The problem with BO now is reality. Now he actually has to do something besides write books about himself. This has been the most feckless and incompetent start of any administration, R or D, in my lifetime (I’m 50).

I hope America has the collective wisdom to stop looking to a corrupt and incompetent government for the answer. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for ought to me that we reject government as the answer. Four years in the doldrums awaits.

Welcome back Carter!

I think there are more, on each side, like each of you than some would like us to think. We’re not that polarized, I suspect.

My proof can only be anecdotal, but I am suprised at the great divide between the internet community. Whereas, in the outside world these differences don’t seem to matter as much.

I wary of Obama’s performance so far, but I’m doing a wait a see approach before I make my final decision. I need a little bit more information to make an honest conclusion.

I will say his transition has been a disaster.

Magnus on March 14, 2009 at 3:16 PM

A fair analysis and understandable position. Please do feel free to chime in on the discussions here.

And now that I threw the thread off course I’ll put it back on topic.

I wary of Obama’s performance so far, but I’m doing a wait a see approach before I make my final decision. I need a little bit more information to make an honest conclusion.

I will say his transition has been a disaster.

“Black americans have suffered value and social deterioration that include a lack of generational wealth, educational value, and destruction of family resulting from past policies and institutions where the purpose was to prevent these systems from thriving in their community inorder to create a sub-class of people that did not interfere with the ruling class. And it will take generations for the majority of that to weed its way out.”

Conservatives would point out that while injustices most definitely did take place and that there is no excuse for those injustices, that much of the destruction of the black family took place due to the welfare reforms of Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society programs which encouraged the breakup of family groupings and that the Democratic party did do it partly to create a sub-class dependent upon the dole. As a conservative, I would point you to Jack Kemp’s Enterprise Zones as efforts to attempt to encourage minority small businesses. Further, Johnson’s Great Society programs not only affected black families adversely, but poor white families as well.

Or I can say something like this without someone feeling like I’m attacking them, “Reagan and Reaganomics did absolutely nothing for blacks. The unemployment rate skyrocketed, the poverty rate trippled and the War on Drugs and racial disparities in the judicial system ravaged the black male population.”

What I would ask you to do here is to remember when the War on Drugs started–again with the Johnson Administration. The unemployment rate for blacks–especially black males was already very high by the time Reagan took office, so can blame really be laid at his feet here? Also, don’t forget efforts such as Kemp’s Enterprise Zones and other small business loans to encourage minority businesses. As for the increased poverty rate–again, I would encourage you to check the graphs as I think you’ll find that much of it takes place during and immediately after Johnson’s Great Society programs.

At a risk saying this here, I felt there I could openly admit without attack that my father and his wife are muslim, and he is an Imam and that while not muslim myself, I’ve been to mosque and around people belonging to the NOI (Nation of Islam) and traditional Muslims and have not seen nor heard any of the radicalism that’s been attributed to all Muslims and Islam in general. I own a Koran, a gift from my father, and I am open to reading it without feeling like my own Christianity is compromised or I’m committing a sin against American, or that I’m not patriotic. Nothing in there can compete with the gift of Christ’s sacrifice.

I’m not going to attack you for saying that and reading the Koran isn’t a sin against Christ nor does it make you unAmerican. Again, just as elsewhere, you’ll find all types of people here–remember, we’re humans. :)

Mainly it was Palin’s “Real America” comment. It drove home for me that I am not included in her and conservatives view of what it is to be American and a patriot. I’m from the South Bronx and before that live in Brooklyn.

This is where her inexperience on the national stage came in. It was an inartful comment, pure and simple, I’ll concede that. A more seasoned politician wouldn’t have used quite those words. Again, she’s got four years to expand her repertoire and her world view.

Besides that I don’t have any sort of admiration or enthusiasm for guns and hunting so a woman being able to field dressing a moose means absolutely nothing to me.

