David Frum Does Not Speak for Me Any More Than Rush Limbaugh Does
posted at 7:00 am on March 8, 2009 by Patterico
I recently risked being labeled one of the “oddballs” at Hot Air when I said that, while I believe Rush Limbaugh is a very talented salesman for conservative values, I think it would be counterproductive to set him up as the head of the conservative movement. As long as I’m carrying around “NOT IN MY NAME” placards, let me add another person who doesn’t speak for me: David Frum.
Frum has a NEWSWEEK piece that expands on his recent comments about Rush Limbaugh. Even as Frum purports to set forth his conservative bonafides, he undermines them:
I supported the Iraq War and (although I feel kind of silly about it in retrospect) the impeachment of Bill Clinton.
I don’t see why a conservative would feel “silly” about having supported the impeachment of a man who committed perjury and obstruction of justice, and abused the power of his office to destroy the reputations of people whom he considered a political danger. Frum makes no argument why Clinton’s impeachment was wrong. Without that argument, his comment seems like an unnecessary concession to the liberal cocktail set — a way to get the “good people” to take his argument seriously.
Frum also repeats an offensive set of comments he made on his blog earlier this week — comments that I bashed as contradictory and unnecessarily insulting:
With his private plane and his cigars, his history of drug dependency and his personal bulk, not to mention his tangled marital history, Rush is a walking stereotype of self-indulgence—exactly the image that Barack Obama most wants to affix to our philosophy and our party.
In other words, Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot. Well, Mr. Frum, we already have one too many Al Frankens in politics. We don’t need another. Limbaugh’s bulk and private life have bupkis to do with his arguments, and you devalue the debate if you maintain that they are in any way relevant.
Here’s where Frum almost makes a good point, except that he phrases it in a hopelessly naive way:
Notice that Limbaugh did not say: “I hope the administration’s liberal plans fail.” Or (better): “I know the administration’s liberal plans will fail.” Or (best): “I fear that this administration’s liberal plans will fail, as liberal plans usually do.” If it had been phrased that way, nobody could have used Limbaugh’s words to misrepresent conservatives as clueless, indifferent or gleeful in the face of the most painful economic crisis in a generation. But then, if it had been phrased that way, nobody would have quoted his words at all—and as Limbaugh himself said, being “headlined” was the point of the exercise. If it had been phrased that way, Limbaugh’s face would not now be adorning the covers of magazines. He phrased his hope in a way that drew maximum attention to himself, offered maximum benefit to the administration and did maximum harm to the party he claims to support.
It’s crazy to say that “nobody could have used Limbaugh’s words to misrepresent conservatives . . .” Of course they could have, and of course they would have. They always do. That’s standard operating procedure for the media and leftists (but I repeat myself).
What Frum should have said is that phrasing the statement in the ways he suggests would have made it harder to distort Limbaugh’s meaning. Not impossible — just harder.
The problem with saying “I hope he fails” is that it’s open to so many interpretations. Reasonable people hearing “I hope he fails” might think Limbaugh hopes Obama’s policies, once enacted, will fail to save the economy. You think that’s a ridiculous interpretation? You may think you know what Limbaugh meant — but no matter what you think, there are conservatives equally certain that he meant something different.
I ran a poll on my site yesterday in which I said: of course no conservative wants Obama’s policies enacted. Of course Rush wants Obama to “fail” to enact them. But, assuming Obama’s policies are enacted anyway, do you interpret Rush to be saying that he wants the policies to 1) succeed, meaning the economy improves? or 2) fail, meaning socialism fails, allowing conservative principles to re-emerge?
The responses — primarily from conservative readers with no desire to misread Limbaugh’s words — were all over the map:
“It was #1, and no doubt about it.”
“Patterico, I think it is very clear that Mr. Limbaugh means #2″
“#1 obviously.”
“Of course Limbaugh meant #2.”
If conservatives are this confused about Limbaugh’s message, then he didn’t express it clearly enough. And given the visibility of his CPAC speech, and the controversial nature of his remarks, he needed to be clear.
Some say: conservatives can’t worry about how they say things. They know their arguments will be distorted anyway, so they shouldn’t worry about being misinterpreted. I completely disagree with this argument. I say: when you know people will distort your meaning, you have to be extra careful to express yourself clearly.
Granted, there’s a tension between making your argument clear, and giving it punch. I understand and respect the view that if you word your statements in too lawyerly a fashion, with clarifications and caveats, you might sacrifice the forcefulness of your argument.
