The coming cap-and-trade tax

posted at 4:00 pm on March 2, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Barack Obama insists that his new tax increases will not affect 95% of Americans, who will not pay even a dime more.  He may be right about that, at least directly, but Obama has another plan that will hit every single American with a massive cost burden.  The George C. Marshall Institute analyzes the potential impact of the cap-and-trade energy system that Obama espouses and finds a big price tag that only gets bigger as we go along.

First, it will depress growth, which almost everyone predicts (page 3):

Estimated GDP losses vary widely, from a 0.3%-0.5% to 3% drop in GDP below the business-as-usual projections in 2015 and a 1% to 10% drop in 2050. The timeframes of new technology development and growth in existing clean sources of energy, availability of offsets (domestic, international), and banking of allowances are likely to account for most of these differences in GDP costs estimates.

Loss of GDP means a retracting economy, less opportunity, fewer jobs, and a decline in living standards.  The Marshall Institute offers the question of whether the US wants that as a tradeoff for the questionable effects of limiting carbon-dioxide emissions into the atmosphere.  Unfortunately, the present administration and its backers won’t acknowledge that as the choice before us, preferring to paint rosy pictures of increased living standards and prosperity while the government chokes off energy production, a contradiction they claim to solve with an explosion of “green energy” from sources that don’t exist at the moment.

How do we know that?  Even Europe, which led the “green” movement, has discovered that stopping conventional energy production doesn’t magically produce realistic, mass-production alternatives.

But the bad news gets worse.  Not only will the GDP drop over both the short and long terms, but the increased price of energy will result in substantial costs to all Americans — not just Obama’s 5% at the top (page 9):

We find that a mitigation path consistent with Lieberman-Warner’s provisions is equivalent to a permanent tax increase for the average American household. This increase is projected to amount to an additional $1100 in taxes in 2008. Moreover, this cap-and-trade “tax” increases over time in real terms from about $1400 to $2000 during 2015-2030 and approximately $2000 to $3000 in 2030-2050. The de facto tax increase becomes quite significant when one considers the average American household spends about $2500 on food annually, or approximately $208 monthly.  The decrease in consumption per capita of $277 annually is equivalent to more than one month’s food budget for the average American household, keeping other consumption levels constant.

Another way to gauge this cap-and-trade tax impact is comparing it to auto-loan payments. For example, a new 2009 C-Class Mercedes can be leased for around $429 per month.  A decrease in consumption by $1110 amounts is equivalent to 2.5 monthly payments on this luxury car. This tax amounts to aboutlmost three and a half monthly payments in 2015 and almost seven payments in 2050.

Great.  So we make less, get less, and pay more — or do without.  I can’t afford two Mercedes autos now, and given the way the markets are heading at the moment, I may not be able to afford two Schwinns by 2015.

A nation looking to boost growth has to first rely on cheap and plentiful energy.  Without that, investment disappears and so do jobs, production, and consumer confidence.  John McCain’s Lexington Plan addressed that, even if it took Paris Hilton to explain it properly.  It addressed short- and medium-range energy needs by expanding domestic oil and natural gas production and boosting nuclear power while using the proceeds of those industries to develop alternatives for the long term. Without that, all we have is energy rationing … and look how well that worked for us in the 1970s.

Read the entire Marshall analysis, and start letting your friends know that the tax on the other 95% is coming.  Soon.

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Comment pages: 1 2

Perhaps we can turn Obama-Mugabe’s idiotic “plans” into fuel, by burning them along with cow dung.

The difficult part will be telling the difference between the two.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:06 PM

Great. So we make less, get less, and pay more — or do without. I can’t afford two Mercedes autos now, and given the way the markets are heading at the moment, I may not be able to afford two Schwinns by 2015.

What a very “pedestrian” analysis, Ed.

Obama and the Democrats: Walking you can believe in

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:06 PM

This should be a surprise to no one. Obama said in the campaign that the price of gas was too low and if left to him he’d artificially inflate the price to ween us off of oil.

We knew this was coming. I’m not sure those who voted for him paid much attention to this part of his speeches.

Tman on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

It’s hilarious to see the press blame the market crash on everything but the obvious–Obama.

