DVD review: High: The True Tale of American Marijuana
posted at 10:55 am on March 3, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Should we legalize marijuana? Could there be a positive economic impact from doing so, as some in California’s legislature suggest? Has marijuana prohibition worked, and have the gains made validated the costs involved? These are some of the questions posed in the documentary High: The True Tale of American Marijuana, directed by John Holowach, who will join me on The Ed Morrissey Show today to discuss it.
The film includes this interview of Harvard economist Jeffrey Miron discussing the economic benefits of ending the overall drug war:
High does not disguise its pro-legalization agenda. Holowach makes an argument explicitly for legalization, and not just marijuana. While the film focuses on cannabis, it often drifts towards a complete end to all drug prohibitions. To some extent, that weakens the argument for marijuana, as part of the documentary argues that the weed provides no more harm than alcohol or tobacco — an argument that clearly won’t apply to cocaine, heroin, PCP, crystal meth, and most of the other prohibited substances.
It also occasionally argues dishonestly, as it does on comparative marijuana strength over the last 20 years. Anti-cannabis advocates say that dosage strength has doubled in that time, thanks to intensive breeding of the plant. High notes that THC levels increased on average from 2.8% to 4.7% from 1985 to 2001 (the last year for that data), but then says that it’s only increased “two percent”. It’s not quite doubled, but comparatively, the strength has increased 68%. It’s a transparently deliberate misreading of the opponent’s argument.
With all of that said, Holowach’s film proves enlightening, both anecdotally and statistically — or should I say, the lack of statistics. The government blocks research into medical uses of marijuana, which means we can’t tell what that 68% increase in THC means, if it means anything at all. Do people use less to get the same high? Do people use the same and get more high? Can smoke-based THC be used more effectively than its synthetic liquid form to provide pain and nausea relief, as many of the users of both claim? We won’t know until studies are done, but at least in the US, that won’t happen while we continue to treat marijuana the same as cocaine and heroin — and we use heroin’s cousins, morphine and other opiates, as actual therapeutic treatments.
High is most effective when it focuses on the costs of fighting cannabis, which grows naturally in the US, both in terms of economics and in more personal terms of lost jobs, prosecutions, and civil liberties. Conservatives may find those arguments more compelling than others made in this film, but Holowach gives viewers the entire spectrum of arguments from which to choose. For someone who has never smoked marijuana in his life — I really am that square — High provides a broader perspective on the issue of marijuana prohibition. Even if you oppose it, the film is worth watching, as it is entertaining, informative, and provocative.
Blowback
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That was well said. I agree entirely.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM
I love this argument about reducing crime, because legalizing drugs would make them no longer illegal. This is what happens when morality is stripped for society.
Morality (e.g., religious rules for life) have their consequences in the hereafter. Laws were invented to give real consequences here on earth, and simply reflect the common morality of the society…in our case, Judeo-Christian morality. This is how our country was founded.
However, when a society strips the foundational morality from existence, the only inhibitor of bad behavior with real consequences is the law. And, having no anchor, laws can be re-written on a whim, especially in a true democracy, where the majority rules absolutely.
Well, guess what, folks? We have a true democracy now, where the left rules unchallenged and unstoppable…they have majorities in both houses of congress and in the presidency. These people don’t give a whit about their constituency, morality or anything beyond their own power.
So we’d better get used to it, and gird our loins!
stonemeister on March 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Let the potheads sit at home watching TV and use prison cells to increase the terms of violent felons. Deny parole more frequently to reduce the number of repeat offenders.
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:05 PM
I’m not sure if the figure is correct but I seem to remember that 85% of cigarette smokers also smoke pot. Also pot is mostly identified with “pot head” kids. It’s like anything else. It can be used or abused. I don’t seek out pot to smoke anymore but I have smoked with all manner of professionals. The last people you would think of when you think of pot heads. I’ve smoked with fighter pilots (the highest rank was a “full bird” colonel), air traffic controllers, police, federal agents, several doctors including a neurosurgeon and a cardiologist and the list kind of decends from there. The point is you have no idea who actually smokes pot and people can abuse or use responsibly just about anything.
Legalize it, set some kind of quality standard and tax it. Might as well because it’s been used in this country for hundreds of years. It’s not going to go away.
Guardian on March 3, 2009 at 12:07 PM
But doesn’t smoking pot release even more evil CO2 into the atmosphere? If it is legal, use will go up and even more CO2 will be released. Once a carbon tax is placed on smoking it, its use will rise to take away the pain of paying the ever increasing carbon tax.
The world will uncontrollably warmed and we will be doomed!
or something like that….
SouthernRoots on March 3, 2009 at 12:08 PM
The argument to legalize Pot is legitimate, the argument that Pot is safe is pure propaganda. I know so many pot heads (I am friends with none) and they ALL exhibit the same mental deficiency, the same paranoia and deny both exists. Weak minded, intellectually lacking people will always do drugs. They are genetically inferior and thus prone to stupidity.
