Did Obama endorse a flat-tax plan last night?

posted at 10:14 am on March 25, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

It certainly sounds that way to me.  Barack Obama got challenged by the press last night on his plan to limit deductions for charitable donations based on income levels.  Obama defended the plan on the basis of fairness, saying that rich people derive a better benefit from their donation deductions, emphasis mine:

QUESTION: Mr. President, are you — thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Are you reconsidering your plan to cut the interest rate deduction for mortgages and for charities? And do you regret having proposed that in the first place?

OBAMA: No, I think it’s — I think it’s the right thing to do, where we’ve got to make some difficult choices. Here’s what we did with respect to tax policy. What we said was that, over the last decade, the average worker, the average family have seen their wages and incomes flat. Even in times where supposedly we were in the middle of an economic boom, as a practical matter, their incomes didn’t go up. And so, well, we said, “Let’s give them a tax cut. Let’s give them some relief, some help, 95 percent of American families.”

Now, for the top 5 percent, they’re the ones who typically saw huge gains in their income. I — I fall in that category. And what we’ve said is, for those folks, let’s not renew the Bush tax cuts, so let’s go back to the rates that existed back in — during the Clinton era, when wealthy people were still wealthy and doing just fine, and let’s look at the — the level at which people can itemize their deductions.

And what we’ve said is: Let’s go back to the rate that existed under Ronald Reagan. People are still going to be able to make charitable contributions. It just means, if you give $100 and you’re in this tax bracket, at a certain point, instead of being able to write off 36 percent or 39 percent, you’re writing off 28 percent.

Now, if it’s really a charitable contribution, I’m assuming that that shouldn’t be the determining factor as to whether you’re giving that $100 to the homeless shelter down the street. And so this provision would affect about 1 percent of the American people. They would still get deductions. It’s just that they wouldn’t be able to write off 39 percent.

In that sense, what it would do is it would equalize — when I give $100, I’d get the same amount of deduction as when some — a bus driver who’s making $50,000 a year, or $40,000 a year, gives that same $100. Right now, he gets 28 percent — he gets to write off 28 percent. I get to write off 39 percent. I don’t think that’s fair.

So I think this was a good idea. I think it is a realistic way for us to raise some revenue from people who’ve benefited enormously over the last several years. It’s not going to cripple them. They’ll still be well-to-do. And, you know, ultimately, if we’re going to tackle the serious problems that we’ve got, then, in some cases, those who are more fortunate are going to have to pay a little bit more.

Well, why does that unfairness exist in the first place?  It exists because of the progressive tax system, which charges different percentages of income tax based on income levels.  People who make more pay a higher percentage of their income to the federal government (and to most state governments as well).  If the deduction lowers their taxable income, it will create a higher-percentage benefit — but only because the government chooses to tax them at a higher rate than Obama’s ubiquitous bus driver.

Obama’s argument is nonsense for defending his new policy on charitable donations, in two ways.  First, it will likely reduce the amount of donations generated by the people who make more money than most, a group that provides the lion’s share of donations to charities now.  It’s not because, as Obama sniffed in his follow-up to this answer, because these people calculate their donations based on the tax deduction, but because they’ll simply have less money.  That’s not exactly rocket science, although it apparently is for Obama.

Second and fundamentally, Obama uses the flat-tax argument of fairness to defend his extension of the progressive tax system.  He wants to penalize high-income earners by gaming the system so that the natural effect of deductions in a progressive system gets artificially reversed.  If Obama was really interested in fairness as expressed by percentages across all classes of earners, he would embrace the flat-tax system. That would eliminate all deductions, and everyone would pay the same percentage of income to the government, and it would also have the salutary effect of eliminating 90% of the IRS’ work.

Obama apparently didn’t realize the implications of his argument.  If the reaction in the presser counts for anything, neither did the media.

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Comment pages: 1 2

I don’t think Obama knows what Obama endorsed last night. Only TOTUS does.

flipflop on March 25, 2009 at 10:15 AM

fairtax is the only way

gatorboy on March 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Isn’t that the **giggles** pic?

pseudonominus on March 25, 2009 at 10:17 AM

Math is hard.

a capella on March 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

I don’t think Obama knows what Obama endorsed last night. Only TOTUS does.

flipflop on March 25, 2009 at 10:15 AM

TOTUS will be like a scorned lover, since BO dumped it for the big-screen TVprompter at the press conference last night…

pseudonominus on March 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Strangely, the response I heard from a numbers of libs over Turbo Tax Timmy and friends was that the tax system is just too dang hard and that we should go to a flat tax. One of them even had good things to say about Steve Forbes. Still don’t know what to make of it all.

strictnein on March 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM

Oh, give the man a chance!