In some ways, I wonder if we’re becoming two separate cultures that are becoming increasingly irreconcilable–but then, I read posts from those like you which gives me hope that maybe we’re not so irreconcilable after all. I grew up with firearms–how to handle them–how to be safe around them. I also grew up hunting and fishing. Nowadays, my hunting is with a camera, but I still like to target shoot and I do possess weapons to defend myself and my family. Thankfully, I’ve never had to exercise that option and I pray I never do, but I am thankful to the Founding Fathers for insisting on the 2nd Amendment stating that I have the right to do so.

I applaud her keeping the baby, however I the reaction from the Right was a bit hypocritical in that I rarely see any support or reverence for poor/urban teenagers or women that get pregnant and have children out of wedlock and make a choice to keep them. I felt if her parents weren’t who they were and had the resources they did, she’d be another teen mother, probably using social services, with a baby’s daddy, the type Conservatives deride so much.

Perhaps you’re not looking in the right places? We don’t deride single mothers, Magnus. As Rush said, and he’s right, conservatives love people. You’d be surprised at how many churches there are that offer outreach, pre-natal, and daycare services for single mothers–all done without insulting or demeaning the mother or trying to force their religious beliefs on her–although spiritual counseling is available should she wish it. There are also many other conservative groups that offer counseling for single mothers and expectant single mothers to help them explore options such as adoption and to provide instruction and help in infant and child care should the mother and/or father and/or their respective families choose to keep the child.

Take the time to get to know some conservatives Magnus. We come in all stripes, all colors, both genders and even different sexual orientations. Yes, we do approach conservatism from different angles and perspectives–it’s that whole rational individual thing I mentioned earlier. For instance, I’m more in the classical liberal tradition of the Founding Fathers and Adam Smith while others here put more emphasis on social conservatism while others are more libertarian in outlook and there are a host of other viewpoints. No one’s going to try to convert you here…we’re not a religion. :) Yeah, sometimes we might get a little curmudgeonly, but honestly, we don’t bite. Well…I take that back…we do bite the occasional troll–but you’re not one of those. Stick around and get to know us a bit more, you’ll see that we’re a pretty diverse lot.

Frankly I’ve found the same on both sides. People willing to discuss honestly, people willing to discuss but resort to belittling and personal attacks when the other won’t bow to their point and folks that do nothing but belittle and attack.

But in saying that at the I feel more comfortable amongst the left side such as HuffingtonPost I am able to say something like this without backlash,

“Black americans have suffered value and social deterioration that include a lack of generational wealth, educational value, and destruction of family resulting from past policies and institutions where the purpose was to prevent these systems from thriving in their community inorder to create a sub-class of people that did not interfere with the ruling class. And it will take generations for the majority of that to weed its way out.”

Or I can say something like this without someone feeling like I’m attacking them, “Reagan and Reaganomics did absolutely nothing for blacks. The unemployment rate skyrocketed, the poverty rate trippled and the War on Drugs and racial disparities in the judicial system ravaged the black male population.”

This is my reality. This is my shade of gray when people make comments like black people are lazy, all on welfare doing a “thug thizzle” , stop whining, get over it, my Irish Ancestors ran out of potatoes, they aren’t complaining”, and so on. Because I know its not that simple and will never be and deep down I get offended because I’m living and have lived what they haven’t.

At a risk saying this here, I felt there I could openly admit without attack that my father and his wife are muslim, and he is an Imam and that while not muslim myself, I’ve been to mosque and around people belonging to the NOI (Nation of Islam) and traditional Muslims and have not seen nor heard any of the radicalism that’s been attributed to all Muslims and Islam in general. I own a Koran, a gift from my father, and I am open to reading it without feeling like my own Christianity is compromised or I’m committing a sin against American, or that I’m not patriotic. Nothing in there can compete with the gift of Christ’s sacrifice.

The only problem I strongly have with the left and sites such as Huffingtonpost is that there is no room for Christianity or criticism of homosexuality. I personally don’t care if gay people have government unions with all the same benefits. I just want my right to not recognize it as the same institution that God put in place or feel its a good environment for children. I feel like when those issues pop up the true vitriol comes out and the left can attack you like rabid dogs. They also can’t accept that terrorist exist and really want to kill us and they tend to be muslim.

