Santelli: Forget the stupid AIG bonuses and get angry about the bailouts
posted at 6:00 pm on March 17, 2009 by Allahpundit
Via Greg Hengler and Townhall. The boss has been hammering away at this same point for the better part of 24 hours, but I suspect she and Santelli are both expecting too much if they think public outrage will transfer from the bonuses to bailouts generally. The One has a trump card he can play with the latter that he can’t with the former — namely, necessity, the idea that the fragility and complexity of today’s financial world ensures that if any one pillar goes down, the whole structure will come down with it. Since no one really understands the magnitude of the problem, no one’s in a position to seriously challenge that hypothesis. Hence the outsized outrage for what amounts to chump change in the form of the bonuses, a rare aspect of the crisis that people can easily understand and channel their anger into. I wonder when the next TARP infusion into AIG will be.
Blowback
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Good to see Rick Santelli still alive and well.
carbon_footprint on March 17, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Absolutely no reason whatsoever on God’s green earth why it can’t be both.
Kent18 on March 17, 2009 at 6:01 PM
and Allah, I bet you are really jonesing for a Meghan McCain post about now.
carbon_footprint on March 17, 2009 at 6:02 PM
It’s the bailout, stupid.
See, I’m clever like Carville.
myrenovations on March 17, 2009 at 6:04 PM
+100 I was thinking that same thing.
upinak on March 17, 2009 at 6:04 PM
Again, we need to stop thinking of AIG as a bailout and start thinking of it as a purchase which it was. The Government bought it lock, stock and barrel. They own it and the CEO they put in place runs it. The bonuses were approved by the original Board of Directors and ratified by the new BoD (The US Congress).
TheBigOldDog on March 17, 2009 at 6:06 PM
And what percentage of the AIG funds have gone to foreign banks? But no one talks about that.
Agghh, what’s for dinner?
Scotsman on March 17, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Speak the truth Santelli to the minions of Soros! Will he be at the Tea Party??
Palin/Santelli 2012!!
jencab on March 17, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Allah, I recommend Beck’s opening segment on this very issue today which breaks down in to simple terms just how stupid this is, when we actually sent some $40 billion to overseas banks as part of the AIG bailout, not to mention tens of billions to banks here that already had their own bailouts.
Does the measly (by comparison) bonus stuff suck? But contracts are contracts, and the bailouts themselves are the true outrage.
RightWinged on March 17, 2009 at 6:08 PM
Exactly, these incompetent idiots in the Democrat Congress gave them the money in the first place.
And the incompetent idiot in the White House signed the Bill.
Congress and the White House should prove to the American people that they can be trusted before they blow a dime more.
Corruption and incompetence two flavor in one, in the absolutely worthless Democrat Party.
NoDonkey on March 17, 2009 at 6:09 PM
The Federal government is out of control.
We are in a dangerous situation as a nation.
We have a power hungry incompetent Marxist as POTS.
God have mercy on this nation!
JellyToast on March 17, 2009 at 6:09 PM
A $1,000,000 bonus is far from stupid when Americans are getting laid off day after day.
Funny how we are never supposed to be angry at or question the corporate machine, only government.
Why can’t it be both?
cornfedbubba on March 17, 2009 at 6:10 PM
“These Billions of pork are a small part of the budget.”
-Joe Donk on earmarks
“These bonuses are an outrage and a waste of millions”
-Joe Donk on AIG contractual bonuses
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 6:10 PM
From Obama’s philosophical point of view, what is the difference between the bonuses issued to AIG execs and the earmarks in Obamas budget? Obama claims the earmarks are just remnants of old business. Aren’t the bonuses the same? Payable for past performance and not relevant to their current problems?
Double standard?
redshirt on March 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM
without the breadmaker there is no government bread….
absent the interference on risk valuation by government and activists I’d perhaps agree…..
you are wanting to shoot the victim for caving with a gun to their head.
