 3:47 AM

So…just on a pure cost-effect measure, isn’t funding an abortion cheaper than funding welfare?

DeathToMediaHacks on March 28, 2009 at 7:20 AM

So…just on a pure cost-effect measure, isn’t funding an abortion cheaper than funding welfare?

Financially, so would killing people currently on welfare.

Morally, it’s an absolute “no-no.”

karl9000 on March 28, 2009 at 8:12 AM

I wonder how Harry’s mom would have voted?

Hopefully, for retroactive abortion…

karl9000 on March 28, 2009 at 8:15 AM

Federal funding for abortion??? Why dont we have federal funding for sterilizations? Forced sterilization is a great idea! Why not that?

I heard some states want to require welfare recipients to take drug tests. That would lower the welfare rolls considerably.

becki51758 on March 28, 2009 at 8:54 AM

KILLING BABIES IS JUST PLAIN WRONG.

Is there some kind of “green” global bullshit we could use against abortion? that would be f-ing golden.

UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on March 28, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Bet this makes all those Catholics who voted for Obama feel all warm and fuzzy. Hey, we were politically correct and self righteous voting for first African American President. So he’s an abortion miller and infanticidalist, so what, he’s the first African American President. He’s too big to fail.

eaglewingz08 on March 28, 2009 at 1:59 PM

Bet this makes all those Catholics who voted for Obama feel all warm and fuzzy.

eaglewingz08 on March 28, 2009 at 1:59 PM

You would have to omit Catholics that perform Examination of Conscience and Catholic Doctrine with the examination questions supplied by The Fathers of Mercy out of Auburn Kentucky.

Did I vote in accordance with a properly informed conscience, in a way consistent with the teachings of the Church, in regard to the sanctity of human life and human life issues?

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Did I vote in accordance with a properly informed conscience, in a way consistent with the teachings of the Church, in regard to the sanctity of human life and human life issues?

ericdijon on March 28, 2009 at 4:44 PM

It is not possible. One can BS all they want but they would only be lying to God and themselves. Interesting that social spending grew higher under Bush than under Clinton and both wars were to continue. So these so-called Catholics can take their BS into the confessional.

Jamson64 on March 28, 2009 at 7:54 PM

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