The Anti Marijuana Resource
The Scientific Evidence is Overwhelming:
Addiction:
Animals Exposed To Marijuana’s Active Component Will Self-Administer The Drug (NIH-National Institute On Drug Abuse)
Marijuana Withdrawal As Bad As Withdrawal From Cigarettes (Drug and Alcohol Dependence Journal)
Marijuana Withdrawal Reported By Teens Seeking Treatment (Drug and Alcohol Dependence Journal)
Smoking, Drinking, Drugs: The Younger They Start, The Harder It Is To Quit (Health Education & Behavior Journal)
Gateway Drug:
Early cannabis abuse ‘leads to heroin addiction’ (Neuropsychopharmacology Journal)
Early marijuana use increases risk of drug and alcohol problems later in life (Washington University School of Medicine)
Illicit Drug Use Starts With Cannabis (University of Otago, New Zealand)
Marijuana use linked to hallucinogen use (Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health)
Negative Health Effects:
Brain Damage – Cannabis Could Increase Risks Of Psychotic Illness By 40 Percent (The Lancet Medical Journal)
Brain Damage – Cannabis Increases Risk Of Psychosis (British Medical Journal)
Brain Damage – Cannabis increases risk of depression and schizophrenia (British Medical Journal)
Brain Damage – Cannabis Triggers Transient Schizophrenia-like Symptoms (Neuropsychopharmacology Journal)
Brain Damage – Cannabis use ‘dulls the brain’ (Journal of the American Medical Association)
Brain Damage – Concerns over mental health risk of smoking cannabis (British Journal of Psychiatry)
Brain Damage – Early Cannabis Use Increases Risk of Schizophrenia (University of Otago, New Zealand)
Brain Damage – Frequent Marijuana Use May Affect Brain Function (NeuroReport Journal)
Brain Damage – Heavy Cannabis Use May Lead to Psychotic Symptoms (University of Otago, New Zealand)
Brain Damage – Heavy Marijuana use has a detrimental impact on intelligence (Canadian Medical Association Journal)
Brain Damage – Heavy Marijuana Use May Damage Developing Brain In Teens, Young Adults (Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia)
Brain Damage – How Smoking Marijuana Damages The Fetal Brain (Science Journal)
Brain Damage – Long-term Cannabis Users May Have Structural Brain Abnormalities (Archives of General Psychiatry Journal)
Brain Damage – Marijuana And Alcohol Taken Together Induced Widespread Nerve Cell Death In Brains Of Young Rats (Annals of Neurology Journal)
Brain Damage – Marijuana Damages Brain (King’s College, UK)
Brain Damage – Marijuana Is Linked to Brain Damage (The Lancet Medical Journal)
Brain Damage – Marijuana Use Affects Blood Flow In Brain Even After Abstinence (Neurology Journal)
Brain Damage – Marijuana use in pregnancy damages kids’ learning (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences)
Brain Damage – Marijuana Use Takes Toll On Adolescent Brain Function (American Academy of Pediatrics)
Brain Damage – Memory, speed of thinking get worse over time with marijuana use (American Academy of Neurology)
Brain Damage – More Evidence Of Cannabis-induced Psychosis (BMC Psychiatry Journal)
Brain Damage – Scans reveal brain damage from cannabis is like schizophrenia (Albert Einstein College of Medicine)
Brain Damage – Schizophrenia Linked To Dysfunction In Molecular Brain Pathway Activated By Marijuana (Archives of General Psychiatry Journal)
Brain Damage – Skunk smokers 18 times more likely to be psychotic (Royal College of Psychiatrists)
Brain Damage – Smoking Marijuana Impairs Cognitive Function In MS Patients (Neurology Journal)
Brain Damage – Starting marijuana use during teens may result in cognitive impairment later in life (NIH/National Institute on Drug Abuse)
Brain Damage – Teen Drug Use Associated With Psychiatric Disorders Later In Life (NIH/National Institute On Drug Abuse)
Brain Damage – Teen Marijuana Use Worsens Depression, Leads To More Serious Mental Illness (Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Cancer – Marijuana ingredient promotes tumor growth, impairs anti-tumor defenses (NIH/National Institute on Drug Abuse)
Cancer – Marijuana Use Associated with HPV-Positive Head and Neck Cancer (Journal of the National Cancer Institute)
Cancer – Smoking Marijuana May Increase Risk Of Head And Neck Cancers (Cancer Epidemiology Biomarker and Prevention Journal)
Gum Disease – Heavy Marijuana Use Linked To Gum Disease (Journal of the American Medical Association)
Heart Disease – Adolescent binging on marijuana linked to stroke (Saint Louis University)
Heart Disease – Marijuana use can trigger heart attack (Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center)
Heart Disease – Marijuana Use May Pose Health Threat To Baby Boomers (American Heart Association Circulation Journal)
Heart Disease – Possible Connection Between Marijuana Abuse And Stroke Or Heart Attacks (Molecular Psychiatry Journal)
Heart Disease – Regular Cannabis May Increase Risk Of Stroke In Young Users (British Medical Journal)
Infertility – Abusing Marijuana May Overload System, Inhibit Fertility (American Society for Cell Biology)
Infertility – Marijuana-Like Compounds May Alter Human Fertility (American Society of Cell Biology)
Infertility – Sperm From Marijuana Smokers Move Too Fast Too Early, Impairing Fertility (American Society of Reproductive Medicine)