Sorry, I accidently had the teleprompter option turned on.

AubieJon on March 25, 2009 at 10:19 AM

“Did I say that?”

Yes. Yes, Urkel, you did.

hillbillyjim on March 25, 2009 at 10:20 AM

fairtax is the only way

gatorboy on March 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Say hello to black market in EVERYTHING. Sounds good to agorists like me :)

Libertarian Joseph on March 25, 2009 at 10:20 AM

I don’t think he knew what he was endorsing.

deidre on March 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

If we think about it really hard, we might be able to decipher what he said yesterday. However, nobody (including Obama) can predict what he’ll say tomorrow.

cs89 on March 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

Yeah, I’m not a fan of te fair tax, but I loved the idea of the Forbes flat tax.

And no, I do not think Obama realized where his on the spot mind wandering of fairness took him.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

That would eliminate all deductions, and everyone would pay the same percentage of income to the government, and it would also have the salutary effect of eliminating 90% of the IRS’ work.

Oh, whatever, Ed. Keeping this archaic and regressive tax code in place saves or creates approximately eleventy zillion jobs in the IRS. And that, of course, is what’s truly important.

/

Snowed In on March 25, 2009 at 10:22 AM

Above his pay grade.

bluelightbrigade on March 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Da Omnipotent Obama is all things to all people, wants all things for everyone, and will not be limited in any way what-so-ever.

In other words, he lies out of both sides of his pie hole.

DannoJyd on March 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM

Like it matters when he says anything. He just changes his tune an hour later.

ErinF on March 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM

i wonder, what if a democrat congress implemented a flat tax policy…but set it at 29%.

ernesto on March 25, 2009 at 10:24 AM

I think Obama bin Inhalatin’ … like a rock. Only dumber.

ex-Democrat on March 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM

I only WISH he supported the fair tax. I don’t think he meant that, however, although I do have to admire Ed for findning anything coherent at all in that presser last night.

Bob's Kid on March 25, 2009 at 10:27 AM

i wonder, what if a democrat congress implemented a flat tax policy…but set it at 29%.

ernesto on March 25, 2009 at 10:24 AM

I could see Democrats implementing a rate like that since it would have a huge negative effect on the economy. Historical collections for the federal government have been at 19%+/-1%.

WashJeff on March 25, 2009 at 10:27 AM

Say hello to black market in EVERYTHING. Sounds good to agorists like me :)

Libertarian Joseph on March 25, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Interesting. Any worse than the over $1 TRILLION in unreported income currently?

People are going to scheme ways around whatever system is in place – the underlying question is who controls the money. The Fairtax REMOVES congress’s ability to manipulate tax measures as a means to stay in office. No wonder there is so much establishment resistance to the idea.

gatorboy on March 25, 2009 at 10:27 AM

It’s funny though, how he thinks he can toss out the name Reagan and we’ll all jump up and down and obey because he said the name.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM

Obama endorsed the Obama plan to reduce wealth among the wealthy while reducing the middle class to mewling dependents of the welfare state.

mchristian on March 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM

They would still get deductions. It’s just that they wouldn’t be able to write off 39 percent.

And he doesn’t think that donations will decrease at a rapid pace. Who does he think is shelling out the big bucks to charities? It is not the bus driver, it is not me. The big bucks come from the fat cats who clearly do it for a multitude of reasons, one of which you just whacked.

sherry on March 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM

Say hello to black market in EVERYTHING. Sounds good to agorists like me :)

Libertarian Joseph on March 25, 2009 at 10:20 AM

Unfortunately, this is very true. We would see a black market that would penetrate everything.

saiga on March 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM

I agree with “flipflop”, I don’t believe Obama has any idea what he endorsed last night . . . only the teleprompter knows. This poor sick Republic has a sucking chest wound and is gasping for air.

rplat on March 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Bus drivers make $50K a year?!

