Chaput scolds American Catholics and the church

posted at 12:21 pm on March 22, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Archbishop Charles Chaput has become one of the most outspoken advocates for American Catholics in the last few years, but now he trains his rhetorical and teaching skills on the church itself and its members.  Chaput decries the state of Catholic education that has allowed people to fundamentally misunderstand their own faith, and scolds the church for allowing itself to become more concerned with membership than truth.  The consequences of the failure can be seen all around us, Chaput says:

Having been asked to examine what November 2008 and its aftermath can teach Catholics about American culture, the state of American Catholicism and the kind of Pauline discipleship necessary today, Archbishop Chaput said:

“November showed us that 40 years of American Catholic complacency and poor formation are bearing exactly the fruit we should have expected. Or to put it more discreetly, the November elections confirmed a trend, rather than created a new moment, in American culture.”

Noting that there was no question about President Barack Obama’s views on abortion “rights,” embryonic stem cell research and other “problematic issues,” he commented:

“Some Catholics in both political parties are deeply troubled by these issues. But too many Catholics just don’t really care. That’s the truth of it. If they cared, our political environment would be different. If 65 million Catholics really cared about their faith and cared about what it teaches, neither political party could ignore what we believe about justice for the poor, or the homeless, or immigrants, or the unborn child. If 65 million American Catholics really understood their faith, we wouldn’t need to waste each other’s time arguing about whether the legalized killing of an unborn child is somehow ‘balanced out’ or excused by three other good social policies.”

Offering a sober evaluation of the state of American Catholicism, he added:

“We need to stop over-counting our numbers, our influence, our institutions and our resources, because they’re not real. We can’t talk about following St. Paul and converting our culture until we sober up and get honest about what we’ve allowed ourselves to become. We need to stop lying to each other, to ourselves and to God by claiming to ‘personally oppose’ some homicidal evil — but then allowing it to be legal at the same time.”

Commenting on society’s attitude towards Catholic beliefs, Archbishop Chaput said, “we have to make ourselves stupid to believe some of the things American Catholics are now expected to accept.”

“There’s nothing more empty-headed in a pluralist democracy than telling citizens to keep quiet about their beliefs. A healthy democracy requires exactly the opposite.”

The leadership of the Catholic Church has abdicated its role in instruction and faith formation, which one can see in church life on a daily basis.  In part, they willingly surrendered both in exchange for broader appeal, and in significant part undermined it with the shameful role church leaders played in covering up for pedophiles within their ranks.  In order to have enough moral authority to instruct, the priests and bishops have to live their lives in a moral fashion.  One cannot lecture about protecting innocent life while keeping child molesters from justice and tacitly allowing them to continue preying on the innocents in the parishes.  Even if the percentage of priests molesting children was very small, the acts of church leaders in decades past to shuffle them around to keep them from accountability destroyed their credibility to lead the flock.

Now that we have moved past that (with the probable exception of Roger Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles), the church needs to start teaching the faith.  Chaput nails this; the church literally “made itself stupid” by not teaching what it means to be Catholic, our values, our doctrine, and our identity.  The Catechism’s ubiquity may have convinced church leaders that teaching was no longer necessary, but the wide ranging misunderstandings of the faith even within the lay ministries disprove that beyond all doubt.  Even in my own parish, one RCIA instructor told the class that all souls will eventually go to heaven, an ancient heresy long opposed by the Catholic Church as well as most Christian denominations.  Is it any wonder that American Catholics can conclude after that instruction that they can “balance out” social justice issues as Chaput describes, if the weak level of instruction offered at a parish includes such heresies?

Would better instruction in faith reduce the numbers in the parishes?  Probably, but the mission of the Catholic Church (or any other Christian sect) is not to win beauty contests.  It’s to teach timeless truths in a manner that merits confidence, demonstrates wisdom and moral clarity, and lift the souls of those who believe into eternal life.  Chaput rightly puts the failure of the American Catholic church on church leadership itself.  Hopefully, he can inspire the laity to demand better of church leaders, and inspire better leaders from within the ranks of the priesthood.  (via The Anchoress)

Addendum: In another example of the laity pressing for better consistency from the leaders, Creative Minority Report has an interview with a pro-life leader at the University of Notre Dame, who has started a movement to demand that ND withdraw its invitation to President Barack Obama to speak at its law-school commencement:

In an exclusive interview with CMR, Mary K. Daly, the President of Notre Dame’s Right to Life group, said that the school administration’s decision to invite President Barack Obama to deliver the Commencement Address is a “slap in the face” to many Catholics and has many students questioning whether they can “in good conscience” attend their own college graduation.” …

CMR: Do you folks have any plans to protest?

Notre Dame Right to Life as a student group, though we do not at this time have concrete plans of response, I can assure you that there will be a response. The leadership committee of Right to Life, together with the leadership from all of the other conservative, Catholic-minded campus groups, will be meeting this Tuesday to discuss an organized response.


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Sydney, What is Chaputs stance on Roger Mahoney? What’s yours?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:15 PM

Apostolic succession has everything to do with relating scripture to the current day.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Mormonism is as foreign to some as Islam — remember, the Mormons fought the Government at one point.

I’m not familiar with that history, but in terms of the present in my estimation American Mormons embody many of the things that American conservatism espouses: strong family values, pro business, personal responsibility, and an emphasis of helping others through private organizations rather than relying on burgeoning governmental agencies. I really don’t see why any conservative would have difficulty with the LDS.

Unfortunately, for many Islam in America is associated with politically radical African American converts to the religion (the first mosque I ever visited was from the so-called “black Muslims” in the DC area), many of whom are in prison, and immigrants from countries that are sworn enemies of Israel and, in some cases, the U.S. The attempts to incorporate sharia law in Europe hasn’t helped either.

It’s not appropriate to discriminate against either group, but I can understand the origins of sentiments against the latter a heck of a lot more than hostility to the former.

