Did Obama endorse a flat-tax plan last night?
posted at 10:14 am on March 25, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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It certainly sounds that way to me. Barack Obama got challenged by the press last night on his plan to limit deductions for charitable donations based on income levels. Obama defended the plan on the basis of fairness, saying that rich people derive a better benefit from their donation deductions, emphasis mine:
QUESTION: Mr. President, are you — thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Are you reconsidering your plan to cut the interest rate deduction for mortgages and for charities? And do you regret having proposed that in the first place?
OBAMA: No, I think it’s — I think it’s the right thing to do, where we’ve got to make some difficult choices. Here’s what we did with respect to tax policy. What we said was that, over the last decade, the average worker, the average family have seen their wages and incomes flat. Even in times where supposedly we were in the middle of an economic boom, as a practical matter, their incomes didn’t go up. And so, well, we said, “Let’s give them a tax cut. Let’s give them some relief, some help, 95 percent of American families.”
Now, for the top 5 percent, they’re the ones who typically saw huge gains in their income. I — I fall in that category. And what we’ve said is, for those folks, let’s not renew the Bush tax cuts, so let’s go back to the rates that existed back in — during the Clinton era, when wealthy people were still wealthy and doing just fine, and let’s look at the — the level at which people can itemize their deductions.
And what we’ve said is: Let’s go back to the rate that existed under Ronald Reagan. People are still going to be able to make charitable contributions. It just means, if you give $100 and you’re in this tax bracket, at a certain point, instead of being able to write off 36 percent or 39 percent, you’re writing off 28 percent.
Now, if it’s really a charitable contribution, I’m assuming that that shouldn’t be the determining factor as to whether you’re giving that $100 to the homeless shelter down the street. And so this provision would affect about 1 percent of the American people. They would still get deductions. It’s just that they wouldn’t be able to write off 39 percent.
In that sense, what it would do is it would equalize — when I give $100, I’d get the same amount of deduction as when some — a bus driver who’s making $50,000 a year, or $40,000 a year, gives that same $100. Right now, he gets 28 percent — he gets to write off 28 percent. I get to write off 39 percent. I don’t think that’s fair.
So I think this was a good idea. I think it is a realistic way for us to raise some revenue from people who’ve benefited enormously over the last several years. It’s not going to cripple them. They’ll still be well-to-do. And, you know, ultimately, if we’re going to tackle the serious problems that we’ve got, then, in some cases, those who are more fortunate are going to have to pay a little bit more.
Well, why does that unfairness exist in the first place? It exists because of the progressive tax system, which charges different percentages of income tax based on income levels. People who make more pay a higher percentage of their income to the federal government (and to most state governments as well). If the deduction lowers their taxable income, it will create a higher-percentage benefit — but only because the government chooses to tax them at a higher rate than Obama’s ubiquitous bus driver.
Obama’s argument is nonsense for defending his new policy on charitable donations, in two ways. First, it will likely reduce the amount of donations generated by the people who make more money than most, a group that provides the lion’s share of donations to charities now. It’s not because, as Obama sniffed in his follow-up to this answer, because these people calculate their donations based on the tax deduction, but because they’ll simply have less money. That’s not exactly rocket science, although it apparently is for Obama.
Second and fundamentally, Obama uses the flat-tax argument of fairness to defend his extension of the progressive tax system. He wants to penalize high-income earners by gaming the system so that the natural effect of deductions in a progressive system gets artificially reversed. If Obama was really interested in fairness as expressed by percentages across all classes of earners, he would embrace the flat-tax system. That would eliminate all deductions, and everyone would pay the same percentage of income to the government, and it would also have the salutary effect of eliminating 90% of the IRS’ work.
Obama apparently didn’t realize the implications of his argument. If the reaction in the presser counts for anything, neither did the media.
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Trade wars just make everyone poor (kind of like communism).