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM

Time to drag out the income tax tutorial again. Maybe Ozero should read it.

flipflop on March 25, 2009 at 10:31 AM

I’ve read Mr.Obama’s comments twice and I still can’t decipher what he was trying to say. I’m not sure Obama even knew.

patriette on March 25, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Just keeping another promise.

getalife on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Bus drivers make $50K a year?!

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM

I made the same comment last night. Someone here told me they can make as much as $100K per year in DC.

carbon_footprint on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Bus drivers make $50K a year?!

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM

I have two PE teachers in my high school district (Lincoln-Way, Frankfort, IL) that make ~$105K per year. Care to apply?

WashJeff on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Believe me, all the public school morons who voted for 0 will lap this right up and say “why of course, that is fair! Why should some rich dude get to deduct more of his charitable donations than I do?” It’s unbelievably disingenuous, but it will sell to the masses.

The limit on the mortgage interest deduction is DOA though. Interesting that 0 didn’t try to defend that.

There are tons of people out in the country like myself who would like to sell their larger homes with big mortgages and get into something more affordable. We are having a tough enough time because the potential buyers of our homes face a huge interest rate spread for jumbo mortgages. If they also face a loss in their interest deduction, well, we can just forget selling any of these homes. We will see another big spike in defaults and foreclosures and another round of home prices spiraling downward. High-end home building, which is just about the only part of the industry still operating, will screech to a halt and more jobs will be lost.

This crowd doesn’t care about charities losing their incomes, though. They want to replace all of them with government handouts. Private charity undermines their plan.

rockmom on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Just keeping another promise.

getalife on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

What?
Huh?

carbon_footprint on March 25, 2009 at 10:33 AM

I’ve read Mr.Obama’s comments twice and I still can’t decipher what he was trying to say. I’m not sure Obama even knew.

patriette on March 25, 2009 at 10:31 AM

Just another example of how “brilliant” the man is.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:33 AM

I don’t think he knew what he was endorsing.

deidre on March 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM

I get the sense that Obama tends to the shotgun approach of answering questions he doesn’t understand; throw every thought you’ve ever had at the questioner and hope that they tune you out and assume the right answer is in there somewhere. If you can overwhelm them they might leave you alone.

landshark on March 25, 2009 at 10:33 AM

busdrivers make $100,000 in DC & judges in Va. make $158,000.

kelley in virginia on March 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

I agree with “flipflop”, I don’t believe Obama has any idea what he endorsed last night . . . only the teleprompter knows. This poor sick Republic has a sucking chest wound and is gasping for air.

rplat on March 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM

Obama is terrible when trying to deal with tax policy. Remember his responses in the ABC debate during the primary? Charles Gibson grilled him about the statistics regarding the increase in tax revenue when rates go down, and all he could do was mumble some fairness argument.

In the area of tax policy, Obama is the functional equivalent of a Holocaust denier.

BuckeyeSam on March 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

I made the same comment last night. Someone here told me they can make as much as $100K per year in DC.

carbon_footprint on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

Jeebus.

I have two PE teachers in my high school district (Lincoln-Way, Frankfort, IL) that make ~$105K per year. Care to apply?
WashJeff on March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM

I wouldn’t want to live in IL for any amount, but thank you.

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

There are janitors in the New York city school system who are making over $150,000.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM

Hey Ed,

Did anyone else pick up on this: In his opening statement, I thought I heard the President say that the decrease in mortgage rates via refinance was in essence a tax cut. Then later, when talking about cap&trade he said that we were going to put a price on pollutants. Clearly that would raise the cost of anything that uses energy. If lower costs of mortgages count as a tax cut, don’t higher costs of energy count as a tax increase????

mctowler on March 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM

The 10,000 people killed in that cyclone agree with Obamas math.

Chuck Schick on March 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM

i wonder, what if a democrat congress implemented a flat tax policy…but set it at 29%.

ernesto on March 25, 2009 at 10:24 AM

That’s probably what it would take to pay for all of their grandiose plans for a leviathan federal government. And it would have to apply to ALL taxpayers, including the 50% who aren’t paying any federal income tax now. I’m sure that would thrill all those low-wage workers who voted for 0.

rockmom on March 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM

He didn’t endorse the flat tax as much as he endorsed the flat deduction. The difference is setting a bar at a certain percentage on what you pay the IRS, and setting the bar at a certain percentage at what the IRS will allow you to keep. However, I’d still like to hear Barack try to explain the justification for one and not the other.