Y-not on March 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM

This might help things in America:

“[The Catholic Church] should be the religion of the state to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.” -Pius IX

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 1:35 PM

Once again, mankai is upset that Catholics believe they should be Catholic. Old story, move on folks, not much to see here except some dime-store rhetoric.

Makes claims that Post-conciliar documents are somehow binding (they are not). Makes claims that VII was doctrinal (it was not). Makes claims that Catholics are just sheep, bend their will to every word that comes from any Pope’s mouth or pen (they aren’t and they don’t). Creates straw men from documents written with specific purposes in mind, and then burns straw men.

So, mankai, how bad was your conscience before you left in a huff?

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:15 PM

Apostolic succession has everything to do with relating scripture to the current day.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM

Then we can dispense with Vatican I and the doctrine of “continuity of faith.” You have a problem if you are arguing that until sometime in the 1960s the Popes and Councils had no idea what it meant to be a Christian and a distorted idea of who can be saved.

I can quote many more Popes and Councils reiterating the quotes I have included. Do you need a more recent example? 19th century is still part of ignorance?

Changing of dogma and doctrine is condemned.
– St. Pius X (1903 to 1914)

Vatican I addressed the issue of continuity (as I’ve quoted already). I’m just defending the Popes. I know some won’t see it that way, but they would.

“For the doctrine of faith which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention to be perfected by human ingenuity, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our Holy Mother, the Church, has once declared, nor is that meaning ever to be departed from under the pretense or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them.” -Constitutio de Fide Catholica, Chapter iv. (Vatican I, Quoted by Pope Leo XIII in Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae -1899)

If believing the Popes is “bashing Catholicism” then the Popes are meaningless. Either you believe them or not.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Justice of the poor, the homeless, or immigrants? Please. Sounds like leftist liberal orthodoxy to me. Catholic politics are left of center. There is a good reason they vote democrat election after election.

keep the change on March 22, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Because conservatives don’t care about the poor, the homeless or immigrants.

Darth Executor on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Mormonism is as foreign to some as Islam — remember, the Mormons fought the Government at one point.

The Utah War.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:10 PM

Ok, so we get the real source of your vitriol. You are a fervent convert — away from Catholicism.

Got it.

So you do have a Catechism, which you’ve obviously never cracked or read, since you’ve cited something out of it not even I could find (and believe me, mine is well-worn). My religious education teachers made us read it, and the Bible too, so we could know where each of the easily digestible pieces of Catechism and Tradition originated. As a CCD teacher, I make sure my kids do the same. You don’t want to Confirm someone who doesn’t truly believe, or believes something other than what is there.

You are welcome to be firm in your new faith, as we are welcome (whether you think so or not) to continue the faith of our fathers.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM

You dismiss the Post-Conciliar documents. You might want to tell your church of their error.

You dismiss Vat II as a non-binding Council. You’ll need to chuck out your catechism and rescind the anathema it declares as non-binding.

You dismiss Pius IX. He’d be thrilled to know that.

Seems as though you are the one bashing the Popes and Councils.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:32 PM

The Utah War.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Long over. The Mormons were far more gracious in defeat than the Democrats, who fought the Civil War all the way into the 1960’s.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:33 PM

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM

Truth gettin’ to ya? You know Sydney?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:33 PM

Because conservatives don’t care about the poor, the homeless or immigrants.

Darth Executor on March 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM

Ah, but we do. Give a man a fish….

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Ok, so we get the real source of your vitriol. You are a fervent convert — away from Catholicism.

Got it.

Go ahead, dismiss the scores of vitriol spewed openly by the Popes and accuse me without evudence.

So you do have a Catechism, which you’ve obviously never cracked or read, since you’ve cited something out of it not even I could find (and believe me, mine is well-worn)

I have a catechism… just because you can’t find a doctrine does not mean that it doesn’t exist. You have ignored my direct quotes so far, to what doctrine are you referring so I can quote it so you can dismiss that too?

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM

RoastBeefer – brown on the outside, red on the inside.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Racially and culturally insensitive, all in one compact word. Definitely liberal.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM

It’s all ego to them, destruction and satisfaction of their pathetic attempt to win a thread, pretend they’re important, and burn bridges in a ridiculous attempt at purity in a massive political movement. Stupidity is their only defense, because if it’s deliberate, it has a much worse name.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 6:02 PM

That’s undoubtedly true for some posters, I certainly found this to be so among many internet apologists (both Prot & Cath). I’ve read through this thread and except for one particular commentor, I haven’t found what you are upset about. Whatever mankai’s true motivations are here, he/she is using verbatim quotes from Catholic sources in making a point. Some of the stuff he/she is quoting from is exactly what many Catholics have found to be troubling or at least paradoxical. Mankai may find this a reason to not be Catholic, while others do not find it to be earth-shattering to their faith. Regardless of where one ends up after reading them, merely discussing the matter isn’t a case of bashing or anti-Catholicism (a term which is seriously over-used).

Btw, this isn’t limited solely to Catholicism. There is something in every religion that can lead one to doubt or disbelieve. Ditto for agnosticism/atheism.

JohnAGJ on March 22, 2009 at 6:40 PM

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:29 PM

You dismiss the Post-Conciliar documents. You might want to tell your church of their error.

You dismiss Vat II as a non-binding Council. You’ll need to chuck out your catechism and rescind the anathema it declares as non-binding.

You dismiss Pius IX. He’d be thrilled to know that.

Seems as though you are the one bashing the Popes and Councils.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:32 PM

I did nothing of the sort. VII was a Pastoral Council, not a dogmatic council. The nuances are apparently ost on you.

The Post-Conciliar documents are exactly that–Post-Conciliar. They deal with issues of discipline, not dogma. Once again, these are nuances you apparently can’t be bothered to acknowledge.

Pius IX was a saintly and holy Pope, and I do not dismiss him, but I do read him in context and on specific point, which was how he wrote. You take him out of context and apply his statements as blankets where they were never intended to go.