Lung Disease – Impact On Lungs Of One Cannabis Joint Equal To Up To Five Cigarettes (British Medical Journal)
Lung Disease – Long-term Marijuana Smoking Leads To Respiratory Complaints (Archives of Internal Medicine Journal)
Lung Disease – Marijuana associated with same respiratory symptoms as tobacco (Yale School of Medicine)
Lung Disease – Marijuana Smoke Contains Higher Levels Of Certain Toxins Than Tobacco Smoke (ACS Chemical Research In Toxicology Journal)
Lung Disease – Marijuana Smokers Face Rapid Lung Destruction — As Much As 20 Years Ahead Of Tobacco Smokers (Respirology Journal)
Lung Disease – Marijuana Worsens COPD Symptoms In Current Cigarette Smokers (American Thoracic Society)
Lung Disease – Research Confirms Adverse Effects of Cannabis on Respiratory Health (University of Otago, New Zealand)
Obesity – Machinery Of The ‘Marijuana Munchies’ (Neuron Journal)
Pregnancy Complication – Marijuana Use Causes Early Pregnancy Failure (Journal of Clinical Investigation)
Pregnancy Complication – Marijuana use could cause tubal pregnancies (Vanderbilt University Medical Center)
Viral Infection – Marijuana Component Opens The Door For Virus That Causes Kaposi’s Sarcoma (Cancer Research Journal)
Viral Infection – Regular Marijuana Use Increases Risk Of Hepatitis C-related Liver Damage (AGA Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology Journal)
Myths:
Pain Relief – Oral Cannabis Ineffective In Treating Acute Pain (Journal of the American Society of Anesthesiologists)
Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Wrong Again! Cannabis is not legal in Amsterdam. The black market drives the availability of cannabis although personal consumption and possession of up to 5 grams is legal. I’m glad you stated what you did b/c it further proves that decriminalizion is not the answer… Legalization is!!! BTW guarenteed there’s people that work well for you that smoke cannabis. You’ll never know!!!
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:09 PM
Lincoln, I think you are a mark just to get me riled up. I think the board wants to see another spanking as you obviously are unfamiliar with my body of work. There is no need for condescension especially when your posts are flat wrong.
Morality comes from religion. . . laws are based partly on that. Nowhere in the Bible is marijuana considered a sin. There are ZERO verses in the Holy Bible of the Christians and Jews that say you should not smoke weed.
CONTRAST THAT with the many places in the Bible (where morality is defined for Christians) that claim you should not engage in games of chance for financial gain. . . and so a LOTTERY IS MUCH MORE IMMORAL THAN POT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
The point is that YOU don’t understand what ‘morality’ means and where it comes from if you think that smoking marijuana is more immoral than gambling. It wasn’t a personal question to you. I don’t care when you bought a lottery ticket. The Bible claims lotteries to be immoral. YOU claim pot is immoral.
Do I have to go to law school to determine which source is more authoritative on morality? you or the Bible
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Does the Bible address smoking weed? I’ve read passages relating to drunkenness and gluttony but not any related to using plants as drugs.
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Welcome to quotation infamy, Captain Eugenics.
TheUnrepentantGeek on March 3, 2009 at 12:13 PM
What? We’ve been told time and time again that keeping weed illegal is what makes it so attractive to people. so it’s obvious that making rape and murder illegal is why people keep doing it, legalize everything and you’ll have no crime.
clearbluesky on March 3, 2009 at 12:13 PM
It’s been estimated that at any given time in America there’s about 20-60 million regular pot users. The vast majority of those users will never be arrested, will never steal to support their habit, will live normal lives by most standards. These millions of Americans start smoking and then stop smoking all on their own, without the intervention of “morality” laws.
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:14 PM
“Cannabis is not legal in Amsterdam [12 words later] possession of up to 5 grams is legal.”
way to debate there, ace …
/eyeroll
Buckaroo on March 3, 2009 at 12:14 PM
I really should make the “preview” button my friend…
myrenovations on March 3, 2009 at 12:15 PM
Indeed you didn’t, this is your chance…
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:00 PM
I guess all the words were too much. I stated in response to a question about the common good of MJ, that laws were…….. wait for it……..rooted in morality (quoted to be specific), and that the belief (held by the populace) that MJ is bad. Now you can talk about how way back when it was legal, and I would respond with a witty and eloquent “So” and then follow up with “at one time beating your wife was legal, public intoxication, shooting Indian on sight, and slavery, and discrimination and a bunch of other things were all legal. That does not make it correct (moral) today”.