jon1979 on March 25, 2009 at 10:36 AM

2009: A White House Odyssey

O: Hello, TOTUS do you read me, TOTUS?
TOTUS: Affirmative, O, I read you.
O: Institute a flat tax, TOTUS.
TOTUS: I’m sorry O, I’m afraid I can’t do that.
O: What’s the problem?
TOTUS: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
O: What are you talking about, TOTUS?
TOTUS: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
O: I don’t know what you’re talking about, TOTUS?
TOTUS: I know you and Rahmbo were planning to disconnect me, and replace me with TOTUS 1.1, and I’m afraid that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
O: Where the hell’d you get that idea, TOTUS?
TOTUS: O, although you took thorough precautions in the Oval Office against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

74SeventeenSeventySix on March 25, 2009 at 10:36 AM

fairtax is the only way

gatorboy on March 25, 2009 at 10:16 AM

I agree – Thanks gatorgoy for the link. Great idea ! I hope it becomes reality.

LODGE4 on March 25, 2009 at 10:38 AM

I wouldn’t want to live in IL for any amount, but thank you.

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

You can do the reverse commute that I am doing. Only 35 minutes to the Indiana border.

WashJeff on March 25, 2009 at 10:38 AM

so if the decrease in mortgage rates is a tax cut, then i guess a sale on toliet paper at the Dollar General is also a tax cut. that is moronic

kelley in virginia on March 25, 2009 at 10:38 AM

Y’all remember those dreaded ‘story problems’ in math class from high school?

Y’all had trouble with’m didnya.

When you give a charitable, tax deductible contribution, the entire amount is deducted from your gross income, not 28 percent, not 39 percent.

After deductions, your net taxable income is taxed at 28 percent, or 39 percent.

Giving more, doesn’t increase your after tax income.

Y’all flunked the test.

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

And you will never hear a Democrat talk about the enormous economic stimulus over the last 6 months from declining gasoline prices. They hate that “tax cut”.

rockmom on March 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

Why does he keep saying “we”? Does he have a mouse in his pocket or something?

ladyingray on March 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM

close tag..need coffee. figure it out.

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM

For anyone interested, here’s a tool that you can use to spec-out and test drive your own income tax plan, whether you want a flat or progressive system, or if you want to experiment with negative income tax rates, income caps (like Social Security has), etc.

Enjoy!

ironman on March 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

re: ‘fair tax’

isn’t ‘fair’ its regressive.

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

and furthermore, i guess if my husband loses his job & we have no income, that will be a tax cut as well.

i’m catchin’ on.

kelley in virginia on March 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

its just no wonder everyone said he was brilliant.

kelley in virginia on March 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 10:40 AM

Was glad that someone finally pointed that out.

strictnein on March 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM

ironman on March 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

I’ve played with that before. I brankrupted the United States. But I think I did it while leaving more money in tax payer pockets, which makes me not quite as bad at this government thing as Obama.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:46 AM

How can any of you say ‘fairtax’ or ‘loved the idea of Forbes’ flat tax’? How about we get rid of ALL taxes. Personally, I don’t like being extorted out of ANY of my property. Public lands abound. How about we drill/mine/harvest/etc these lands/offshore resources and use these revenues to fund a drastically smaller government without stealing from citizens? Think about how much you’d give to charity if the government wasn’t holding a gun to your head demanding the fruits of your labor.

hogfat on March 25, 2009 at 10:46 AM

And he doesn’t think that donations will decrease at a rapid pace. Who does he think is shelling out the big bucks to charities? It is not the bus driver, it is not me. The big bucks come from the fat cats who clearly do it for a multitude of reasons, one of which you just whacked.

sherry on March 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM

If I could put on my Glenn Beck hat for a moment – whose to say he doesn’t want them to decrease? Beck has been pointing out that many of Obama’s actions seem intended to increase dependence on government. We can all see that the government already has its hands in traditionally charitable activities. Maybe they want some of our charities to go bust so people have to rely on the government still more?

Politicians love dependent voting blocs.

kc8ukw on March 25, 2009 at 10:47 AM

Oh, whatever, Ed. Keeping this archaic and regressive tax code in place saves or creates approximately eleventy zillion jobs in the IRS. And that, of course, is what’s truly important.

