California to abolish marriage?

posted at 12:16 pm on March 12, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

The back-and-forth over Proposition 8, which amended California’s constitution to define marriage as between one man and one woman, has generated plenty of debate, heat, and threats — and now a new initiative to change public policy on marriage altogether.  Attorney General Jerry Brown has submitted a referendum that would make California the first state in the nation to get entirely out of the marriage business [see update below].  If backers get enough signatures, any new marriages in the state would only get recognized as domestic-partnership contracts:

California same-sex “marriage” supporters are collecting signatures to support a ballot initiative that would remove civil marriage from California law entirely, as well as the provision codifying marriage as between a man and a woman.

The “Domestic Partnership Initiative” proposes to categorize all unions simply as “domestic partnerships,” while retaining all the rights of marriage for heterosexual couples, and extending them to homosexual couples.  According to the initiative’s summary, “Legally speaking, ‘Marriage’ itself would become a social ceremony, recognized by only non-governmental institutions.”

State Attorney General Jerry Brown submitted the official title and summary for the measure on Monday, about one week after opening arguments in lawsuits challenging Proposition 8, California’s true marriage amendment.

Brown realized after the state Supreme Court arguments over his challenge to Prop 8 that he had little chance of reversing it.  The justices seemed skeptical of Brown’s assertion that the citizens of the state could not amend the constitution through the referendum process without prior legislative approval, probably because the state has never challenged that right after previous successful initiatives.  That means that the only real suspense in the upcoming decision will be whether the state should recognize the 18,000 same-sex marriages certified by the state before Prop 8 passed.

The DPI is an interesting and provocative referendum that will force people to consider the role of government in social constructs and religious practices.  Those who argue that government has a duty to protect the sanctity of marriage will undoubtedly object, but that argument died on a pragmatic basis with no-fault divorce.  Though not all states have it, most do, and it demoted the marriage contract to the lowest rung in legal commitments by allowing one partner to break it at will with no consequences whatsoever.  On a philosophical basis, libertarians and some small-government conservatives would argue that “sanctity” is a religious/philosophical construct and not something for governments to enforce, anyway.

As a practical matter, eliminating marriage as a government sanction and forcing couples into partnership contracts would eliminate barriers to adoption and benefits for gay couples, at least in California.  It would also avoid the state-recognition issue that the Massachusetts Supreme Court created and which the Defense of Marriage Act attempted to pre-empt.  Since the couples would not have government-sanctioned “marriages”, other states would not have to recognize them as such, but the contracts would be enforceable anywhere in the US — probably a lot more enforceable than marriages are today.  Those who want to claim “marriage” could have that sanctioned by their religious organizations instead of relying on the state.

Most opposition to this will rest on adoption and the profound nature of changing the way society treats its foundational building block, the family.  In practice, DPI might not really change much anyway, since I believe California allows for private adoptions by singles and gay couples, and people are free to arrange their families in such manner anyway without government approval as “marriage” now.  However much the libertarian argument appeals to me — and it does — I have to wonder whether we gain much in taking such a step, and what we lose in comparison.

Update: An e-mailer reminds me of what I should have remembered in the first place:

Jerry Brown did not “submit” the initiative. He submitted the official title and summary of the measure. In California, citizen backed initiatives are first submitted to the Attorney General, who then is required by law to prepare an official title and summary of the measure which is to be used on the forms for petition gathering and also appears in the ballot pamphlet. There is an official time period in which the Attorney General has to generate the title and summary. So, the fact that the “title and summary” for this measure came out shortly after court arguments on Prop 8 is due to when the measure’s proponents filed the initiative and not to a scheme by Brown. Brown also “controversially” wrote the title and summary to Prop 8.

So it’s unfair to hang this on Brown, who is fulfilling his duties as AG.  My apologies to Mr. Brown.

Blowback

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“They don’t want civil rights, they want civil acceptance.”

EXACTLY!

And the dunb shits have yet to figure out that YOU CAN’T LEGISLATE OR MANDATE ACCEPTANCE!

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Exactly, by returning marriage to the church, it would be forever off-limits to gays…

BohicaTwentyTwo on March 12, 2009 at 1:00 PM

Bull. Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Oh, brother! Just leave it alone. As one gets older and wiser you begin to see that there are reasons why somethings are the way they are, i.e., marriage is between a man and a woman.

Frankly, I am always repulsed by the British habit of referring to the person they are shacked up with as their “partner”. Do what you want but if you have kids you should marry and the person is your husband or wife.

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

“Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.”

Define “lots”.

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

As a practical matter, eliminating marriage as a government sanction and forcing couples into partnership contracts would eliminate barriers to adoption and benefits for gay couples, at least in California.

Divorce lawyers will have a conniption fit about this, unless a “domestic partnership” has the same legal effect as a marriage for purposes of property ownership, inheritance, alimony, and so forth.

This society is dying. Our moral fabric is being torn asunder. The destruction of the nuclear family in poorer communities by liberal policies has ruined the poor over the past 40 years. Now, we eliminate marriage altogether, and we have gay adoptions and gay pregnancies and so forth. Keeping in mind that people respond to incentives, all this perversion will simply destroy ALL American families and lead to our doom.

A pity this country does not have more courage or wisdom to stand up to this.

