Chaput scolds American Catholics and the church
posted at 12:21 pm on March 22, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Archbishop Charles Chaput has become one of the most outspoken advocates for American Catholics in the last few years, but now he trains his rhetorical and teaching skills on the church itself and its members. Chaput decries the state of Catholic education that has allowed people to fundamentally misunderstand their own faith, and scolds the church for allowing itself to become more concerned with membership than truth. The consequences of the failure can be seen all around us, Chaput says:
Having been asked to examine what November 2008 and its aftermath can teach Catholics about American culture, the state of American Catholicism and the kind of Pauline discipleship necessary today, Archbishop Chaput said:
“November showed us that 40 years of American Catholic complacency and poor formation are bearing exactly the fruit we should have expected. Or to put it more discreetly, the November elections confirmed a trend, rather than created a new moment, in American culture.”
Noting that there was no question about President Barack Obama’s views on abortion “rights,” embryonic stem cell research and other “problematic issues,” he commented:
“Some Catholics in both political parties are deeply troubled by these issues. But too many Catholics just don’t really care. That’s the truth of it. If they cared, our political environment would be different. If 65 million Catholics really cared about their faith and cared about what it teaches, neither political party could ignore what we believe about justice for the poor, or the homeless, or immigrants, or the unborn child. If 65 million American Catholics really understood their faith, we wouldn’t need to waste each other’s time arguing about whether the legalized killing of an unborn child is somehow ‘balanced out’ or excused by three other good social policies.”
Offering a sober evaluation of the state of American Catholicism, he added:
“We need to stop over-counting our numbers, our influence, our institutions and our resources, because they’re not real. We can’t talk about following St. Paul and converting our culture until we sober up and get honest about what we’ve allowed ourselves to become. We need to stop lying to each other, to ourselves and to God by claiming to ‘personally oppose’ some homicidal evil — but then allowing it to be legal at the same time.”
Commenting on society’s attitude towards Catholic beliefs, Archbishop Chaput said, “we have to make ourselves stupid to believe some of the things American Catholics are now expected to accept.”
“There’s nothing more empty-headed in a pluralist democracy than telling citizens to keep quiet about their beliefs. A healthy democracy requires exactly the opposite.”
The leadership of the Catholic Church has abdicated its role in instruction and faith formation, which one can see in church life on a daily basis. In part, they willingly surrendered both in exchange for broader appeal, and in significant part undermined it with the shameful role church leaders played in covering up for pedophiles within their ranks. In order to have enough moral authority to instruct, the priests and bishops have to live their lives in a moral fashion. One cannot lecture about protecting innocent life while keeping child molesters from justice and tacitly allowing them to continue preying on the innocents in the parishes. Even if the percentage of priests molesting children was very small, the acts of church leaders in decades past to shuffle them around to keep them from accountability destroyed their credibility to lead the flock.
Now that we have moved past that (with the probable exception of Roger Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles), the church needs to start teaching the faith. Chaput nails this; the church literally “made itself stupid” by not teaching what it means to be Catholic, our values, our doctrine, and our identity. The Catechism’s ubiquity may have convinced church leaders that teaching was no longer necessary, but the wide ranging misunderstandings of the faith even within the lay ministries disprove that beyond all doubt. Even in my own parish, one RCIA instructor told the class that all souls will eventually go to heaven, an ancient heresy long opposed by the Catholic Church as well as most Christian denominations. Is it any wonder that American Catholics can conclude after that instruction that they can “balance out” social justice issues as Chaput describes, if the weak level of instruction offered at a parish includes such heresies?
Would better instruction in faith reduce the numbers in the parishes? Probably, but the mission of the Catholic Church (or any other Christian sect) is not to win beauty contests. It’s to teach timeless truths in a manner that merits confidence, demonstrates wisdom and moral clarity, and lift the souls of those who believe into eternal life. Chaput rightly puts the failure of the American Catholic church on church leadership itself. Hopefully, he can inspire the laity to demand better of church leaders, and inspire better leaders from within the ranks of the priesthood. (via The Anchoress)
Addendum: In another example of the laity pressing for better consistency from the leaders, Creative Minority Report has an interview with a pro-life leader at the University of Notre Dame, who has started a movement to demand that ND withdraw its invitation to President Barack Obama to speak at its law-school commencement:
In an exclusive interview with CMR, Mary K. Daly, the President of Notre Dame’s Right to Life group, said that the school administration’s decision to invite President Barack Obama to deliver the Commencement Address is a “slap in the face” to many Catholics and has many students questioning whether they can “in good conscience” attend their own college graduation.” …
CMR: Do you folks have any plans to protest?
