California to abolish marriage?

posted at 12:16 pm on March 12, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

The back-and-forth over Proposition 8, which amended California’s constitution to define marriage as between one man and one woman, has generated plenty of debate, heat, and threats — and now a new initiative to change public policy on marriage altogether.  Attorney General Jerry Brown has submitted a referendum that would make California the first state in the nation to get entirely out of the marriage business [see update below].  If backers get enough signatures, any new marriages in the state would only get recognized as domestic-partnership contracts:

California same-sex “marriage” supporters are collecting signatures to support a ballot initiative that would remove civil marriage from California law entirely, as well as the provision codifying marriage as between a man and a woman.

The “Domestic Partnership Initiative” proposes to categorize all unions simply as “domestic partnerships,” while retaining all the rights of marriage for heterosexual couples, and extending them to homosexual couples.  According to the initiative’s summary, “Legally speaking, ‘Marriage’ itself would become a social ceremony, recognized by only non-governmental institutions.”

State Attorney General Jerry Brown submitted the official title and summary for the measure on Monday, about one week after opening arguments in lawsuits challenging Proposition 8, California’s true marriage amendment.

Brown realized after the state Supreme Court arguments over his challenge to Prop 8 that he had little chance of reversing it.  The justices seemed skeptical of Brown’s assertion that the citizens of the state could not amend the constitution through the referendum process without prior legislative approval, probably because the state has never challenged that right after previous successful initiatives.  That means that the only real suspense in the upcoming decision will be whether the state should recognize the 18,000 same-sex marriages certified by the state before Prop 8 passed.

The DPI is an interesting and provocative referendum that will force people to consider the role of government in social constructs and religious practices.  Those who argue that government has a duty to protect the sanctity of marriage will undoubtedly object, but that argument died on a pragmatic basis with no-fault divorce.  Though not all states have it, most do, and it demoted the marriage contract to the lowest rung in legal commitments by allowing one partner to break it at will with no consequences whatsoever.  On a philosophical basis, libertarians and some small-government conservatives would argue that “sanctity” is a religious/philosophical construct and not something for governments to enforce, anyway.

As a practical matter, eliminating marriage as a government sanction and forcing couples into partnership contracts would eliminate barriers to adoption and benefits for gay couples, at least in California.  It would also avoid the state-recognition issue that the Massachusetts Supreme Court created and which the Defense of Marriage Act attempted to pre-empt.  Since the couples would not have government-sanctioned “marriages”, other states would not have to recognize them as such, but the contracts would be enforceable anywhere in the US — probably a lot more enforceable than marriages are today.  Those who want to claim “marriage” could have that sanctioned by their religious organizations instead of relying on the state.

Most opposition to this will rest on adoption and the profound nature of changing the way society treats its foundational building block, the family.  In practice, DPI might not really change much anyway, since I believe California allows for private adoptions by singles and gay couples, and people are free to arrange their families in such manner anyway without government approval as “marriage” now.  However much the libertarian argument appeals to me — and it does — I have to wonder whether we gain much in taking such a step, and what we lose in comparison.

Update: An e-mailer reminds me of what I should have remembered in the first place:

Jerry Brown did not “submit” the initiative. He submitted the official title and summary of the measure. In California, citizen backed initiatives are first submitted to the Attorney General, who then is required by law to prepare an official title and summary of the measure which is to be used on the forms for petition gathering and also appears in the ballot pamphlet. There is an official time period in which the Attorney General has to generate the title and summary. So, the fact that the “title and summary” for this measure came out shortly after court arguments on Prop 8 is due to when the measure’s proponents filed the initiative and not to a scheme by Brown. Brown also “controversially” wrote the title and summary to Prop 8.

So it’s unfair to hang this on Brown, who is fulfilling his duties as AG.  My apologies to Mr. Brown.

Blowback

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However much the libertarian argument appeals to me — and it does — I have to wonder whether we gain much in taking such a step, and what we lose in comparison.

Libertarianism certainly has its attractive aspects. When the kids are grown, maybe we should consider it.