Outlander on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

But the larger portion of the gay marriage contingent really does want acceptance and will not be content until their marriage is considered the exact same as a heterosexual marriage. They will keep fighting even if the state gives in enough to cover the benefits of marriage without calling it marriage.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM

It goes further than just marriage. There are recent cases where a photographer was sued because he wouldn’t accept a gay client for their wedding. Also, a therapist was sued by a lesbian ‘client’ because the therapist refused to treat her (even though the therapist provided an excellent reference to a therapist who would). A certain portion of the gay community are using the law as a cudgel to gain acceptance and shape society and culture. It’s only right and fitting that this kind of tyranny be slapped down (a perfect example of why the libertarian perspective is flawed).

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Agreed. Supporters of “traditional marriage” should be reminded that for as long as the concept of marriage has existed, it’s typically been an arrangement between private parties and religious institutions. I’m not convinced that the government has any role in defining this relationship. The only place the government should have in marriage is its role in mediating contract disputes.

Enrique on March 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Disagree entirely.

Libertarians wrong as usual.

Society has a HUGE STAKE in protecting the traditional family and traditional family.

Traditional family raises most healthy citizens. Thus, government has a huge stake in supporting the organization, the traditional family, that raises good citizens to continue society.

Coulter’s latest book is all you need to know about single motherhood and the effects of raising children outside of the safety of the traditional family.

The Wall on March 12, 2009 at 1:06 PM

I’ll just add “idiots” to “fruits and nuts”.

kirkill on March 12, 2009 at 1:07 PM

“Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.”

Define “lots”.

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Define “churches”.

The Wall on March 12, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Good grief! Let’s just surrender to the gays! Anything they want is ok by us! Can’t preach against homosexuality in church. Ok! We won’t! No more marriage anywhere in the country. Ok…we certainly don’t want to offend the gays! No more “gender discrimination” anywhere for any reason! Ok! Boys shall be brought up as boys and girls! Girls shall be raised as girls and boys and they can “choose their sex”? Ok…we don’t want to offend the gays!

I personally will never surrender to this perverted lifestyle or what they offer to the nation! EVER!

sabbott on March 12, 2009 at 1:07 PM

This is becoming the New Dark Ages. Remember how we got out of the Dark Ages? A good ol’ Crusade.

kirkill on March 12, 2009 at 1:08 PM

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Exactly.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM

So, how does this work now? How would a guy like Allahpundit get married, being an atheist and all, if there is no civil marriage? Does he just sign some domestic partnership forms and file them with the state? Does he have to pretend to be gay?

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM

Libertarians as a whole need to get over it and accept that social conservatives are neccesary. Their ideal of a socially liberal fiscal conservative does not exist. Collins, Snowe, Specter, Schwarzenegger those are their models and look what they have given to government in the way of fiscal conservatism. (Not to lay everything at Libertarians feet, the social conservatives need to lay off the farm pork, but that is for another thread.)

Theworldisnotenough on March 12, 2009 at 12:44 PM

Beautiful!

Sometimes I think the Libertarians are as delusional as the Communists, in that each group thinks that their fundamental ideas remain solid despite all the practical evidence to the contrary. If only it were given one more chance, presumably with the right people at the helm with the purest of intentions, we’d have Utopia rather than streets awash in red, whether ink or blood.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

What’s wrong with getting Government out of the “marriage” business? I thought conservatives were about minimizing Government interferece in peoples lives.

So what if a “marriage license ” is called a “domestic contract” or whatever? The State still collects the fee and counts the heads. Seems like no harm/no foul to me.

And if a church or any other religious institution wants to or doesn’t want to perform “marriages” for their congregants (be they Joe/Jane, Joe/Joe or Jane/Jane) why should the Government be involved in either coercing it or forbidding it? Ain’t that what separation of Church & State is about?

Bruno Strozek on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

“Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.”

Define “lots”.

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Mainly the Church of Liberalism

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM

The govt has really always been in the marriage business.
Settlers on the VA frontier in the 1700s had problems finding people to marry them legally & bcs it was hard to do so, there were many ‘illegal’ marriages.
Legal marriages prevent polygamy, child brides/grooms, etc.
There is a good reason for govt to have at least a modicum of interest in it.
They need to go back to some basics in that regard.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

For a start, the Presbyterian church has determined that denominational law is not violated when their ministers oversee gay marriages. The United Church of Christ was the first church to announce their willingness to perform them. The Lutherans are also on the verge of approving gay marriage, as their recent votes on the matter were split 50-50.

To say that leaving it up to the churches will “lock out gay marriage” is ridiculous. There are also plenty of non-denominational churches out there in favor of them.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

Tragic how our highly developed western society is being ground down between the twin secular liberal millstones of moral equivalence on one hand, which detests heritage and tradition, and the 7th century muslim presence on the other which hates not only our heritage and tradition but also the very secular liberalism that empowers it. We know one thing: The trajectories of those two anti-western social-political movements are converging on the middle in a grand pincer movement, but only one can triumph.

keep the change on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

Yes, because one “right” for which many of them (the gays) are fighting for is a marriage that must be recognized by the churches… Because a church not recognizing gay marriage = HATE CRIME!

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM

The First Amendment would prevent that.