But you can be forceful and clear all at the same time. For example, Rush could have said: “It doesn’t matter what I hope for. I know he’ll fail.” That would have been just as effective and compelling — but possibly less controversial. And while the controversy generated by this uncertainty over Rush’s meaning has been good for his ratings, it’s doubtful that it has been good for conservatives.
What’s more, in his CPAC speech, he went out of his way to describe liberals as “deranged”:
I have learned how to tweak liberals everywhere. I do it instinctively now. Tweak them in the media. And no reason to be afraid of these people. Why in the world would you be afraid of the deranged?
Using the word “deranged” to describe liberals as a whole is just silly. It’s true of some of them. But not all of them. Calling liberals deranged may make you feel good, and it may make you laugh. But many of you consider Limbaugh to be the spokesman of the conservative movement — and if our spokesmen regularly say stuff like that, we’ll alienate voters. And then, we’ll get eight years of Obama and his crazy spending that is killing our children’s future.
When I choose leaders and spokesmen for my party and my political movement, I want clarity, vigor, integrity, perspective, and a lack of pettiness. In my view, David Frum — with his comments about Limbaugh’s bulk and personal life — showed pettiness. With his ambivalence about Clinton’s impeachment — not justified by any argument but made as an aside as if to curry favor with the elite — Frum lacks the integrity of a true conservative.
Rush has many of the above qualities — but when he calls liberals “deranged,” I think he lacks perspective. And when he said “I hope he fails,” I think he sacrificed clarity for controversy.
We can do better. Rush Limbaugh does not speak for me. And neither does David Frum.
UPDATE: At the same time, we can’t allow Democrats to seize the moral high ground on this. Here’s hard proof they didn’t want Bush to succeed.










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Allah gets ribbed here from time to time Patrick, and overall he’s got tons of respect from a majority of commenters, including me. I sincerly doubt Michelle would take one “dufus’s” suggestion seriously. And you have to admit there might be a “few” crackpots roaming at PP?
(every time open registration happen’s here, the flood gates open and it just takes a while for Allah and Ed to “weed the garden”. Since I’ve moved over here from Cap’s Quarters, I’ve notice Allah’s been more than patient with the “dufus crowd”)
Rovin on March 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM
I don’t want to come off like I am picking on you, but you seem to have WIMP coming out of all of your pores. You are whining here, excessively.
What kind of leadership qualities do you believe you exude?
Bizarro No. 1 on March 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Can anyone name one liberal that purports to have a sane and responsible policy?
If someone espouses policies that you disagree with, however strongly, that does not make them “deranged.”
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM
I was a registered Democrat for years. When the elections came and I saw who was running, I ran and registered a Republican! I will remain in the Republican Party. As I saw it, Hillary and Obama are leftists. Hillary’s Thesis was evident that she is a communist. I am done with Democrats completely.
sheebe on March 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM
I agree that this is not the forum for that particular drama, but there is definitely something to learn from Goldstein and Patterico. Rather than diving into a he-said-she-said debacle, what if Patterico and Goldstein each guest posted an essay to Hot Air (or you link a post from their sites) describing the current GOP political environment and how we need to transform the party in order to win…emphasis on communication/message. The Rush issue is just a canvas for these arguments I think.
blankminde on March 8, 2009 at 11:47 AM
To the majority here, this would be the heart and soul of the party…or from the looks of it more and more, the heart and balls.
RepubChica on March 8, 2009 at 11:47 AM
It’s not a dodge. It’d be one thing if Pat was using the site to attack other bloggers but he’s not. This is his opinion, take it or leave it. I’m amazed that anyone suddenly thinks we owe “equal time” to anyone else just because they happen to disagree with someone who posts here.
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 11:47 AM
I’m amazed that anyone suddenly thinks we owe “equal time” to anyone else just because they happen to disagree with someone who posts here.
Obama and his minions will see to it that all Internet sites give equal time in due course.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Standing in the middle of the road will usually end up with you getting run over.
thomasaur on March 8, 2009 at 11:50 AM
And that is why Obama must fail.
Dawnsblood on March 8, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Patterico, here’s the issue right here… Liberalism is the problem and that is what Rush calls deranged. You are bringing it back to a fantasy attack on an idividual. There is little if anything with in liberal policy that works. In fact they are destructive.
katy on March 8, 2009 at 11:51 AM
Kinda funny because when the Republicans kept whimping out, I registered as an independent when I moved to NJ. I’ll vote for a conservative all day long but I am done with RINO’s. I think both parties have been highjacked.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 11:52 AM
I just logged in to find this thread.
Isn’t is possible that EVERYONE is taking ALL of this waaaaay too seriously.