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM
Wag the tail anyone?
heshtesh on March 17, 2009 at 6:12 PM
Hear, HEAR!!!!
ladyingray on March 17, 2009 at 6:13 PM
bingo
“I uh cannot um be held to my promises on uh earmarks because er there was a promise to see er old business through um a what is the er word a contract um….or uh can’t hear myself good night now”
-Ogabe
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 6:13 PM
If they didn’t get their bonuses, from AIG or from the government “buying” AIG, it wouldn’t stop the layoffs.
Get mad just to get mad. It’s your blood pressure.
myrenovations on March 17, 2009 at 6:13 PM
forget about the bailout, what about the benefits for vets?
ctmom on March 17, 2009 at 6:13 PM
“Don’t uh look at that skinny fellow behind the curtain, I uh um uh cannot provide healthcare for um 24 million vets, BUT er uh I can take care of 300 million with no um drop in quality!”
-Ogabe
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 6:16 PM
I’d like to hear someone in the GOP compare the $165 million in AIG bonuses to the $91+ Million Franklin Raines hauled out of Fannie Mae….and then he pleaded guilty to cooking the books that generated those bonuses!!!!!!
Got it? One guy alone netted 55% of the AIG total, but it’s the AIG bonues that are getting everyone in a dither.
I recently saw a chart for the compensation totals of Raines, Jamie Gorelick, Johnson and 3 or 4 others. I’m pretty sure that, if you added up the packages for just those 6 or 7 “former Fannie executives” the total would be very close to all of AIG’s bonuses.
The Fannie/Freddie bailouts are really the nut of the problem that tanked the economy. And all those Dems were cooking the books, skimming their millions, and denying to high heaven that there was any problem.
And — given the lack of press coverage of the Raines scandal — I bet no more than 5% of the public has any idea how much those bums were paid while they were destroying the housing market.
jeanneb on March 17, 2009 at 6:18 PM
That card has been played continously for each particular crisis of the day. It isn’t restricted to AIG. I think it may have been overused by now, and people may start to realize Obama doesn’t know any more about the ramifications than we do.
a capella on March 17, 2009 at 6:18 PM
Iii dunno…
Even lefty LAist is calling it “outrage de jour” in regards to ANSWERLA’s idiotic AIG protest in downtown L.A. yesterday afternoon.
But of course, no less than four local news vans showed up to do live coverage of the huge crowd of 16 people.
Though the LA Times estimated the crowd somewhere between 15 and 15,000 people.
The Ugly American on March 17, 2009 at 6:18 PM
This guy is part of the problem, why should we listen to a derivatives trader who helped this problem along?
sethstorm on March 17, 2009 at 6:18 PM
Get angry with Congress who allowed the bonuses when they bailed out AIG.
d1carter on March 17, 2009 at 6:20 PM
That was airhead Contessa Brewer on the right – so to speak.
Didn’t she and Rick have a “moment” a couple weeks ago when he was a target of Obama’s media gang and she was a willing accomplice?
aquaviva on March 17, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Coming from The Precedent, people can easily challenge this hypothesis, since it’s clear that The Precedent has no idea about economics. The moron probably can’t understand anything more complex than arithmetic, and he’s going to be lecturing people on monetary/economic necessities? I don’t think so.
Whenever The Precedent says anything about the economy, all one needs to do is ask him what “profit and earnings ratios” are. Let the moron explain away the fact that he knows nothing about the markets and even less about 7th grade math – and one needs to frame it exactly that way, that most 7th graders understand that “and” is not the English translation for a ratio. But … people tiptoe around the intense retardation of The PRecedent … so we are stuck being ‘unable to argue’ against his hysterical ravings.
progressoverpeace on March 17, 2009 at 6:20 PM
why should we listen to people who gained tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions and sweetheart deals from the bailed out shops on any of this?
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 6:21 PM
People don’t want the bailout, but they have been told if they don’t do it all they know is lost, and so they go along because they don’t want to face the worst case scenario.
DFCtomm on March 17, 2009 at 6:21 PM
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Did you just learn the term, ‘derivatives’?
progressoverpeace on March 17, 2009 at 6:22 PM
President Zero thinks that everyone in this country is as stupid as those MSM news anchors who never can differentiate between millions and billions.