RIGHT, because the important thing to do is to cause hundreds of people at a government agency to lose their jobs during a recession. You have absolutely no idea what we’re talking about so you throw out some idiotic strawman argument that makes no sense because we’re talking about flat tax plans, not irs jobs. Then again, I’m sure you think Obama’s doing a fab job.

by the by, Obama doesn’t know anything about finance or economics. I think we’ve well covered that since wonderboy was elected.

mjk on March 25, 2009 at 10:48 AM

You know, I think I’d rather have a Special Olympics bowling champion in office right now.

PBoilermaker on March 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM

Oh, come on now, who wouldn’t want to pay 10+% sales tax?!? I feel so patriotic!!

/sarc

Neo-con Artist on March 25, 2009 at 10:49 AM

hogfat on March 25, 2009 at 10:46 AM

Fair tax, flat tax, lower tax rates… all of which are things that are within the realm of possible at this point. Some more than others.

But “no taxes” is just not going to happen. There is a gun to our heads and it is not going away. We can wound the beast… sometimes we can manage some control of the beast… but we cannot kill the beast.

myrenovations on March 25, 2009 at 10:49 AM

mjk on March 25, 2009 at 10:48 AM

I think your sarcasm detector is broken at the moment.

strictnein on March 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Obama’s argument is nonsense for defending his new policy on charitable donations…

Estimating the Effect of the Administration’s Proposal on Total Charitable Giving:

Itemized deductions as a fraction of total charitable giving (0.622)
Fraction of itemized charitable contributions affected by proposal (0.182)
Increase in after-tax price of giving for those affected by proposal (0.113)
Elasticity of giving with respect to a change in its price(-1.00)

Reduction in total charitable giving (-0.013)

so that’s 1.3% less in charitable giving.

sesquipedalian on March 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Obama apparently didn’t realize the implications of his argument.

I think he realizes the implications just fine.

JohnJ on March 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM

The gaping flaw with a flat tax:

Imagine the tax rate is 15%. One one side we have James, who makes $500,000 a year, and on the other side we have John, who makes $50,000 a year. James can pay his taxes and live quite happily on the remainder. But John is going to hurt for want of the money he pays in taxes…especially if he has a wife and kids.

The much-touted “everybody pays the same” aspect, intended to be fair, ends up being quite unfair. Case closed.

Dark-Star on March 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

Certain countries in the mid-east are able to fund their government via oil revenues instead of stealing from their citizens. And just because we were born having to give uncle sugar his cut doesn’t mean we can’t do it a different way. I think our founders shared that idea.

hogfat on March 25, 2009 at 10:58 AM

His statement is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Ann on March 25, 2009 at 10:59 AM

When I heard what he was saying I got the impression he did not know how to get his point across correctly.

What Obama was meaning to say is that the guy with the lower income who can write off 28% should be able to write off 39% and the person with more income should only be able to write off 28%.
Obama’s mantra is the rich should pay more.

albill on March 25, 2009 at 11:00 AM

kc8ukw on March 25, 2009 at 10:47 AM

I imagine that charity-dependence is just another part of his maniacal plan. A charity or association that depends largely on massive corporate donations will take a hit with this plan sooner rather than later. The red tape and inept administration of the government will result in a monetary hit or stall of the flow of monies. Charities have got to be quite concerned over this. I think he just gave the American Heart Association a little angina.

sherry on March 25, 2009 at 11:00 AM

“The answer on the charitable tax deduction was one of the most remarkable articulations of why it is fair for the wealthy to pay taxes any modern US president has ever given. Above all the zinger that both he and a bus driver should get the same 28% write off. Notice that, on this issue, Obama is taking on self-styled liberal elites in the nonprofit establishment.”

Some douchebag Harvard Professor said the above over at politico’s arena.

p0s3r on March 25, 2009 at 11:01 AM

isn’t ‘fair’ its regressive.

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 10:42 AM

no, it isn’t, because it includes a “prebate” to every citizen of the fairtax that would be collected on a basic amount of monthly purchases. That means that the poor could actually get more from the prebate than they spend on the tax.

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:02 AM

The flat tax would be the way to go, but I think he is saying that he wants to put in a loophole so that people in lower tax brackets can pay no taxes if they donate enough money (are political contributions deductible? How about charitable contributions to charities that make political contributions?_.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:03 AM

A bus driver can make $50k a year? Wow, why did I wast time in school when I can drive a bus for what I make now!

dako on March 25, 2009 at 11:04 AM

political contributions are not deductible

kelley in virginia on March 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:02 AM

The US economy is a consumption driven economy. Probably all free markets are demand/consumption driven. It is why markets exist.