I mean, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes Rush Limbaugh says stuff just to be controversial and get attention.
While I am delighted with the takedown of David Frum, I’m tired of this story now. Too many smart people like Patterico are wasting too much time and bandwidth talking about it instead of rallying to oppose Obama’s policies. And that is sad, because that was the whole POINT of Rahm Emanuel’s tawdry manufactured campaign against Limbaugh.
rockmom on March 8, 2009 at 11:52 AM
It is really rude to call a man unmasculine, you know. Patterico is a guest here.
Frivolous on March 8, 2009 at 11:52 AM
I was a registered Democrat for years. When the elections came and I saw who was running, I ran and registered a Republican! I will remain in the Republican Party.
Question for you: did you consider yourself “deranged” when you were voting Democrat? How would you have reacted to hearing an important conservative describing liberals as “deranged” in a well-publicized speech? The first question is obviously rhetorical, but the second is a serious question.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Pat
Your own timeline this post was written after your “poll”, which in and of itself rejected the premise of WHO “owns” speech … the speaker or the listener.
That is and remains to be the primary point of each and every “controversy” that Left manufacturers about the nasty, vile, racist, sexist, Rethuglicans and CONservatives. Tony Snow’s “tar baby”, NYPost “chimp”, Palin rallies “kill him” line. At each turn the Left trots out the “we are OFFENDED” and the rest of us start in a round of self-flagellation “OMG! We’re so sorry! We must speak better, we must not give offense!”
Come on, Pat. Do you not tell abuse victims the way to stop the cycle is to GET OUT?
Darleen on March 8, 2009 at 11:53 AM
No it doesnt but you didnt name a liberal.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 11:53 AM
Not yet. :)
Once the fairness doctrine spreads to teh interweb, you’d better have some contact info for the opposition.
I also imagine it will be illegal to require registration on any blog.
reaganaut on March 8, 2009 at 11:54 AM
Or as Levin said “What do moderates stand for”?
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 11:54 AM
I agree that bickering over Rush was the opposition’s intent, but that doesn’t mean that what Patterico is saying isn’t useful. This has gone well beyond bickering about Rush and moved into attempting to define what it is we’re looking for in our spokesmen. Rational argument and discussion can only make our politics stronger.
blankminde on March 8, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Patterico, here’s the issue right here… Liberalism is the problem and that is what Rush calls deranged. You are bringing it back to a fantasy attack on an idividual.
I’m responding to what he said:
He used the word “people” and not policies.
If he meant policies, then he should have said policies.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM
This from the guy who think Obama is a “good man.” I see what you did there, and you’re not terribly clever.
So once more, Obama = good man deserving of the benefit of the doubt, Limbaugh = counterproductive, incendiary, etc? Did I get that right?
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 8, 2009 at 11:56 AM
I think Rush worded his speech exactly the way he wanted to. Rush is very smart and knew this would happen. It does kind of weed out the people that have been posing as a conservative now doesn’t it……It’s funny which poser picks which words out of the speech tells us alot about that person. These people are so upset at him now for what? Offending the DB that wants to punish the country for being great. These people are evil, who cares how Rush said it, it is the truth! Something we just aren’t hearing at all lately. Jeez people snap out of it, focus! Don’t get caught up in their game!
jeaneeinabottle on March 8, 2009 at 11:57 AM
To paraphrase Will Rogers:
A Moderate is just another way of saying a fellow is just too lazy to form an opinion.
thomasaur on March 8, 2009 at 11:58 AM
Except to those conservatives they don’t like, like Rush, et al.
Sure they’ll give face time to the “Obama is wonderful, hooray for socialism” hacks like Frum, but the ones who disagree will be branded racist or whatever suits.
I see no attempt on the left to stop mischaracterizing conservatives and to not accuse them of bigotry, stupidity and whatever in order to smear their views. Liberals attack very personally, just like Frum did. Why we have to be pure as the driven snow when they malign and lie is quite mysterious to me. Limbaugh ridicules the left with comments like “deranged” and they need ridicule, IMO. Also we conservatives must stop eviscerating each other and focus on the dems! It’s what the libs do, quite successfully.
So long live Rush and when I disagree with him I will do it quietly. When I disagree with Obama I will call him a Kenyan Ken doll (caribou Barbie, anyone)and pronounce him evil (CHeney) and stupid (Bush).
Conservatives: go after the donks, please.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 11:59 AM
I’m praying members of the cabinet find their patriotism and declare Obama unfit and then devolve his powers to Biden.