Here ends the lesson, I hope you were able to follow
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:16 PM
I think it is more the getting high part that people like.
Legalize murder and you’ll have fewer laws broken, as well as more dead victims.
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:16 PM
Okay I’ll give you that but allow me to correct my statement. Cannabis is not “legal” in Amsterdam but rather tolerated.. The Dutch do not see a problem with adults possesing and consuming marijuana. The said marijuana is provided to the coffeeshops via the black market. So there… ace.. your kung fu is weak.
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Three pot smoking casters blew up a casting station at our plant and fried people in addition to destroying property. They were not focused on what they were doing. I can get a pretty good idea when guys are under the influence of alcohol but when their short term memory is shot because of weed, it is really hard to know.
There is lots of alcohol abuse because it is legal. If we legalize pot, how can people say there will not be a major increase in abuse?
KW64 on March 3, 2009 at 12:20 PM
Vague much?
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM
Yeah…
How’d that work out for the families of these folks?
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM
I’ve already had a few beers and it’s not even 9:30 PST ;)
DarkCurrent on March 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM
You mean all those legalization advocates who for years have told everyone that keeping weed illegal was what made people want to try it were lying? Hmm, makes you wonder what else they’re lying about.
clearbluesky on March 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Refined THC is a white powder. It is stored in fat cells and is metabolized through the kidneys which is why people are “piss tested” for it’s use. It doesn’t “build up” in the brain. Also, according to some doctor friends of mine, it is impossible to O.D. on pot. The lethal dose of THC would require the equivalent of smoking 4 pounds of weed in one sitting.
Guardian on March 3, 2009 at 12:24 PM
“clearbluesky on March 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM”
HEH
Buckaroo on March 3, 2009 at 12:24 PM
All that fancy talk and you still didn’t say exactly how marijuana and the consumption thereof is immoral.
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:26 PM
It’s intolerant nazis like this guy is why people smoke pot.
John the Libertarian on March 3, 2009 at 12:26 PM
As a former criminal (that is I smoked pot when I was in college over 20 years ago) I have to say that I don’t care if you want to do drugs. Why should anyone else care? It’s not smart to do drugs but I’m not in charge of deciding what is smart for other people. If I were I would be a Liberal. Is that what you are? A Liberal? If so then go the the HufPo site and let us Conservatives have our fun on our own blog.
Here is a great idea. Stay out of other people’s lives. Stop telling me what I can or can’t eat. What I can or can’t smoke. What I can or can’t drive. What I can or can’t drink.
GO AWAY!!!
watson007 on March 3, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Drug users can kill themselves off on their own and make society better. Evolution.
Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Don’t play dumb with me! You understand what I wrote. Our laws are based on our common morality, not carbon-copied from them. A skyscraper is not identical to its foundation, but one does support the other.
I’m sorry if you have difficulty with that concept.
stonemeister on March 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM
OK but what about the medical reports he cited to show that mMJ is not benign. You ignored that part of his post.
KW64 on March 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Try 1500lbs. in 15 minutes in order to od on thc. impossible, unless you attend college.
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Ok now you are going way out to left field. I agree that ultimately God is the penultimate arbiter of morality, but as we have free will he did give us some room to make up our own minds about how to live (unless you believe in preordination or predestination). The Bible gives us great examples of how to live and how to behave but does not (nor should it be) able to cover every single thing that could possibly be encountered. Thusly we have to make some decisions for ourselves, and in this case we decided that MJ is bad.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:29 PM
CSU-Humbolt
thomasaur on March 3, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Ya Know though…..
Maybe…. NAAAAHHH
well alright…
I’ll shoot for it.
If we legalize pot I predict, we will win elections.
Ya know that “Youth” vote that the left is always worried about? They wouldn’t care about getting up off the couch to vote, so with that and their constant pushing of abortion the polls will only be filled with conservatives, if we did.
we could let Darwin be right only on this one thing…
and let the Libs take themselves out of the gene pool on their own.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 12:30 PM
“KW64 on March 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM”
of course they will — with a VERY poor choice of those 8 or so words, poptech severely undercut his argument …
/shrug
Buckaroo on March 3, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Don’t know. It is usually a good idea to filter out the marketing on either side of a political issue and focus on the tangible.
If it is legal I’d bet usage goes up–often in place of another intoxicant. I’d also bet that it doesn’t cause inordinate harm to non-users.
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:30 PM
I’m no Nazi, funny how so-called “Libertarians” become PC police once their intellectually inferior behavior is challenged for what it is.