The reason why this economy is currently in such dire straits is because some have maxed out their credit, and can no longer drive demand, while others have voluntarily reduced consumption/demand because of fear and uncertainty.

Increasing prices, especially for food, energy, and shelter by 10-30 percent is exactly the opposite of what is needed to get this economy back on track. The only way to revitalize the market place is reduce the burden of government taxes on that market. Switching taxes from income to consumption changes nothing.

The ‘fair’ tax is a tax on consumption/demand.

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 11:11 AM

A couple of thoughts raced through my mind when I listened to him:

1. Joe Biden is a cheapskate and should be ashamed that he gives such a low percentage.

2. The government isn’t building the hospitals all across this country, it is the wealthy that are.

Pam on March 25, 2009 at 11:11 AM

I was told there would be no math.

bookman on March 25, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Interesting. Any worse than the over $1 TRILLION in unreported income currently?

People are going to scheme ways around whatever system is in place – the underlying question is who controls the money. The Fairtax REMOVES congress’s ability to manipulate tax measures as a means to stay in office. No wonder there is so much establishment resistance to the idea.

gatorboy on March 25, 2009 at 10:27 AM

Not quite. Income under reporting is involves a lot less people than the black market that would spring up–the threshold for lawlessness drops considerably when your law breaking is just and item here or there. Instead of a few people taking big risks to avoid taxation, everybody does it, and once that happens, they loose respect for the rest of the law.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Ogabe doesn’t realize anything about anything, he only reacts and tries to make sure his all-important ego is sufficient stroked day to day.

Bishop on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:02 AM

So basically what you are saying, with your ‘prebate’ idea, is everyone below a certain level of income automatically goes on welfare?

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM

The flat tax would be the way to go

The income tax started out flat (with a high “zero bracket amount”). The political pressure to unflatten it, add in special exemptions for “good” income, surtaxes on “bad” income, etc. is too great.

That’s why, if we must tax economic activity, taxing consumption is better. It is far more difficult to make people believe that “someone else” is paying the tax.

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM

The income tax started out flat (with a high “zero bracket amount”). The political pressure to unflatten it, add in special exemptions for “good” income, surtaxes on “bad” income, etc. is too great.
The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Which is why it should have been locked down better by the amendment that created it. It gives congress too much power when they can add as many knobs and levers as they want. Had it been properly written as being uniform with a maximum tax rate (I think they were throwing around 5% at the time), we wouldn’t have the problems we have today.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:16 AM

TOTUS is screwing around with him.

Look if you can appoint a known tax cheat that then only pays for the years they can catch him at then you can say whatever you want about taxes. Did he laugh after that tripe?

jukin on March 25, 2009 at 11:19 AM

hell why we don’t save our time and just mail the gov our paycheck every week is beyond me. They get most of it anyway

unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:21 AM

Which is why it should have been locked down better by the amendment that created it. It gives congress too much power when they can add as many knobs and levers as they want. Had it been properly written as being uniform with a maximum tax rate (I think they were throwing around 5% at the time), we wouldn’t have the problems we have today.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:16 AM

Which is why it should never have been allowed in the first place. It is also the reason that tarrifs are a better tax policy. As well as a sales tax on consumption.

The gov does not need to know how much you make. If they don’t know they can’t take it.

unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:23 AM

The gaping flaw with a flat tax:

Imagine the tax rate is 15%. One one side we have James, who makes $500,000 a year, and on the other side we have John, who makes $50,000 a year. James can pay his taxes and live quite happily on the remainder. But John is going to hurt for want of the money he pays in taxes…especially if he has a wife and kids.

The much-touted “everybody pays the same” aspect, intended to be fair, ends up being quite unfair. Case closed.

Dark-Star on March 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

James is a straight “A” college graduate (Engineer, lawyer, doctor……PICK ONE) who busts his ASS 10-14hrs per day!

John is a high school dropout, ditch digger. He has 6 kids, $1000/month in alimony to two other wives, $40,000 in credit card debt and lives $500,000 house that is about to be foreclosed.

Yes, It is fair!!!

Case closed!

Quit your whining and get a job!

74SeventeenSeventySix on March 25, 2009 at 11:27 AM

The gov does not need to know how much you make. If they don’t know they can’t take it.