VinceP1974 on March 8, 2009 at 11:59 AM
To paraphrase Will Rogers:
A Moderate is just another way of saying a fellow is just too lazy to form an opinion.
thomasaur on March 8, 2009 at 11:58 AM
I think Will had a quote for everything. :-) Sooner or later they are going to have to take a side. Probably sooner than later.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 12:00 PM
Dead right.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 12:01 PM
Negotiation with the regime in Iran is truly a deranged idea.
VinceP1974 on March 8, 2009 at 12:03 PM
I too would prefer Biden. Obama’s connection to the country and its history seem thready at best. I may not like Biden, but I trust hims to defend the country and our allies, not to appoint the likes of “it’s our fault” Freeman and cozy up to Iran. I also don’t believe Biden would take such a cavalier approach to the market and the nation’s investments.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 12:04 PM
AP
Yes, nice dodge, because unless you are claiming you have absolutely no idea of the timeline of Pat’s post and the impetus behind his poll, then you are dodging the other aspect of this whole “controversy”.
Then again, if you are invested in the view that nasty, vile, potty-mouthed Rethuglicans (or conservatives, because some how you think they are the same) should really watch what they say least they offend because the most important person in a conversation is the listener not the speaker, then I can see where presenting a posting challenging that view could be awkward.
Darleen on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Why? If you don’t like what they’re saying, you go elsewhere.
MadisonConservative on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Amen. What is it with these pseudo conservatives that treat the other side nicer than their own?
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Sorry, but this is moral relativism run amock.
Yes, of course I want Obama to fail. Of course, there are leftists that I believe are “deranged”. Mugabe, Chavez, Obama to name just three.
Norwegian on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Actually, Pat, it’s one sentence in a much larger essay / one statement made during a three hour program. You complain it is Rush’s fault, not necessarily because he said it but that he did not say it in the clearest possible sense, yet you aid and abet our opponents by spending more time criticizing Rush than those actually framing and playing it at will and to our detriment.
I’m not a Rush listener. He’s not my cup of tea, though I do admire his efforts and he does a good job. But when he’s under the fire of our opponents, which he is constantly, I’m still going to come to his aid and defend him, and particularly so, when he isn’t wrong but his return fire didn’t measure up to my or anyone else’s sharpshooter standards.
Quit allowing our opponents’ partisan media to frame the debate so well that they leave us arguing amongst ourselves on issues we have little disagreement on.
Dusty on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/03/06/jeri-thompson-roasts-the-rush-deranged/
Pretty much says it all.
DannoJyd on March 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Ok I’ll concede that one. But what is the point in all of this? Is it designed to fix Rush and his use of words? To make him more aware of his responsibility?
I don’t get all of this? The attacks on what I see as minutia is overblown.
I too was a liberal and it was the ideas that won me over more than a particularly unflattering message that kept me away.
katy on March 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Negotiation with the regime in Iran is truly a deranged idea.
No argument here. The distinction is between calling policies deranged, and liberals as people deranged. Limbaugh did the latter. You can shift it to a attack on policy all you like, but that’s not what he said.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
I always voted Republican. Rino’s need to go. They have drove that wedge with the real Conservatives. We need to get them out. Yes, both parties have been highjacked.
sheebe on March 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
So Rush can’t call dems deranged, but dems can call conservatives evil, greedy, bitter-clinger bigots?
Try focusing on the dems’ plethora of faults and lay off your allies, GOP!
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Some people are, in fact, deranged. Michelle does a great job of identifying them and shaming them.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Keep praying Vince.. do they have electric shock treatments there? If not puleeez request them, k.
jeaneeinabottle on March 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
My husband is a liberal who supported Obama and is pretty happy with him so far. He isn’t deranged.
On the other hand, if you have paid any attention to Rush Limbaugh in his 20 years on the air, this comment is par for the course for him, so why are you so bent out of shape about it now?
rockmom on March 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Maybe they’ve been listening to Bill Press.
MadisonConservative on March 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
No argument here. The distinction is between calling policies deranged, and liberals as people deranged. Limbaugh did the latter. You can shift it to a attack on policy all you like, but that’s not what he said.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 12:06 PM
These are the people that voted for obama so yes they are deranged. Everything we said about what obama would do is coming true and in spades.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
So Rush can’t call dems deranged, but dems can call conservatives evil, greedy, bitter-clinger bigots?
Where did I say that? I rail against the Democrats’ unfair rhetoric all the time. Much more often than I criticize conservatives.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 12:10 PM
I will care about Rush calling libs deranged when the donks get all up at arms about Reid, Olbermann etc calling Bush a liar and stupid. There is no outcry against the mouthy dems in the media, the Garafalos who call GOPers “assholes”, is there? But instead of focusing on that we should be chastising Rush?