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:17 PM

Interesting concept. Bold.

Prepare, though, for 700 comments.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

WHOA! But at least you won’t have Nasty Divorces, dealing with joint accounts after a divorce. But lawyers will always find a way to make life interesting.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Getting rid of marriage still satisfies the goals of the left. As long as they can damage marriage, they succeed. Either make it meaningless through same sex, or abolish it altogether, either works.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Don’t complain too much, the looniness of this state is going to get much worse.

Weebork on March 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Speaking of marriage, looks like Levi isn’t going to marry Bristol Palin. Does anyone really want to hear a year of people calling the 2012 nominee white trash?

I await being called a Godless Heathen etc.

Speedwagon82 on March 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM

I think this will get less votes than Prop 8 did.

Y-not on March 12, 2009 at 12:20 PM

Speedwagon82 on March 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM

OFFS, can you just leave it along already!

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:20 PM

This referendum will be seen for waht it is and defeated.
This is just a revenge thing, take this all you people who voted for prop 8.
No chance of this passing

kangjie on March 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Why doesnt California just fall into the Pacific. So Jerry Brown figures that if gays cant get married, then no one should? wtf

becki51758 on March 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM

I guess it just proves there’s more than one way to try to get around the wishes of a state population.

kingsjester on March 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM

California to abolish marriage?

I hope this happens right way because I am nearing my tenth anniversary which means my wife gets half of my crap in a divorce. [/joke]

Claypigeon on March 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Either make it meaningless through same sex, or abolish it altogether, either works.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Actually, the whole heterosexual thing is kinda fishy. Maybe we better have the headshrinkers take a look at it. Might need to give it a dsm classification, for everyone’s sake. I mean just the carbon consequences of it alone are enough to question its rationale.

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Is this commensurate to getting rid of peanut butter in school cafeterias because a small percentage of children are allergic to peanuts?

carbon_footprint on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Getting rid of marriage still satisfies the goals of the left. As long as they can damage marriage, they succeed. Either make it meaningless through same sex, or abolish it altogether, either works.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Getting rid of government acknowledgment of marriage wouldn’t damage it. In my view, marriage should only be subject to the constraints of your religious beliefs.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Good idea…and we can drop “community property”…and this stupid thing called child support…no more “domestic violence” laws…sure we can just change our whole little culture because 4% of the population isn’t the same as the other 96%.

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Honey, I love you and one day, we’ll settle down and sign a contract together.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Is this commensurate to getting rid of peanut butter in school cafeterias because a small percentage of children are allergic to peanuts?

carbon_footprint on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Ahh the allergic to commitment….

Women will drive in droves to vote this one down. lol

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Speedwagon –

White trash wouldn’t know who the father was.

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

Why not abolish California? I am sure that proposition would get strong support in the other 49 states.

Norwegian on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

I’m telling your new friends :)

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

In my view, marriage should only be subject to the constraints of your religious beliefs.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Mine too, until you consider adoption and other similar issues. The state should have no say in marriage, but since they barged in anyway, there are other legal consequences to consider now.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

What a waste of the most beautiful state in America to be inhabited by these freak of nature crybabies!

anniekc on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Actually, the whole heterosexual thing is kinda fishy. Maybe we better have the headshrinkers take a look at it. Might need to give it a dsm classification, for everyone’s sake. I mean just the carbon consequences of it alone are enough to question its rationale.

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Yeah, maybe the AMA should class it as a mental disorder, just to square the circle, lol.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Is this commensurate to getting rid of peanut butter in school cafeterias because a small percentage of children are allergic to peanuts?

carbon_footprint on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Exactly…where the great minority, because they are vocal, whine about inequities.
I think Brown is trying to give us the shaft, stick it to us, but we won’t bend over…nor will we allow him to sneak his agenda in through the back door…

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

White trash wouldn’t know who the father was.