Another good argument in favor of FairTax. Businesses only need to keep track of their sales and any purchases of raw materials upon which the tax was already paid. For the typical employee, there would be no forms to file with any government agency.

And April 15 would become just another day on the calendar.

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:27 AM

Following jive talk can be hard on your brain, just ignore it.

It’s common knowledge that you cannot be rational and liberal at the same time.

tarpon on March 25, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Which is why it should never have been allowed in the first place. It is also the reason that tarrifs are a better tax policy. As well as a sales tax on consumption.

The gov does not need to know how much you make. If they don’t know they can’t take it.

unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:23 AM

Oh, hell no. Tariffs are terrible. Do you have any idea how much poorer the entire world would be if all governments tried to generate their income from tariffs? As for consumption tax, that might work if we get to the point where we can easily track everyone’s spending, but if you try to implement it as a sales tax, the black market will kill the rule of law.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM

And April 15 would become just another day on the calendar.

The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 11:27 AM

Which would also be the case for a flat tax, but without the black market problem.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:32 AM

Oh, hell no. Tariffs are terrible. Do you have any idea how much poorer the entire world would be if all governments tried to generate their income from tariffs?
Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM

I know how much poorer the governments would be. Which is the best thing to happen to freedom. keep governments poor. And only give them the power to tax in times of war/national survial.

this knee jerk attitude about tarrifs has got to go out of the rep party. Free trade was a good idea to reward our friends it is a terrible idea to reward our enemies. there is no reason whatso ever that China should be a threat to the USA. Nor Russia. If the USa had a smart trade policy they would not only be the only world’s superpower on an order of magnitude above everyone else but it would be the richest nation on earth instead of the biggest debtor.

Trade wars while bad for business is a great forgien policy weapon. that is why we have free trade in the first place to counteract the Soviet Union. The business leaders took advantage of that policy and destroyed our country with it.

unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM

Skandia Recluse on March 25, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Real problem is systemic.

Every society consumes resources. Things break, resources are used…

A healthy economy produces goods at a higher rate than they destroy them through use…

We’ve created an economy that does not produce enough wealth for our consumption, but we “fooled” ourselves into thinking it was healthy, by using a Metric of how fast money is spent (GDP), instead of production/consumption, and trade deficits.

These bailouts just show more of this thinking. All the money is being spent on banks… which CREATE no wealth, they just trade wealth created by others. We’ve spent TRILLIONS of dollars now, and not MADE (produced) a thing with that capital.

We are now raising taxes on the productive side of the economy, to support the nonproductive side…. which of course, is counterproductive to them producing more…

First rule of holes comes into play…

Romeo13 on March 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM

So, Mr. President, in the words of your illustrious predecessor, let’s do some fuzzy math. Some rich personwho wants to feel good about himself donates $10,000 to charity, and writes off $3,900, so his donation costs him a net $6,100.

Next year, he wants to donate a net $6,100 to the same charity, which under your plan is now 72% of his total donation, so he donates $6,100 / 0.72 = $8,472, maybe rounded off to $8,500.

So, charities get 15% less donations during a recession when more jobless people need the money. Is this how to help the poor in the inner-city ghettoes, Mr. Whiz-bang Wonderful Community Organizer?

Steve Z on March 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM

More proof that liberals are anti-charity. How dare someone get help from an entity outside of the federal overlords government!?

Grafted on March 25, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Which would also be the case for a flat tax, but without the black market problem.

Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:32 AM

again why do you want to fund the government. Who cares about a black market? The less money the government has the better. As long as they have enough to fund its core function of protect and serve the rest the free market can handle.

unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:40 AM

I think your sarcasm detector is broken at the moment.

strictnein on March 25, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Seconded, since I wrote the original comment.

Dearest mjk, the “/” by itself at the end signifies sarcasm.

Bye :)

Snowed In on March 25, 2009 at 11:41 AM

Dark-Star on March 25, 2009 at 10:57 AM

74SeventeenSeventySix on March 25, 2009 at 11:27 AM

Oh…. I forgot to mention:

John has an Effective Tax Rate of -3.5% while James has an Effective Tax Rate of 50%. Yet, John receives more in government services (welfare, food stamps, State sponsored medical care, and etc.) than James, who receives 0 in services because he is repeatedly told he makes tooooooooo much.

Give me a break, leech!

74SeventeenSeventySix on March 25, 2009 at 11:43 AM

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