That strategy IS deranged!
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 12:10 PM
I’m not so sure it’s so much “posing” as it is A. Wanting to be liked, lauded, palatable to the very powerful lib media ala cocktail circuit, talking-head roundtable or B. a timeworn power struggle among beta/alpha males for party message stewardship.
RepubChica on March 8, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Yep. 2010 will be the litmus test. Because if we dont get a majority, obama “he’s a good guy” will do so much damage, we may not recover.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Oh god. Please tell me Patterico isn’t going to become a regular poster here.
KSgop on March 8, 2009 at 12:12 PM
It’s not about you it’s about the conservative need to self-flagellate in the name of fairness and honesty. I do not see this on the left. Ever.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 12:12 PM
On the other hand, if you have paid any attention to Rush Limbaugh in his 20 years on the air, this comment is par for the course for him, so why are you so bent out of shape about it now?
Because it’s being talked about across America, and like it or not, swing voters are forming impressions about conservatives based on Limbaugh’s comments. Some say Limbaugh speaks only for himself. Great; that’s the way I want it.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM
Rush speaks for me sometimes. Other times he does not. Be careful if you find yourself agreeing with Rush all the time, because it is just possible that you have in that case joined his “cult”, at least in your own mind (since Rush seeks an awakening for his audience, not cult leadership.)
Be a ditto-head (I am), but never park your brain, whether persuaded by Rush or BHO.
Rush’s comment, “I hope he fails.”, exists in the context of his great love and respect for this country and ITS (not his) accomplishments, the founders, and our founding documents, juxtaposed against a president who closets the thought that our country is “mean” and in need of fundamental changes that would provide redress to classes who (in his opinion) do not get to adequately participate in the wonder and magic of USA capitalism.
Barak Obama is either ignorant of history, or draws incorrect conclusions about it (The New Deal succeeded. The Cold War ended because of European determination to resist.) He wants to change this country in ways that are fundamentally un-American, even anti-American.
In his hopes to change the country that I love (his placement of crimps upon an economic system that has created such fantastic wealth, his apparent inability to tell the difference between our foreign friends and enemies), I want him to fail.
Because if he doesn’t, we are screwed, top to bottom, left with much less wealth to spend and share as we see fit, at greater risk to threats foreign and domestic. And somehow, in BHO’s thinking, the world will be a better and safer place when the USA is both economically poorer and militarily weakened.
I want him to fail too.
exdeadhead on March 8, 2009 at 12:13 PM
No, I’m not “invested” in that idea, but the tone of your comment implying that Pat and I are somehow cowardly (afraid to offend) sums up why I find this debate irritating. Patterico’s making a simple descriptive point: This is a soundbite culture, and once Rush said “I hope he fails,” he had to know that many people would hear only that soundbite. Your point is that the soundbite doesn’t accurately capture Rush’s intent and that conservatives should press the media to clarify that intent whenever possible. That’s fine, but the fact is, many people who heard the original soundbite simply won’t be paying attention long enough to hear the clarification. Jay Cost wrote a smart post the other day about how little influence even someone like Rush has among an electorate as vast as America’s, where many voters ignore politics. They’ll catch the soundbite because the media will shove it down their throats, but many of them won’t catch the clarification. All Patterico’s saying is that it was idiotic of Rush to toss that soundbite out there in that environment. You can rail about intentionalism all you want but you’ll never get that “I hope he fails” genie all the way back in the bottle. But of course Pat and I are pussies for caring about something like that, no matter how it colors people’s impressions of the GOP.
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Good I hope they do. If they listen to Rush and see what the deranged left is doing to this country and still side with “the good guy” obama, they really werent “swing voters” anyway.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 1:15 PM
If columnists are truly conservative they should not join the furor against Rush, they should take the fight back to the man whose policies are destructive:Obama.
Rush makes no policies, signs no bills.
Focus on Obama not chomp at every distraction while Obama destroys the economy, socializes health care and dismantles our forein policies.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM
If someone wants the US to neg. with Iran they are deranged.
The definition of Deranged is insane.
The definition of insane is utterly senseless.
VinceP1974 on March 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM
I must say, I do appreciate both Patterico & AP joining in the conversation. Good things come from conversation, even if the conversation is really an argument and gets heated. These issues need to be discussed rather than shelved.