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

White trash would also think a DVD set is an appropriate gift to a foreign dignitary. Oh wait…

Norwegian on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

What a waste of the most beautiful state in America to be inhabited by these freak of nature crybabies!

anniekc on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Ummm annie, lets get you out of Cali and see the rest of the States. Cali isn’t all that.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

One more reason not to live in California.

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Why not abolish California? I am sure that proposition would get strong support in the other 4956 states.

Norwegian on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Fixed to reflect the Obama count.

leetpriest on March 12, 2009 at 12:26 PM

Nope, nope, nope, the gays aren’t interested because it’s never been about marriage, it’s been about going after the church.

John the Libertarian on March 12, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Norwegian on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Gosh darn it, there I go, snorting my Diet Mt.Dew up my nose again!!! LOL

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:27 PM

it demoted the marriage contract to the lowest rung in legal commitments by allowing one partner to break it at will with no consequences whatsoever.

Texas is a no-fault divorce state, but believe me, the judge divides the community property disproportionately biased against the spouse he perceives is at fault for the divorce.

txsurveyor on March 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Sounds pretty much par for the course, they way we’re going.

Abolish marriage. Kill the concepts of commitment and personal responsibility. Abort the babies we don’t want. Manufacture the babies we do want. Let the global village “raise” our children. Teach unhealthy mindsets in public schools. Don’t teach history. Promote deviant lifestyles. Say homosexuality is right. Say heterosexuality is wrong. Make “gay” the mainstream. Make heterosexuality illegal. Continue manufacturing babies in labs or with basters since men and women can no longer mate. Screw as many people as you can. Teach children to start early having sex. Everybody dies from AIDS and other STDS.

Yeah… that sounds like a perfect society to me.

ErinF on March 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Drop marriage in California? Sure thing.

Let’s make every man’s home his castle…you know…NO government interference beyond the door step.

This may may not be such a bad thing after all.

And if a mere 4% of a population can inflict social-apartheid on the other 96%…maybe we, the mere 40-60% of the population, can have a symmetrically louder voice?

Start making out your wish lists.

coldwarrior on March 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Jerry Brown – “If Linda Rodstadt wouldn’t marry me, then no one should be married.”

Norweigian – We can’t abolish California. They’ve got a lot of good people out there. Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn, Ashley Judd,my 2nd ex-wife…wait a minute…on second thought…

kingsjester on March 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Homosexual marriage: What can it hurt?

spmat on March 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Texas is a no-fault divorce state, but believe me, the judge divides the community property disproportionately biased against the spouse he perceives is at fault for the divorce.

txsurveyor on March 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM

Depends on how long they have been married as well.

Alaska is no fault, but after 20 yrs of marriage and they are getting a divorce… the judge takes notes.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:30 PM

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:25 PM

Absolutely!! There are other states just as gorgeous. “See the USA, in your Chevrolet” – Oops, better make that a Toyota

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:30 PM

This will not go anywhere. The people of kalifornia who voted already will stomp it.

Gays have to get used to it. Hey, you can always move to France.

dogsoldier on March 12, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Why not abolish California? I am sure that proposition would get strong support in the other 49 states.

Norwegian on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

59 states…you are out of touch with the new administration.

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Isn’t the title a little misleading here?
California has this Prop does not abolish marriage.
The state would not recognize marriage any longer.

Rocks on March 12, 2009 at 12:32 PM

I support this concept. The marriage certificate you get from the state is only useful as a legal arrangement anyway. The important stuff goes on between me, my wife, and my creator.

TheUnrepentantGeek on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

dogsoldier on March 12, 2009 at 12:31 PM

Make the San Francisco Bay Area a separate state. Proceed from there.

coldwarrior on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but this is the resolution I’ve wanted all along. Not that I’m thrilled to be agreeing with Jerry Brown, mind you, but this way churches can decide who they want to marry without having to be agents of the state.

Farmer_Joe on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I hope this happens right way because I am nearing my tenth anniversary which means my wife gets half of my crap in a divorce. [/joke]

Claypigeon on March 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM

Too late…I was married for only 7 years (the happiest 6 months of my life), and she got 100% of my crap.