So maybe all the things I said above will color folks opinion of me, but that is my purpose. To find out if my realities and view of life are open, maybe not to acceptance, but understanding in the conservative pool.

Sorry I’m rambling.

Mainly it was Palin’s “Real America” comment. It drove home for me that I am not included in her and conservatives view of what it is to be American and a patriot. I’m from the South Bronx and before that live in Brooklyn. My entire life has been spent in urban ghettos and largely populated cities. Everything is real America for me. South Central, LA – Paulding, Georgia, NYC, the small town vet, and the ghetto welfare queen. Besides that I don’t have any sort of admiration or enthusiasm for guns and hunting so a woman being able to field dressing a moose means absolutely nothing to me.

Maybe not now, but what if circumstances drive you away from cities and into the wilderness? Then what? How are you going to feed yourself? “Come here, little cutie…” ;) Without vitamin supplements, all-vegetarian diets get very tricky out in the wilderness. Perhaps fishing is more your style?

Cities are constructs of civilization, and can vanish (and always have vanished) during periods of history. If some natural or man-made disaster wipes out our cities – or their populations – you and I may be put in a position where we have to obtain our own food and shelter. That’s where field-dressing a moose or a deer applies, even to your own hierarchy of needs (Maybe not! ;). During such periods there’s no obligation to starve to death. Nor is it appropriate to depend exclusively on others, and it’s darn difficult to barter for enough food to live on.

Not saying you’re guilty of ignoring anything – such concerns might not have kept you up at night, maybe they have – but IMHO a lot of us tend to bristle at Palin’s masterful displays of physical and mental survival skills because they remind us (consciously or otherwise) of just how little we measure up in comparison, as well as how fragile our toehold is on what I’ll call “easy living”.

Not suggesting that life’s “easy” in the urban ghetto — it’s a struggle there too — but even that construct is an artifice or byproduct of a series of deliberate decisions by humans about where to concentrate their collective wealth & resources. (Plumbing? Electricity? Food stamps?) Urban ghettos don’t occur spontaneously in the wild, whether in Alaska or the sub-Saharan savanna. There, it’s us humans pitted against the elements and other animal species first, and then against each other second. (Sorry for the sloppy writing – is this making any sense? I haven’t exactly thought this out but I hope it’s still possible to see what I’m getting at.)

I was also extremely turned off by the way Bristol Palin (besides her being attacked by the left), was celebrate by the Right. I applaud her keeping the baby, however I the reaction from the Right was a bit hypocritical in that I rarely see any support or reverence for poor/urban teenagers or women that get pregnant and have children out of wedlock and make a choice to keep them. I felt if her parents weren’t who they were and had the resources they did, she’d be another teen mother, probably using social services, with a baby’s daddy, the type Conservatives deride so much.

Magnus on March 14, 2009 at 1:20 PM

You know as well as I do that it will always be up to society to tell such people (teen mothers with no means of support) “no”, otherwise they will take advantage of others. What I worry about is our increasing inability to say “no” to those individuals on the socially constructed grounds that it’s racist, sexist, fill-in-the-blank-ist, or just downright mean. Meanwhile, the implicitly violent act of taking money and resources from others – who may need those resources in a crisis of their own, and are now S.O.L. is not even acknowledged, let alone criticized. Just the opposite, in fact: Any criticism or resentment is held in open contempt, and portrayed as a severe character flaw. To me that’s not liberalism; it’s the polar opposite of liberalism.

Y-not: I’m a fence sitter that leans left because I feel more welcomed and my shades of gray thinking more accepted. I find conservatism is black and white and there can be no deviation of thought. I was lurker here for a while and I’m find myself either confused about the conservative message or feel alienated from it even though in theory it seems more aligned to my generally view of life. And being a black american its harder because we tend to gravitate left because the left seems more open to the issues that specifically effect us.
get into some dialogue with conservatives to form an opinion that isn’t based on the media and our weird allegiance to the Democratic Party.