Never before has a president destroyed so much wealth in so little time.

blue13326 on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

From Obama’s point of view this is brilliant. Raise the taxes on energy and use a big chunk of the money to fund welfare payments to the “less fortunate” (I think only 30% of the money goes to “green projects”). People get mad at the “big oil” and utility companies for raising their rates and love the government for all the tax credits and rebate checks.

As the saying goes – “Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt”

bnichols10 on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

Liberalism is always defined by spreading misery around.

lorien1973 on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

two Schwinns by 2015

Have you priced them lately?

Be_Aware on March 2, 2009 at 4:08 PM

I always knew Green was tied to money, not the environment

Passionate-Conservative on March 2, 2009 at 4:08 PM

Sadly, they are sneaking it through like the immigration bill last time. Get on the phone people. I can’t remember where I saw it, but some of the big companies that are in favor of this is astounding…. One name on the list that loves it is Hank Paulson, who stands to make a ton of money. Things are becoming very clear now on what went on during Bush’s last months and how Hank Paulson sounded a false alarm to start all this. He was an Obama plant that Bush went along with to ensure that that idiot Schumer wouldn’t fight him. New Yorkers…. you need to get rid of Schumer, Rangel and a few others. New Jersey – get rid of Barney Frank and Connecticut, Dodd has to go. I suppose it would be too much to ask CA to get rid of Waxman, Boxer and Pelosi, huh? We have to stop this healthcare and cap and trade, if we even can. Hey, I thought these people there worked for us? What’s wrong with this picture? Get out the tea bags again, I guess. Enough…

suzyk on March 2, 2009 at 4:08 PM

I’m not sure those who voted for him paid much attention to this part of his speeches.

They were dazzled by the shiny objects.

The only tax I support is a poll tax on stupidity.

Obama-Mugabe voters will have us rolling in surpluses as far as the eye can see.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM

A nut at the wheel. We’re all gonna die…

JAM on March 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM

IT IS ALL ON PURPOSE. Do we get that now? When can we evict this poseur and get a revote?

Mommypundit on March 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM

They were dazzled by the shiny objects.

The only tax I support is a poll tax on stupidity.

Obama-Mugabe voters will have us rolling in surpluses as far as the eye can see.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM

Are you saying that they should be wearing hockey helmets, too?

/sarc

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM

I may not be able to afford two Schwinns by 2015.

Chains that we can believe in.

My collie says:

Bicycle chains, huh. Who knew?

CyberCipher on March 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM

Dow down 4% today.

Bright side: That 4% loss, is a little bit less, in real dollars, this time.

So, really, it’s all improving.

lorien1973 on March 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM

It’s not like he didn’t tell us this ahead of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTi7JOU8YzY&feature=related

Techie on March 2, 2009 at 4:11 PM

IT IS ALL ON PURPOSE. Do we get that now? When can we evict this poseur and get a revote?

Mommypundit on March 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM

Tru dat. Like I said a few days ago, it’s not inexperience. It’s a coordinated attack to destroy the major industries and the economy in general. Sh!t economy = more dependence on gubmint.

It’s about control more than anything. Rush is right. Freedom is at stake.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Yet another clear example that despite this time of financial crisis, economic recovery is not a priority for this administration.

DarkKnight3565 on March 2, 2009 at 4:12 PM

Are you saying that they should be wearing hockey helmets, too?

If I were an Obama voter, I would be wearing a paper bag over my head today.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM

Obama has stated in the past that he would like to use the money generated by the new tax to send poor Americans a check to compensate for the increased cost of energy.

Which makes no sense to me. Does he really believe that he can reduce America’s energy useage by concentrating on those who make more that $250,000 per year?

MarkTheGreat on March 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM

My God…My God…

winston on March 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM

For my work last summer I attended a hearing at the Capitol on the Lieberman-Warner cap & trade bill. Even the scientists who were speaking in favor of cap & trade, on behalf of the EPA and other organizations, admitted that this program will most likely depress GDP by up to a third. The end result? A .1 degree drop in global temperature by 2060. No way, no how, no cap & trade!

Yossarian on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

I’m not sure those who voted for him paid much attention to this part of his speeches.