Many of us are fed up with the current state of our party. We all need to be heard; clear the plate, vent… The opposition has pounced on this like vultures with fresh kill in their sights. Let the discussions continue…
Keemo on March 8, 2009 at 1:18 PM
I have’t listened to Rush since the 90′s…he’s opposite Dennis Prager who I do listen to. I’ve listened to Prager for years and a more precise, thoughtful, non-bomb-throwing conservative you’d be hard pressed to find.
HOWEVER, the Left hates him … for his religiousity and how it informs his values and views. Prager’s preciseness in word and writing did not protect him from the Left (several large left blogs) from deliberately misinterpreting him and labeling him “in support of marital rape.”
For the Left, it does not matter if conservatives are polite and precise – when their dogma is challenged they will take us out any way they can.
Why Patterico and AP wish to keep participating in that game cycle is puzzling.
Darleen on March 8, 2009 at 1:19 PM
This hits the nail on the head! Why nitpik Rush while the thieves are busy stealing our retirement.
Keemo on March 8, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Frum and his ilk get much more attention attacking Rush than attacking Obama, just as they briefly got attention by jumping on the destroy Palin and the GOP ticket bandwagon.
Opportunists with no principles.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 1:20 PM
NIMN!
SouthernGent on March 8, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Yes it is, this is absolutely a response to this and this post from Jeff Goldstein at PW. I agree that you have no obligation to give Goldstein the keys to the place to issue a response. That said, Patterico ought to admit that he’s really arguing against Goldstein here in his post, he just isn’t acknowledging it. I highly recommend everyone read Jeff’s two posts linked above to see what this post is really all about.
doubleplusundead on March 8, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Or, maybe we could convence GOD to put all of Pat’s post in your email box—moron. If you don’t care to read Patterico’s opinions, get into a thrilling conversation with getalife or go water the lawn.
Rovin on March 8, 2009 at 1:23 PM
How much longer can the analysis of his comment go on? We live in a soundbite culture but as we have seen the shelf-life and impact of statements aren’t as powerful as one would think. IMO, the shot heard round the world was “spreading the wealth around”, not to be outdone by “for the first time I am proud of my country”. The latter was scrutinized over an adverb and the former was clearly obliterated by the media bias in the form of damage control.
I appreciate the debate which leads to a bigger issue within the party but the elections in 2010 and 2012 will probably hinge on more concrete matters such as gas prices, unemployment rates, how many people actually got to stay in their homes, the impact of the Acorn army and (the obligatory God Forbid) whether or not we were attacked by enemies.
sherry on March 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Jeff I used the wrong term actually. What I meant to convey is we are arguing among ourselves over the manufactured socialist talking points. We are letting them control the agenda. While they control the agenda, they control everything.
Wine_N_Dine on March 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM
He and Jeff have had a running debate about this for the past week but this is a standalone post. And no, it’s not true that he’s arguing against Jeff here; he’s arguing against a whole lot of people, in his comments and HA’s, who have been ripping on him. Your view/Jeff’s view is the majority view. He’s taking issue with that.
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Re: the soundbite culture: if Rush had clearly made the point that he never wants to see Americans out of work, and he never wants to see this country’s economy sputter even for a second, then I wouldn’t be on his case for tossing out the easily distorted soundbite. I’d be out there calling the media on the distortion.
Problem is, even when you look at his clarification, it wasn’t that clear — as my poll showed.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 1:25 PM
He already was posting regularly not that long ago.
So quit whining, all of you.
MadisonConservative on March 8, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Many of my personal friends (HA readers also) have the same feelings. Deserving of a reply…
Keemo on March 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM
I don’t think you’re going to be able to get people to respond to the conservative message by making killing our children’s future some sort of mantra.
However true, it’s not an argument that I think resonates.
Hopping from blog to blog, the ghastly disarray among Republicans and/or Conservatives is so demoralizing.
I have a friend who has gone Galt on the net because of the din.
Eirenic Rebel on March 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Where is the benefit to all the very public in-fighting?
Except to the dems of course. I’m certain plenty of Dems hated the Biden choice, but they didn’t run to the newspapers declare Biden incompetant and use a “I’ll vote for the other guy now and so there!” approach. They stuck together, argued in private and WON.
Seems like a simple, easy to follow strategy.
clnurnberg on March 8, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Yeah, you’ll never get that genie back in the bottle now, half of you ceded the left their false premise. It might be tactically wise to do that even, but it’s dumb as hell strategically, because you can’t build a sound conservative argument on a bunch of false leftist/Marxist premises, you’re building on sand, to borrow from a parable.
doubleplusundead on March 8, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Pussies? No. But overly critical of our own side? Focusing on the negative? Splitting hairs to absurdity? Yeah.
So someone on the left or the media will try to take it out of context. I get your point.. seriously. I got it.