Notre Dame Right to Life as a student group, though we do not at this time have concrete plans of response, I can assure you that there will be a response. The leadership committee of Right to Life, together with the leadership from all of the other conservative, Catholic-minded campus groups, will be meeting this Tuesday to discuss an organized response.
Blowback
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I’ll tell you what else you don’t have … a pair of balls.
pabarge on March 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM
I can’t accept that the attacks are squarely aimed at Catholicism, but I do believe it is a loosely organized burn toward Christian religion. Skip Judaism, they don’t fight unless they are citizens of Israel. Skip Islam, they are fanatical. Christians are peaceful.
We’re getting closer to getting back on topic here, but destroying Christianity levels the field, turning us hoi polloi into the workers of the fields. Anyone that thinks they will be far better employed after this is sadly mistaken.
ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 10:12 PM
And some of the founding fathers were Catholic, as was Maryland.
The Church tells no one for whom to vote. The Church tells people that formal cooperation in the culture of death is a sin, and in the case of support for those who support abortion, a mortal sin that may lead to excommunication. That’s simply Canon Law, not a threat. The Catholic Church in America has never and will never decide and election. The culture of life, however, might.
tcn on March 22, 2009 at 10:17 PM
The “rebaptism” was done at my request, as I’d converted to a non-christian “religion” way back in my distant youth, and I felt that the “rebaptism” would be a reaffirmation and recommitment to Christianity.
The pastor agreed to do so since it was a private ceremony with between only he and myself, and because I’m terminally ill and had a spiritual need for the reaffirmation.
It was that simple.
KendraWilder on March 22, 2009 at 10:19 PM
I hit the link in your name. I think you are doing a service maybe some of them will go to revisit their comments and maybe feel some remorse someday…could happen
clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 10:22 PM
Thank you.
Even the foulest sites, where the most evil deeds have been done, can be cleansed with an open heart and soul.
Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 10:24 PM
Do you see the irony that many criticize Catholics, saying that we leave our faith behind as we exit the church after Sunday Mass, also criticize Catholics for using our faith to inform our consciences as we vote?
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 10:27 PM
I am sorry to hear of your illness. I pray that you find strength and comfort in your faith as you face this.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 10:29 PM
That’s the Spirit! We cannot let the troubles we face cloud the beauty of our faith.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Thank you for your kindness, and thank you for your prayers. Much appreciated.
KendraWilder on March 22, 2009 at 10:34 PM
Ummm…
Well…
And…
Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 10:36 PM
I am listening to an incredible sermon by Rev. Willian Casey on EWTN. Wow, couldn’t be more timely.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 10:40 PM
One reson I left the Catholic faith is their lack of guts to call out their parishoners for supporting abortion, the other is their support for illegal aliens, it’s become less about WHAT you follow and more about how many followers you can attract.
Leftists have taken over everything else and destroyed it, why not the Catholic Church.
nelsonknows on March 22, 2009 at 10:43 PM
It’s a fine line. A church that shapes the conscience of its members is doing good work. Weighing in on the merits of each public official not so good. Christ and his followers avoided commenting on Roman law, and focused on people saving their individual soul.
There were Catholic founders in the U.S. but they were a small percentage–Charles Carroll, being the most prominent.
dedalus on March 22, 2009 at 10:47 PM
Catholic “leadership” in America is worse than the freakin’ RINOs.
ex-Democrat on March 22, 2009 at 10:55 PM
You’re right. Liberals have infiltrated every aspect of our civilization and are promoting liberal values and moral relativism everywhere.
So, each of us, in our own ways and as best we can, have to do what we can to reverse that.
Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 10:59 PM
Their responsibility is for people’s souls. It is difficult to measure the result.
dedalus on March 22, 2009 at 10:59 PM
I hope so. If the management here won’t police them, then someone has to.
Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 11:02 PM
Unfortunately there have always been cowards in the Church. Imagine that in the time of Martin Luther there were probably many who knew that the pope was sinful and indulgent(pun intended)but did not speak out. Martin Luther was brave. He may have taken the wrong road, but he knew that what was going on was wrong and he spoke out against it.
As I listen to this sermon and I read of Chaput’s calling out the Catholic educators, I am reminded that Jesus promised not to leave us orphans and there are great men of the cloth who will venture forth and proclaim the truth.
Many have tried to destroy the Church, none have succeeded. Nor will they. Jesus is at the helm. We are suffering no worse than those of the past who came before us. We too will triumph.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Mormonism is as foreign to some as Islam — remember, the Mormons fought the Government at one point.
The Utah War.
RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM
What about the Utah War? Do you even know why Mormons left and settle in Utah? You do realize that it was just a few years ago that Missouri finally removed the law that made it legal to kill a Mormon? And that Governor Boggs of IL promised the Mormons if they gave him their guns, he would protect them from the mobs? But when the mobs came, Boggs did not protect them? So Mormons left to land that no one wanted, far away from everyone, to be left alone…and that still wasn’t good enough, the federal government since a third of its army to Utah to take on the Mormons ( so much for freedom of religion eh? )
I too grow tired of all the Catholic bashing, and Mormon bashing…and thank you Y-Not and others for coming to our defense. I agree completely…we conservatives need to work together, instead of bashing others religions in the hopes that some how your religion is better by default.
Last but not least, hooray for chaput! I think its great that Catholics are reminded to look at their roots, instead of selling their principles for 30 pieces of silver. And to all those Catholic bashers who are upset at the various issues Catholics, as men, did wrong…the Old Testament is full of stories where the house of Israel fell short to what God wanted, but he still called them his people. Enough already, its time to stop worrying about someone else’s religion…and instead unite on what we have in common that is good….Unite or Die! ( Not because I will kill you, rather we will be defeated by our true enemy…Satan, and by his great and abominable church…the Church of the World, run by traitors and tyrants aka the Church of Socialism )
Conservative Voice on March 22, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Hi dedalus, I missed you earlier and now you are back and I will be going soon. I have to pick up my daughter at the airport so my time here for the day is almost over.
The Church does not focus on individual races but encourages each of us to base our vote on our conscience and to learn all we can of the people seeking that vote. It can be a fine line, but I believe that the advent of the culture of death has caused the line to be drawn in bold black. The issues were simpler in the past.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:10 PM
This non-Catholic, former pro-choicer has moved in the opposite direction.
All it took was for me to throw off the propaganda from the MSM and public schools and start thinking for myself.
Sarah Palin was right: America is better off with a culture of life.
Look what the rationed “health”care people want: free assisted-suicide and limited “free” medical care for the elderly who don’t pass actuarial muster.
This comes from a culture of aborted life and if it’s not stopped it will only become worse: abortions/terminations when couples exceed their 2-child-carbon-limit (yep, I’ve seen it proposed).
Let’s roll america…..nobama.
ex-Democrat on March 22, 2009 at 11:10 PM
Bravo.
warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 11:11 PM
Excellent conservative voice. I used this same analogy today with our church’s youth group. We watched the Passion of the Christ today and during the movie we stopped and reflected on different events depicted in the film.
I used Judas’ betrayal for the silver in is misguided attempt to help the poor as an example of how Catholics sell our souls on the issue of abortion in our desire to care for the poor.
I don’t claim to know all of Mormon theology or history, but I do know that they are a kind and thoughtful people who love the same things as I, God, family and country. They deserve the utmost respect and a vigorous defense when they are attacked.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Have a safe trip to the airport. The Church has made its position on abortion clear and its members should be able to weigh its relevance in each race.
The culture of death phrase can be a little more troubling since it encompasses many issues of varying importance.
dedalus on March 22, 2009 at 11:16 PM
Hey Ed:
http://aggressiveconservative.blogspot.com/search/label/Hot%20Air%20Bigots
warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 11:17 PM
This is a great response to this post. I had wanted to comment on it earlier but got side tracked. This is one American who believes that the specter of abortion in every aspect of American life is one that has been destructive.
When the claim is made that most Americans think there are more important issues than abortion, I see it for what it is, a distraction by the left. Sleight of hand.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:19 PM
thanks dedalus, this is her first trip alone. I just hope it is a good flight as she really hates to fly.
I look forward to “talking” to you again.
Have a good night all. Rest easy, as it has been said, “We’ve read the book, we know the end, we win.”
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:23 PM
I have to wonder:
a) how many readers of HA are Catholic
b) how many Catholic HA readers give a damn about these Catholic posts
c) how many of the rest of us give a damn about these Catholic posts
Ed, I know you are a committed Catholic. Good luck with that. But who is your audience here? Last time I checked (before you checked in here as a regular blogger) this was a primarily political blog and not one slaved to the Catholic internecine arguments which I daresay are not general interest topics.
Ares on March 22, 2009 at 11:23 PM
I don’t claim to know all of Mormon theology or history, but I do know that they are a kind and thoughtful people who love the same things as I, God, family and country. They deserve the utmost respect and a vigorous defense when they are attacked.
Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Oh please. The Mormons getting along with the catholics again? Too much.
RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 11:47 PM
I’m not sure where on this post we haven’t been. The targeting computers have been tracking mankei and you — and I doubt either of you speak for the Mormons.
unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 11:52 PM
I’m non-Catholic and I do “give a damn about these Catholic posts”. You clearly don’t.
You don’t, however, have to read Ed’s posts on Catholicism, nor do you have any right or power to tell him what he can and can not write about. If you want to vote on the content, you may vote with your feet and get your news commentary elsewhere. Or convince Michelle Malkin to put you on the writing staff.