What CA is proposing is about where things will move to. One strong argument against gay marriage is that gays are trying to redefine something that churches hold sacred. The problem with this is that state restrictions can’t be defined by church restrictions.

If marriage is a right with state benefits, ultimately the attempt to constrain that right according to religious principles will be stopped by some part of the political process.

By separating the state definition from the religious definition, and moving the word marriage into the private and religious realm, CA may be approaching workable compromise.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM

In the early 90s it was very popular for gays to enter into these contracts. When all hell broke lose, they then tried to get the criminal courts to enforce the terms of these contracts. It was a real pain in the butt.

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Sometimes I think the Libertarians are as delusional as the Communists…

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Wow. Just wow.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM

As long as the state has a role in defining what is and is not a family, the traditional conception of the family will always be at risk. To give the government the power of definition is to give it absolute power – which, as we know, can do great good and great evil. Removing the marriage language from the legal codes is a brilliant pivot for conservatives and libertarians alike, allowing us to extend an olive branch to the homosexual community while simultaneously upholding traditional conceptions of marriage and family. Bravo.

LockeFox on March 12, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Does he just sign some domestic partnership forms and file them with the state? Does he have to pretend to be gay?

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM

For teh thread win!

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Coulter’s latest book is all you need to know about single motherhood and the effects of raising children outside of the safety of the traditional family.

The Wall on March 12, 2009 at 1:06 PM

I thought that one of her arguments was that the government shouldn’t be encouraging single motherhood. If the government did not meddle in social engineering, single motherhood would find it hard to survive as a social norm.

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

So, how does this work now? How would a guy like Allahpundit get married, being an atheist and all, if there is no civil marriage? Does he just sign some domestic partnership forms and file them with the state? Does he have to pretend to be gay?

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM

That’s how two friends of mine got married a couple of years ago. They had a non-denominational “minister” perform a non-religious ceremony and they signed some state documents in front of everyone. The whole thing had a tongue-in-cheek tone that was somewhat less than inspiring.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Bruno Strozek on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

Great idea unless you are ‘married’ with kids to someone who breaks the deal & takes you for everything, along with the mistress & leaves you to raise the kids with no consequences.
So I guess if the govt has to be involved in marriage at all, the contract is what’s important, here, to recognize.
As far as ‘marriage’ between men & women, kids are better off in a two-parent home. And the govt should be concerned with the morality of its citizens to some degree bcs depravity breeds criminality.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

By separating the state definition from the religious definition, and moving the word marriage into the private and religious realm, CA may be approaching workable compromise.

No, it’s not a workable compromise. The state has an interest in promoting marriage between a man and a woman because it is the best way to raise healthy and happy children.

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Gains – Noise level goes way down

Losses – If you cannot procreate, then how do you survive?

Kini on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Wow. Just wow.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Yeah, it’s not like I explained myself or anything…

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

If the government did not meddle in social engineering, single motherhood would find it hard to survive as a social norm.

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

BINGO!
By supporting healthy familial values, the govt is in turn rewarded with more responsible citizens & taxpayers!

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:15 PM

The First Amendment would prevent that.

What CA is proposing is about where things will move to. One strong argument against gay marriage is that gays are trying to redefine something that churches hold sacred. The problem with this is that state restrictions can’t be defined by church restrictions.

If marriage is a right with state benefits, ultimately the attempt to constrain that right according to religious principles will be stopped by some part of the political process.

By separating the state definition from the religious definition, and moving the word marriage into the private and religious realm, CA may be approaching workable compromise.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:12 PM

This is assuming that the 1st amendment is adhered by CA… Also, notice I never disagreed with your position… I was merely pointing out why this in fact might be a good idea.

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM

What’s wrong with getting Government out of the “marriage” business? I thought conservatives were about minimizing Government interferece in peoples lives.

So what if a “marriage license ” is called a “domestic contract” or whatever? The State still collects the fee and counts the heads. Seems like no harm/no foul to me.

And if a church or any other religious institution wants to or doesn’t want to perform “marriages” for their congregants (be they Joe/Jane, Joe/Joe or Jane/Jane) why should the Government be involved in either coercing it or forbidding it? Ain’t that what separation of Church & State is about?

Bruno Strozek on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

For starters this proposal really doesn’t get the state out of the ‘marriage’ business – it just says the marriage business is now called the ‘domestic partnership’ business.

Churches can already marry people without the individuals involved getting a marriage license. The state is still defining and enforcing contracts that for all intents and purposes are a ‘marriage’.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM

Homosexual marriage was a plan to destroy the union of marriage all along and homosexuals are perfect pawns.

Traditional families and the innate love of their offspring get in the way of Communism.

Our President is a great admirer of the philosophy of the Marxist Saul Alinskey, and of course Hillary Clinton dedicated her Wellesley thesis, to Marxist Saul Alinsky, a man who she greatly admired.

The following is from -MIA: Marxists: Marx & Engels: Library: 1848: Manifesto of the Communist Party: Chapter 2:
…Abolition [Aufhebung] of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.