The error in your thinking is that anything could have been said by Rush that they could not or would not take out of context regardless.
We love you anyway.
TCJ
TCJ on March 8, 2009 at 1:29 PM
Leave Rush alone, he is a good guy for Christ’s sake. :-)
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Some of us grew done with political correctness a long time ago and aren’t going to pre-qualify every single thing we say for fear of being misquoted or taken out of context. People who spend way too much time on what others are going to think of them so much that they are no longer true to themselves.
Rush is owning what he said. Many people nowadays don’t.
I highly respect him for that.
He didn’t put this label on himself they did. He’s just running with it and screwing with them.
Throwing Rush under the bus is a deal breaker for me.
I hope everyone likes you, Patterico! Good luck with that.
SondraK on March 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM
No one ceded anyone anything. Imagine someone who’s just home from work, flipping around on the TV, who stumbles on the evening news just in time to hear Rush’s “I hope he fails” soundbite. “Wow,” he thinks, and keeps flipping until he settles on SportsCenter. There are a lot of people out there, I think. They’re too tired after work to dwell on politics or maybe they’re just not interested. You can howl from the rooftops about media distortion afterwards — and you should, since *some* of those people will stumble on those howls in the same way and revise their opinions of what Rush said — but you’ll never completely undo the mistaken impression. Which is why Rush shouldn’t have made it possible in the first place. That’s all Pat is saying.
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Here’s why you are not going to make any headway with me. That comment is just like something one of my kids might say because they are not mature enough to have the confidence to be who they are and allow others the same freedom. When a potential date was coming over my daughter would go into a tizzy because her dad was cleaning the gun or the decor of our nearly million dollar dwelling wasn’t as trendy as some house down the street. But here’s the thing. It’s clean. It’s a home. It’s who and what we are and what that is, is hard working, tax paying, people with long thought through opinions about things, and that’s just how it is. Take it or leave it. You don’t want you BF to see your family warts and all then you’ll be spending a lot of nights somewhere else.
.
You are embarassed because strangers are suddenly listening to Rush and you think he reflects badly on “your” party? Are you kidding me? So twenty million listeners are trash you need to hide so the elite will come away with a good impression of our new fake facade? Screw that. I don’t agree with everything Rush says and I’d never even heard his show until last month, but he’s a genuine individual who talks from the heart and believes what he believes and if he embarasses you then get over it and grow up.
.
People who worry about appearances when a country is burning to the ground really piss me off.
BrideOfRove on March 8, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Who’s got the better point?
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 8, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Patterico and AP
If you don’t like speech codes on campus, why do you want ‘em for the GOP or conservatives?
Darleen on March 8, 2009 at 1:36 PM
This is the point I’ve been making for two days my friend. There’s nothing wrong with raising awareness and conversation to any issue if it allows more conservatives to GET ENGAGED! Far too many are sitting on the sidelines, (and maybe if they feel they’ve been insulted by folks like Rush, they might just speak up or heaven forbid, get involved.) Patterico’s point has merit that Rush,(by his choice of words) may alienate some of the swing-voters, but I have my doubts their memories will last that long. I could be wrong.
Rovin on March 8, 2009 at 1:36 PM
The more the economy sinks and people feel the pain, hear the B/S from the WH and watch their life saving disappear…
I think this scenario will be the page turner in 2010!!
Give it time and Rush’s word will be just what the country needed!
katy on March 8, 2009 at 1:36 PM
+1000
rockmom on March 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM
And with that non sequitur, I concede it’s utterly useless trying to debate this any longer and humbly bow out.
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM
In this simple sentence you demonstrate yourself a coward and illustrate why you will never have the appeal Rush does.
Your weakness is showed again in your poll questions. Socialism is “likely to fail”? Obama’s policies aren’t new. They are nothing we have to give a chance to see how they work out. They have been tried many times over the course of history and NOT ONCE have they been successful. You and AP both act like you’re terrified that his plan will work and the GOP will be SOL.
You are wasting your breath trying to clarify on what grounds you agree with him or why it was a bad thing to say. You’d be better off pointing out how Obama is failing now, examples abound, and trying to shape Republican policies that are solidly conservative and have been proven to be successful both politically and fiscally. Squabbling over the words Rush chooses to use is just pointless.
bj1126 on March 8, 2009 at 1:38 PM
Allahpundit on March 8, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Actually, I’m saying a little more: that Rush made it very difficult to attack the media distortion because it wasn’t clear to what extent it was a distortion.
I know this because I lived it.