I frequent the Huffingtonpost also.

But thank you for taking the time to answer my questions honestly.

Magnus on March 13, 2009 at 10:03 PM

Hmmm. Interesting — I’ve had exactly the opposite experience from you. I’ve found shades-of-gray thinking, whether from myself or from others, more accepted on so-called conservative websites than on sites like DKos or DU. Actually, a lot of commentary on blog sites like this one comes from those whose basic world view is grounded in liberalism — classical liberalism. The commentary on DKos or DU – but also on HuffPo, sad to say – is of the leftist-fascist variety that brooks no dissent whatsoever. It’s as if the slightest iota of difference is a betrayal of sorts, and puts you in the enemy camp pretty quickly. That difference is manifest, no matter *what* one’s political leanings happen to be.

Have you not noticed the same thing? Since our two experiences are so different, it seems to suggest that the DKos/DU/HuffPo are more erratic than places like HotAir, though I’m not aware of any hard data (sample or otherwise) on the subject.

Matt Helm on March 13, 2009 at 11:18 PM

Everything he just said, Magnus.

Dow up 10% this week.

Thank you President Obama for keeping your mouth shut on the economy this week — that actually seems to have helped.

getalife on March 13, 2009 at 3:05 PM

Mainly it was Palin’s “Real America” comment. It drove home for me that I am not included in her and conservatives view of what it is to be American and a patriot. I’m from the South Bronx and before that live in Brooklyn. My entire life has been spent in urban ghettos and largely populated cities. Everything is real America for me. South Central, LA – Paulding, Georgia, NYC, the small town vet, and the ghetto welfare queen. Besides that I don’t have any sort of admiration or enthusiasm for guns and hunting so a woman being able to field dressing a moose means absolutely nothing to me.

I was also extremely turned off by the way Bristol Palin (besides her being attacked by the left), was celebrate by the Right. I applaud her keeping the baby, however I the reaction from the Right was a bit hypocritical in that I rarely see any support or reverence for poor/urban teenagers or women that get pregnant and have children out of wedlock and make a choice to keep them. I felt if her parents weren’t who they were and had the resources they did, she’d be another teen mother, probably using social services, with a baby’s daddy, the type Conservatives deride so much.

I’d find it hard for a person to enter a higher science or biological field without some sort of higher education. I mean I could say all I want that I would like to be a Molecular biologist but if I didn’t have any type of focused and extensive training in it I doubt I’d make it far. I would be hard pressed for my mother to have someone treating her breast cancer if they just went to the library to and read books or looked on the internet.

Quite correct. Fields such as molecular biology, medicine, etc. do require extensive training. Again, we conservatives don’t object to higher education–far from it. As I pointed out above, many of us, myself included, have enjoyed higher education and have post-graduate degrees. What we object to is the poor quality of education now which includes, as you pointed out, the failure to properly teach critical thinking–and yes, that is partly the fault of parents preoccupied with things other than their children, but also it is a failure of the school system. A proper liberal arts education encourages critical thinking and analysis.

Therein lies my confusion. I don’t see how many people could be in the fields they are in without some form of higher education. Maybe Women’s studies and philosphy are throw aways, but the sciences, specifically medical sciences, some social sciences, some political and social science arenas I don’t understand how many of those fields would flourish without people that had continued focused education. Universities and Colleges are as ancient as the pyramids so obviously there was a need.

True, but never underestimate the power of the self-educated and self-motivated man or woman. While Thomas Jefferson received an education in law at William and Mary, he taught himself architecture, designing not just Monticello, but also many of the buildings on the University of Virginia campus and learned his farm management techniques all on his own. All the while he invented the swivel chair and other inventions. Amateur astronomers, in many cases armed mostly with self-acquired knowledge carry out valuable observations on variable stars, supernovae, and have contributed to expanding our knowledge of the cosmos. Amateur geologists who have also acquired their knowledge on their own have also made valuable contributions to their field. You, yourself have expanded the depth and breadth of your knowledge through your own endeavors.