But, you say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social…

Google: Communist Manifesto (Chapter 2)

For Hillary Clinton’s thesis:

Google: Hillary Rodham Clinton’s Wellesley College Senior Thesis (1969) scrib

sinsing on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Watch out
You might get what youre after
Cool babies
Strange but not a stranger
Im an ordinary guy
Burning down the house

Hold tight wait till the partys over
Hold tight were in for nasty weather
There has got to be a way
Burning down the house

Heres your ticket pack your bag: time for jumpin overboard
The transportation is here
Close enough but not too far, maybe you know where you are
Fightin fire with fire

All wet
Hey you might need a raincoat
Shakedown
Dreams walking in broad daylight
Three hun-dred six-ty five de-grees
Burning down the house

It was once upon a place sometimes I listen to myself
Gonna come in first place
People on their way to work baby what did you except
Gonna burst into flame

My house
Sout of the ordinary
Thats right
Dont want to hurt nobody
Some things sure can sweep me off my feet
Burning down the house

No visible means of support and you have not seen nuthin yet
Everythings stuck together
I dont know what you expect starring into the tv set
Fighting fire with fire
- Talking Heads

MB4 on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

So… If they get rid of “marriage” for “partnership contracts,” does that mean that deviant marriage behavior– such as polygamy–will then be, basically, legal?

Since ‘polygamy’ is defined as having more than one spouse (typically wives), and since California–assuming this passes–will no longer recognize marriage contracts by making marriage strictly a religious thing, then by all accounts, ‘polygamy’ as a crime will effectively become unenforceable.

Ordinarily the state in which the polygamous marriage occurred has jurisdiction over prosecution of the crime. Some statutes, however, provide that the accused may be convicted in the state where the polygamous cohabitation takes place, even though the marriage occurred elsewhere. For example, California law provides that “when the second marriage took place out of this state, proof of that fact, accompanied with proof of cohabitation thereafter in this state, is sufficient to sustain the charge.” Cal. Pen. Code § 281.

There is a small work-around for them, though. California exempts from its law “any person by reason of any former marriage whose husband or wife by such marriage has been absent for five successive years without being known to such person within that time to be living.” Cal. Pen. Code § 282.

But I don’t think that this applies here. I just threw that in there for good measure. :)

But my point is that, if California goes through with this idiotic scheme to “ban marriage,” then this could, conceivably, open the floodgates to all kinds of deviant “marriage” behaviors.

Talk about foolishly rushing in where angels fear to tread…

jedijson on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

By supporting healthy familial values, the govt is in turn rewarded with more responsible citizens & taxpayers!

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:15 PM

But as long as the government rewards healthy familial values, there is always a definition (the definition of what is healthy familial values) for progressives to change…

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:19 PM

Bull. Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Oh hey look, the biggest intellectual coward on Hot Air is back at it again. Sticking his head in the sand only to raise it to screech some nonsense and shove it back into the sand before anyone says anything that might actually challenge his worldview.

Tacitus_SGL on March 12, 2009 at 1:21 PM

Let’s take a step back. When it comes to governance, is there anything in California that one could look to as a good, successful model for other states to follow? California is in disarray and on the verge of bankruptcy. Just based on the governing record of their own officials, why would Former Governor Moonbeam’s be considered a good idea?

Until they improve their record with running their state, any “innovative” social engineering ideas should not be taken seriously.

Mallard T. Drake on March 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM

Yeah, it’s not like I explained myself or anything…

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

No no, I understand completely. Just like when DL Hughley made his comparison regarding Republicans. Just takes context, right?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM

And the dunb shits have yet to figure out that YOU CAN’T LEGISLATE OR MANDATE ACCEPTANCE!

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM

heh. This reminds me of a convo I had with a lib somewhere on another site. She said “Come on, don’t we all really just want the same thing in the end, it’s just that we believe in going about it in different ways?”
I said …”explain”
She said ” well, you want everybody to be happy, right? I mean we all want that?”
Umm. No. I don’t want everyone to be happy. Not b/c I want to be the ‘happiness police’, but b/c some people just aren’t happy unless they’re harming others.
Or….are constantly feeling unnaccepted and so in turn want to sue everyone who makes them feel that way.
It is not constructive.

yellow_railroad on March 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM

Oh hey look, the biggest intellectual coward on Hot Air is back at it again. Sticking his head in the sand only to raise it to screech some nonsense and shove it back into the sand before anyone says anything that might actually challenge his worldview.

Tacitus_SGL on March 12, 2009 at 1:21 PM

Who the hell are you and what the hell are you talking about? Do you actually have an argument or point?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM

The trajectories of those two anti-western social-political movements are converging on the middle in a grand pincer movement, but only one can triumph.

keep the change on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

With heart, faith and steel. In the end there can be only one.
- Ramirez

MB4 on March 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM

^^yikes, I made some spelling errors above. sorry.

yellow_railroad on March 12, 2009 at 1:24 PM

This is assuming that the 1st amendment is adhered by CA… Also, notice I never disagreed with your position… I was merely pointing out why this in fact might be a good idea.

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM

CA is required to adhere to the the First Amendment, since most of the Bill of Rights has been applied to the states by SCOTUS.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:24 PM

California, desperately in need of that “Big One” to drop it into the pacific.

Viper1 on March 12, 2009 at 1:25 PM

jedijson on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Beat me to it. So, if it becomes just another contract, what justification does California have in preventing consenting adults from entering into multiple contracts?