If they wanted to stop the bonuses, they certainly should have done that at the time of the bailout.
More importantly, this is just a diversion from the real disaster, like a cricket fart as compared to a lethal hand grenade.
It’s just tactics aimed at softening up the class warfare field to prepare America to tax and destroy the entire employer class, so Obama and his team of socialist whores can parasitize our entire economy, much like they already parasitize a large part of it.
With this communist cipher as its leader, if this nation were a stock, I’d short the crap out of it.
TexasJew on March 17, 2009 at 6:22 PM
The biggest obstacle on the right to big picture thinking is shillelagh-head O’Reilly.
whitetop on March 17, 2009 at 6:25 PM
AIG was taken over by Spitzer when he went after and succeeded in having Hank Greenberg removed and replaced by a government lackey who wrote those contracts. This is just another attempt to go after the individual and not the elitist organizations that have been created and fostered by the left.
nolapol on March 17, 2009 at 6:26 PM
The biggest obstacle on the right to big picture thinking is shillelagh-head O’Reilly.
whitetop on March 17, 2009 at 6:25 PM
But didn’t he singlehandedly lower the world price of oil in 2005, as he claimed? Amazing what a cable show host can do to scare those oil wells in Saudi Arabia!
TexasJew on March 17, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Isn’t the bailout just one big bonus for those that get the money?
albill on March 17, 2009 at 6:28 PM
And would probably exceed the GDP of some third-world countries.
whitetop on March 17, 2009 at 6:29 PM
when is the stupid goverment going to tell my boss how much to pay me .this will go over the head of liberals but here goes god bless the rich and thanks for all the work you give us.a poor man never hires anybody .that was simple did you get it .
wade underhile on March 17, 2009 at 6:29 PM
Santelli is right. The AIG suff is smoke and mirrors, to make us hate the wealthy…where is the outrage that Congress gave themselves pay raises? I bet that amount is more than what AIG paid themselves.
Conservative Voice on March 17, 2009 at 6:30 PM
I’ll take a stab at it……
…… Imagine a Democratic Social Engineering project that forces banks and lending institutions to give loans to people who can not possibly pay it back to buy houses.
Keep it under the radar and let it grow and fester for THIRTY YEARS.
……. and through government manipulation and interference, these loans eventually end up in bond and stock packages that are sold all over the world, and are promised to be backed up by the full faith and credit of the United States of America.
Once the “paper” is found to be worthless, the shock wave throughout the world market who bought the stocks and bonds threatens the world economy unless the United States makes good on the value, and spends Trillions of dollars of future generations prosperity all to prop up the initial thirty year old Liberal Democratic Social Engineering plan which is still in place.
Does that about cover it?
Seven Percent Solution on March 17, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Best posting day at HotAir in some time… Both AP and Ed are on it today…
While we’re at it, let’s not forget Obama’s new target; the American soldier…
Keemo on March 17, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Precisely – This is not about the bonus’s its about the administration trying to frame the media frenzy so you don’t criticize the bigger issue but focus on some irrelevant social envy detail that gets you hot and bothered.
FOCUS ON THE LOSS OF FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL.
nolapol on March 17, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Seven Percent Solution on March 17, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Yep… Good job.
Keemo on March 17, 2009 at 6:33 PM
Conservative Voice on March 17, 2009 at 6:30 PM
It’s all smoke & screen for many reasons & causes; most certainly to get the attention off Obama’s plan to make soldiers injured in battle pay for their own insurance.
Keemo on March 17, 2009 at 6:35 PM
AIG makes deal with employees for $165m worth of bonuses.
elgeneralisimo has no problem with this, in fact he wished he worked there.
AIG doesn’t have the money to pay the employees $165m.
Tough break, it’s a good thing his wish didn’t come true.
AIG makes deal with FedGov instead of going into receivership.
FedGov dumps money into AIG with very few strings.
AIG now has the money to pay their employees $165m.
The only problem that elgeneralisimo has is that the FedGov screwed the pooch with the deal that was made. And not by accident but by design.
elgeneralisimo on March 17, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Why would any man/woman want to join the military under a Liberal administration? Liberals despise anything in uniform, especially if the uniform comes with a weapon attached. Soldiers know this very well, the rest of America is slow to catch on.