Let’s look at Obama. I voted for him and I don’t have buyers remorse just yet. I could have gone either way initially, but I couldn’t connect with Palin(I liked her as a woman)and she had comment and actions that solidified that disconnect for me. And then McCain totally lost me when the financial crisis hit he came off as irrational and erratic.

We understand that–and believe it or not, we don’t hold it against you :). Many of us were angered and irritated by McCain’s poor response to the financial crisis–that probably cost him the election. Your statement regarding your reaction to Palin’s comments and actions I think speaks more of the power of the press to distort as I’m sure that much of your perceptions were colored by what you saw in the media. I would suggest that you take the time to really get to know her record. While you might not agree with her personal positions–and that’s ok–we all have our views, you might find that an unfair and distorted picture has been painted of her. You’ll find that she tends to govern in a very pragmatic and honest manner and that she has done a very effective job in her state, and is popular with both Republicans and Democrats at home. Yes, she probably wasn’t quite ready for “prime time” on the national stage in 2008, but she’s got the makings of being an effective leader.

I didn’t receive a Harvard education, Obama did. I make pretty pictures and can draw circles. However I feel like there are some decisions that need to be made and actions need to be taking that are as obvious as the sun shining. What is he missing.

What is he missing? That’s what we call a red-meat question here. :) In other words, you’ll get plenty of responses to that, and some of them–many of them–will be quite unflattering towards Obama. To me, Obama lacks appreciation for the true values of this country: respect for individual inalienable rights and liberties including private property and the choice to make one’s own decisions as well as the Constitution and values of the Founding Fathers upon which the country was founded; faith–not necessarily in a higher power, but in the wisdom and ability of one’s fellow human being to exercise reason; integrity–his record as a politician is one of corruption and opportunism. Finally, to be brutally honest, to me Obama also lacks the basic competence to be president of this country. He’s not the only incompetent we’ve had occupy the Oval Office, he joins such others as Jimmy Carter, James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce, and Millard Fillmore, but it’s never a good thing for the country.

But it is early and I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt like I occasionally did with Bush. I just assume that they have/had more information about something than I do and are making decisions based on that. I will judge the outcome of those decisions.

There’s an old saying about “assuming”, Magnus. We understand you’re wanting to give Obama the doubt, but please, never assume that those “higher up” are necessarily acting in your best interests regardless of who the “higher ups” are. Always question and always hold their feet to the fire–demand answers. Jefferson, Madison, Adams would tell you the same thing.

But it is early and I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt like I occasionally did with Bush. I just assume that they have/had more information about something than I do and are making decisions based on that. I will judge the outcome of those decisions.

Magnus on March 14, 2009 at 10:28 AM

“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” Ronald Reagan

Keep this quote in mind as you evaluate the actions of the Obama administration.

I appreciate your openmindedness. You seem geniunely interested in thinking for yourself and objectively evaluating opposing points of view. So many times I see liberal pundits dismiss conservative viewpoints as “just talking points” and not making any effort to understand the reasons behind that point of view. There are sound reasons why conservatives hold the point of view they do and it is usually based on evaluation of what historically has or has not worked. I like to say that the difference between conservatives and liberals is the difference between those who learn the lessons of history and those who don’t.

:)

YiZhangZhe –

I’d find it hard for a person to enter a higher science or biological field without some sort of higher education. I mean I could say all I want that I would like to be a Molecular biologist but if I didn’t have any type of focused and extensive training in it I doubt I’d make it far. I would be hard pressed for my mother to have someone treating her breast cancer if they just went to the library to and read books or looked on the internet.

Therein lies my confusion. I don’t see how many people could be in the fields they are in without some form of higher education. Maybe Women’s studies and philosphy are throw aways, but the sciences, specifically medical sciences, some social sciences, some political and social science arenas I don’t understand how many of those fields would flourish without people that had continued focused education. Universities and Colleges are as ancient as the pyramids so obviously there was a need.