I am certainly not bashing anyone, but you are rude beyond belief.

You are certainly entitled to you ignorance, but you can’t possibly expect to Catholics to NOT call you on it.

Call it what you like, the facts don’t change–you dislike Catholicism and you left because Catholicism didn’t bend to your will. Too bad we don’t all applaud your headlong march into hell. Have a lovely time, my sad friend. I have better things to do with my life than waste time on your trolling.

Oh, and since you are so happy being a Protestant, why do you need to make such points here? Methinks you do protest, much too much. I’m sure your pastor would be proud, but I doubt Jesus thinks you are doing the Lord’s work.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:41 PM

Truth gettin’ to ya? You know Sydney?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:33 PM

No, but I know all about you.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM

Just to make sure folks don’t get mislead by your oh so clever comment, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution. Roman Catholics do not ascribe to a literal interpretation of the Old Testament.

and

As the Church teaches, the final lens in Christian sight is your own informed conscience, which should guide your words and acts and thoughts.

and

For those who are not Roman Catholic, you must understand that while the Bible is part of the faith, it really is not central to the living church, only a part of it. Roman Catholics are in no way fundamentalists. At its best it is an intellectual faith which is still centered on the life of Jesus Christ and the meaning of it two millennia later.

These quotes show, I believe, where many “Christian” churches have gone wrong. Too many denominations, even some evangelicals, have tried to rationalize the Bible and it’s teachings with what mankind understands or feels, or with cultural opinions of the moment.

Rather, the Bible, as the inerrant Word of God, is to be taken as entirely truthful, as it is written. Sola Scriptura (yes, I am an LCMS Lutheran.) The goal of the catholic church (not the Roman Catholic church), should be not to interpret the Bible to make it more ‘polically correct’ or to elevate any Christian opinions, edicts or practices to the level of the Bible, but rather to proclaim God’ Word faithfully.

So I would have to say that I believe the Bible literally (although I may not always understand – that’s part of the mystery of faith). And while I study the Bible, I must not let my intellect take precedence over the insight provided by the Holy Spirit. And finally, my thoughts, words & actions should be guided by the Bible, and not my conscience since my sinful nature will always color my objectivity.

As for the original topic of the thread, I believe that God works in many mysterious ways, and I look forward to having Obama’s and Daly’s messages held up for a side-by-side comparison.

gobblemom on March 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM

So true. Most catholics don’t really know what they believe as with most religious bodies. The only ones I’ve seen that KNOWS what they believe is the Jehovahs Witnesses. Man they are indocrinated….

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:01 PM

There is a huge difference between faith and indoctrination.

highhopes on March 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM

Ed Morrissey is a Catholic who attends Mass every Sunday, and seems to me to be forthright in his defense of our Church.

Allah is what some euphemistically call a “lapsed Catholic” — but his Catholic morality still shows through regardless of the atheims he professes.

And Michelle Malkin herself is also an obviously devout Catholic as well….

We come here for the stimulating debate, not to be one big happy family. If we want to be one big happy family, there are plenty of blogs with page after page of identical views (then again, sometimes that’s what we see here, for half a page or so).

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:19 PM

What’s stimulating about someone who says that Catholics are pedophiles, illegal immigrants, idolaters, and drunken bafoon Roastbeefers?

I long suspected Michelle Malkin is Catholic, but I can’t say for sure. Nevertheless, this blog has a serious problem. I’ve decided to do something about it. I’m going to go through the archives and post on my long-defunct blog the evidence for all to see. It is really appalling once you get a full view of it.

Allah has set the tone, unfortunately. And maybe the others think that controversy and bigots posting here are good for traffic, which gets them their 30 pieces of silver. Michelle seems more motivated towards genuine conservativism and I don’t know if she’d approve of these threads or these bigots who attack Catholicism, or Mormonism, or any other.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 6:49 PM

mankai

Tell us about women wearing veils in church – A pope thing or loose talk that got out of hand.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 6:52 PM

I did nothing of the sort. VII was a Pastoral Council, not a dogmatic council. The nuances are apparently ost on you.

Dismissing Vatican II as non-binding on Catholics was one of the reasons the Holy See went nuts once that SSPX bishop’s past went public. According to Church teaching Vatican II is binding upon Catholics, as are all previous ecumenical councils.

JohnAGJ on March 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM

I did nothing of the sort. VII was a Pastoral Council, not a dogmatic council. The nuances are apparently ost on you.

That only makes matters worse for the modern Catholic.

This means that the decrees of Trent (Fully affirmed) and the Popes (dismissed by the Catholic on here – not by me – as ignorant of salvation) have even fewer places to turn to argue that the scores of “vitriol” spewed by popes and dogmatic councils are even more firmly entrenched.

I don’t dismiss those clear statements and I don’t nuance them away (a practice condemned by Vat 1).

Vat II openly contradicts the decrees of Popes and Councils. So in the spirit of the Pastoral Council, Catholics should feel free to object to its conclusions.

By extension, any reference in the current catechism to Vat II may also be objected to. We can then conclude that Vat II’s statements of salvation (re: Muslims, atheists, etc.) may very well be in error… and therefore the Popes submitting themselves to those doctrines may be in error on the very question of salvation itself.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:56 PM

mankai

Tell us about women wearing veils in church – A pope thing or loose talk that got out of hand.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 6:52 PM

Paul addresses this in 1 Cor (and I’d have to define “in church”), but I hold it be non-binding on the post-Acts church… but I have no idea what your point may be.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM

RoastBeefer – brown on the outside, red on the inside.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Racially and culturally insensitive, all in one compact word. Definitely liberal.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM

C’mon, you had to laugh. That’s a pretty good one, don’t ya think? Some guy wrote that back in 2000.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM

I’ve read through this thread and except for one particular commentor, I haven’t found what you are upset about. Whatever mankai’s true motivations are here, he/she is using verbatim quotes from Catholic sources in making a point. Some of the stuff he/she is quoting from is exactly what many Catholics have found to be troubling or at least paradoxical. Mankai may find this a reason to not be Catholic, while others do not find it to be earth-shattering to their faith. Regardless of where one ends up after reading them, merely discussing the matter isn’t a case of bashing or anti-Catholicism (a term which is seriously over-used).