And this has never been a purely political blog — both Michelle and Brian wrote on issues of interest to social conservatives, and Brian in particular wrote from an Evangelical perspective.
So, ya know…deal with it.
Harpazo on March 22, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Conservative Voice on March 22, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Wait till you’ve heard the WHOLE story before making assertions that just might be inaccurate. I do know the complete story and I know just about ALL of their beliefs. Mormons are okay people, just a little wild in the ideology department.
RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 11:57 PM
I see Mommy’s fed little RD his supper.
Don’t stay up too late, son, tomorrow’s a school day.
warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 11:58 PM
Read the original article again. It is about politics, albeit those affected by only a quarter of the US population.
I’m sorry you don’t find this interesting, but I suspect that if it were your blog instead of Ed’s, you would be able to control what goes in and what comes out. Until then, maybe you will have to put up with one or two items you don’t care for. Sorry.
tcn on March 23, 2009 at 12:01 AM
What do their beliefs have to do with the way that they vote?
While I disagree violently with the theology of the Mormons, I see no problem in partnering with them on economic, political, and social issues whereupon we agree.
Harpazo on March 23, 2009 at 12:04 AM
I’m not sure where on this post we haven’t been. The targeting computers have been tracking mankei and you — and I doubt either of you speak for the Mormons.
unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 11:52 PM
I don’t claim to speak for mormons or catholics. However, I am always interested in what the catholic church is doing, especially since Roger Mahoney is such a political animal who has no problem uniting Church and State whenever he can benefit from such an alliance. Most catholics I know, are very sincere folks and I’m fine with that. But Roger Mahoney? He is one of the most evil bastards to wlk the face of the earth and is not representative of most catholics, although he has complete control over most…
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:05 AM
Well, whatever… The pastor was weak in not explaining to you that Methodists follow the Nicene Creed, which is present in your hymnal:
The Council of Nicea addressed, amongst other things, how many baptisms are necessary for salvation, since some people felt that more than one was needed; that position was determined by the Council to be heresy. There are minor differences between the Methodist version of the “Credo” and the Catholic one (most prominently in the substitution of the word “We” for “I”), but the idea is there.
You might want to see a different pastor for further instruction — the one you went to seems defective in some ways which are troubling. Any Methodists here who want to comment? I’m at the end of my knowledge of Methodism, since the extent of my learning was at a Methodist youth camp in Santa Clara many years ago.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:06 AM
What do their beliefs have to do with the way that they vote?
While I disagree violently with the theology of the Mormons, I see no problem in partnering with them on economic, political, and social issues whereupon we agree.
Harpazo on March 23, 2009 at 12:04 AM
I hear ya. I voted for Mitt Romney in the California Primary. My guy lost. I still think he was the best guy to run the shop…
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:08 AM
I have yet to meet a Catholic here in LA who likes Mahoney. We are all suffering under him. I would not kiss his ring. That said, he is not the Church, any more than I by myself am.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:08 AM
warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 11:58 PM
ha ha ha Feelin’ brave are ya?
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:10 AM
I read Ed long before he joined Hot Air, when he blogged at Captains Quarters. He is well suited to blog here. But Hot Air needs to police its threads better. There’s too much stuff that is inappropriate for a big conservative blog such as this. Either these problems will continue or they will stop. In the meantime, I’m going to expose them to the world.
I’m going to sleep now. I hope that tomorrow I don’t have to post anymore examples of bigotry from this thread. (I need to work on the others!)
Sydney Carton on March 23, 2009 at 12:11 AM
Gee, kid, you’re scarin me to death.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 12:14 AM
RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 11:57 PM
I am a Mormon, I am pretty sure I know more about my faith than you do. And I also know your kind. The kind that thinks they are doing the Lords work by going on a mission to destroy other people’s faith…instead of going on a mission to promote your own. Its a fallacy to think that somehow proving my religion to be false somehow makes your religion true.
Here is a lesson, Jesus Christ spent his time among his own to teach the word of God….and the only people he was critical of was his own. People not of his faith, he had the highest praises for. Will you take this lesson to heart? I wouldn’t bet money on it, but I hope you will.
Conservative Voice on March 23, 2009 at 12:14 AM
I have yet to meet a Catholic here in LA who likes Mahoney. We are all suffering under him. I would not kiss his ring. That said, he is not the Church, any more than I by myself am.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:08 AM
Somebodylikes him. He’s been here since the 60′s and has brought a huge amount of wealth into the catholic church. A big reason why the Vatican will NOT remove him. He is a very astute politician, don’t you agree?
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:15 AM
We conservatives are able to walk and chew gum at the same time. If you don’t like this post, click “Home” and there are many more.