Most of the people that voted for Obama have there heads implanted firmly up their rectums. They think Cap & Trade is talking about exchanging baseball caps. These people have IQ’s in the low 80′s – most of them don’t pay for anything anyway so why should they care.

I got an e-mail from an Obama supporter who commented on a youtube video about the rich paying more taxes. He said the owner of his company has stopped the profit sharing program at his job. Now that is real change you can believe in.

Obama wants these idiots to sit at home, smoke crack & watch his speeches while Obama’s henchmen think up other plans to steal what is left.

I am afraid this is all going to end very badly.

izoneguy on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

Neil Cauvuto is getting ready to show the Global Warming Rally:) Bobby Kennedy Jr., was just on Fox about an hour ago telling one of the Fox People it was time to get rid of Evil Coal….how many people does the Coal Industry Employ?

Dr Evil on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

Electric rate cps are set to expire in the next year and a half in Pennsylvania. Rate capping is not the way to go, but its expiration will be a rude awakening for sure. Combine that with this “greenhouse gas” nonsense, and people will see their bills go up abruptly. I think “skyrocket” was Obama’s term for it.

forest on March 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Does he really believe that he can reduce America’s energy useage by concentrating on those who make more that $250,000 per year?

Especially since that under the Obama-Mugabe “Choke and Burn” plan for the economy, the only people who will be making $250K per year will be drug dealers?

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM

The only thing keeping me going with this gosh horrible mess is the people who voted for bho are loosing as much money in the market and going to pay taxes like the ones that did not vote for him. Those idiots who voted for him are in for a huge let-down when the actual ones who pay taxes and the scum sucking off us have it socked to them. I hope they feel the ‘change and hope’ till it hurts!
L

letget on March 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Let’s not forget – if the economy stays exactly where it is, with no growth in GDP, demand for energy still goes up. Air conditioner and washer and dryer and other electronic sales are all baked into the current economic outlook. Where, exactly, does the Obama plan call for increasing energy supply to match? Any new power plants being built near you? Because I don’t see any in the works around here.

TubbyHubby on March 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM

Dr Evil on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

It’s always nice to see RFK Jr keeping busy when he isn’t schtupping Chavez or scoring smack.

PimFortuynsGhost on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

doing this with the economy we currently have is insane, Obama should be committed.

Food Rationing to come

jp on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

I did notice amongst the stocks I still own today that the ones which fell the least were those that could benefit from various Obama schemes, including cap-and-trade. To some extent, I feel like our business economy has been replaced with a political one. It’s like the NYSE has turned into InTrade – we’re all making bets on what Obama will do next, instead of worrying about things like how well the company is run.

kc8ukw on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

A .1 degree drop in global temperature by 2060. No way, no how, no cap & trade!

A POINT ONE DEGREE DROP??? And at what cost???

It is not about Global Warming – this is just another plan
hatched by the left to gain more control and take your money.

You know – we can fight them. Why are we waiting for them to bend us over?

izoneguy on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

Never before has a president destroyed so much wealth in so little time.

blue13326 on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

This is true but we must remember and point out that RINOs like our former president cooperatively worked with liberals to pave the road to economic crisis. Now that the libs in control have the road they are not looking back at those bridges their burning while claiming that they were solely built by the former Republican leadership.

shick on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

Neil Cauvuto is getting ready to show the Global Warming Rally:) Bobby Kennedy Jr., was just on Fox about an hour ago telling one of the Fox People it was time to get rid of Evil Coal….how many people does the Coal Industry Employ?

Dr Evil on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

It makes me laugh, really. Get rid of evil coal=get rid of more jobs.

deidre on March 2, 2009 at 4:16 PM

This will be a rapidly expanding and massively expensive extortion racket unless it is derailed quickly. The science is junk but the dollars extorted are real.

Once the money get’s effectively tagged to programs and in the minds of the program’s constituencies, it is all over and we’ll never get rid of this albatross.

God help us.

moxie_neanderthal on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

If I were an Obama voter, I would be wearing a paper bag over my head today.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM

I teach at an inner city community college. Some of my biotechnology students (range in age from 22-35) are starting to realize what Hopenchange really means.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

good news: we shouldn’t have any trouble winning Byrd’s West Va. seat

jp on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

Well wave goodby to most of the 5% who used to pay taxes as they depart the country.

jeanie on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

This idea is like selling the certification of “naming” a star after someone. Total ripoff. Get it?