But, that’s OK…I won the kids.

Not Over.

1GooDDaDDy on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

Wouldn’t this as well as same sex marriage pretty much take the wind out of the gay movement? What would they claim is being deigned them if they get this? Wouldn’t they just end up having to fad back into the background because who would care about them?

jmarcure on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

All of this talk completely loses sight of one significant point: The union of one man and one woman, and what that singularly unique union produces, is the fundamental building block all states, including California, rely on to continue to exist.

It is vital for the continued existence of any culture or nation that the institution of heterosexual marriage not only be supported, but encouraged. This is, after all, an acknowledgment of the very nature of being human, and the continuance of the species. …It is so mind-numbingly simple it is almost stupid to mention.

Taking the legs out from under tradition marriage is the suicidal undermining of humanity’s most primary and fundamental relationships. You must be daft to believe no negative consequences will come of it.

And as an aside, the state has NO fundamental responsibility to support gay marriage, as it is the very nature of that union to NOT produce future citizens, workers, leaders, etc. Same sex marriages do not produce offspring. It is that simple. And so, the state has no reliance on that union for future generations.

In fact, same sex couples can ONLY exist if heterosexual couples exist. The opposite is not true.

The two unions are NOT the same.

California is cutting it’s own cultural throat.

Daddy-O on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

On a philosophical basis, libertarians and some small-government conservatives would argue that “sanctity” is a religious/philosophical construct and not something for governments to enforce, anyway.

+1

toliver on March 12, 2009 at 12:34 PM

Does that mean that me and my 12yr old girl friend could live together, without me worrying about being arrested. After all the law says she has to have permission from her parents to get married, but since they are doing away with marriage, it makes the law moot.

BruceB on March 12, 2009 at 12:34 PM

But, that’s OK…I won the kids.

1GooDDaDDy on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

Congrats from another “seven-percenter.” I got the kids too…100%.

coldwarrior on March 12, 2009 at 12:35 PM

You know…. this could be a way to make everyone pay taxes on single incomes and give the state a much-needed “revenue enhancement.” Because if they don’t change the tax rules, then I can just sign a contract with my unemployed roommate and decrease my state tax burden significantly. I have a hard time seeing how this wouldn’t either mean a tax increase for some married couples or a revenue shortfall for the state.

By the way, nice headline, Ed, but abolishing state recognition of marriage is not the same as abolishing marriage (as any libertarian worth his or her salt could tell you).

calbear on March 12, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Interesting concept. Bold.

Prepare, though, for 700 comments.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

How did The Founding Fathers see the Governments role in traditional Marriage??? Are we or are we NOT going to support our Founders and the intent??? Just asking…

Mark Garnett on March 12, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Put the gays in Alaska and let them do whatever they want up there.

The Dean on March 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Put the gays in Alaska and let them do whatever they want up there.

The Dean on March 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Wow, spoken like a true idiot. You don’t think those who like the same sex aren’t already up here trying to change the laws?

Gos I hate stupid people!

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM

What a waste of the most beautiful state in America to be inhabited by these freak of nature crybabies!

anniekc on March 12, 2009 at 12:24 PM

We all have our favorites, and after 5 decades in California, as a native California…no doubt Californian is beautiful.
But, so is North Carolina.
The beaches are much nicer, no real MOUNTAINS, but the mountains in the western part are beautiful and full of wild life. Great fishing, camping, boating, 4 seasons…
You need to get out more…Colorado, PA, WY, MT, TX, so many great states.

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM

California vision of Marriage:

A Joint Venture between 2 contracting parties. Nothing more.

BobMbx on March 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM

How did The Founding Fathers see the Governments role in traditional Marriage???

Mark Garnett on March 12, 2009 at 12:35 PM

Good question. I’d like to see some literature on it.

Coming from the root of it, though, I would think the founding fathers would want the government to keep its nose out of the spiritual commitments of its citizens. Anything that makes the government smaller, I’m up for. I’m especially up for ideas like this that force the federal government to tax citizens less.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

*gets down on one knee*

Honey, will you domestic partnership with me?

