Video: The most relentlessly upbeat Iraq news segment you’ll ever see

Modern Turkey is a nation in which the (almost entirely mulsim) military is the supreme power. Ataturk, who was a muslim who loved islam (as opposed to a muslim who hated it?), understood that islam and modernity cannot mix (this of course would be news to Ataturk), so he fashioned Turkey a secular state (comprised mainly of muslims), with a very secular, very strong military (comprised almost entirely of muslims) and charged that military with maintaining the secular character of the government for when islam tried to take over the power of state, as islam is oriented towards doing. This was eventually codified into the Turkish Constitution, only to be removed around 7 years ago, to put the Turkish more into line with the EU’s requirement for civilian supremacy (though the military is still, de facto, the supreme power in the country). I will note that Turkey has been on another slide towards islamic rule ever since that Constitutional change (but has yet to turn into Iran).

As I’m sure you’re aware, the military had to disband 4 governments that were crawling with islamists and will likely have to do it again, as the current one has been living on the edge. The outstanding question is, “Will it?” No one knows.

Turkey exists as the best example for self-rule with democratic processes in the islamic world, but it is only that way because of the extremely secular nature of the military (again, comprised almost entirely of muslims, apparently the self-hating kind) and the military supremacy that was the real basis for its governing structure (see: Pakistan. You’ll have that in tribal areas with restricted means of command and control or information dissemination). To me, Turkey is a perfect example of the best that one can hope to achieve in terms of the self-rule of an islamic society with individual liberties – but that requires a strictly secular set of institutions (again, comprised of people who are almost entirely self-hating muslims) that remain charged with keeping an eye on the islamic influence in civilian affairs and power over the civilian governments. But these ideas are anathema to Western thoughts on proper government.

I’m not sure what comparisons you were thinking of, with respect to the Ottoman Empire. Two different worlds, really. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you were thinking about?

I just want to stress, I think that Bush did the right thing going into Iraq. That had to be done. If he turns out correct in turning Iraq into, even, a European style democracy then that will have huge … gigantic benefits for all (not least of which, the Iraqis themselves). I just don’t see islam, or sectarian arab and Kurdish ressures, allowing that (Because I don’t think that Arabs can be humans, what with being muslims and all). But Bush will certainly be viewed as correct in invading Iraq and taking down the Baathists. No question about that, at all.

FIFY. I don’t know what’s worse, your incessant inability to recognize that Turks, even the “secular military” ones, are almost entirely muslim, or MB4′s lack of knowledge of the muslim “world” as it were and incessant need to quote other people.

Also, conflating the Koran with Mein Kampf? Nice. Because those Nazis that systematically murdered 6 million people weren’t christians, they were Nazis! Isn’t equating political systems with organized religions fun?

flashoverride on March 18, 2009 at 7:40 AM

from Schlussle’s site,

I warned that we should not have democratic elections and hand this country over to Iranian-backed Shi’ites, and instead should have turned it over to a pro-U.S. Shah-like dictator.

Contrast that of course with this

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

So what you are saying, Debbie, is freedom for me but not for thee? Or are you saying realpolitik should trump freedom? I’m going to have go with W on this one; our realpolitik back the ’50s with the Shah is what built half of the Iranian mess to begin with.

flashoverride on March 18, 2009 at 12:22 PM