Btw, this isn’t limited solely to Catholicism. There is something in every religion that can lead one to doubt or disbelieve. Ditto for agnosticism/atheism.

JohnAGJ on March 22, 2009 at 6:40 PM

John, you should know that anyone can twist any out of context quote to mean anything. Context is incredibly important.

Besides, malkai must think we’re idiots to believe he’s “defending” the Popes. This is classic Anti-Catholicism: take some centuries old quote, publish it as an out of context statement, demand people declare their adherence to it or they fail the tenets of their faith. It’s such and old and tired attempt to discredit the Church. It is the argument borne out of falsely quoting out of context statements. It’s like posting a statement from Thomas Jefferson about his love of revolution, and then turning it into a statement that the US Government is illegal because Thomas Jefferson was an anarchist and if you REALLY believe in Jefferson you’d be an anarchist, etc.

I can’t believe anyone would give any credit to this sort of argument. It is amateur in the extreme.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM

Enjoyong the fun… but my devoutly Catholic parents need me to pick up some medicine for them… and I love them more than Hot Air!

:)

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM

gobblemom on March 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM

No offense to you, ma’am, but I’ll take the centuries-old, intellectually rigorous faith of Roman Catholicism to the ‘inerrant Word of God’ sloth propagated by other denominations.

The notion that all divinely inspired ideas ceased over 2,000 years ago is kind of silly.

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 7:01 PM

I’m starting to confine myself to only Ed’s posts. I’m getting sick and tired of Allah’s snarky, condescending and sneering attitude. I get enough of that everywhere I go. I don’t need to seek it out.

Thanks Ed for this excellent post.

Allah, go . . . . . . oh, never mind.

Charles Martel on March 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM

you made my point here: mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:56 PM

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM

As to the Jews… should I quote Pope Paul IV… or would that be more bashing? You can look it up yourself: Cum Nimis Absurdum.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:20 PM

Yes, Paul IV’s acts were nasty. As nasty as the incident of Edgardo Mortar. And yes, you are Catholic bashing, especially since nothing you are posting now bears any relationship to the discussion at hand.

What is your new religion, so that we can accord it the same respect?

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM

No, but I know all about you.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 6:43 PM

You wanna put me on The Rack to “Rack My Brain”?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:04 PM

C’mon, you had to laugh. That’s a pretty good one, don’t ya think? Some guy wrote that back in 2000.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 6:58 PM

Why would I smile at an epithet which appears targeted at Bobby Jindal?

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 7:05 PM

Dismissing Vatican II as non-binding on Catholics was one of the reasons the Holy See went nuts once that SSPX bishop’s past went public. According to Church teaching Vatican II is binding upon Catholics, as are all previous ecumenical councils.

JohnAGJ on March 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM

Where did I dismiss it? Pastoral and dogmatic are two very different things. Dogma does not change, discipline can and does. Priests were not universally called to be celibate until the 10th Century. Uncloistered sisters (as opposed to nuns) did not even exist until the 16th century or so. The specific wording (in the vernacular) of much of the even the Mass has changed for good reasons from time to time. These are disciplines, not dogmas.

And yes, the Holy See had a problem with the SSPX, but it was primarily about ordaining Bishops without permission from the Holy See, not so much about the Tridentine Latin Mass. You will notice that the Latin Mass has returned–discipline, not dogma.

mankai chooses to ignore the difference. He misstates a great deal, but claims his innocence. He is, by definition, and apostate, so he uses rhetoric to paint the Church as evil. mankai has discovered that in order for him to have his beliefs, he must oppose the Church, else his beliefs have no validity. His beliefs do not stand on their own merits, but only over and against the Church.

I don’t know who hurt him so badly that he has to lash out like a teenager against his parents, but it’s clear that by trolling here he makes himself feel important. Maybe a good visit to the confessional would help, but he will have to reach deep to find his humility first.

Or not. Some people never get it.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM

Yes, Paul IV’s acts were nasty. As nasty as the incident of Edgardo Mortar. And yes, you are Catholic bashing, especially since nothing you are posting now bears any relationship to the discussion at hand.

What is your new religion, so that we can accord it the same respect?

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 7:02 PM

Everything brought out here is relevant to this post. Does Chaput scold catholics for not knowing their own decrees?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM

…my devoutly Catholic parents…

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM

That would seem to explain everything.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM

Vat II openly contradicts the decrees of Popes and Councils. So in the spirit of the Pastoral Council, Catholics should feel free to object to its conclusions.

By extension, any reference in the current catechism to Vat II may also be objected to. We can then conclude that Vat II’s statements of salvation (re: Muslims, atheists, etc.) may very well be in error… and therefore the Popes submitting themselves to those doctrines may be in error on the very question of salvation itself.

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 6:56 PM

No, it doesn’t contradict anything, and again, you confuse dogma with discipline. You choose to “extend” your thoughts, not those of the Church. Nobody, to my knowledge, has given you the grace of infallibility. No Popes have been in error on salvation. You, on the other hand…

Say hi to your folks, and next time stay and pray a rosary with them. Might help what ails you and will surely make them feel better.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

In America, you’ll have a difficult time reconciling the ideas of individual liberty, smaller government, and the Catholic Church. They’re really incompatible, ya know? One just doesn’t fit there.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

In America, you’ll have a difficult time reconciling the ideas of individual liberty, smaller government, and the Catholic Church. They’re really incompatible, ya know? One just doesn’t fit there.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

Horse crap.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 7:14 PM

No, it doesn’t contradict anything, and again, you confuse dogma with discipline. You choose to “extend” your thoughts, not those of the Church. Nobody, to my knowledge, has given you the grace of infallibility. No Popes have been in error on salvation. You, on the other hand…

Say hi to your folks, and next time stay and pray a rosary with them. Might help what ails you and will surely make them feel better.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

Sorry dude, you’re stuck with your doctrine. No matter how much you try to explain it away, you’re still stuck with it now. You’ve been shown the truth, deal with it…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM

Enjoyong the fun… but my devoutly Catholic parents need me to pick up some medicine for them… and I love them more than Hot Air!