Law enforcement and the military, mostly, though other things also matter. Just because our government has gone overboard doesn’t me it doesn’t have a purpose. If you were trying to fund these things through tariffs, you would kill trade and any petty dictator who did tax income could roll right over your pathetic army and take all of your stuff.
Its all about being competitive, man.
Count to 10 on March 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM
If there were such a thing as an elected (R) we would be using this argument to promote a flat tax. But no the GOP is asleeep at the wheel.
When I die I want to go peacefule in my sleep like my Grandfather. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car while he was driving.
lwssdd on March 25, 2009 at 11:50 AM
We are now raising taxes on the productive side of the economy, to support the nonproductive side…. which of course, is counterproductive to them producing more…
First rule of holes comes into play…
Romeo13 on March 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM
A real stimulus would have been if the gov took that $2 Trillion dollars and paid GM, F, and Chrysler to produce a stripped down hybrid for everyone old enough to drive. It would have put the upper midwest back to work, it would save the avg family a car payment, reduce our dependency on forgien energy, decreased family fuel budgets, decrease or trade defiect, produce markets for upgrades of the basic car model. It would stimulate the insurance industry, filled state coffers with the registration fees and inscpection fees.
By reducing the family car budget you are in effect giving every americian a pay raise thereby stimulating more consupmtion of other goods.
One car one time and then the gov gets out of the idustry. Every person that has a social security # and is old enough gets a car. This would also make rounding up illegal immigrates easier since they would not be able to get a car and would have to drive other vechiles and the police could be on the look out for those.
It would have some unintedned consequesse like the auto repair business would go thru a tough time, used car dealers would be hit hard too but after the first year or so those industries would be ok as people upgrade or fix their cars (since they are made by the gov you know they will break)
while not a great fix it is a hell of alot better then throwing trillions at the elites (I mean banks) so they can maintian their lifestyles.
but with the liberal policy of FDIC the gov really had no choice they would have had to pay trillions either way
unseen on March 25, 2009 at 11:51 AM
Flat Tax – YES!!!
DL13 on March 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Trade wars just make everyone poor (kind of like communism).
If done right trade wars make your enemies poor like we did to the soviet union. we had a trade war with USSR and CUBA for alomst 50 years and it destroyed them.
i would much rather have an economic war betwqeen enemies then a nuclear exchange.
As far as funding a gov. You have 33% going to interest on the debt, 33% to social welfare programs like medicare and social security and 33% to the armed forces. with about 1-2% going to everything else. That means that you could get along and be a superpower on 66% less than what the gov is spending now. Which could be well funded by tarrifs. while trade with you friends is a plus trade with your eneimes is a net neg. We are killing ourselves by trading with China. Increased trade also uses more resources which pushes the cost of those resources. Tarriffs are not an evil they are simply a tool. How you use that tools determines its usefulness. Our free trade policy has been a failure on every level. It has taken us from the biggest lender nation to the biggest debtor nation, it has weakened demand at home by outsourcing jobs. It has made corpations extremly wealthy which they have used to buy uor government. It has entangled us in world wide treaties that have caused us to lose much of our national idenity and our ability to control our borders.
But you know it has reduced prices so it must be good /scar
unseen on March 25, 2009 at 12:00 PM
If BHO would endore a “flat tax” plan, it would be at 100%!
GFW on March 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM
President Obama said that it is the wealthy that get a benefit from the deduction. No Mr. President, it isn’t the wealthy that get the benefit, it’s the people who the charity serves who get the benefit. I am surprise how no commentator has made this explicit.
jerryofva on March 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM
How so? It would still be the deadline for everyone to file forms with the IRS declaring their income.
There is no more reason to think there will be a black market problem with sales taxes than with income taxes. In fact, because the agencies charged with collecting those taxes need not concern themselves with people who sell nothing but their services, far less resources can be used to ensure compliance than under our current, far more intrusive, scheme.