This one has over 200 comments, which is a fair number. Since you are here and commenting, something piqued you about this place…
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:16 AM
?
Patently a subterfuge for: Legalize all the Hispanic (read Roman Catholic) immigrants so to swell the ranks of the US Roman Catholic Church … in order to reach the tipping point where this Republic — for the first time since its founding — will truly become a Roman Catholic country … and join the ranks of other outstanding Roman Catholic countries such as Mexico, Venezuela, and the Philippines — avatars each for liberty, freedom, justice, and prosperity! /sarc
sanantonian on March 23, 2009 at 12:18 AM
Conservative Voice on March 23, 2009 at 12:14 AM
You could never be more wrong anout a person as you’re wrong about me.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:18 AM
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:18 AM
fair enough, why not give fellow conservatives who are Catholics the same benefit of the doubt then?
Conservative Voice on March 23, 2009 at 12:20 AM
sanantonian on March 23, 2009 at 12:18 AM
That is one of Mahoney’s plans here on SOCAL.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM
The Church moves very slowly and deliberately. I have no idea of how Mahoney stands in Rome, but I do know how he stands in my parish. As far as wealth, the only wealth I’ve seen is a new Cathedral (the Taj Mahoney), and the closing of schools and convents to sell their property to pay for sex abuse settlements. The priests have to beg us to contribute to the special collection for the Archdiocese.
The Bishop’s Wife might not be very Catholic, but the events in that movie (one of my favorites) eerily resemble real life events here in LA, except the Bishop didn’t see the Light as in the movie…
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:23 AM
Conservative Voice on March 23, 2009 at 12:20 AM
I do give them the benefit of the doubt, exzept when some begin making assertions about the church that simply are not accurate. Those that are sincere, I have absolutely no problem with at all…
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:27 AM
…and I’m sure they’re pantingly grateful for your approval, too.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 12:29 AM
The Taj Mahoney…that’s a good one.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Hmm…. You are a Know Nothing?
Abraham Lincoln:
Et Tu?
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:31 AM
.
Thank you for inserting yourself as the unasked for policeman regarding matters Roman Catholic on this blog! (After all, you already have your own pro-Roman Catholic blog.)
P.S. As you rush to include me in your “parade of dastardly anti-Roman bigots who post on Hot Air,” please remember that I would love to see Bobby Jindal become President someday.
sanantonian on March 23, 2009 at 12:31 AM
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Now you’re portraying me as condescending eh? I understand your kind all too well…
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:32 AM
Ah, but we do have to put up with the trash. Four hundred ninety times (== seventy times seven) if we are fundamental about Scripture. But then the gloves can come completely off.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Et Tu?
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 12:31 AM
One big reason Mahoney is recruiting Illegal Aliens into America is to increase the numbers for the church because in America, the church is dying off ond Mahoney knows it. As I said earlier, Individual Liberty AND smaller government are incompatible with Roman Catholic ideolgy. And don’t take that a slam against all catholics.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:42 AM
Where did I advocate the “oppression” of anyone, kind sir? I do not agree with the position of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in the US to legalize the mass of (predominately Catholic and Hispanic) illegals in this country. I also gave my take on their motives for advocating for the position they do.
Feel free to refute me, but the ad hominem tack causes me to suspect that you are low on good factual arguments with which to buttress your position.
All men are created equal — yes: But not all cultures or religions are. Don’t tell me you are a multi-culturalist?
If the best argument you have is to pull out the “religious bigot card,” then allow me to say that you have learned well from the Sharptons of this world and their “race card” antics.
sanantonian on March 23, 2009 at 12:42 AM
Y’know, if you were smarter, I’d have to give you credit for irony in that remark.
But….naah.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 12:44 AM
sanantonian on March 23, 2009 at 12:42 AM
BTW – Mahoney gets 57% of their funding from grant monies from Federal and State government. Talk about oppression, who’s sticking up for the taxpayer here? Sydney? Jvette? Yeah right.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:49 AM
Looks like warbaby is down to only personal attacks now.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 12:52 AM
Though unrelated to the topic, here is an interesting quote from Peter Hitchens’ Mail on Sunday column:
aengus on March 23, 2009 at 12:54 AM
Almost down to your level, huh? Just think of all the fun you’ll have telling the other kids on the playground how you dazzled everybody with your wit.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 12:55 AM
It seems to me that you are attempting to put human religious dogma above the teachings and laws of God himself. No human has a right, and I don’t care if it was the Pope at the Council of Nicea and his fellows and followers, to restrict or define that which God has approved and set down.
I spent two years praying and talking directly to God for guidance in the decision as to what would be appropriate. God sent me a sign that complete commitment starting with rebaptism would be a wise decision for me as I was in great spiritual need and in need of the symbolism.