*holds out little silken box with state contract glittering inside*

Bishop on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

Put the gays in Alaska and let them do whatever they want up there.

The Dean on March 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

It is too cold for muscle t-shirts and cut off jean shorts in Alaska.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

I’ll probably get flamed for this, but this is the resolution I’ve wanted all along. Not that I’m thrilled to be agreeing with Jerry Brown, mind you, but this way churches can decide who they want to marry without having to be agents of the state.

Farmer_Joe on March 12, 2009 at 12:33 PM

I’m more interested in seeing how the gay community reacts to this. If I were a betting man, I’d say that they won’t be thrilled. My sense is that this initiative will do little to force acceptance of their lifestyle, which seems to have been their goal from the start.

landshark on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

I favor getting the government OUT of the marriage biz. Having just civil unions is a way to do that.

I don’t want them offering any other sacraments either.

Consanescerion on March 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM

I agree with Ed’s argument.

I’ve been arguing nearly the same thing for a few years now, ever since the topic of “gay marriage” was placed on the front burner.

In my view, if we allow government to push a moral agenda, based on “government-approved” morals, then we’re allowing government to be put in place of all other resources we turn to for lessons in morality (churches, temples, spiritual leaders, etc etc).

A thing which is not moral, (government), should not be giving advice or lessons on morality.

Individuals utilizing their own morals when judging the calibur of political candidates, is the best way for good moral character to influence governmental business and policy. I.E. – as individual voters, we look at a candidate’s background and issue stances, using our own moral “compass” to judge whether or not that person is of good moral character (as we define it). In turn, if we elect persons who we feel have passed our “moral smell test”, and they then use their own morals when deciding on votes or stances once in office….THAT is the best way to infuse morality into govermental business.

But, looking to governments for lessons on morality, doesn’t work. It’s like going to your butcher and asking him advice on how to become a vegetarian.

Talismen on March 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM

Speedwagon –

White trash wouldn’t know who the father was.

catlady on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

yeah, but I’m sure all the non-Whites will know for sure…
/sarc

max1 on March 12, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Gos I hate stupid people!

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM

Worried about the competition?
People think that only one state has gays…they are 4% of the population, and they are integrated in most every activity…from church to theater (obvious), and maybe even military.
However, only in Alaska can you hunt them by plane…though the season is short and it is difficult to get tags…

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM

The “Domestic Partnership Initiative” proposes to categorize all unions simply as “domestic partnerships,” while retaining all the rights of marriage for heterosexual couples, and extending them to homosexual couples. According to the initiative’s summary, “Legally speaking, ‘Marriage’ itself would become a social ceremony, recognized by only non-governmental institutions.”

Am I a moron or does this not really get states out of the ‘marriage’ business? The state would still be in the ‘domestic partnership’ business. All this really seems to do is change the ‘name’ used in order to sidestep the issue.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM

I can’t argue against California citizens deciding what California law should look like. This hands-off proposal has many interesting twists and turns for other States’ Rights folks to ponder on. It will be fun to watch this one.

Limerick on March 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM

No-fault divorce has certainly made it easier to divorce–that is, eliminate the status of marriage between a previously married couple. You no longer have to plead and prove grounds; you merely have to prove a certain time of separation (say, one year) and seek the divorce.

Property division is a separate matter. Sure, before no-fault, grounds such as adultery were often used by wives to wield more lucrative settlements. But equitable distribution statutes that exist in most states attempt to acknowledge the contributions of both spouses to the marriage. Considerable time goes into identifying separate property and marital property, with spouses walking away with his or her separate property and the marital property divided “equitably.”

The question I have is the affect on so many things if you eliminate the status of marriage. Tax filing status. Inheritance laws. Many default provisions in third-party beneficiary contracts. For example, husband or wife has a group-term life policy through employer. But boneheads don’t bother completing a beneficiary designation. Invariably, a surviving spouse is the first default beneficiary. What do you do if there is no surviving spouse?