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:25 PM

No no, I understand completely. Just like when DL Hughley made his comparison regarding Republicans. Just takes context, right?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM

You should have stuck with “Wow. Just wow.” The ambiguity might have worked in your favor with some.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:26 PM

^^yikes, I made some spelling errors above. sorry.

yellow_railroad on March 12, 2009 at 1:24 PM

Never had much use for a man who could only spell words one way. Shows lack of creativity!
- Mark Twain

MB4 on March 12, 2009 at 1:26 PM

This is why we must think local instead of getting all up in arms on who will win the republican primaries. Fact is, if the conservatives took out Governor Moonbeam when he ran for attorney general, this wouldn’t be an issue.

You give the gays civil unions, and they want to take out marriage? You have to ask yourself why? And then fight them every step of the way, because they are doing it out of revenge versus doing it as a righteous argument.

Conservative Voice on March 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM

I agree that society has a stake in protecting the sanctity of marriage, but it seems to me — as a libertarian — that this protection is better provided by private citizens and institutions than it is by the government which IMO should not be in the business of social engineering regardless of which side of an argument they come down on. I realize that this initiative is just an end run around Prop 8 and is more about gay rights than civil liberty for all, but if the end result is the latter (please don’t stone me!), I’m OK with that. I think marriage SHOULD be a religious and cultural construct, something left to churches to regulate as they see fit, and the government should really have no say in it. I’m opposed to gay marriage because I think legalizing it will one day inevitably run afoul of the Establishment Clause, but maybe by taking marriage out of the public sphere altogether, we might avoid further chipping away of the 1st Amendment. This initiative doesn’t ban marriage; churches will still be free to perform marriage ceremonies as they see fit. Wives can still take their husbands’ last names. I don’t disagree with any of what Ann Coulter reported in her book about single motherhood. But children don’t understand these concepts. All they know is that they feel more secure having one mother and one father living together with them under the same roof in a loving relationship.

NoLeftTurn on March 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM

To say that leaving it up to the churches will “lock out gay marriage” is ridiculous. There are also plenty of non-denominational churches out there in favor of them.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

If a church deciedes on its own to condone gay marriage, that’s fine. Forcing a church to not accept gay marriage is just as bad as forcing a church to accept it.

BohicaTwentyTwo on March 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM

California vision of Marriage:

A Joint Venture between 2 contracting parties. Nothing more.

BobMbx on March 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM

When The Bride of Monster and I were married, there were actually four parties to the contract. Two of them were not yet conceived, much less competent to grant their consent to the arrangement. Someone has to act as their guardian. That is the legal basis for the State regulating the marriage contract. Laws that forbid close relatives to enter into that contract, because their as-yet-unborn children may suffer horrible genetic disease due to the inbreeding, are justly enacted to protect those children’s interest.

“Gay marriage” doesn’t have this problem, because there is no procreative act involved in such a relationship. Therefore there are no additional parties to be spontaneously subjected to the “marriage”.

They are fundamentally different.

The Monster on March 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM

But as long as the government rewards healthy familial values, there is always a definition (the definition of what is healthy familial values) for progressives to change…

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:19 PM

Yeah sure. But that’s always been a fight. And it always will be. It is certainly no reason to just entirely give it up, either.
Progressives are in to redefining anything they can-like what is sex?

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:28 PM

“Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.”

Define “lots”.

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:04 PM

“Too many”

But that’s a problem with those churches, not a gubmint problem. I’ve been beating the “get government out of the marriage recognizing business” drum for four years now; I really didn’t expect it to ever happen, but I’m pleased to see it taking shape. Maybe “marriage” will come to actually refer to a sacred and permanent relationship again, instead of its current farcical secular definition, where one or the other parties often bails at the first sign of trouble or the first wrinkle or grey hair on their spouse.

Well, one can hope….

RegularJoe on March 12, 2009 at 1:29 PM

No no, I understand completely. Just like when DL Hughley made his comparison regarding Republicans. Just takes context, right?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM

I don’t believe Kensington was generally equating communists and libertarians – he was pointing out both of their philosophies only work if you you largely ignore what we know of human behavior and history. He wasn’t saying the philosophies were similar in any other way.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Brenda: I was hoping you could give me some advice.
Connor MacLeod: Are you the kind of woman who takes advice?
Brenda: Sometimes.
Connor MacLeod: Advice about what?
Brenda: What can you tell me about a gay lunatic hacking away with a legal broadsword in California in 2009?
Connor MacLeod: …Not much.

MB4 on March 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM

If a church deciedes on its own to condone gay marriage, that’s fine. Forcing a church to not accept gay marriage is just as bad as forcing a church to accept it.

BohicaTwentyTwo on March 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM

Bingo, and quite frankly, that point never gets brought up. The standard argument is that “The government is going to force churches to marry gays!!!” If that’s what you’re afraid of, let’s eliminate the idea of government dictating the definitions of marriage altogether. We have freedom of religion in this country. Your church should be able to freely choose whether they find same-sex marriage to be within their doctrine, and nobody should be able to tell them they can’t practice that belief.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM

Who the hell are you and what the hell are you talking about? Do you actually have an argument or point?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM

The last time we argued about this exact issue I provided you with substantive rational arguments for opposing same sex marriage, which you chose to ignore entirely in favor of whining about perceived technicalities and wrongs. The instant you found fault with anything I had to say you stopped reading and ironically bleated “strawman” or some such nonsense. You were so desperate to find ways to invalidate any and all of my arguments that you invented some where there were none, because you’re a coward.