I read an LAT piece by James Rainey invoking the “I hope he fails” phrase a while back, and I sprang into action looking to find Rush’s actual language and throw it back in Rainey’s face. “Rush isn’t trying to say the economy goes bad, Rainey! In fact, he said so!” Then I went and found Rush’s actual statement, and it wasn’t clear.
I knew Rush ultimately wanted the best for the country — but it wasn’t clear precisely how, and whether he would be OK with a brief economic downturn to demonstrate the failure of Obama’s policies.
I couldn’t defend him because he wasn’t clear about what he meant.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Incorrect. They are not tired. They are too lazy to research further even though they know they are being manipulated and lied to by the media and THEY SHOULD NEVER EVER BOTHER VOTING. I don’t care what someone like that thinks because their brain is not engaged. What we need are not more lazy-assed semi-Republicans who vote with the wind out of Jon Stewarts ass. We need to find the people who are looking for information, who WANT to be better informed and who understand that the conservative principles are important in a million little ways. This is not American Idol. American Idol got us Obama.
BrideOfRove on March 8, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Patterico,
You or anybody else did not answer my question
Again, name one liberal that purports to have a sane and responsible policy.
I suppose a policy of enacting $1.75 trillion dollars worth of spending (over budget, that is) is a sane one? Or perhaps more along the line of a deranged attempt to “fix” the economy by spending 13 times as much as Bush did in his first year in office? And Obama isn’t done spending, either, for this year.
Answer the question, Patterico. I gave mine. Choose a different answer.
Kokonut on March 8, 2009 at 1:40 PM
I didn’t say it was a Patterico vs Goldstein thing. I know he has posting privileges and had them for some time; I’ve been an HA reader for a long time. The question still stands, however, and it has nothing to do with Patterico. It does have to do with seeing some T-bone served aside the frequent Frum, Noonan, Parker, Buckley second cuts.
Dusty on March 8, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Well I guess we’d best never ever say anything that could ever possibly be misinterpreted! That sounds like a reasonable goal!
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM
You’ll never be able to offer an argument, you’ll be too busy hunkered down and trying to analyze the hell out of every little thing you say out of fear that the left and media will distort you. You can’t live that way without going insane, and we’ll lose if we try.
doubleplusundead on March 8, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Well I guess we’d best never ever say anything that could ever possibly be misinterpreted! That sounds like a reasonable goal!
Fighting. The Wrong. Battle.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 8, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Kokonut,
He isnt interested in answering questions.
Elric66 on March 8, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Oh, Christ. You’re talking about state-imposed punishments for the use of language. Allah and Pat are simply urging conservative media sources to consider their words a little more carefully, because the media will abuse soundbites at a moment’s notice.
MadisonConservative on March 8, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Thanks for those links.
We really are in heap, big trouble.
I really don’t understand this. An uninvolved part of the electorate, one that doesn’t pay attention to politics, retains the soundbite all the same and then draws that forth when they think about the GOP?
Do you see where we are? For goodness sake, the “I want him to fail” comment won’t lose salience because the topic has become a wank-fest And the only thing sure to follow is sleep.
The debacle that is the RNC has becomea self-fulfilling prophesy. Sheesh.
Eirenic Rebel on March 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Admittedly, I haven’t seen your poll nor do I have the opportunity to listen to Rush on a consistent basis. But what I do know is Rush does have a nice habit of saying he wants all Americans to live up to their potential, be successful, contribute to a growing economy and thrive in it (of course, I am paraphrasing). This is a stark contrast to the message we hear out of the White House these days. I would rather see that message get dissected and analyzed.
sherry on March 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM
What rational person would say that other than as a prayer. It isn’t possible in a booming economy. Why, in the context of Rush’s statement, would he do that? Its unreasonable to put that premise on your argument.
genso on March 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM
I’m afraid I have to bow out too. I have work to do. Enjoyed talking to everyone here; we don’t all agree but I like hearing your thoughts.
Patterico on March 8, 2009 at 1:44 PM
AP,
My point is this; I don’t believe we are engaged in a simple street fight here, I believe Obama, Pelsoi, and the gang of radicals that have the chains of power, are dead serious about their agenda and will use every means of power at their disposal to obtain their objective. This is a WAR to them. Political Correctness is not a weapon that will assist us with our attempts to defend liberty and freedom.
Rush Limbaugh canned political correctness a long time ago. Rush in my view is acting as our General at this time. Patterico is still stuck in PC mode. I have lost 1/2 of my retirement in the last (6) weeks. It took me 37 years of full time work to save that money. This is not a street fight to me, this is war.
Keemo on March 8, 2009 at 1:45 PM
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