Fine, remedy all these situations, but it’s a lot of work just because Gerry Brown has a zany idea.

BuckeyeSam on March 12, 2009 at 12:44 PM

Sigh…

Libertarians live in a fantasy land where culture and politics are two ships passing in the night, and never the twain shall meet. “The government should not be involved in marriagae at all. It is just a contract between two individuals. Blah, blah blah.” Stop it already. Who exactly do they think is going to adjudicate or enforce the contract?

Libertarians aren’t fighting for a poltical objective, they are fighting a human inevitablity. People will codify their culture, period. One can argue for it or against it it but fighting it is futile. There is no such thing as a completely secular society, none.

Libertarians as a whole need to get over it and accept that social conservatives are neccesary. Their ideal of a socially liberal fiscal conservative does not exist. Collins, Snowe, Specter, Schwarzenegger those are their models and look what they have given to government in the way of fiscal conservatism. (Not to lay everything at Libertarians feet, the social conservatives need to lay off the farm pork, but that is for another thread.)

Theworldisnotenough on March 12, 2009 at 12:44 PM

I personally couldn’t care less about this issue because I don’t live in CA and don’t want to ever live in CA.

But if the democrats want to start losing elections even in CA, this seems to be a good way to go about it. Goodbye gender gap.

funky chicken on March 12, 2009 at 12:45 PM

They’re coming to take California away, ha-haaa.
They’re coming to take California away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa.
To the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time and they’ll be happy
to see those nice young men in their clean white coats and they’re coming
to take California away, ha-haaa!!!
To the happy home, with trees and flowers and chirping birds and basket
weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes and they’re
coming to take California away, ha-haa!!!
To the funny farm, where life is gay and beautiful all the time……
- Napoleon XIV

MB4 on March 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Getting rid of marriage still satisfies the goals of the left. As long as they can damage marriage, they succeed. Either make it meaningless through same sex, or abolish it altogether, either works.

Vashta.Nerada on March 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM

Actually, I think the left doesn’t want to abolish marriage. How can they control “married” people if the government (their vehicle) doesn’t give out marriage licenses anymore?

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM

You mean by helicopter now? I was at the Board of game meetings. Bear baiting for pred control while flying in via heli is not exactly ideal in my eyes…

And no, not worried. I know a guy who is gay and is probably one of the best hunters I have ever met.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Getting rid of government acknowledgment of marriage wouldn’t damage it. In my view, marriage should only be subject to the constraints of your religious beliefs.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

The whole issue, in a nutshell. +10

Nicely stated, MadCon.

MrScribbler on March 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Put the gays in Alaska…

The Dean on March 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Anti-semitic and anti-gay. Wunderbar.

Deportation. It’s what’s for dinner.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:47 PM

All this really seems to do is change the ‘name’ used in order to sidestep the issue.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM

It’s even funnier than that. Suppose no hetero couples opt for the civil union/domestic partnerships at all, and instead choose religious marriage. Won’t that put the gays right back where they are in Ca?

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM

I’m more interested in seeing how the gay community reacts to this. If I were a betting man, I’d say that they won’t be thrilled. My sense is that this initiative will do little to force acceptance of their lifestyle, which seems to have been their goal from the start.

landshark on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

From a tactical standpoint they should love it. It clears the playing field for a recodification of marriage that includes homosexuals. See my previous post, codification of marriage will never go away. So this would take it to square one and allow gays to start from the beginning.

Theworldisnotenough on March 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM

I’m more interested in seeing how the gay community reacts to this. If I were a betting man, I’d say that they won’t be thrilled. My sense is that this initiative will do little to force acceptance of their lifestyle, which seems to have been their goal from the start.

landshark on March 12, 2009 at 12:39 PM

Yes, because one “right” for which many of them (the gays) are fighting for is a marriage that must be recognized by the churches… Because a church not recognizing gay marriage = HATE CRIME!