If your attitude is based on the Nicene Creed, a human creation which is, IIRC the underpinnings of the Catholic faith, I respect that and your religious affiliation and beliefs. Just as I respect all other organized religions regardless of whether they are Christian in origin or non-Christian in origin.
One of the most important reasons I left the Catholic Church is because they taught that every other religion in the world was inherently wrong and heresy against the Catholic Church. That was completely anathema to me, and not in keeping with my understanding and knowing of God.
Unlike many who take actions based on whims, this is something I’ve dedicated most of my lifetime to, having studied every organized religion, and every cultural belief system, I could possibly fit into those 40 plus years. I don’t see any reason or need to compare any of them in any negative lights since it was a personal quest, and the motive was to resolve my spirituality before I ran out of time.
Humans have distorted belief systems so greatly in recent decades that I have come to believe that there is no one better than myself to research thoroughly the available “choices”, and to let my own spiritual conscience be my guide without being “influenced” in the process by anyone else but God, with whom I’ve had a running dialog since I left the Catholic Church. He’s pretty cool that way, ya know? ;-B
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Making huge claims while not having an army to enforce such claims will almost assuredly make you subject to ridicule and smearing, especially when you smear others.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:01 AM
Individual liberty and smaller government are indeed compatible with Roman Catholic theology.
I don’t believe Mahoney is for legalizing illegal immigrants to increase his flock — I would expect that he (like me) are for it because it is the right thing to do — for those who came here and contributed without breaking any law other than the one that said they shouldn’t come here.
As I pointed out in several previous comments, my wife’s father and grandfather were illegals. Both were paper sons, and broke the law to get around the Alien Exclusion Acts. In later life, there was an amnesty offered, and both father and grandfather underwent “immigration confession”. Both were stripped of their citizenship without prejudice; my wife’s father took the citizenship exam within days of the ruling and was re-sworn as a citizen just in time to vote (as a Republican) in the next elections. They were exemplary citizens, even as this country mistreated them for their race, losing two stores to private takings (the last one, newly built, was condemned for the offramp to Dodger Stadium; the prior one was condemned by the railroads for Union Station).
Like Lincoln, I could care less about the religion of the immigrants (Guatemalans are almost universally NOT Catholic, but I think they deserve a chance too), but I think that assimilation is not possible until these people are allowed a path to citizenship.
Chaput, by the way, has the identical position to Mahoney on immigration, so the same accusation might well be leveled against him.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:03 AM
See there, irony-proof.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 1:12 AM
RD,
The quote I posted refers in the main to the liberal MSM, who smear Benedict for promoting pre-marital chasity and marital fidelity. I’m confident these are positions you agree with.
aengus on March 23, 2009 at 1:15 AM
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 1:12 AM
I think kendr was referring to the pope and the catholic church. You obviously are very uncomfortable with your association with your church when confronted with…..inconvenient truths. But know this, most of us could care less about you being a catholic. I mean, I really don’t care…
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:21 AM
I get it — all that stuff in the Nicene Creed is unimportant balderdash.
And I’ll bet your God agrees with you completely in your private interpretation of his will. He ought to — because he is you.
You do not even understand the theology of the church you have joined (the Methodists do consider the Creed an important statement of faith), so I don’t think you ever understood the theology of the one you left.
What you need to understand is that God does have standards, and there is a punishment for violating those standards. If those thoughts are anathema, then perhaps you’d best rethink Christianity as a whole. There is a stick along with the carrot in this faith.
My sister is much like you — she left the Church because none of it made any sense — the rules were too restrictive. After all, there are dozens of ways to salvation, right? She joined a small church which teaches that “faith conquers all”. Sadly, the lack of theology other than that has led her to steal and lie, on the premise that Jesus forgives every sin if one merely asks. She has such certitude in her faith, for her relationship with her god is a personal one.
Your “conversation” with God needs to be informed. Again, seek another pastor — the one you have is no good.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:22 AM
Winner of the Josef Stalin Award for Religious Cluelessness
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:25 AM
I’m a freshman at Notre Dame, and this is just embarrassing. I just finished a debate with my roommates – apparently we can’t let the facts that we’re a Catholic university and that we condemn Obama’s views as murder to get in the way of inviting him to speak at our school. Chaput was right about Catholics no longer caring – I’m the only girl on my floor who is against abortion, and I’m not Catholic.
Peche on March 23, 2009 at 1:26 AM
One of the most important reasons I left the Catholic Church is because they taught that every other religion in the world was inherently wrong and heresy against the Catholic Church. That was completely anathema to me, and not in keeping with my understanding and knowing of God.