Keemo on March 17, 2009 at 6:38 PM
Keemo on March 17, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Yes, among many many things.
Conservative Voice on March 17, 2009 at 6:38 PM
“I’m choked up with anger here.” Obama
All of these clown-politicians look like they are vying for the Best Actor Oscar nomination.
DrStock on March 17, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Porkulus now know as “Obama Money”
Bicyea on March 17, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Santelli better keep his mouth shut or the IRS will be auditing his tax returns or shut down the TV network for which he works.
SC.Charlie on March 17, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Eff U, Obama. Stand up to the stupid bailouts while you allow Mexico and Russia to put down your panties. Good show.
HornetSting on March 17, 2009 at 7:00 PM
Excuse me, BONUSES BECAUSE OF YOUR STUPID BAILOUTS. DUMMY.
HornetSting on March 17, 2009 at 7:01 PM
He’s alive! I was scared.
Joe Caps on March 17, 2009 at 7:03 PM
DON’T JUST SAY NO TO PRESIDENT OBAMA—-SAY HELL NO!
This man has a dangerous and calculated plan that needs to be stopped now before it’s too late. All Bush wanted to do is reform social security. Obama wants to put this nation in financial ruin in less than a year.
Rovin on March 17, 2009 at 7:07 PM
barry stood in that press conference yesterday right next to the guy who signed the checks, the guy the government said they wanted running the show if aig was going to get the bailout. He raved about the great job the government handpicked ceo was doing and in the next breath was demonizing aig. Does anyone else feel like we’ve woken up and it finally is 1984? The moron conservative talking heads like bill bennett were going right along with barry’s scam this morning, talking about the “bonus’s” while out country is rapidly turned into a fascist state. Now andrew cuom, one of the nastiest, corrupt individuals in the country, is getting involved in it. If this is a federal matter, why is the state attorney of ny getting involved? Because nothing matters anymore, the fascists are making up the rules as they go. Better liquidate any investments you have, get your hands on the money and stash it in a safe place. The end of the republic is near.
peacenprosperity on March 17, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Nasty Pelosi wants the money back!!!!!! Well, I want my money back from her.
bloggless on March 17, 2009 at 7:16 PM
Why? Does Santelli think that Republicans are unable to walk and chew gum at the same time?
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Well of course, when he is in effect defending the bonuses for a company that ran itself, and the taxpayers, into the ground. What a perfect opportunity to tie the two together for effectiveness, like explosives and a detonator, and he wants to separate them. Brilliant! Get ready for many more years of wandering in the desert searching for a clue.
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:26 PM
Yup ! ! Omama and Co are using it as a diversion.
Texyank on March 17, 2009 at 7:31 PM
No outrage here on the bonuses. We should have never given the bailout money. Once we did then it is up to the corporation to spend it. If they waste it then they are done.
UncleZeb on March 17, 2009 at 7:31 PM
ummm, has anyone seen the real numbers on these bonuses yet? Is it being paid out to hundreds or thousands of people? Is it a few getting alot , or alot getting some. That doesnt really matter, if it was a matter of what they were liable for when they bought into AIG. The bonuses are one-tenth of one percent of the entire bailout program anyway, this needs alot less attention and the porkulus needs alot more attention, according to it’s fiscal value. Obama could save jobs in this case by shutting up,getting off the socialist horse, and let the bonus makers make what they had coming already.It ptrobably isn’t bonus anyway, it’s probably earnings they had not been paid already and get washed out after a quarter has been finalized.Go after the real turkey here, CONGRESS and the MSM for making a mountain from a molehill once again so we dont see what these lying, theiving, coniving , fear-mongering, socialist, bastards are REALLY up to.
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on March 17, 2009 at 7:33 PM
He’s right. This is exactly why I can’t get all that worked up over Madoff when we’ve got even bigger criminals in our government!
Urban Infidel on March 17, 2009 at 7:34 PM
Good to see that I am not the only one who has not lost his mind.