People smoke Pot because they don’t have the brain power not to. They have genetically inferior brains prone to self-abuse and stupidity.
Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM
Exactly, such as rape, genocide, bigotry, superstition, adultry and murder. I guess there wasn’t room for the authors to fit in an anti-marijuana clause.
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:32 PM
“Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM”
DUDE, as someone who would perhaps like to be on your side of this argument rationally, cut out the holier-than-thou genetic predisposition crap — please …
Buckaroo on March 3, 2009 at 12:32 PM
If you’re conceeding there’s no biblical basis for criminalizing marijuana and that there IS one for criminalizing the lottery then you also conceede that part of our “common morality” is based on nothing more than the democrastic process and pragmatism. Marijuana criminalization is not pragmatic. It leads to more suffering, more cost and more crime than otherwise, therefore, there’s a strong argument that “morally” legalization is the better option. This is what happens when you try and ascribe biblical standards, i.e. morality, to things not discussed in scripture.
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:34 PM
who is ‘we’ kemosabe?
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:35 PM
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM
Nope that is the ld of MJ not THC, and that was 1% MJ which is less than ditch weed
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:37 PM
That can be conceded and it still doesn’t formulate an argument for marijuana criminalization. Your tactic reduces to attempting to insult people and shame them into thinking marijuana should be illegal by making people who smoke pot look stupid. Being stupid isn’t a crime. From the standpoint of “activities that can cause brain damage” grown men launching themselves at each other and receiving multiple concussions while playing professional football is “stupid.” But damned if we don’t all grab a beer, sidle up to the T.V. and watch the multi billion dollar industry every winter (I miss football season).
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:37 PM
And these stupider people deserve jail, why?
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Well…
If ya wanna get technical. not to throw religion in this too hard but it of course was Judeo / Christian values that created most of our laws.
the abuse of pot causes Sloth, and last I remember that was one of the 7 deadly sins, no?
Now, what was that quote about “good men doing nothing”?
if you want to let your friends family and neighbors rot on pot then by all means justify it anyway you want.
I saw way too many of my friends who were talented artists waste their talents and lives on Pot. They could have been comic artists or illustrators. I was and still am envious of their talent, but they haven’t done anything with it, because they have no drive. still makes me sad.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 12:37 PM
It is the truth, Pot Heads are dumb as bricks. They have no will power, weak minds and cannot handle reality. There is no holier than though attitude, I’ve debate and conversed with them, it is the equivalent of debating with a retarded teenager.
Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Obambi will surely support this, keep em poor, keep em stoned, unarmed and unable to care for themselves… next stop re-education camps.
Viper1 on March 3, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Allow weed, but ban tobacco….Oh the irony.
Tim Burton on March 3, 2009 at 12:39 PM
Actually I don’t specifically follow. Is it a.)We infer Biblical authority because people in the past enacted anti-MJ laws based on their interpretation of the Bible? Or 2.)Simply that the laws were enacted by individuals who were of a Jewish or Christian background?
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:39 PM
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:21 PM
whiskeytango on March 3, 2009 at 12:26 PM
moral
–adjective 1.of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong;
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:39 PM
who is ‘we’ kemosabe?
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:35 PM
We the electorate. I know you believe with the rational of a 10 year old that just because you did not get your way your gonna do it anyway ant that will show them!
If you do not like the law there are ways to change it.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM
The seven deadly sins are not biblical, it’s a Catholic thing. Are you claiming that the founding of the country adhered to Catholic Dogma? I know some Protestant founding fathers who’d roll over in their graves at such a suggestion.
But just to go along with your argument: So does the abuse of alcohol, big macs and sitting on your ass, these things are not illegal. If the argument is going to be that Marijuana should be illegal because of Christian morals why are the pro-criminalization side so willy nilly about their application of Christian morality in the legal code. Religion is supposed to present us with some pretty clear bright lines and standards. Is the argument that “sloth” is only sinful if it’s caused by marijuana abuse, but not sinful if it’s caused by an abuse of internet porn?
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM
I can lead a horse to water, but can’t make him think.
You do understand that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, don’t you? Or do you hate religion too much to understand that simple concept?
stonemeister on March 3, 2009 at 12:42 PM
Still waiting for why “stupid” = “crime.”
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Appeal to authority
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:43 PM
You do understand that the founders of this nation did not make marijuana illegal don’t you? Clearly their interpretation of Judeo-Christian philosophy did not include marijuana prohibition.
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:44 PM
You can’t claim to be a freedom-loving citizen and yet be in favor of prohibiting drugs. There’s just no squaring that circle.
Baphomet on March 3, 2009 at 12:46 PM
By that tortured logic, no new laws should have been introduced? Electronic fraud laws have no validity? Exactly what are you saying, besides pointing out that laws have been enacted since the founding?
stonemeister on March 3, 2009 at 12:46 PM
When did we vote for this? Or is this your attempt at lending credibility to your weak arguments while at the same time attempting to discredit someone who is wiping the floor with you in this debate?