Unlike many who take actions based on whims, this is something I’ve dedicated most of my lifetime to, having studied every organized religion, and every cultural belief system, I could possibly fit into those 40 plus years. I don’t see any reason or need to compare any of them in any negative lights since it was a personal quest, and the motive was to resolve my spirituality before I ran out of time.
Humans have distorted belief systems so greatly in recent decades that I have come to believe that there is no one better than myself to research thoroughly the available “choices”, and to let my own spiritual conscience be my guide without being “influenced” in the process by anyone else but God, with whom I’ve had a running dialog since I left the Catholic Church. He’s pretty cool that way, ya know? ;-B
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Are you kendra?
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:29 AM
Since this is all obviously too subtle for you, let me try to break it down. Please forgive any words of more than one syllable.
For several hours now, your every remark has been a textbook example of grandiosity, with no apparent awareness of your own overweening arrogance. Your most recent “ripostes” have accused me and others of being condescending, while you unerringly pronounce on things you obviously know nothing about from the lofty perspective of your own assumed eminence – including, of course, your presumption to speak for some imagined “most of us.” I believe in your world that comes under the heading of “In your dreams, kid.”
Put simply, you come off like a punk and a blowhard. I realize being all mouth is probably a boon in your social set, but it doesn’t seem to be working out too well in this company, does it?
‘Night now. Tell your mom not to wait up.
warbaby on March 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM
No, I just looked at your post bemoaning all those dirty spanish speaking catholics trying to take over your otherwise healthy USA and drew the obvious conclusion. You mentioned their ethnicity and their religion, and you expect me to conclude that you are a not a bigot?
Your words match those of the Know Nothings. I’m just drawing the obvious inference.
If you don’t like it, you can restate your premise to not include ethnicity or religion. But it won’t work, because now we know you.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM
As I posted earlier, the most active pro-life groups are secular not religious. It doesn’t take a religious pronouncement for reasoning people to see that abortion kills a real person.
docdave on March 23, 2009 at 1:41 AM
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:22 AM
Oh man. That is rich. The rewarder of lawlessness, because you claim it’s the right thing to do, telling somebody there are indeed rules and regulations in their relationship to god, playing the race card, and the victim card, all in the same breath. Wow. Spoken like a true RoastBeefer. Are you over on “latinopoliticsblog.com”?
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:43 AM
To be a good Catholic, you have to use the force of law to make your neighbors accept your moral codes? Why does it just apply to abortion? Make divorce illegal, and homosexuality, and the death penalty, and working on Sunday. The only moral outrage here is that Archbishop Chaput would force non-Catholic women to abdicate their most intimate medical decisions to the United States government. I can’t say whether Chaput is a good Catholic, but he’s a lousy American.
RightOFLeft on March 23, 2009 at 1:44 AM
I think we’re getting a good look at some of these “brown” catholics who are clearly OPEN BORDERS ZEALOTS in favor of giving AMNESTY to lawbreaking Illegal Aliens because the racist Americans are arrogant and stole our land from us many years ago. And warbaby, which statue are you praying to tonight? Isn’t God a “living God”? Repeat that 50 times and call me in the morning…..fool!!!!
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:50 AM
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM
I knew it was just a matter of time before we got the wolf out of the sheeps clothing. You didn’t disappoint…ha ha ha
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 1:53 AM
My conversations with God are well informed, considering the extensive research I’ve done during over four decades, beginning when my now deceased mother decided to go to college to earn a degree, and aside from two majors she took a minor in world religions. I spent a lot of weekends with her traveling sometimes long distances to visit with and observe all of the countless religious groups and even cults she studied. My own research continued after she graduated and I moved 3000 miles ‘cross country.
Who you are, I do not know. I simply accept that you are speaking out of great ignorance of many things, the most important to me being that you understand nothing about my own quest and journey along my spiritual path.
And I think it’s time to end this dialog between you and myself, as it would be diverting the thread way off topic for me to try to fill in the blanks for you of over 40 years of study to try to bring you to a level of insight that would suffice for you to understand why my decision was a sound one.
Let me say this much in the pastor’s defense: He read to me out of the Methodist book of precepts the conditions under which me would be authorized to take such action, and there we in all -three- that were met, including spiritual comfort for the terminally ill.
As I said, you are severely lacking in your knowledge and understanding. Peace. No harm, no foul. :)
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 1:59 AM
“KendraWilder” is a pseudonym which I was forced to start using a few years back when someone began “stalking” me online. Ed Morrissey knows my real name, and he also knows that I only use this one pseudonym, and never don other “sock puppets” for nefarious reasons.
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 2:04 AM
It’s just time for what ever religion, for what ever denomination to follow it’s teachings.