BlueforYou on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

What we are witnessing right now is Obama’s recession. He will tear this great country down with his ideology of dependence and class-warfare. Cap and trade is only the latest trick of the trade for him and his fellow power-hungry politicians.

Let’s hope Obama fails and America survives.

dugan on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Dow down 4% today.

lorien1973 on March 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM

Whatever…. Let’s be honest. President Obama saved or created 6,763 DOW points today.

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Some of my biotechnology students (range in age from 22-35) are starting to realize what Hopenchange really means.

It means, “Hope for Spare Change”.

Biotechnology? What do we need that for, that stuff’s expensive.

Ask them how many biotechnoligists there are in Castro’s Cuba or Chavez’s Venezuela and if there are any, how much do they get paid.

Because we will all soon be entitled to universally crappy healthcare.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Darnedest thing these election thingies………..

……… at least we have a free and independent press, or else I’d be really scarred.

But don’t worry, everything is under control……….

Seven Percent Solution on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Well wave goodby to most of the 5% who used to pay taxes as they depart the country.

jeanie on March 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM

My Rosetta Stone – Mandarin Chinese Edition arrived in the mail today…. can’t wait to get started!

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

This suicidal system would kill our economy even in a robust upswing.

To insist on implementing this poison pill of a policy during a dangerous downturn is folly, and shows just how little interest The Messiah Mistake has in a serious effort at economic recovery.

hillbillyjim on March 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM

I strongly advocate a revolt. Load up them guns and head to DC. Take it back by force as the founders intended. I’ll say it again, the time for peaceful co-existence with liberal hacks has passed, civil war with all the trimmings is the only way to go.

larvcom on March 2, 2009 at 4:21 PM

Doctor Obomba says he will have to kill his patient before he makes him better

Herb on March 2, 2009 at 4:23 PM

President Obama saved or created 6,763 DOW points today.

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

Tee hee hee.

lorien1973 on March 2, 2009 at 4:23 PM

But don’t worry, everything is under control……….

Seven Percent Solution on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Good to see President Nero and First Lady Marie Antoinette are enjoying themselves.

Maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll both choke on a cocktail weenie.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:24 PM

I used to think Global Warming was the vehicle to destroy America. Now I see it is just the method to make sure America doesn’t recover.

cntrlfrk on March 2, 2009 at 4:25 PM

Whatever…. Let’s be honest. President Obama saved or created 6,763 DOW points today.

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

+1

moxie_neanderthal on March 2, 2009 at 4:26 PM

forest on March 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM

I know Im not looking forward to those high electric rates.My apartment is all electric and my bill now goes close to $300.00 in the winter.

I worry about all the seniors who are on fixed incomes who will have to decide between food and heating.

becki51758 on March 2, 2009 at 4:26 PM

Ya’ll want to know what’s great? Entergy, a large utilities company based in New Orleans, is converting a natural gas plant to a coal plant.

The plan was proposed in 2007 but as you may expect, government red tape held the project off. I’m waiting for the backlash to happen in my own back yard.

Entergy has already passed on the cost of repairing it’s grid after Katrina, Rita, and Gustav to consumers. They nearly went bankrupt They claim that the coal plant is to keep us from paying higher prices because of natural gas but if Obama gets his way, we’re going to pay for Entergy’s carbon credits.

Lay-Z on March 2, 2009 at 4:26 PM

1 degree drop in global temperature by 2060. No way, no how, no cap & trade!

Yossarian on March 2, 2009 at 4:14 PM

Are you sure you remembered this right?

Even the IPCC was forced to admit that if every country in the world (even those that are exempted from Kyoto) were to meet the Kyoto targets for CO2 reduction, it would only avoid a few hundredths of a degree of warming by 2050.

MarkTheGreat on March 2, 2009 at 4:26 PM

Look on the bright side: this’ll mean at least another $100 million in Al Bore’s pockets! wOOt!