I’m not going to bother arguing with you again, because you clearly aren’t interested in debating honestly. You just want to land some punches and run off before anyone has a chance to hit you back.

Tacitus_SGL on March 12, 2009 at 1:31 PM

Yeah sure. But that’s always been a fight. And it always will be. It is certainly no reason to just entirely give it up, either.
Progressives are in to redefining anything they can-like what is sex love?

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Fine, and yes, we will always have to fight, but we haven’t been winning ever since we’ve allowed the government to have the power that it has…

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:31 PM

Bull. Lots of churches have accepted the concept of gay marriage.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:03 PM

some have, the Bible never has, so these are not Bible beleiving churches. Rather culturally influenced churches which basically are preaching Secular Humanism using theological terms.

the Catholic Church use to sell Indulgences, also not in the bible. Corruption/sin within the church is nothing new

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:32 PM

No, it’s not a workable compromise. The state has an interest in promoting marriage between a man and a woman because it is the best way to raise healthy and happy children.

Blake on March 12, 2009 at 1:14 PM

It may be in the state’s interest, but the state is forbidden to require marriage before bearing children or to restrict marriage to couples who can bear children. There is a recognized individual right to marriage independent of the childbearing function.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM

but we haven’t been winning ever since we’ve allowed the government to have the power that it has

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:31 PM

So if we aren’t winning, give up the ghost? I imagine you aren’t suggesting that, hopefully.
The bold emphasizes our main problem in most everything that is wrong in America.
This is why assertion of state’s rights is more important than ever.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM

I don’t believe Kensington was generally equating communists and libertarians – he was pointing out both of their philosophies only work if you you largely ignore what we know of human behavior and history. He wasn’t saying the philosophies were similar in any other way.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:29 PM

To be fair, though, I am suggesting that Libertarians probably shouldn’t have any more credibility than Communists, for the reason you articulated above.

The world, our current administration notwithstanding, seems to have seen the light re Communism, but Libertarianism, so far, retains way too much favor with too many people (though not actually many people — thankfully).

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM

I don’t believe Kensington was generally equating communists and libertarians – he was pointing out both of their philosophies only work if you you largely ignore what we know of human behavior and history. He wasn’t saying the philosophies were similar in any other way.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:29 PM

Really?

If only it were given one more chance, presumably with the right people at the helm with the purest of intentions, we’d have Utopia rather than streets awash in red, whether ink or blood.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM

I’m confused. How many countries had libertarian governments that ended up murdering tens of millions of its citizens? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM

There is no such thing as a Fiscal Conservative. Even Ron Paul gives his constituents earmarks.

Speedwagon82 on March 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM

Liberal gays are willing to destroy marriage, the church, and our founding principles (recent legislative attack on the sovereignty of the Catholic church) in order to get government to officially declare that homosexuality is just as good/valuable/beneficial to society as heterosexuality.

Create life with your same-sex partner. Then, and only then will you have a case that homosexuality deserves to be treated on an equal footing with heterosexuality.

American Elephant on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

For a start, the Presbyterian church has determined that denominational law is not violated when their ministers oversee gay marriages. The United Church of Christ was the first church to announce their willingness to perform them. The Lutherans are also on the verge of approving gay marriage, as their recent votes on the matter were split 50-50.

To say that leaving it up to the churches will “lock out gay marriage” is ridiculous. There are also plenty of non-denominational churches out there in favor of them.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:11 PM

If the Lutheran church voted in approving it, I will leave that church. My old pastor used to say “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” By the church (well, Christian ones anyways) performing gay marriages they are officially endorsing and approving homosexuality and the lifestyle.

That (again, just my opinion) is the truth, regardless of what your view towards gay marriage is.

Rambler on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

I’m not going to bother arguing with you again, because you clearly aren’t interested in debating honestly.

Tacitus_SGL on March 12, 2009 at 1:31 PM

And by first replying to me with insults, you clearly ARE interested in debating honestly?

Hypocrite much?

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

sinsing on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

exactly, it “takes a village” as the commies/hillary say.

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:36 PM

Create life with your same-sex partner. Then, and only then will you have a case that homosexuality deserves to be treated on an equal footing with heterosexuality.

American Elephant on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

Bingo!

Rambler on March 12, 2009 at 1:36 PM

I’m confused. How many countries had libertarian governments that ended up murdering tens of millions of its citizens? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM

You aren’t familiar with the word “or”, I take it, as in “ink (Libertarianism) OR blood (Communism)”.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:37 PM

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 1:33 PM

I don’t disagree with you; however, the framework in which conservatives are trying to win is ridiculous. We are now working under the assumption that a “moderately” large government is beneficial to the country. When I say “we” I mean in general conservatives no longer question the legitimacy of a large government and when someone does point out the historic conservative beliefs on large government (ex. the gold standard), they are labeled a nut.