:)

mankai on March 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM

There’s still hope for the prodigal son.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 7:21 PM

You guys are men to mankai. He’s only telling you the truth.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM

The truth shall set you free…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM

So anyway…

It is a shame that any voter that casts a vote to directly or indirectly assist the act of abortion, euthanasia, in-vitro fertilization and selection, or any life dismissing act.

You can’t be a little bit conservative, you are either a conservative or you are anything else with some conservative ideologies.

Conservatism has been attacked by haters of the Pledge of Allegiance and promoters Sex Education in public schools since the ’60s. Today the textbooks are complete with revisionist history. All of it devalues faith. When faith becomes cheapened, voters cast votes in non-faithful ways.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 7:26 PM

Personally, I think the RCC could accomplish a lot by refusing to give Ted Kennedy a Catholic burial.

I hope they do it.

radiofreevillage on March 22, 2009 at 7:29 PM

Couldn’t agree with you more. Sme thing on the patriotic front as well.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM

In America, you’ll have a difficult time reconciling the ideas of individual liberty, smaller government, and the Catholic Church. They’re really incompatible, ya know? One just doesn’t fit there.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM

Horse crap.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 7:14 PM

Some of the founders thought so, and through the years the fear of Catholics as papists has lead to discrimination. Of course Catholics are able to practice their faith and serve their country, but when some call for Bishops to tie the sacraments to a specific vote in an election, they can stoke the sentiments that lead to accusations of papistry.

dedalus on March 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM

Wow, I knew it would be lively, but I could never have imagined the appearance on the scene of mankai.

Mankai, you are correct in that what you have been doing is not exactly bashing, so I won’t call you a Catholic basher. Instead, what you are doing reminds me more of the pompous scribes and pharisees who arrogantly questioned Jesus thinking they had trapped him into giving an answer they could denounce with their prideful command of Scripture and The Law. Thus elevating themselves while seemingly putting that upstart Christ in His place.

Every word out of the mouth of a pope is not infallible and binding upon the faithful Catholic. But, the Holy Spirit would never allow complete error to be taught. Catholic theology is like a room darkened at night. As the sun rises, objects are illuminated, at first shadowy and indistinct, then gradually becoming more fully illuminated so that the objects become clearer and easier to see. You believe you have dealt the trump card with these quotes but all you have done is proven Chaput’s point. Poorly catechized Catholics will be overwhelmed with this and not know what to think. It is a tool used by dissenters to confound and confuse.

I will not take the time to break down each and everyone of them as they are complex and need more attention than a simple posting on a blog. But, then that is your intention I would guess, to flood the blog with these quotes, create chaos and doubt while people unprepared to meet your challenges must leave them undisputed, thereby giving them some credence.

Just as it is said that an ex-smoker is the worst type of crusader, so true it is that an ex-Catholic is the worst type of dissenter.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Stop bashing mankai, especially when he’s not here. Do your explaining away some other time. Move ahead.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM

For those who are not Roman Catholic, you must understand that while the Bible is part of the faith, it really is not central to the living church, only a part of it.
Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 3:20 PM

You couldn’t be more wrong. The Bible is one of the three pillars of the Catholic faith and is contradicted by the other two pillars, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

The Bible is the Catholic book, a holy collection of the promises of the Old Testament which find fulfillment in the New Testament. The Bible and the Church are no some thing, they are someone, Jesus, the Word of God made flesh.
Believing that Catholics somehow are less reverent of the written word is an incorrect understanding of the faith.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM

Mankai, you are correct in that what you have been doing is not exactly bashing, so I won’t call you a Catholic basher. Instead, what you are doing reminds me more of the pompous scribes and pharisees who arrogantly questioned Jesus thinking they had trapped him into giving an answer they could denounce with their prideful command of Scripture and The Law. Thus elevating themselves while seemingly putting that upstart Christ in His place.

That’s basically what he’s doing. That’s why I called him a troll.

Hot Air has a Religion Problem.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM

You forgot to mention that the lost souls that do return to the Church work hard to reform others lost souls as well.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM

At least get it right – these priests were homosexual pedophiles. There have always been and probably always will be homosexual priests (just as in every other profession). The problem was the homosexual abuse of children, not sexual relations between consenting adults.

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 4:01 PM

The victims of these priests were mostly post pubescent teen boys, not children.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:46 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM

You misread. Every week I hear and know that it is ‘The Word of the Lord.’ As you state it is one of the pillars, but therefore I correctly stated it is not the center.

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM

You forgot to mention that the lost souls that do return to the Church work hard to reform others lost souls as well.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM

Yes, that’s true. “Reverts” as they are known usually have a thirst to know and understand all the complexities of the faith that those who are born into and never leave the faith lack. It is not that reverts are holier or more devout, it is that they are aware of how easily the faith is distorted and once they have opened their eyes to the distortions, they become obsessed with learning everything they can. I know, I am one.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:49 PM

Jvette,

Thanks for the inspiration. I’ve seen and deeply considered (and without the benefit of parents) just about all other possible arguments, and now I find myself struggling towards confirmation at 64.

The profound depth of Catholic scholarship has always been the strongest of attractions.

Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear,
And Grace that fear relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 7:57 PM

You couldn’t be more wrong. The Bible is one of the three pillars of the Catholic faith and is NEVER contradicted by the other two pillars, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium.

My bad, sorry:(

You misread. Every week I hear and know that it is ‘The Word of the Lord.’ As you state it is one of the pillars, but therefore I correctly stated it is not the center.