The Monster on March 25, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Obama wants to eliminate charitable giving so everybody will dependent on the government. This is the thin edge of the wedge.
gridlock2 on March 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Yeah that would be nice, but then you shatter all those DOT budgets that rely on gasoline taxes.
We’ll just have to raise taxes all around for the common good.
thequeball on March 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM
Are you Kidding,
The US Government will never get rid of the IRS or the current tax code. Too much Power would be lost
Burgher on March 25, 2009 at 12:36 PM
I’m surprised he is even willing to let the “rich” deduct anything.
TexAz on March 25, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Yeah that would be nice, but then you shatter all those DOT budgets that rely on gasoline taxes.
We’ll just have to raise taxes all around for the common good.
thequeball on March 25, 2009 at 12:35 PM
state could increase the registration fees to make up some of the shortfall. or the federal gov could take some of that $2 trillion and make up the difference in black grants to the states. The gasoline tax only brings in several billion it is not like it is a major tax for the state. most states use it to fund their road programs so they can use the other tax money for social programs the states would be able to readjust some expenditures.
This is all dictated on the thought that the gov wants to help instead that they want more power.
unseen on March 25, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Oh, please, Ed. He will never knowingly endorse a flat tax. If he did, how could he demagogue the “95% of working families” bit?
Kafir on March 25, 2009 at 1:17 PM
One of the great things about HA and Michelle’s site is the open thread during this type of speech. It’s much more calming to pan down the threads to see what he said than to have to listen to the speech itself. Thanks for the great comments, all!
Christian Conservative on March 25, 2009 at 1:17 PM
Why not just increase the tax on fuel a bit and hike the fees as well? My point was more sarcasm than any real solid commentary.
So, I get what you’re saying, but my real point was that it would just be another opportunity to raise taxes because of the budget shortfall; or the budget problem could be used as a reason to avoid supporting the plan.
thequeball on March 25, 2009 at 1:36 PM
thequeball on March 25, 2009 at 1:36 PM
ponit taken. My thrust was that there are many many other ways that the gov “could” stimulate the economy that might actually work instead of what they have been doing. Personally I am not for any stimulus. I think recessions are a needed part of a capitalistic system that gets rid of the deadwood and the stupid people that can not handle capital.
unseen on March 25, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Not to mention that the government will only get an additional $1 for every nearly $2.50 or so that charities lose…
DaveS on March 25, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Great Hollow Man.
In effect raising taxes on charitable giving.
S**t, next he’ll cut taxes on cigarettes.
Sapwolf on March 25, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Not bad… but my idea?
Use the money to LOAN, at 0%, to any real business with a reasonable business plan…
And NOT to banks!
Right now the Fed lends to banks at essentialy 0% interest, who then make money off it…. but are not lending to people trying to get capital to make money.
Have the Federal Government quit being an enabler of Rich Bankers, and be the enabler of the Capitalist who wants to BUILD somthing…
Of course, we’d have to get the environmentalists out of the way…
Romeo13 on March 25, 2009 at 2:52 PM
a flat tax would be great but don’t delude yourself into thinking it will put the irs out of business.
most of the IRS’s tax code answers the question of “what is income?” whether you are paying 90% rate or 10% rate, the definition of income remains.
Seven Seas on March 25, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Barry Obama admits that Bush’s tax cuts made him wealthier?! WTF?! Curses to you, George W. Bush…curses!
Wyznowski on March 25, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Exhibit A on why it will never happen.
Hawkins1701 on March 25, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Ed,
Thanks for bringing this story out. I wish that somebody could force The Precedent, or one of his comrades, to go into much more detail on what he meant – which would inevitably lead to a long (perhaps, record-breaking) sequence of “uh”s, “um”s, and “er”s. This instance serves as a perfect example of how the left tries to steal legitimate arguments and, after some mind-boggling twisting and perversion of contexts, abuse them to serve leftist purposes.
progressoverpeace on March 25, 2009 at 6:12 PM
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