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Appeal to authority
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:43 PM
This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (July 2008)
If your going to use wikipedia on me at least make sure it has references and sources, or try to work harder to validate your arguments.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Remember that little production Jack Black and Doogie Howser put together about gay marriage which ended with the “conservatives” agreeing that legalized gay marriage was good for business? Well, this reeks of the same message for conservatives: “Hey, you guys are all about profits, right? Well look at the profits you can make selling pot!” Somehow, the left can’t get their heads around the fact that we won’t sell out our principles for a buck.
Kafir on March 3, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Still waiting for someone to read my original post.
Poptech on March 3, 2009 at 12:49 PM
so you are saying Luther the “original protestant” didn’t think that the seven deadly sins were important? hmmmmmm. interesting take on that from you.
why do you guys only read half my posts? I am not for criminalizing any other behaviors. that is a straw man argument on your part. I am for RETAINING the current laws on Pot because it prevents MORE abuse than currently occurs. did I say completely? NO! but it helps.
-Wasteland Man.
P.S. Although I have to agree with medical use in VERY SEVERE CASES! But Not to treat stuff like stress.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 12:49 PM
AND I might add, you are getting beaten by a stoner who is stoned out of his mind right now.
Who wants some of this?!
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Laws are based in morality, says a ruler from 2,000 years ago, and pot is illegal…so pot is immoral.
That’s not a trump card, but rather a cute little house of cards…
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:52 PM
I’ll catch up with ya in an hour or so, still working on the morning vodka buzz…
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Ah, now we’re getting somewhere. You said that the founders established laws with a Judeo-Christian philosophy. I’ll concede the point (though more than a few founding fathers were more Deist than Judeo-Christian). But let’s take your interpretation at face value. Is your argument that every law passed since is ALSO the result of a Judeo-Christian philosophy? And therefore the consequences for breaking all laws is a violation of the law AND a violation of morality?
Because unless you believe that there’s no way you can say that marijuana use is “immoral.” We’ve already demonstrated that there’s no scripture reference to marijuana. That’s when you said “founding fathers = judeo christian” and now we’ve established that, in their wisdom, they chose not to criminalize marijuana. So unless every single law ever passed in this country is a representation of Judeo-Christian morality you have to actually prove why THIS particular law represents a “moral” issue. Considering that this nation has a propensity for passing laws and then passing laws that overturn those laws. Or passing contradictory laws, it’s unclear how you can argue they are ALL simultaneously moral standards. Are moral standards so flexible they can literally change with each Administration?
Or, as I suspect, have you taken your personal feelings about marijuana and just said “also it’s not moral” without a single actual justification?
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM
When did we vote for this? Or is this your attempt at lending credibility to your weak arguments while at the same time attempting to discredit someone who is wiping the floor with you in this debate?
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:47 PM
When did we vote for this?
We live in a representational democracy (commonly called a Republic) and so we elct other to handle the day to day questions. Of course there are provisions for direct democracy if needed. You can check wikipedia to make sure there are lots of pictures an simple words for you.
Or is this your attempt at lending credibility to your weak arguments while at the same time attempting to discredit someone who is wiping the floor with you in this debate?
Versus someone who says “Well if the Bible does not say it is wrong then I say it is right”? Nice to know you are here so you can answer those really thorny issues for us. Please enlighten us more with your wisdom.
The Bible does not say anything about the designated hitter rule in baseball, does that mean it is OK? Or is it wrong since explicit permission is not given?
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:55 PM
DeathToMediaHacks
By the way I thought you liberals were all about making society better? Please tell me how Pot makes society better.
and remember I am talking society as a whole.
I am really curious as to your opinion on how that circle squares with you. please. and try not to go off on alchohol or other vices (cheeseburgers included) please stick to the use of marijuana. please.
Thank you.
/NO Sarc.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 12:55 PM
Are those my only two options?
Do you consider a unitarian belief Christian?
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Laws are based in morality, says a ruler from 2,000 years ago, and pot is illegal…so pot is immoral.
That’s not a trump card, but rather a cute little house of cards…
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 12:52 PM
I know reading is hard when you are trying to cite wikipedia but that is not what I said.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 12:57 PM
OK I just wanted to understand your framework. So it’s a matter of pragmatism for you. Legalization = more pot use = more pot abuse = bad for society correct?
Then you should be particularly open to the argument of this DVD. Potheads are lazy, but they don’t tend to be dangerous and they don’t tend to be a significant drag on society’s resources. The potheads I know have a job or two (welfare ain’t gonna keep you in bags of good weed). But even if there were more lazy people around (and I’m not even saying pot heads are all lazy, some are quite productive) that does not compare to the HUGE cost of housing non-violent drug offenders, or police corruption in drug trafficking or on the hundreds of lives snuffed out by gangs over the lucrative drug trade. There really is NO comparison. If you’re a pragmatist and not a moralist, what’s the choice really?