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM

I understood what you said, the problem is that it is the belief of too many that Catholics don’t know or even ignore the written Word, in deference to Tradition and the Magisterium.

It is important that non-Catholics understand that Catholics do in fact read Scripture and that it is one of the three most important foundations of our faith.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:58 PM

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 7:57 PM

warbaby, I wish you well, and pray that your struggles will lead you to a strong faith, the kind that brings peace even when the storms of dissent seem overwhelming. I struggled with doubts as my husband of 20 years was strongly anti-Catholic. As I was learning the faith, he would undermine what I was learning with his misinformation. It worked out well though as it caused me to be vigilant in my search for truth.

He has accepted that I have returned to the faith of my youth and even tries to work through his own prejudices now.

One of the best things I did for myself was to quit letting attacks like those here cause me grief. Now, when someone puts out invective like that, I use it as an opportunity to hone my own understanding and theology.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:06 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM

You’re not making any converts here. If you want to be a catholic, go ahead. But stop trying to blow smoke up people’s arse….

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:13 PM

One of the best things I did for myself was to quit letting attacks like those here cause me grief. Now, when someone puts out invective like that, I use it as an opportunity to hone my own understanding and theology.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:06 PM

Nobody was attacking you…stop lying!!!!

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM

Nobody was attacking you…stop lying!!!!

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM

Except when you called all Catholics pedophiles, illegal immigrants, idolators, and drunken buffoon RoastBeefers.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM

Call me a bigot and you’ll get the same treatment my friend…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:25 PM

That’s basically what he’s doing. That’s why I called him a troll.

Hot Air has a Religion Problem.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM

I find HotAir to be no more a place of anti-Catholicism than most any open forum. It’s to be expected that the leading light of Christianity would be subject to attack from all corners. It can be tedious reading the same BS spewed over and over, but I know that is how misinformation is fed. I try, when I can, to dispel some of it, but it can be overwhelming.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

You guys are men to mankai. He’s only telling you the truth.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM

Yup. Always man up when the enemy is at the gates.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM

I find HotAir to be no more a place of anti-Catholicism than most any open forum. It’s to be expected that the leading light of Christianity would be subject to attack from all corners. It can be tedious reading the same BS spewed over and over, but I know that is how misinformation is fed. I try, when I can, to dispel some of it, but it can be overwhelming.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

It’s a management issue. Allahpundit and Ed have no problem kicking out anti-Muslim bigots. That’d make the website look very bad, and open up a huge target for liberals. Michelle Malkin would be forced to defend those comments on TV, etc. But when it comes to Catholicism, the management can’t seem to apply the same treatment.

That’s why Hot Air has a Religion Problem.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM

Sorry, the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 313 or 396 A.D., not by Jesus Christ. That probably one reson why the catholic church has remained what it is to this day, a church of pedophile priests, idolaters, Illegal Aliens, and drunken buffoon RoastBeefers.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 2:02 PM

If this isn’t an example of anti-Catholic bigotry, what would you have to say to be considered a bigot?

Call me a bigot and you’ll get the same treatment my friend…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:25 PM

You are an anti-Catholic bigot.

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 8:40 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Anything anyone can say, do, or write to fight the suppression of Church by the State and the fallen away is a very best foot forward.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 8:40 PM

Stop bashing mankai, especially when he’s not here. Do your explaining away some other time. Move ahead.

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM

This is a blog. Non-real-time blog. Last I saw, there were no rules about only responding to a person’s post when they were “here”. There are no green or red lights. We’ll move on when the audience as a whole says we do.

Besides, you just defended him, so the whole thing gets another quarter in the meter, right?

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Hang in their, Lady. Your evident maturity is the best possible example for all concerned.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 8:42 PM

Anything anyone can say, do, or write to fight the suppression of Church by the State and the fallen away is a very best foot forward.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 8:40 PM

Exactly, we must do what we can. The Lord does not ask us to solve all the problems, but to do what we can, with what we have and with who and where we are.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:44 PM

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM

And anti-Semites (real ones, not just people accused of being one).

mankei is anti-Catholic, but he has yet to resort to the type of conversation (down low and personal) that gets you banned here. Be glad this place isn’t like dailykos where you can get banned on a whim.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 8:44 PM

You are an anti-Catholic bigot.

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 8:40 PM

So do you really believe that the juice and wafer ACTUALLY CHANGES into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM

Hang in their, Lady. Your evident maturity is the best possible example for all concerned.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 8:42 PM

thank you warbaby. I do not speak until I have asked the Holy Spirit what I should say. It is not maturity so much as a peace amidst the storm. If only I could share that gift with everyone. But, it is the Spirit which converts the heart and not any words I may utter. It is my prayer that He will use me to help one who teeters to steady their faith. Many here who harbor hatred for the Church and by extension her members are those who have hardened their hearts. But, many more are those like dedalus, who are seeking answers to honest questions. It is they whom I pray that we can help.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM

You’d have been faithful minnions for the Inquisition in 10th century Europe…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:51 PM

So do you really believe that the juice and wafer ACTUALLY CHANGES into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM

I do not believe that you care one whit what I or other Catholics here believe. Not out of fear for our souls or out of honest curiosity do you pose your spurious questions, but out of a desire to agitate. Your name should be RealObtuse.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Perhaps I have led a sheltered life. On a few threads here, I have encountered the most vindictive anti-Catholic bigotry I have ever encountered. I had to take a break from it.

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Put ’em on The Rack. That’ll persuade (help) them….

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Thank you for posting this Ed…as a Catholic that converted in adulthood…Pelosi and her ilk sicken me…

DCJeff on March 22, 2009 at 8:55 PM

So do you really believe that the juice and wafer ACTUALLY CHANGES into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM
I do not believe that you care one whit what I or other Catholics here believe. Not out of fear for our souls or out of honest curiosity do you pose your spurious questions, but out of a desire to agitate. Your name should be RealObtuse.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

When the spirit moves you, just answer the question…

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:55 PM

ACTUALLY CHANGES into the ACTUAL body and blood of Jesus?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM

The Body,Blood,Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ – Yes!

clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 9:00 PM

The Body,Blood,Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ – Yes!

clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 9:00 PM

Now, was that so difficult?