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:37 PM

For a start, the Presbyterian church has determined that denominational law is not violated when their ministers oversee gay marriages. The United Church of Christ was the first church to announce their willingness to perform them. The Lutherans are also on the verge of approving gay marriage, as their recent votes on the matter were split 50-50.

Reformed Presbyterians, Reformed Lutherns and Reformed Episcopalians do not condone Gay Marriage, especially by the church.

the larger, non-reformed humanist variety do however. Plenty of Reformed churches still out there.

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:37 PM

some have, the Bible never has, so these are not Bible beleiving churches. Rather culturally influenced churches which basically are preaching Secular Humanism using theological terms.

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:32 PM

We should keep the government quite far away from interpreting the Bible. Jefferson did some work with his scissors and Bible. Glad he didn’t do it in an official capacity.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM

If the Lutheran church voted in approving it, I will leave that church. My old pastor used to say “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” By the church (well, Christian ones anyways) performing gay marriages they are officially endorsing and approving homosexuality and the lifestyle.

That (again, just my opinion) is the truth, regardless of what your view towards gay marriage is.

Rambler on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

And just to be clear, like most conservative who favor initiatives like this, we value your right to leave the church if you want, and find a religion that doesn’t believe in gay marriage. Our aim isn’t to make anyone subscribe to any belief they don’t want, but precisely the opposite. Let the churchgoers believe what they want, and let the churches believe what they want.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM

Your church should be able to freely choose whether they find same-sex marriage to be within their doctrine, and nobody should be able to tell them they can’t practice that belief.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM

To be consistant, do you support churches who include peyote in their religious rites or polygamous sects? I’m curious.

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM

There is no such thing as a Fiscal Conservative. Even Ron Paul gives his constituents earmarks.

Speedwagon82 on March 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM

What does Ron Paul have to do with conservatism?

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM

…“sanctity” is a religious/philosophical construct and not something for governments to enforce, anyway.

+1

ernesto on March 12, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Create life with your same-sex partner. Then, and only then will you have a case that homosexuality deserves to be treated on an equal footing with heterosexuality.

American Elephant on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

Bingo!

Rambler on March 12, 2009 at 1:36 PM

2 gay geneticists walk into a lab…

ernesto on March 12, 2009 at 1:39 PM

You aren’t familiar with the word “or”, I take it, as in “ink (Libertarianism) OR blood (Communism)”.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:37 PM

The inclusion of those parentheses entirely changes the tone. If that was the original tone you implied, I apologize for my dismissive attitude. I would only suggest you be a bit more specific in that regard.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

For starters this proposal really doesn’t get the state out of the ‘marriage’ business – it just says the marriage business is now called the ‘domestic partnership’ business.

Churches can already marry people without the individuals involved getting a marriage license. The state is still defining and enforcing contracts that for all intents and purposes are a ‘marriage’.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 1:17 PM

My main concern with keeping the Government in the “marriage” business is purely semantics.
If the Government controls “marriage” (as opposed to “domestic contract”), and if a church refuses to perform a “marriage” for Joe & Joe, it seems the Government could be put into a position of coercing the church into performing the “marriage”.
I’m trying to figure out a way to 1) protect churches from being on the receiving end of Government coercion if they refuse marriage to gay couples (which is, unfortunately, where I see things headed right now) and 2) giving gay citizen’s relationships some type of formal legal protection under the Constitution.

Bruno Strozek on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

ernesto on March 12, 2009 at 1:39 PM

Now that’s funny, right there…

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Create life with your same-sex partner. Then, and only then will you have a case that homosexuality deserves to be treated on an equal footing with heterosexuality.

American Elephant on March 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM

By that logic the government could limit marriage to fertile couples and have another designation for gay and childless couples.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Can someone tell me why (quote from Ed):

the role of government in social constructs and religious practices

…is okie dokie, when we consider the type of religious and social oppression the monarchy forced upon it’s citizens,…Which ultimately was the reason why our Founding Fathers escaped, and formed this country?

Individuals should be allowed to have their own resources from which to draw moral lessons, without government getting in the way.

Placing government in a role that is traditionally held by religion, equals something taking the place of God. I.E. – If one depends on government to enforce “government-approved” morality, where is the incentive do it themselves, by way of living as a good example in society?

Helloooooo????!!!!

Talismen on March 12, 2009 at 1:41 PM

To be consistant, do you support churches who include peyote in their religious rites or polygamous sects? I’m curious.

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM

I’ve never considered the peyote rite, so I can’t tell you straight off the bat. As for polygamy, on that I am truly conflicted. I recognize that these arrangements could be entered into by clear-minded adults. However, the fact that other religions like Islam institute these kinds of marriages based on the principle that women are inferior to men (therefore justifying the idea of multiple women for one man) bothers the crap out of me. If it comes up for consideration, I’ll think about it more.

How about you(on both)? I could use some viewpoints.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:44 PM

jedijson on March 12, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Beat me to it. So, if it becomes just another contract, what justification does California have in preventing consenting adults from entering into multiple contracts?

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:25 PM

In my view, it has to do with the relationship granting unique privileges, such as what have traditionally been viewed as “spousal benefits”.

