Damn, that Obama is a clever general. In the first two months of this year 19 U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq, down from 148 in the same period two years ago, Major-General David Perkins told a joint news conference……

It’s been a tough battle in Iraq, and NOT A SINGLE DEMOCRAT HELPED US in this fight. NOT A SINGLE ONE!

apco on March 18, 2009 at 1:17 AM

Lieberman?

Wonder if they’ll put up a statue of Charles DeGaulle to replace the Saddam one that was torn down?

So what you are saying, Debbie, is freedom for me but not for thee? Or are you saying realpolitik should trump freedom? I’m going to have go with W on this one; our realpolitik back the ’50s with the Shah is what built half of the Iranian mess to begin with.

flashoverride on March 18, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Only a complete ignoramus on the Middle East (and a complete panderer to Islam), like Bush–who thinks that the Mid-East is the Mid-west, as apparently do you–would make such a dumb statement. In case you didn’t realize, “We hold these truths to be self-evident . . .” ain’t anything applicable to the Islamic world. Oh, and removing the Shah and giving Iran “free” elections resulted on a lot of great things, didn’t it? Ask the Christians and Sunnis of Iraq what kind of freedom they have. Ask them in ten years after we’re completely outta there (and so are they)–and it’s greater Iran.

Perhaps the Iraqi people will change their view over time, just like the Left has towards National Socialism coming back in all of its forms under folks they like in DC. Strange hos much that is reviled as a word, and yet done as an outcome these days. So in a few decades Iraqis will have a chance to look over things and put a bit more perspective on things… however, looking at what is happening here, they might not follow our example and may have to offer us help on building representative democracy in a multicultural society that supports capitalism. Because we will need that the way things are going…

I warned that we should not have democratic elections and hand this country over to Iranian-backed Shi’ites, and instead should have turned it over to a pro-U.S. Shah-like dictator.

Contrast that of course with this

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

So what you are saying, Debbie, is freedom for me but not for thee? Or are you saying realpolitik should trump freedom? I’m going to have go with W on this one; our realpolitik back the ’50s with the Shah is what built half of the Iranian mess to begin with.

Debbie Schlussel on March 18, 2009 at 10:02 AM

Soooo… Bush’s fault?

Love how it follows on so well from the post just above it, too.

Shall be interesting to see what comes of it, nevertheless.

What are you ranting about? Turkey is muslim. We all know that. I explained that Ataturk was a devoted muslim, showing that muslims took the secular positions. So what? Turkey is what it is, and we all see it.

So as it pertains to Iraq, what is your point re: Turkey? That Turkey is anomaly wherein people who are religiously muslim act in a “secular” fashion, and Iraq can not be because…. ??

And, islam is a political ideology with an attendant mythology. It demands the power of state, where ever it’s found. Turkey is one of the best examples of that.

Where to start… You know what? Nothing I say will change your mind. It’s pointless to argue with you, because you think just like a liberal in this regard – you know so much that isn’t so. I will however point out that Vatican is a seperate nation-state and that Mecca is not.

Clinton left the illusion of success, which was shattered quickly on September 11, 2001 and the bursting of the dot com bubble that revealed it was built on Enron and WorldCom-like fraud and deceit.

President Bush, in contrast, left in a media constructed cloud of disgrace, and now as the dust clears, his success grows apparent.

Clinton, the emergent miserable failure, or Bush, the emergent visionary who just might have turned the tides of history for the better?

I want show trials for every democrat who obstructed the war effort.

I want perp-walks.

They asked for it.

flashoverride on March 18, 2009 at 7:40 AM

What are you ranting about? Turkey is muslim. We all know that. I explained that Ataturk was a devoted muslim, showing that muslims took the secular positions. So what? Turkey is what it is, and we all see it.

And, islam is a political ideology with an attendant mythology. It demands the power of state, where ever it’s found. Turkey is one of the best examples of that.

That’s better.

And yet,the Left are busy,rewriting all of Bush’s
terms,like ‘Occupation’,'Enemy Combatants’,and
now the newest,’Man Made Disaster’ to replace
‘Terrorists’!

Ya know,to people and thugs around the planet,
WORDS do have MEANING!

And,Liberals claim to be the champions of the little guy,
and human rights,

but once their in power,everybody,and countries are being
thrown under da bus!

Once the Liberals are in power,the only opinion is that of
a LIBERAL WORLD VIEW,and Team Obama is governoring in that
manner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Modern Turkey is a nation in which the (almost entirely mulsim) military is the supreme power. Ataturk, who was a muslim who loved islam (as opposed to a muslim who hated it?), understood that islam and modernity cannot mix (this of course would be news to Ataturk), so he fashioned Turkey a secular state (comprised mainly of muslims), with a very secular, very strong military (comprised almost entirely of muslims) and charged that military with maintaining the secular character of the government for when islam tried to take over the power of state, as islam is oriented towards doing. This was eventually codified into the Turkish Constitution, only to be removed around 7 years ago, to put the Turkish more into line with the EU’s requirement for civilian supremacy (though the military is still, de facto, the supreme power in the country). I will note that Turkey has been on another slide towards islamic rule ever since that Constitutional change (but has yet to turn into Iran).

As I’m sure you’re aware, the military had to disband 4 governments that were crawling with islamists and will likely have to do it again, as the current one has been living on the edge. The outstanding question is, “Will it?” No one knows.

Turkey exists as the best example for self-rule with democratic processes in the islamic world, but it is only that way because of the extremely secular nature of the military (again, comprised almost entirely of muslims, apparently the self-hating kind) and the military supremacy that was the real basis for its governing structure (see: Pakistan. You’ll have that in tribal areas with restricted means of command and control or information dissemination). To me, Turkey is a perfect example of the best that one can hope to achieve in terms of the self-rule of an islamic society with individual liberties – but that requires a strictly secular set of institutions (again, comprised of people who are almost entirely self-hating muslims) that remain charged with keeping an eye on the islamic influence in civilian affairs and power over the civilian governments. But these ideas are anathema to Western thoughts on proper government.

I’m not sure what comparisons you were thinking of, with respect to the Ottoman Empire. Two different worlds, really. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you were thinking about?

I just want to stress, I think that Bush did the right thing going into Iraq. That had to be done. If he turns out correct in turning Iraq into, even, a European style democracy then that will have huge … gigantic benefits for all (not least of which, the Iraqis themselves). I just don’t see islam, or sectarian arab and Kurdish ressures, allowing that (Because I don’t think that Arabs can be humans, what with being muslims and all). But Bush will certainly be viewed as correct in invading Iraq and taking down the Baathists. No question about that, at all.

FIFY. I don’t know what’s worse, your incessant inability to recognize that Turks, even the “secular military” ones, are almost entirely muslim, or MB4’s lack of knowledge of the muslim “world” as it were and incessant need to quote other people.

Also, conflating the Koran with Mein Kampf? Nice. Because those Nazis that systematically murdered 6 million people weren’t christians, they were Nazis! Isn’t equating political systems with organized religions fun?

It’s been a tough battle in Iraq, and NOT A SINGLE DEMOCRAT HELPED US in this fight. NOT A SINGLE ONE!

apco on March 18, 2009 at 1:17 AM

Not only that, but the opposition of Democrats during this fight almost certainly got both U.S. soldiers and innocent Iraqis killed.
They have a lot of answer for.

Nice to see that Democracy is working in Iraq and that that tyrant Saddam is long gone.
U.S.A. under Bush–you done good!

Bush was right. It must just kill these people to admit that.