MrScribbler on March 2, 2009 at 4:27 PM

Maybe we should just tax those who voted for “Hope & Change”.
: o )
Just a thought.

christene on March 2, 2009 at 4:27 PM

You know… I’m seriously thinking about going on a cruise, buying some new clothes and furniture and will stop paying my mortgage and creditors. The way I figure this, if I get on the unemployment, the food stamp debit card, and see about welfare I’d probably make less than what I do now. But, if I factor in NO TAXES for me then it equals out to be what I make now for busting my ass. I can get my house paid for, and live for free off the gumbint. Heck I might even buy me a Mercedes Benz.

/

Key West Reader on March 2, 2009 at 4:29 PM

Crap-and-trade was one of my biggest fears in the last election and wasn’t discussed much unfortunately. The problem of course was that McCain supported it just as much as Obama. So we were screwed either way on that one.

If there’s one issue that will turn voters against Obama aside from the mortgage crisis, it’s crap-and-trade and carbon taxes. Gas, energy, and food prices going through the roof because of some arbitrary policy based on junk science will not sit well with the average American.

Doughboy on March 2, 2009 at 4:29 PM

The cry of the democrats is that any tax on business, is not a “tax” (or fee as Romney liked to call his increases) on the individual…and the every day fool actually believes that.
After all these years, people still don’t get that costs get passed onto the customers…

right2bright on March 2, 2009 at 4:30 PM

Maybe we should just tax those who voted for “Hope & Change”.

Yeah, how about a deal.

Those of us who voted Republican can pay for the Iraq War and the Hope for Spare Change crowd can pay for Obama-Mugabe’s brilliant Economy in the Cinders, plan.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:31 PM

If I recall correctly, something like $60 billion of the first carbon cap and trade tax would go for direct payments to people euphemistically called “tax payers”.

Then a huge chunk will go to benefit more non-tax-paying- tax-payers in the way of healthcare on a shingle.

moxie_neanderthal on March 2, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Whatever…. Let’s be honest. President Obama saved or created 6,763 DOW points today.

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

That’s clever…

right2bright on March 2, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Heck I might even buy me a Mercedes Benz.

Good choice, that’s the #1 buy of Obama-Mugabe’s “Welfare-to-work-back-to-Welfare” crowd.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:33 PM

BPD on March 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM

I needed that laugh. Thanks!

revolutionismyname on March 2, 2009 at 4:33 PM

I want to study the effects of snow on shovel nlades during the summer months. Should be worth at least $2.3 million, Estimate length of study…3 years.

larvcom on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

I don’t see a huge downside with this plan. Yes, there will be an initial upfront cost but the real goal behind this plan would be to get companies to look at alternative options for their plants.

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

Thoughts?

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Biotechnology? What do we need that for, that stuff’s expensive.

Ask them how many biotechnoligists there are in Castro’s Cuba or Chavez’s Venezuela and if there are any, how much do they get paid.

Because we will all soon be entitled to universally crappy healthcare.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Yeah, I know. I’m worried. I think I’ll still have a job with the 25% increase in enrollment. People are going to college (especially community college) to get job training……..but I’m worried about my wife. She works at a big (evil) pharma company in Indianapolis that has already been told by the Obama administration to expect that reimbursement for drugs will be at a lower percentage rate.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Thanks Ed. I need to learn more about cap-and-trade.

The more I learn the more it smacks of a Wesley Mouch concept.

This will be a hard thing to combat. It isn’t standard dinner-fare conversation with people (me included) yet it looks like a huge debacle if enacted.

Montana on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

Oh, and when do we get our ration of breath credits?

And will heavy breathers be taxed more than light breathers? And will we outlaw running and sports in general? Can you imagine the CO2 cloud over an NFL Football Game?

Montana on March 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM

These guys are going for depression and inflation at the same time…

phreshone on March 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Can I claim as a tax deduction the bottle of GasEX I bought at Walgreens today?

Fuquay Steve on March 2, 2009 at 4:38 PM

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

So what?

Do you really think that if it were possible to produce energy that’s as cheap or cheaper than oil/gas/coal, someone wouldn’t have found it already?

We’ve been pouring billions into this nonsense for decades and we’re no closer now than we’ve ever been.