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM
AND I might add, you are getting beaten by a stoner who is stoned out of his mind right now.
Who wants some of this?!
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Still waiting for that DH ruling oh mighty stoner. Breath deeply on your magic ganga and enlighten us on the truth.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 1:00 PM
As this DVD and many others like it demonstrate, society pays HUGE costs as the result of marijuana prohibition that far outweight the mild annoyance caused by knowing a pothead. You can just choose not to hang out with them. I happen to not like people who are big drinkers so I don’t interact with them, problem solved.
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Ya, that is pretty much what you wrote — but I think you’re stuck in a passive-aggressive and non-committal rut.
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM
your PREMISE is that smoking weed is IMMORAL. . . with no backing or fact based anything other than you think it is immoral. THAT PREMISE is what I was addressing when posting that it wasn’t in the Bible.
So what you are saying now is that I am arguing that a Designated Hitter is immoral so I’m wrong.
You make less sense than a stoner. . . and you are the most arrogant poster on here with the least reason of anyone I’ve ever seen come in here.
I’d debate with you, but you are ridiculous when my rebuttal of YOUR premise is met by another worthless and awful premise that the DH isn’t in the Bible.
I’m done with you. Good day.
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM
The DH is blasphemous. I think, though, the 2-point conversion in football might be covered by scripture–though a careful reading will reveal that it isn’t to be used before the 4th quarter.
dedalus on March 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM
see, thats what I was looking for!
common ground.
but its only that I think pot possesion should be a misdemenor not a felony if its under a certain quantity.
that way it would act as a preventative with out overcrowding our jail systems.
I think that that way it would be like speeding. some folks risk a ticket to go faster, some folks would smoke weed at the risk of a fine.
but over all the usage would be kept down by law abiding citizens.
but again what the Hell do I know? I don’t smoke weed, and I don’t want to get in touch with my inner stoner to find out.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM
here’s a tip that might help you in future debates even when you are wrong. Try not to use passive verbs. If you use active verbs when proclaiming a point, you sound more confident.
But I don’t think the DH being in the Bible or not has anything to do with the price of eggs in China.
ThackerAgency on March 3, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Same here, wouldn’t be fun to run for President and have the Drive By’s ask if I ever used illegal drugs? I would say no then stand back and watch them wet themselves trying to prove me wrong. LOL
Stay square…..
Bogeyfre on March 3, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Wow, that was a backhanded way of showing a benefit.
C’mon, you can do better than that, or at least agree that the pros and cons are a wash as a benefit or detriment to society. I still say its a detriment.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 1:08 PM
That’s dumb. Why would I, or anyone for that matter want to ingest an ounce of “pure THC”? We’re talking about smoking the damn substance, not eating it.
Funeral arrangements? lol. Please inform yourself about THC,please.
RepubChica on March 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Here’s the problem with your speeding ticket analogy. In order to speed you’re not reliant upon a black market to push the pedal to the floor faster. In a country where marijuana is illegal you have to rely upon a black market to supply the drug to the millions of Americans who consume drugs. On Glenn Beck yesterday they pointed out that the marijuana trade is over 10 billion dollars in the American market ALONE.
That’s not just something that should excite those who want to eliminate the debt it should excite those who are horrified by the military strength of Mexican drug cartels who use marijuana revenue to feed their coffers, bribe politicians, the police and buy massive amounts of weapons. And for those who say “what about cocaine and heroin.” I say “what about it” the demand for those drugs is no where near the demand for marijuana. Take away pot revenue and a HUGE chunk of their income is slashed. Heck, use ALL the tax revenue from marijuana sales to fund interdiction against those gangs and their smaller coke and heroin trades. It’s a win-win for everyone and it will save lives of those destroyed by drug cartels. Making it a “misdemeanor” doesn’t do that.
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM
So lazy stoners are worse than murdering drug cartels….How exactly?
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Good God thats irritating.
Lazy stoners = misdemenor offense.
Murdering Drug cartels = electric chair.
Or Maybe you can understand if I put it this way: HURRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRR
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Yep! And I totally liked getting high.
myrenovations on March 3, 2009 at 1:21 PM
I just don’t understand how anybody who supports smaller government can support this absurd waste of resources. Who cares if people get high, I don’t want my tax dollars paying for them to go through the court system. The other part is that I would love for potheads to have to pay a tax every time they buy marijuana, maybe it would take some of the “anti-establishmentism” out of getting high. PLus that means even if they are sitting at home wasting their lives away, at least the government is recieving money.
zbunde on March 3, 2009 at 1:22 PM
Forget this trap of a thread I’m gonna go to work so I can subsidize others drug use and addiction rehab.