Gohawgs on March 23, 2009 at 2:12 AM
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 2:04 AM
Somebody else assumed your words as if to be theirs. Tricky guys huh?
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 2:14 AM
Sheesh, must be tired and bleery eyed, I wrote one paragraph very badly and for the “pastor’s” sake should correct it:
That should read:
“Let me say this much in the pastor’s defense: He read to me out of the Methodist book of precepts the conditions under which he would be authorized to take such action, and there were in all -three- that were met, including spiritual comfort for the terminally ill.”
KendraWilder on March 23, 2009 at 2:19 AM
Gotta run. Get some rest.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 2:29 AM
That you would have to hunt so hard to find a reason should have given you pause. That it didn’t is a statement in and of itself. And the statement beginning “Peace” is certainly at odds with the fighting words which precede it.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 2:36 AM
Thank you. You think there are no rules and regulations in a relationship with God? You think that all laws are to be obeyed, even those which are unjust? Would you have turned in someone harboring an escaped slave because Justice Taney and the rest of the Supreme Court said you had to? And I’m really trying to figure out what Bobby Jindal (since I assume “RoastBeefer” is another term for “Hindu Redneck”) has to do with this.
And no, I am not over on “latinopoliticsblog.com”. I am here, quite obviously.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 2:43 AM
I think RD’s “RoastBeefer” comment is intended to refer to one who is brown on the outside (Hispanic) and red on the inside (i.e. Communist).
aengus on March 23, 2009 at 2:46 AM
Yup, a bigot. Interesting, in an insect sort of way. Some of those “Lawbreaking Illegal Aliens” are better patriots than you’ll ever be. So let me help you here:
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 2:52 AM
Ah, is that better? Seems just as racist to me, mentioning an ethnicity coupled with a political viewpoint. I just interpreted it as a different ethnicity coupled with a different political viewpoint. It is not a term I’d use, but then I’m a victim type, according to RealDemocrat, so I wouldn’t be expected to.
But real Americans wouldn’t use it either.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 2:55 AM
I’d rather force my neighbors to accept my moral code than the other way around. As it’s going right now, it is the other way around. Catholic hospitals will be forced to give abortions, as Catholic pharmacists are already forced to give the “morning after pill”. Aborted babies born alive are allowed to die. Women are allowed to have the power of life and death over their children. Chaput as an American has every right to campaign for what he believes in, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a lousy American.
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 3:03 AM
I’m not attempting to excuse it. It is most definitely a racial slur and very bad. Also, RealDemocrat’s insistence on referring to Catholics as “catholics” is very petty. Eschewing proper catitialisation when referring to specific groups is a sign of irrational emnity – many anti-semites insist on typing the word Jews as “jews”.
aengus on March 23, 2009 at 3:05 AM
Not either of our places to excuse. I’m here, so anything he wants to say about me, I can respond. We had one Jew show up tonight, and he/she took care of business quite well. Mormons did quite well against RD too. I think the evening was fairly ecumenical, although I’m sad some Lutheran didn’t show up to tell us “We’ve got your Bach.”
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 3:24 AM
Some Catholic leaders are definately for the “quick” legalization of illegals as it would help Church numbers. The majority rank and file Catholics are for illegal aliens going back to their home country and entering the country legally.
Some Catholics have problems reconciling the Church’s teaching on compassion with having less fortunate people follow the U.S. rules for entering the country.
There is an inner war going on in some dioceses in the Church. The war is a war of ideas. As was mentioned before, not all Church members are on the same page. When all Church members come to an understanding of the Cathecism and teach it in the proper way, then the Church will be fine. Until then, it will suffer in the United States.
bej on March 23, 2009 at 8:27 AM
Any meaningful religion MUST believe that all other religions are wrong for this simple reason: all major religions teach and believe mutually exclusive truths. Either Jesus is God’s son or he isn’t. If he is, the christians are right and the other religions are wrong. Either reincarnation is true or it isn’t. If it is, the Hindus are right and everyone else is wrong. I could go on and on. At most only one religion can be true. Maybe none of them are true, but it’s illogical to believe that 2 or more religions which believe opposite things can all be true. While I do believe that we need to respect each other no matter what faith we follow, this idea that “all religions are true” is just another meaningless platitude of our hyper PC modern culture.
frank63 on March 23, 2009 at 8:54 AM
He’s not doing it merely as an American citizen. He is identifying votes for particular candidates as sinful and requiring penance. Some Catholics don’t see their religious leaders as particularly qualified to decide how the country should be governed.
dedalus on March 23, 2009 at 9:44 AM
unclesmrgol on March 23, 2009 at 2:55 AM
You eventually revealed yourself for what you are. Play your race card all you want.
RealDemocrat on March 23, 2009 at 10:01 AM
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