Explosives and detonator, detonator and explosives. To blow things up you need both.
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:36 PM
This is just STUPID!
Many of the people getting those “bonuses” worked in areas that had nothing to do with the collapse of AIG. They had contracts that PROMISED them this payment if they stayed with the company through a certain date. Congress EXPLICITLY allowed just this sort of thing in the bailout legislation.
How would you feel if you were hired and told,”I will pay you X a month but if your manage to sell Y units though Christmas, I’ll pay you an extra Z at the start of the year.” The when the start of the year comes, you get told that they changed their minds about paying Z and you get nothing.
I had a job with Radio Shack and got the shaft this way. I was told if I increase the performance of a store, I would get 10% of the increased profit. The month before inventory, they dropped that clause. I had increased the profits by almost $90,000 by reducing inventory loss(theft). So none of that inventory gain counted! I can tell you first hand that being treated this was does not breed loyal employees.
If we are going to be mad about anything, it should be the BILLIONS that AIG has paid out to foreign and local banks. Why do those contracts count for more than the ones to employees? Congess should have just let them fail and bailed out the US victims if needed. It would have been quicker. It would have set the precedent that you screw up, you fail. And it would have been cheaper.
OBQuiet on March 17, 2009 at 7:37 PM
Trying to deflect all the blame onto government only enrages people more. Government and these large corporate entities are so interlocked, they’ve practically merged. This is a symbolic issue that the common man can understand.
The relative amount of money compared to bailouts doesn’t matter. The economy is tattered, in part, due to the corruption and incompetence of these overpaid “experts.” And they think they can party on as if nothing happened.
Nope.
Feedie on March 17, 2009 at 7:39 PM
Quite successful too.
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:39 PM
quite and tell me how were the democrats, precisely, punished?
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 7:41 PM
Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
- Charles Mackay
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Santelli makes too much sense. That must be why his points aren’t getting through :/
I saw a comment at Ace’s blog that claimed AIG insures the pensions of Congress. Is that true? Might offer some explanation for so much money being tossed at them and approving the bonuses that they are now hypocritically railing against.
aikidoka on March 17, 2009 at 7:47 PM
They weren’t and if Republicans can not even put together a simple and obvious strategy of connecting a detonator, letting Obama have it gift wrapped instead, to explosives, they won’t be.
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 7:47 PM
The Democrats need to be punished and it is true that government is the ultimate enabler in this case. I do believe ultimately that what goes around comes around, and that day is coming for Congress. But there is such a disconnect between these elites and the people, that I believe it is crazy for these executives to do what they’re doing.
An earlier HA post showed one of those executives wearing a Che shirt at a party. A small symbolic issue, yes, but showing how ignorant and delusional our brightest idiot savants can be.
Feedie on March 17, 2009 at 7:53 PM
I love him.
Mercy4Me on March 17, 2009 at 7:56 PM
This bailout bs is a diversion. Nothing more and it is working.
ORconservative on March 17, 2009 at 7:56 PM
“Sen. Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), tagged by Republican aides for sponsoring an amendment to the stimulus bill that allowed the bonuses, shifted the blame to the Treasury Department and “the bill conferees,” saying he had no idea that the AIG bonuses were coming.”
In other news, OJ Simpson continues his search for the real killer.
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 8:09 PM
AMEN!
desertdweller on March 17, 2009 at 8:23 PM
Hey, remember the first Paulson proposal that read like a ramson note.
It was.
Remember when w spewed wall street got drunk.
They did.
getalife on March 17, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Tim is getting the money back by taking it out of their operating budget.
getalife on March 17, 2009 at 8:47 PM
did SanFran Nan and friends pass the bailouts?
They did….
Did Ogabe vote for it?
He did….
sven10077 on March 17, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Amen and spread the word!
MsDollie on March 17, 2009 at 8:53 PM
OBQuiet on March 17, 2009 at 7:37 PM
You are close to correct as several folks at Michelle’s pointed out, these were retention bonuses written into their contracts to be paid if they stayed till a certain date. The government can’t do anything about a contractual obligation and this is all just smoke and mirrors to distract the public from all the other shenanigans going on.