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 9:03 PM

Verse 1.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 9:06 PM

Transubstantiation

The Roman Catholic Church through history approached her faith life with the clarification of language. That is, she translated the essentials of revealed faith into the vocabulary of living language.

To the revealed Word that there is “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” the Church labeled the belief “Trinity.”
To the revealed Word that the “Son of God became man” the Church labeled the belief “Incarnation.”
To the revealed Word that the “blood of Christ spilled on Calvary saved us” the Church labeled the belief “Redemption.”
To the revealed Word that “my flesh is true food, my blood is true drink” the Church labeled the belief “Transubstantiation.”
Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible.

Jesus (omnipotent God) said: “This is my body; this is my blood.” And again Jesus said: “I am the bread of life;” “My flesh is true food; my blood is true drink;” “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood …;” etc.

Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood.

From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.

Similar to all of God’s Word, faith is essential. Faith in what? In the words of Jesus even though the bread does not look, feel, taste like flesh; even though the wine does not look, feel, taste like blood.

Medieval philosophers and theologians sought simply to label this simple biblical faith: Jesus said that bread is his body and wine is his blood even though it did not appear to change into visible flesh and blood.

Transubstantiation means the substance part of the bread and wine elements changes; but the accidental parts–sight, taste, smell, touch–do not. Catholics believe that since Jesus said it and He is God, he can do it. They believe! “Transubstantiation” merely labels it.

In everyday life, it is not at all uncommon to believe in things man cannot perceive by the senses: wind, electricity, love, peace, etc. All the more when Jesus says it.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap060500.htm#ap060503

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 9:19 PM

Perhaps I have led a sheltered life. On a few threads here, I have encountered the most vindictive anti-Catholic bigotry I have ever encountered. I had to take a break from it.

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Yeah, it can be bad here. But, I find that the Catholics who respond are very well versed in their faith and make honest attempts to engage those who fling their bigotry so freely here.

Whenever I see a post here with a Catholic connection, my heart pounds a little because I know what is coming and that before I wade in, I must put on the armor of Christ. Apologetics and defense of the faith are not for the feint of heart. But, I take comfort that for now the only weapons I must dodge are verbal. Thousands died in defense of the faith, I can handle a little verbal jousting with the impotent twits, here and elsewhere, who think they are smarter than two thousand years of Christianity.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM

mankei is anti-Catholic, but he has yet to resort to the type of conversation (down low and personal) that gets you banned here. Be glad this place isn’t like dailykos where you can get banned on a whim.

unclesmrgol on March 22, 2009 at 8:44 PM

What about RealDemocrat? He’s been quite open about his bigotry.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:24 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM

Keep up the good work!!

clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 9:25 PM

If history is any guide, this thread will go at least 8-12 pages. Most, if not all, of it will consist of a single person or so bashing the Church and getting away with saying the most offensive things imaginable. All unpunished here at Hot Air.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:26 PM

There is no real Catholic education system anymore. There are not enough nuns or brothers to staff one. And in the cities they are closing schools left and right, so a K-12 Catholic education is a thing of the past, and in the long run this will harm the church here in the USA.

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 3:20 PM

When I read the ignorant and vain posts of men like Allahpundit and Madison, and the thousands of other blasphemous scrawlings by “Catholic-educated” atheists, I can only say that the death of that medieval fraud is long overdue.

Chaput decries the state of Catholic education that has allowed people to fundamentally misunderstand their own faith, and scolds the church for allowing itself to become more concerned with membership than truth.

Considering the eight-hundred-year inquisition against “heretics,” I believe that statement qualifies as “supreme irony.”

TMK on March 22, 2009 at 9:26 PM

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:26 PM

It isn’t for Hot Air nor for us to punish. Though we are called to stand and defend and I think Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM said it best:

Thousands died in defense of the faith, I can handle a little verbal jousting with the impotent twits, here and elsewhere, who think they are smarter than two thousand years of Christianity.

clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 9:19 PM

I love the incense.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM

Just look back on all the past horrors that Catholicism has survived and continued beyond.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

It isn’t for Hot Air nor for us to punish.

clarifides on March 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

Then why has Hot Air banned people for saying less about Muslims? I’ve no problem exposing the hypocrisy here. It is a management problem. They’re unable to provide the bigots a line that cannot be crossed.

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:34 PM

And also, frankly, it’s fricking ridiculous that a supposedly mainstream conservative blog is infested with bigots who can’t keep a lid on it when it comes to their personal issues of Catholicism.

It’s not for nothing that liberal blogs are well known for their anti-Semitism. Are conservative blogs going to become well known for their anti-Catholicism? For once, I’d like to be able to browse a mainstream conservative blog and not have to fricking defend my religion every week (if not every fricking day).

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

Hatred not only dehumanizes the object of hate, but also the hater. When faced with hatred and persecution, each of us holds onto something to keep ourselves going, even in the most bleak of circumstances.

There is much to draw from to inspire, but sometimes I have a feeling of sadness, not only for the objects of hate, but also for the haters. What an incredible waste of humanity.

Symphony No. 3, “Symphony of Sorrowful Songs,” Op.36
Second Movement: Lento e largo – Tranquillissimo
by Henryk Górecki

Lyrics:

Mamo, nie płacz, nie.
Niebios Przeczysta Królowo.
Ty zawsze wspieraj mnie.

Zdrowaś Mario.

The words are a prayer inscribed on a wall of Cell No. 3, in the basement of the Gestapo’s headquarters in Zadopane, Poland. “Mother, do not cry, no. Queen of Heaven, protect me always.” Beneath the prayer was the signature of Helena Wanda Blazusiakówna, and the words “18 years old, imprisoned since 26 September, 1944.” She did not survive. The final words of her prayer is beginning of the “Ave Maria” in Polish.