You know what’s going to happen?

People close to the Obama-Mugabe administration will get BILLIONS and you know what we’ll get in a few years?

“Well, we tried really hard but we just couldn’t solve the problem. And we spent all of the money. Toodles, we’re off to Antigua!”

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM

These guys are going for depression and inflation at the same time…

Hope and Change . . .

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM

I don’t see a huge downside with this plan. Yes, there will be an initial upfront cost but the real goal behind this plan would be to get companies to look at alternative options for their plants.

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

Thoughts?

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

The downside is that the alternatives don’t exist in any reliable form, and are hideously expensive.

Why should we want to force companies to use expensive, unreliable power, when cheap, reliable poweer is available.

MarkTheGreat on March 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM

So now we move on to just plain energy tax and ration. Looks like CO2 reduction had a goal no one previously wanted to talk about more tax money for government.

Originally cap and trade was to cap the level of CO2 and let those that don’t use their allocations trade/sell to others. Now it’s just another big government tax with no limits on CO2 … The hoax laid bare.

Pay more in taxes to the government, so government scientists can pretend to control the weather. What was there about ‘pay more in taxes’ that you didn’t get?

tarpon on March 2, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Once you use use your ration of breath credits, you get to participate in Carousel

phreshone on March 2, 2009 at 4:40 PM

These guys are going for depression and inflation at the same time…

phreshone on March 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM

Stagflation.

Welcome back Carter.

MarkTheGreat on March 2, 2009 at 4:40 PM

Obama’s agenda = Economic Recovery Transformation

petefrt on March 2, 2009 at 4:41 PM

First, this:

As the saying goes – “Give them bread and circuses and they will never revolt”

bnichols10 on March 2, 2009 at 4:07 PM

Obambi’s banking on it.

Then, this:

Tru dat. Like I said a few days ago, it’s not inexperience. It’s a coordinated attack to destroy the major industries and the economy in general. Sh!t economy = more dependence on gubmint.

It’s about control more than anything. Rush is right. Freedom is at stake.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:12 PM

I’d say it’s worse than that, Dr.CC. Obambi is making a few select industries transform from that of independent corporations, to political vassals. It’s all part and parcel of maintaining the state of fear (which comes from a weak economy and strong enemies outside) required to coerce the masses into clinging to a huge, powerful government which happily rapes the livelihood of its subjects.

Porkulus, income tax exemptions on >50% of the populace, and now Carbon taxes on everyone, are collectively the tipping point.

Worst of all, if you choose to leave the US, there’s no better place to go. I’ve lived in australasia for the past six and a half years, and taxes in NZ and Australia are much higher than the US. Ditto for anywhere in the EU.

Wanderlust on March 2, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Carter 2 “I’m back with a vengeance”.

I prefer the Palin/Muccio/Hilton plan.

the_nile on March 2, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Heh.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on March 2, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Obama is promising the world to the fn leaches on society and heaping millstone around the producers necks.

This is a sure-fire recipe for revolution.

TheSitRep on March 2, 2009 at 4:42 PM

Why should we want to force companies to use expensive, unreliable power, when cheap, reliable power is available.

Just off the top of my head – Because our president is a complete idiot?

I’m kinda sure that’s why.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:43 PM

Ask them how many biotechnoligists there are in Castro’s Cuba or Chavez’s Venezuela and if there are any, how much do they get paid.

Because we will all soon be entitled to universally crappy healthcare.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:20 PM

Remember when Castro needed urgent medical care? He had a specialist flown in from Spain. Funny, but lardass Moore neglected to mention that in all of his pap about how great the Cuban healthcare system is…

Wanderlust on March 2, 2009 at 4:44 PM

I don’t see a huge downside with this plan. Yes, there will be an initial upfront cost but the real goal behind this plan would be to get companies to look at alternative options for their plants.

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

Thoughts?

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

The initial upfront cost will be massive. It’ll affect every business and every American.

As for investing in alternative energy, I’m all for it. If you can give me a Mr. Fusion-powered car like Doc Brown’s, go for it. But to introduce legislation forcing corporations and consumers off of fossil fuels when we don’t have the alternative sources infrastructure or technology to support our huge energy needs in this country will result in economic disaster.