The payouts to foreign and domestic banks are also part of AIG contractual obligations as an insurance backer of bank assets.
I am not saying some folks at AIG shouldn’t be looked into for mismanagement but that them fulfilling what they were contactually obligated to do should be reason for outrage or even scorn.
goat on March 17, 2009 at 8:54 PM
should Not be reason for outrage or scorn
goat on March 17, 2009 at 8:55 PM
Rush dispelled that on todays show.
MsDollie on March 17, 2009 at 8:56 PM
I think the “bonuses”, or legally binding corporate entitlements, are beyond ludricous. Some of the people at AIG are simply without morals or ethics. But I agree with Santelli on the matter of perspective and I agree with Malkin on the death of fiscal conservatism as we know it.
This is all just madness at this point. Nothing makes any sense any more.
tartan on March 17, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Is it hard for anyone else to imagine that the economy could be worse, the stock market lower, if McCain had suspended his campaign to stand with conservatives and deny the bailout bills and instead name the names, Goerlic, Raines, Johnson, Frank , Dodd, Rangel, Obama, two Clintoons, Carter.
Imagine that AIG was allowed to go into banckruptcy and renegotiate contracts, wages, bonuses etc.?
How about the auto dealers, file banckruptcy and renegotiate the $70+ per hour union contracts and supplier purshases to lower the price of an auto?
But big Democrat constituencies were bailed out with our money because there were not enough consevative Republicans with the balls they were born with to fight, fight, fight!
Democrats and RINO’s beware when the American public wakes up, well the tea parties could turn into pitch forks and torches and Al Queada could tell you what the rath of Americans done dirty feels like.
dhunter on March 17, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Yes, and that is our systemic problem. Ethics and morals are tossed out in favor of legalism. That fact is most obvious with the criminal justice system. Yet, the point about contracts is a very good point. What the Dems are doing is wrong, but Republicans like Bush and McCain are just as much to blame. We are flirting with anarchy.
A good discussion about this is going on at a science site, and in the comments:
My earlier point was that it would’ve been wiser had AIG and its executives voluntarily ditched the bonuses. Unfortunately, they think they’re above everything, and aren’t affected by complex systems with social feedbacks.
Feedie on March 17, 2009 at 9:34 PM
A.I.G: All Recipients
MB4 on March 17, 2009 at 9:45 PM
Thanks MB4,
now I know why McCain suspended his campaign to kick conservatives and American taxpayers in the balls instead of name names and fight, fight, fight!
dhunter on March 17, 2009 at 10:00 PM
AIG can sure pick ‘em. All the brightest bulbs are at the top of the pack.
I’m convinced 100-watt incandescents were banned out of jealousy and fear.
Feedie on March 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM
Not all those labeled as ‘liberal’ are military-averse.
sethstorm on March 17, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Just be sure that you’re willing to go against a military that has a certain loyalty to the Commander in Chief.
sethstorm on March 17, 2009 at 10:17 PM
In National Socialism, the Fascist government aligns itself with the large corporations, while killing the middles class and small businesses, which process we see now going on.
Dhuka on March 17, 2009 at 10:18 PM
Tim,as you so lovingly call him, is having a hard time doing anything. Getting it out of their operating budget is the same as saying he’s getting it out of our pockets. Who do you think funds their operating budget now?
genso on March 17, 2009 at 10:25 PM
goat said
True. Well maybe they can but they shouldn’t. At least not selectively.
My point was that complaining about AIG fulfilling one contract for $150M but not others for $100B is hypocritical. And that they could have avoided BOTH by letting a bankruptcy court do its job. Congress could have used the funds saved to help the victims of that failure if they had to do something.
OBQuiet on March 17, 2009 at 10:29 PM
This Chris Dodd thing needs a separate thread immediately. I heard Hannity on the radio about this and discussing it with Dick Morris.
Mr_Magoo on March 17, 2009 at 10:33 PM
Sounds too honest and sensible. And where would they get their payoff money from?
genso on March 17, 2009 at 10:34 PM
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