Personally I’m a graphic designer and I earned a degree in communication design. Which normally you wouldn’t think involved much. But through higher education and further study I learned about the psychological effects composition and color can have on people. That if you put to colors next to each the brain/eye communication can make them shake or vibrate. I learned way to force people to think a certain way and control behavior, not to mention the technicalities of mechanicals, printing, computers, and various software applications, business practices, etiquette, accounting and legal issues such as copyright law. And then I continued to learn once I got into the real world, but I had a foundation to start with and compete with.

But the one thing that I didn’t learn was how to think for myself. I already had that from my parents. I just gained additional information to add to my mental file cabinet to refer to at a later date. So maybe the real problem is parents are leaving the mental development of their children to daycares, teachers, other kids, and Universities.

Let’s look at Obama. I voted for him and I don’t have buyers remorse just yet. I could have gone either way initially, but I couldn’t connect with Palin(I liked her as a woman)and she had comment and actions that solidified that disconnect for me. And then McCain totally lost me when the financial crisis hit he came off as irrational and erratic.

I didn’t receive a Harvard education, Obama did. I make pretty pictures and can draw circles. However I feel like there are some decisions that need to be made and actions need to be taking that are as obvious as the sun shining. What is he missing.

But it is early and I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt like I occasionally did with Bush. I just assume that they have/had more information about something than I do and are making decisions based on that. I will judge the outcome of those decisions.

NoDonkey on March 13, 2009 at 2:00 PM

I wonder, how do you spell “Trainee” in Russian??

On a more serious note, great discussion thread regarding higher education, conservative postitions from Matt Helm, Y-not and Dr. Zero. Kudos to YiZhangeZhe as well.

IMHO and slightly off topic, the public school system was designed to indoctrinate not to educate (read Horace Mann and Dewey). A true education builds on individual strengths and nurtures the love of learning for life. The school model simply crushes the spirit of children and their natural love of learning and exploration. I homeschool and my goal in teaching my daughter is to teach her to read well, write well and speak well, with these skills she can go anywhere and do anything. I will be teaching her logic so that she can think for herself, and debate so that she can articulate for herself. These skills are more important to me than learning useless facts or being evaluated based on a so called assessment test.

Please explain me the conservative hostility towards higher education/educated or the pursuit of higher education?

Magnus on March 13, 2009 at 6:11 PM

Speaking only for myself, and only from my own experience, of course …

I have coached and assisted a couple of dozen or so people who went on to get BA, BSc, MSc or PhD qualifications (About half of them were MSc or PhD). Even by the time they graduated (with good grades), most of them had no ability to think critically in order to evaluate ideas, and their thought process was largely irrational.

A lot of what they wrote in pursuit of their qualifications was, frankly, waffle that even they didn’t really understand. I particularly remember challenging one woman regarding her anthropology dissertation which was basically nonsense. She showed me one of the books from her prescribed reading list (written by some learned scholar) and, lo, the style therein was the same waffle; many long and impressive words but, on analysis, no actual substance.

Those of my ‘students’ that had the best ability to reason and evaluate had not learned those skills at school or in higher education.

Additionally I have had debated issues with many other graduates who I did not coach or assist. I have found most of them also were unable to reason or evaluate. Incidentally, out of all the graduates that I have debated (whether coached by me or not) those that have been best able to reason and evaluate have been engineers.

So my objection to higher objection is that much of it serves no useful purpose. It keeps people busy in pursuit of qualifications but mostly fails to develop their minds. Worse, those who graduate from that system are then presumed to have some abilities which, in fact, most of them totally do not have, namely the abilities to reason and evaluate.

For the record, most of the people I personally coached were studying some sort of social science (Anthropology, marketing, business) or some sort of biological science (neurology, genetics, medical biotechnology, nursing, …), or engineering. One was studying physics and a couple were studying IT subjects.

There are, I presume, many good courses, institutions and teachers but, in my experience, much of higher education is basically a fraud.