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM

And no, not worried. I know a guy who is gay and is probably one of the best hunters I have ever met.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Exactly, the stereo types of “gays” is foolish…but it is also brought on by the “good” who do not condemn the action of the “Folsom” group, or the other radicals.
They just move to Alaska and hunt…

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Honey, I love you and one day, we’ll settle down and sign a contract together.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 12:23 PM

O, you silver-tongued devil!

*swoon*

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Until gays hear from heterosexuals that there’s nothing wrong with them, and their lifestyle is of equal standing to hetero relationships, this won’t stop. And if the hetero’s won’t say it, the gays will try to destroy the society and system that allows them to withhold their approval.

JiangxiDad on March 12, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Did I miss any “Governor Moonbeam” references? Brown’s irrelevant.

the_souse on March 12, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Put the gays in Alaska…

The Dean on March 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM

First you have to hunt them down, and then tag em…
Transporting is difficult, one suggestion is to put them in a closet and ship them that way…

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Exactly, the stereo types of “gays” is foolish…but it is also brought on by the “good” who do not condemn the action of the “Folsom” group, or the other radicals.
They just move to Alaska and hunt…

right2bright on March 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM

right, I don’t care if they are gay. What they do behind closed doors in not my problem.

I am tired of the radical that move up here. We have enough greenies here in Anchorage that they closed trapping and hunting on bears and moose. Moose is a HUGE problem right now as we have almost 2000 wandering in Anchorage… and the bears are coming into town now due to the calves. The “greenies” from Cali like to watch them… i hope they like being stomped by mama moose and mauled by mama grizzly again this year.

upinak on March 12, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Getting rid of government acknowledgment of marriage wouldn’t damage it. In my view, marriage should only be subject to the constraints of your religious beliefs.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Well stated… Not sure the Gay Agenda gets helped by this. Which makes me happy, but we must stand for small Government.

Mark Garnett on March 12, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Yes, because one “right” for which many of them (the gays) are fighting for is a marriage that must be recognized by the churches… Because a church not recognizing gay marriage = HATE CRIME!

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 12:50 PM

No, no. I’m sure we’ve heard the last of that sort of talk.

Why, the Left is known for their tolerance of dissenting opinions.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 12:54 PM

Not recognizing marriage legally in itself wouldn’t really matter.

But if anyone thinks that this issue would end once and for all right there, you’re very naive. The people involved in the movement behind all this from the beginning wil NOT let it go.
The leftists will not stop until all churches, no matter what religion, are forced to marry samesex. It doesn’t matter whether the state recognizes it or not.
It’s about the act itself, and then of course contolling / dominating others that disagree with them.

yellow_railroad on March 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM

my 2nd ex-wife husband…wait a minute…on second thought…

kingsjester on March 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM

Seems we have something in common LOL!

Seriously-I hate the govt intervening in lives too, but marriage is too important for a healthy society.
Kids on average are better off psychologically in a 2 parent, stable home joined in a REAL marriage than they are in anything else.
Even kids who are raised by a widowed parent are better off than those of single parent homes or ‘partner’ homes etc.
Ever since the law injected itself into our families through no-fault divorce, Social Services, CPS, etc being able to STEAL our children away from us while trampling our individual Constitutional rights, I’d say the govt has a lot of explaining to do already without doing this crap.
And how does it make anyone feel when a ‘domestic partnership’ is legally all you have & the other person can walk away any time with no consequences, which is what marriage has been reduced to in some states.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Well stated… Not sure the Gay Agenda gets helped by this. Which makes me happy, but we must stand for small Government.

Mark Garnett on March 12, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Honestly, when I oppose government size and overreach, it’s not because they’ve been in the business of sanctioning the relationships that produce the future generations that will sustain the country.

That’s not really the problem.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Again, marriage is important for the good of society & if you trivialize it $hit hits the fan.
It has already been trivialized since the ’60s & look at the broken home rate for kids!
They need stability & a legally recognized marriage gives our children that promise.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM

There is a small portion of the gay marriage contingent that will be satisfied if all marriage is abolished. These are typically the people who are truly concerned with having all of the contractural elements of marriage.