Doughboy on March 2, 2009 at 4:44 PM

Make no mistakes, porkulas and cap-and-trade will not fail. They will do exactly what they’re designed to do, crash the American economy. This is what the socialists call phase one.

darktood on March 2, 2009 at 4:44 PM

ckoeber,

Yes, there will be an initial upfront cost but the real goal behind this plan would be to get companies to look at alternative options for their plants.

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

The research would make sense if it wasn’t coerced. Any time you have the government forcing industry at gunpoint to pay for alt energy research your end result will be inefficient and ineffective (hmm, that sounds like government in general-coincidence?)

If Obama was serious about energy independence, he would have plans to break ground on fifteen new nuclear power plants by the end of the month. Other than that, there is nothing feasable available from Solar or Wind in the next 50 years which will provide the necessary amounts of energy that this country needs to operate, regardless of the amount of research and investment.

And as far as emmissions and climate change go, unless China and India are on board (which they aren’t) nothing we do will matter one little bit on the grand scheme.

Tman on March 2, 2009 at 4:45 PM

Thoughts? ckoeber

The huge downside is that we are decades away from any technology that will replace coal-generated power and we cannot stop using electricity. We still need the technologies that are in current use until we can bring others into line with them, not raise the price on existing technology until they are falsely competitive. This is stupid, unproductive and just ass-backward.

mchristian on March 2, 2009 at 4:45 PM

Before we consider this monstrosity, I would like to see O’s transcript from any of his colleges/universities that show he is somewhat familiar with economics and history. If he can produce evidence that he has some working knowledge in those areas (at least B’s) – then and only then, can this bill be debated.

Fuquay Steve on March 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM

Remember when Castro needed urgent medical care? He had a specialist flown in from Spain. Funny, but lardass Moore neglected to mention that in all of his pap about how great the Cuban healthcare system is…

I’m sure that ended up on the cutting room floor.

Well, we see what we get when over half of the population casts their vote based on what some uneducated, professional liar puts into his unwatchable “documentary”.

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM

I don’t see a huge downside with this plan. Yes, there will be an initial upfront cost but the real goal behind this plan would be to get companies to look at alternative options for their plants.

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

Thoughts?

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:34 PM

I see a huge downside. For one thing, artificially raising the price of some forms of energy to stimulate alternatives is distortion of the market. You will see false premises for investment, and poor energy source choices seen as profitable due to the false market. On top of that, you have the severe reduction in living standards imposed due to the distortion, based on a false sense of saving the planet. Coal and petroleum products are used for energy because they are the most efficient and cheap right now. If the market were allowed to take its course naturally, the next best sources (or even better sources) would be found and commercially implemented before we run out of oil and coal, sometime in the 24th century.

Vashta.Nerada on March 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM

President Dumbass did say that cap and trade would cause electricity rate to ‘skyrocket’ but Obama supporters are as deaf as they are stupid.

drjohn on March 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM

GREEN is the new RED!

Joe Caps on March 2, 2009 at 4:46 PM

This will spur alternative energy research as companies will now have a lot of incentive to cut emmissions.

So what?

Do you really think that if it were possible to produce energy that’s as cheap or cheaper than oil/gas/coal, someone wouldn’t have found it already?

We’ve been pouring billions into this nonsense for decades and we’re no closer now than we’ve ever been.

You know what’s going to happen?

People close to the Obama-Mugabe administration will get BILLIONS and you know what we’ll get in a few years?

“Well, we tried really hard but we just couldn’t solve the problem. And we spent all of the money. Toodles, we’re off to Antigua!”

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:39 PM

OK, but we REALLY need to get off of oil and gas. Look at what happened during the summer.

Is that our alternative?

There has to be a better way than to keep digging in the ground for our energy. You mean to tell me between hydrogen, biodiesel, ethanol, nuclear, solar, and wind that we cannot come up with something to get off of Oil?

We need the collective willingness to do it. I am sure Conservatives can kind the best option and use THAT to drive home conservative principles.

I don’t see a strong enough case to KEEP using oil for the next 10-20 years.