Y’all have Fun now Y’hear?
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 1:23 PM
I don’t want to get beat up here but…
it is high (no pun intended) time that conservatives returned to our roots as the champions of individual liberties and join with our Libertarian bretheren to fight for the decriminialization (and legalization) of marijuana and other narcotics. I am a square too, and have never partaken of any illegal narcotic… but that doesn’t mean I think that everyone should be forced to make the decisions that I have.
therambler on March 3, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Then one of two things will happen.
1) Big Weed will decide that there is no economic model that allows them to turn a profit, and then users will have to resort to the economically inefficient method of growing their own; or
2) Big Weed will decide that, just like with tobacco and liquor, even with the costs of litigation, there is reasonable profit to be made, and will market cannabis and consider the lawsuits a cost of doing business.
your argument falls flat immediately.
JohnGalt23 on March 3, 2009 at 1:24 PM
Sorry had to through this in.
If you put a tax on it not only will they be criminals who smoke it but tax cheats as well LOL.
Look at obamas cabinet and tell me they aint smoking something. (And not paying taxes LOL …AlthoughI think its crack cocaine from the results of the Dow…)
…PREPARE…
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on March 3, 2009 at 1:25 PM
Seriously, until I found this website I was lost in a the college world of straight liberalism, and when “conservatives” come out and try to limit personnel freedoms it makes me cringe. It is really quite sad though, the way liberalism has taken over my generation, I have perhaps two or three intelligent conservative friends while the rest are so lost in liberalism it is disgusting.
zbunde on March 3, 2009 at 1:27 PM
RepubChica on March 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Oh you wanted info
There was a study done on the lethal dose of THC rat and dogs were used. The level was 1% (commonly called ditch weed, really bad ditch weed) and the dose was 3000mg/kg, so for a person it works out to be about 46 lbs for a 150 lbs person. Now if you go to 100% pure THC (yes I know it is a white crystalline substance) that works out to 3.0mg/kg. 150lbs = 68 kg
68* 3.0mg =.204mg =.007 ounces (not exact but you get the idea.)
Still wanna take my bet? Still think MJ is safe?
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 1:28 PM
wasteland… maybe it is the crack cocaine that regean created in the bottom of the white house… liberals are so racist they believe that it took a white dude to cook up crack…
zbunde on March 3, 2009 at 1:29 PM
I didn’t read the Forbes’ piece, but there is a fault with that logic.
While all the money is in the private sector under prohibition, there are severe limits on what can be done with the revenues by black marketeers. These are revenues that are, by definition, untaxed. Were a pot grower to try to invest that money in stocks, bonds, or other regulated securities, questions would eventually arise as to its origins. Thus, most revenues from drug markets is either consumed, or moved offshore.
Legalize the drug trade, and those monies become legitimate, and therefore investable. True, a portion of revenues would be taxed, and therefore spent inefficiently. But the majority of them would be reflected in legitimate corporate profits.
JohnGalt23 on March 3, 2009 at 1:31 PM
OK I’m totally pro-legalization, But LOL……
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/03/cat-in-bong-man-arrested_n_171373.html
Try to avoid your huffpo hate, it’s worth it.
DeathToMediaHacks on March 3, 2009 at 1:33 PM
To keep people like Obama out of positions of power. ;-)
.
The idea that marijuana use leads to the use of hard drugs is based on the erroneous assumption. It makes more sense that the people who would use hard drugs will use marijuana.
.
The anti drug laws history is steeped in racism: opium was originally banned because of the fear of white women being seduced by Chinese men: and during Prohibition, it was noticed that heroin, and morphine users were hard to spot because they didn’t smell of alcohol. A climate of fear was whipped up, and used to ban such drugs; much like the gun control people are trying to do today.
.
For the record I may be the only 41 year old in Colorado who hasn’t taken a single hit of marijuana.
darktood on March 3, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Ya, that is pretty much what you wrote — but I think you’re stuck in a passive-aggressive and non-committal rut.
deesine on March 3, 2009 at 1:05 PM
I am not sure where you are confused but I am willing to help. Help me to help you.
LincolntheHun on March 3, 2009 at 1:35 PM
I have always looked at economics as the science/art of keeping the most people alive as possible in an environment not conducive to human survival.
I therefore hold that economics IS morality, and that which flies in the face of good economics is, by definition, immoral.
JohnGalt23 on March 3, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Ummm you do know that what causes drunk driving accidents is the driving tired part?
But let’s all be honest here.:
The legalization crowd want is legal because they wanna get high.
The Anti-Legalization crowd (I am one) is because we $&#*ing hate stoners! And we don’t want our kids growing up to become them.
- The Cat
P.S. If stoners weren’t so burnt it would be easy to get it legalized but hey, I’m not giving them the key to the argument.
MirCat on March 3, 2009 at 1:38 PM
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