But the larger portion of the gay marriage contingent really does want acceptance and will not be content until their marriage is considered the exact same as a heterosexual marriage. They will keep fighting even if the state gives in enough to cover the benefits of marriage without calling it marriage.

myrenovations on March 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM

But if anyone thinks that this issue would end once and for all right there, you’re very naive.

Thank you! I think that consistently saying “no” to the Left as often as possible can only be in the best interests of everyone, even them.

Kensington on March 12, 2009 at 12:58 PM

If only liberals’ exploitation of libertarian concepts were anything more than a means to an end!

Chaz on March 12, 2009 at 12:59 PM

California is imploding. Victor Hanson describes it best. Too many people with way too much idle time.

Ernest on March 12, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Sigh…

Libertarians live in a fantasy land where culture and politics are two ships passing in the night, and never the twain shall meet. “The government should not be involved in marriagae at all. It is just a contract between two individuals. Blah, blah blah.” Stop it already. Who exactly do they think is going to adjudicate or enforce the contract?

Libertarians aren’t fighting for a poltical objective, they are fighting a human inevitablity. People will codify their culture, period. One can argue for it or against it it but fighting it is futile. There is no such thing as a completely secular society, none.

Libertarians as a whole need to get over it and accept that social conservatives are neccesary. Their ideal of a socially liberal fiscal conservative does not exist. Collins, Snowe, Specter, Schwarzenegger those are their models and look what they have given to government in the way of fiscal conservatism. (Not to lay everything at Libertarians feet, the social conservatives need to lay off the farm pork, but that is for another thread.)

Theworldisnotenough on March 12, 2009 at 12:44 PM

+1

Philosophically I agree with a lot of libertarians but it’s a mostly impractical philosophy and venture. It only works of all proponents of all sides of an issue are willing to not push their agenda on a political/legal level – good luck with that.

gwelf on March 12, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Nope, nope, nope, the gays aren’t interested because it’s never been about marriage, it’s been about going after the church.

John the Libertarian on March 12, 2009 at 12:27 PM

Exactly, by returning marriage to the church, it would be forever off-limits to gays, which is not what they want. They don’t want civil rights, they want civil acceptance.

BohicaTwentyTwo on March 12, 2009 at 1:00 PM

What it boils down to is that the libs get rid of the term “marriage” by making everyone have ‘a civil union’. If they can’t have the term, NO ONE CAN. Well aren’t we all just sooooo ‘tolerant’, soooo ‘compassionate’, soooo ‘understanding’, soooooo FULL OF BULL SHIT!

While we’re at it, why don’t we just abolish CRIME? Let’s call it ‘alternative destructive behavior’. See? We won’t have CRIME anymore. Life will be wonderful.

GarandFan on March 12, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Dumb idea.

Sore losers.

society is still too normal to legitimize gaydome.

Jerry Brown is a clown.

I am getting the Galt out of here….

The Wall on March 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Getting rid of government acknowledgment of marriage wouldn’t damage it. In my view, marriage should only be subject to the constraints of your religious beliefs.

MadisonConservative on March 12, 2009 at 12:22 PM

Agreed. Supporters of “traditional marriage” should be reminded that for as long as the concept of marriage has existed, it’s typically been an arrangement between private parties and religious institutions. I’m not convinced that the government has any role in defining this relationship. The only place the government should have in marriage is its role in mediating contract disputes.

Enrique on March 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Again, marriage is important for the good of society & if you trivialize it $hit hits the fan.
It has already been trivialized since the ’60s & look at the broken home rate for kids!
They need stability & a legally recognized marriage gives our children that promise.

Badger40 on March 12, 2009 at 12:57 PM

The government seems to be doing a fine job of trivializing marriage. Let the religious groups prop up marriage (they used to do this quite well). The government only keeps redefining because the government is the arm of the progressive movement (this is the nature of big government)

Upstater85 on March 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM

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