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 9:42 PM

Just look back on all the past horrors that Catholicism has survived and continued beyond.

ericdijon on March 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM

That is because the power of the Church is supernatural. Her cornerstone is Jesus. He knew what the course of the church would be and he promised the gates of hell would not prevail. It is no surprise to Him that some of the worst attacks on His church have come from within by people who believed they were guided by the Holy Spirit.

The chafe is winnowed from the wheat and the weeds allowed to grow together with the grain. St. Ignatius of Loyola spoke of the discernment of the Spirit. When evil enters the church, though it seems to have a solid foothold, the faithful discern the truth with the help of the Holy Spirit and the Church emerges stronger and purer than before. It may even take centuries.

It is amazing how many people believe the Church holds herself up as perfect. But, that is not what she claims. She claims the fullness of truth and confesses she is populated with sinful men and women and has been from the beginning.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:49 PM

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 9:42 PM

Thank you so much for this link. This truly adult music is an astonishing experience.

How exquisite that the conductor of this performance is John Axelrod, whose execrable namesake has befouled everything he ever touched.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 9:56 PM

And also, frankly, it’s fricking ridiculous that a supposedly mainstream conservative blog is infested with bigots who can’t keep a lid on it when it comes to their personal issues of Catholicism.

It’s not for nothing that liberal blogs are well known for their anti-Semitism. Are conservative blogs going to become well known for their anti-Catholicism? For once, I’d like to be able to browse a mainstream conservative blog and not have to fricking defend my religion every week (if not every fricking day).

Sydney Carton on March 22, 2009 at 9:38 PM

It would be nice to have a discussion of the Catholic’s role in politics and society without having to defend against the slings and arrows constantly thrown our way. This subject could have been a real discussion by Catholics as to what our role is and how we can live within the American system of government as faithful Catholics.

The threads get hijacked by people who are not interested in informative conversation but would rather throw bombs that obscure the real lessons to be learned. I sometimes think that whenever a Catholic thread is started, it is like throwing us to the lions for the entertainment of watching us fight for out lives.

That being said, we must gird ourselves knowing that Jesus never tired, never let his weakness foil his mission. Let us be for each other Simon, the Cyrene, helping each other to carry the cross of defending our faith from those who would impugn it.

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 9:58 PM

gobblemom on March 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM

No offense to you, ma’am, but I’ll take the centuries-old, intellectually rigorous faith of Roman Catholicism to the ‘inerrant Word of God’ sloth propagated by other denominations.

The notion that all divinely inspired ideas ceased over 2,000 years ago is kind of silly.
Sheerq on March 22, 2009 at 7:01 PM

and

I understood what you said, the problem is that it is the belief of too many that Catholics don’t know or even ignore the written Word, in deference to Tradition and the Magisterium.

It is important that non-Catholics understand that Catholics do in fact read Scripture and that it is one of the three most important foundations of our faith. Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 7:58 PM

Thank you, Sheerq, I believe your comment proved my point. Intellect changes over the years and centuries – just ask Galileo. And I never said that there haven’t been any divinely inspired ideas in the last 2000 years, there have been a great many (the Apostles’ & Nicene Creeds are two well known ones; I even believe that the US Constitution was divinely inspired.), but as Sola Scriptura, all other writings or teachings must be tested against the Bible for truth, and never be elevated above the Bible.

I only can draw upon my observations of and conversations with my Catholic friends in our Bible Study. They have expressed their frustration that their education in the Roman Catholic church focused more on Tradition and Magisterium than Scripture. But it appears that RC’s are changing that focus with the younger generations, and for that, I applaud them.

I believe that Chaput’s assertions are basically true for all members of Christian society. We have allowed culture to distract us from our faith life; we have time for TV, movies, internet, videogames, work, play…but no time to spend in Bible study, worship or in prayer. We have allowed preachers to pervert the Word of God from the pulpit (think Rev. Wright).

As Christians, we need to figure out WHAT we believe and WHY we believe it, and be ready to give an ACCOUNT of our faith whenever necessary and back it up with SCRIPTURE. I don’t think many “Christians” today can do that.

As for Holy Communion, Jesus says, “This is My Body…This is My Blood.” He doesn’t have to argue about what the definition of ‘is’ is.

PS. Congrats and Goodluck Warbaby – you rock!

gobblemom on March 22, 2009 at 10:01 PM

He nailed it. “Leading by example,” is the best way to have others want what you have to offer. Unfortunately, many of our religious institutions, of all faiths and denominations, have not lived up to what their founders taught. In the case of the Church, getting back to the basics, as taught by the Master 2000 years ago, would do wonders to re-invigorate their faith and would benefit all those that adopted them. Studying the Sermon ON The Mount, with an open mind, and asking, “How does this pertain to me, and how can I structure my life to live according to its’ teaching?” would be an excellent first step.

DL13 on March 22, 2009 at 10:05 PM

Loxodonta on March 22, 2009 at 9:42 PM

Thank you so much for this link. This truly adult music is an astonishing experience.

How exquisite that the conductor of this performance is John Axelrod, whose execrable namesake has befouled everything he ever touched.

warbaby on March 22, 2009 at 9:56 PM

Ditto

Jvette on March 22, 2009 at 10:06 PM

You’re not making any converts here. If you want to be a catholic, go ahead. But stop trying to blow smoke up people’s arse….

RealDemocrat on March 22, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Oh, put a cork in it, you bigot. mankai, whom you defend so uneloquently, is trying to make converts. We are not converting you or anyone else by making positive statements about what we believe.

And yes, the host and the wine do indeed become the Body, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior. If they didn’t, we would not be Catholic.

We pray for you bigots, but we don’t have to put up with your trash. Don’t go away mad, just go away.

tcn on March 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM

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