I’d actually like to see this concept take sex out of the civil union picture as well. When it comes to prohibitions (brother & sister, for example) make SEX between them illegal, not civil unions per se. This way a “civil union”, with the commensurate benefits, could be entered into by a man and the mother he supports, or by a woman and her mentally disabled brother, or two spinster sisters, or college roommates, etc. Any two people who want to set up relatively permanent housekeeping should be able to enter into a civil union. Some survivor benefits would need to be fine-tuned (don’t want 18-year-old Suzy getting lifetime survivor benefits when the grandfather she was caring for dies). But if the idea is to get government out of the moral approval/disapproval business, then let’s do it right!

Of course, “civil unions” also should be decoupled from adoption or similar laws. Just because two people enter into a contract doesn’t mean they would provide a good home. I’m personally in favor of preferential treatment for man/woman marriage, because there’s ample evidence that (all other things being equal) this is the best environment for children. Single or same-sex unions should be considered homes of last resort for children. Of course many will disagree.

RegularJoe on March 12, 2009 at 1:46 PM

My fourteen-year-old daughter suggested we give California to China and call it New China to repay our government debt. It would probably have laws that make more sense and become far more capitalist under the Communist China. I’m beginning to think the idea is not that outrageous.

petunia on March 12, 2009 at 1:47 PM

The inclusion of those parentheses entirely changes the tone. If that was the original tone you implied, I apologize for my dismissive attitude. I would only suggest you be a bit more specific in that regard.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

The word “or” was deliberate. I don’t want to have to do all the work here… :)

However, in retrospect it might have been more fair if I’d pointed my criticism specifically at the “fiscal conservative/social liberal” position rather than to Libertarianism in general, although that does seem to be the default position for a significant number of Libertarians.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:47 PM

I mean, after all, guys like Schwarzenneger, Snowe, Collins and Specter aren’t claiming to be Libertarians, right?

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:49 PM

some have, the Bible never has, so these are not Bible beleiving churches. Rather culturally influenced churches which basically are preaching Secular Humanism using theological terms.

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:32 PM

This debate only concerns those of us who are citizens of the USA. We’re a republic, not a theocracy.

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Ya know … it’s sad that people don’t see the writing on the wall. The only way to protect the church is to keep it separate – holy. That means detaching it from government, which we can all agree is about as unholy as anything gets. I’m half convinced a good portion of congress consists of vampires anyway … they suck your blood and resist damage; what else could they be?

TheUnrepentantGeek on March 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM

I personally don’t think that peyote in a religious rite is harmful. However, I can see where an “Our Lord of the Coca Plant” that would come after would have problems. As to polygamy, I think it’s extremely inconsistant to have police ignore hookers, crackheads, gangbangers, Folsom Fair, nudist colonies, sex parties, and adulterers and swoop down in righteous indignation on people who make stable nuclear families based on sincerely held religious beliefs. As long as everyone is of age and laws are followed as to coersion, etc, etc.

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM

By that logic the government could limit marriage to fertile couples and have another designation for gay and childless couples.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:40 PM

Yes, if a heterosexual woman is known to be 100% incapable of conceiving a child, then the government has no just power to regulate her marriage. Do note that I’ve rephrased your hypothetical just a bit; it’s not a question of the couple being fertile qua couple. A fertile woman with an infertile husband could still be artificially inseminated and become pregnant. Her children are then legally the responsibility of her husband, because of the way marriage law is written.

The Monster on March 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Wish I could retract/delete that. Understood your point on second reading.

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:55 PM

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM

My one thing with polygamy is that people might abuse it to take advantage of insurance companies … which sorta screws over all of us. Gotta be some way to limit that.

TheUnrepentantGeek on March 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM

some have, the Bible never has, so these are not Bible beleiving churches. Rather culturally influenced churches which basically are preaching Secular Humanism using theological terms.

jp on March 12, 2009 at 1:32 PM

This debate only concerns those of us who are citizens of the USA. We’re a republic, not a theocracy.

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Actually, this particular rabbit-trail had ONLY to do with internal church practice. I see no evidence that jp favors theocracy, only that he prefers Bible-following churches. Are you advocating he has no right to such a preference? Because I’m sensing some hostility….

RegularJoe on March 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM

As long as everyone is of age and laws are followed as to coersion, etc, etc.

theotherKate on March 12, 2009 at 1:54 PM

The Supreme Court has been somewhat on your side, telling the DEA that they can’t target churches unless the drug crimes reach a threshold of severity.

dedalus on March 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Wish I could retract/delete that. Understood your point on second reading.

DarkCurrent on March 12, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Glad to see you had backed off that. I now join you in wishing I could retract/delete.

RegularJoe on March 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM

The word “or” was deliberate. I don’t want to have to do all the work here… :)

However, in retrospect it might have been more fair if I’d pointed my criticism specifically at the “fiscal conservative/social liberal” position rather than to Libertarianism in general, although that does seem to be the default position for a significant number of Libertarians.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 1:47 PM

I think a lot of confusion comes in equating “socially liberal” with libertarianism. Socially, modern liberals are just as oppressive. They want to confiscate weapons, force citizens to change their lifestyles for environmental reasons, restrict their speech, etc.

There are plenty of ways that conservatives can disagree on social issues not based on agreement with liberal mindsets, but by applying a different standard of conservatism than merely “what the Bible says”.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 1:57 PM

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