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:47 PM

When the economy is in the tank; when businesses, small and large, cannot find sources of credit or capital investment; when our overseas exports are dwindling…what’s the best thing to do?

Yep, give the economy and business another hard kick when they are down…that should fix things, right?

All this to somehow compensate for less than one-half of one degree in global temperature based on flawed science, with flawed data, and nothing resembling proof that stealing money from one sector of the economy and giving it to another sector of the economy is going to help resolve any of it anyway.

What happens when Obama runs out of taxpayers, the total economy tanks completely and all this costly quick-fix stuff based on errant science, based on hyperbole, actually, fails…again?

Build massive pyramids near our cities and line up human sacrifices to appease the goddess Gaia?

coldwarrior on March 2, 2009 at 4:47 PM

But to introduce legislation forcing corporations and consumers off of fossil fuels when we don’t have the alternative sources infrastructure or technology to support our huge energy needs in this country will result in economic disaster.

Oh, I don’t know, are you really sure that if there were a viable energy source that could cheaply and easily replace coal/oil/natural gas, that a private corporation wouldn’t want to, you know, produce it so they could MAKE TRILLIONS.

Or are they just being stick in the mud, waiting for the brilliant Obama-Mugabe plan to nudge them forward?

NoDonkey on March 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM

I thought liberals wanted to be more like Europeans.
If they do,than they will reject this scam on the American tax payer because Europe certainly is starting to:


Green tax revolt: Britons ‘will not foot bill to save planet’
Majority of Britons are opposed to increases in green taxation

By Colin Brown, Deputy Political Editor
Friday, 2 May 2008
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/green-tax-revolt-britons-will-not-foot-bill-to-save-planet-819703.html

Raising taxes on the very people who create jobs is just insane during this economic downturn America is going through.

Although the European Commission has said it wants to cut greenhouse gases by 20 percent by 2020, business leaders oppose the use of fines to oblige industry to reduce its emissions — especially in the current economic crisis.
The cost to industry is estimated at some 44 billion euros per year between 2013 and 2020, with a tonne (1.1 US tons) of C02 costing 30 euros.

Business leaders have denounced the policy as a “tax”, threatening to take their investments elsewhere and move their more polluting activities out of Europe.

When are the press going to get off their knees and start calling Obama on his spin.
This hits the middle and lower classes big time.
Combined with Obama wanting to tax dust (posted earlier on HA),there is apparently nothing a liberal won’t tax.

We have some of the best energy resources right here in America and Obama and his band of idiots will not drill,and will not go after coal,which even green countries like Germany are doing everything they can to create plants and process into energy.
But not the “smart ones”:


Joe Biden Contradicts Obama Campaign Pledge: No More Coal Clean Plants

Barack Obama pledges on his website that his administration will:

Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology.
Obama’s Department of Energy will enter into public private partnerships to develop five “first-of-a-kind” commercial scale coal-fired plants with clean carbon capture and sequestration technology

But in Ohio, Biden was asked by a voter: “Wind and solar are flourishing here in Ohio, so why are you supporting clean coal?”

Biden replied:

“We’re not supporting ‘clean coal.’ Guess what. China’s building two every week. Two dirty coal plants. And it’s polluting the United States. It’s causing people to die. … China is burning three hundred years of bad coal unless we figure out how to clean their coal up. Because it’s going to ruin your lungs and there’s nothing we can do about it. No coal plants here in America. Build them, if they’re going to build them over there make ‘em clean because they’re killing you.”

Obama’s followers at the rally that Kennedy was sponsoring
mentioned in earlier threads are totally against coal and the jobs that they create.

To the people that still hang on to this idiotic notion that Obama shows great judgment,look what his No.1 man had to say about these policies raising energy costs this weekend:

“Emanuel said energy costs are too low, anyway.”
Rahm Emanuel
Face the Nation, Mar. 1,2009

It has been past time for the MSM to call Obama out for what he is:
A LEFT WING IDIOT!

Baxter Greene on March 2, 2009 at 4:48 PM

ckoeber on March 2, 2009 at 4:47 PM

That computer you are using right now? Take a good hard look at it. Mostly made from oil.

coldwarrior on March 2, 2009 at 4:49 PM

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