Afghanistan: A tale of two tales
posted at 9:30 pm on March 2, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Michael Yon forwarded this Washington Post article on the challenges of military operations in Afghanistan. Even when a mission goes right, it can go very badly wrong in the aftermath. The Afghans blame the US for botching a raid, but the US says that the Taliban just did a better job with PR:
The first version of the raid, and the one that has stuck in the public mind, came from Mullah Abdul Mateen, the owner of the raided house. He told reporters the next day that heavily armed Americans had burst into the sleeping household, shot at his younger brother, herded the women and children into a room, then handcuffed and taken away several more brothers and a cousin.
“We are not terrorists or al-Qaeda. I am not hiding from anyone. There was no reason for the Americans to do this,” Mateen, 35, said in an interview last week. “The Americans got the wrong information from an Afghan spy. If they continue killing and arresting innocent people, the anger against them will increase.”
The provincial governor, Atiqullah Ludin, also bitterly criticized the U.S. forces, saying they had promised to avoid civilian casualties and to conduct all house raids accompanied by Afghan troops. “Now what can I tell the people of Logar?” Ludin said in apparent anguish last week. “We have to build their trust or the enemies of Afghanistan will take advantage of it.”
A very different description of the raid came from U.S. officers who carried it out. They said they were accompanied by Afghan military and intelligence officers. One was Army Maj. Todd Polk, a squad leader based at Altimur.
Polk said there was solid evidence that the dead man, identified as Sher Agha, and a second man detained in the raid possessed explosives-making materials and had helped organize a recent bomb attack on a French military facility in Logar. He said both men had been tracked to Mateen’s house and a neighboring compound.
“I was there, and I can tell you for a fact what happened,” Polk said in an interview last week. He said Agha “had an AK-47 in his hand and was trying to get away” when he was shot by U.S. forces. “If he were innocent, he would have sat there.”
The US left the village happy that they had killed two terrorists. Before they could get that information out, the Taliban had turned the incident into an example of American hubris and miscalculation. They stoked rage among the Logars, a group that has yet to fully commit to either the Taliban or the Afghan government. The US command had hoped to use this mission as an example of professionalism, but instead found themselves on the defensive, with potentially fatal damage done to the delicate relationship with the Logars.
For Michael, it sounds all too familiar:
This Washington Post story rings true with my experience from October 2008. I was in Afghanistan, and embeds with U.S. soldiers in that particular area were hard to come by, so I endeavored to hear the other side of the story, which was much easier to accomplish. It’s amazing that it’s easier to interview potential enemies than to embed with U.S. forces. Anyway, I went to the area near the village of Sper Kundy, just near Sarobi, where 10 French soldiers had recently died, and interviewed two men from the village.
Michael tells the entire story in his October 2008 post, My Road to Hell. Be sure to read it all.
We need to do much better with communications in Afghanistan. We cannot allow the Taliban to beat us to the punch in this manner if we expect to build alliances with Afghans in the fight against terrorists. I’m more than a little surprised that we haven’t learned that lesson from our experiences in Iraq.
Blowback
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who is underneath petraeus in AF.? This person is about to face a make or break spring — anyone have a read on this guy?
Buckaroo on March 2, 2009 at 9:36 PM
A tale of two tales,
a American Military tale,as well as,
a Canadian Military tale!!
canopfor on March 2, 2009 at 9:38 PM
Interesting,
and this is happening on Obama’s watch!
I wonder which story Obama believes!
Will El Code Pinko’s march to the White house
and demand action!
Will murtha call it,”In cold Blood”
Will Harry Reid,demand a ‘Surge’ be launched ASAP!
Will Nancy Pelosi,blame “8 years of failed Bush polices”!
canopfor on March 2, 2009 at 9:46 PM
Buckaroo on March 2, 2009 at 9:36 PM
That would be Gen. David D. McKiernan.
youngTXcon on March 2, 2009 at 9:51 PM
It’s an illegal and unjust war, and I think Obama should be tried for war crimes!
Oh, wait a minute, it’s different now, right?
mr.blacksheep on March 2, 2009 at 9:51 PM
For the past several decades the military has been working overtime trying to win the hearts and minds of…Americans.
In the meantime, seems the organic ability to use basic tools of, dare I say, propaganda in theater is lacking in spades. We have a good number of civil affairs brigades, and many more civil affairs battalions…why are they not involved, daily, getting close to the locals, working in tandem with medics and engineers, to let the locals know that we are indeed their last best hope?
Lessons learned is a big part of any engagement. Remembering lessons learned from previous engagements is also something that needs to be addressed.
In the meantime, the Taliban and AQ can spout their lies and spin, which is accepted as fact in Afghanistan and here in the US.
Wish it weren’t so. Our guys, and the Brits and Canadians, and a few others are busting their humps to get the big job done. It is a shame that the little things are getting in the way, rendering all their efforts moot too often.
coldwarrior on March 2, 2009 at 9:52 PM
The Taliban has huge advantages in Afghanistan that al-Qaeda never achieved in Iraq. One of the neglected stories is the unfettered kidnapping and execution of Christian missionaries by the Taliban as blackmail to force American allies out and as leverage for the release of their own captured fighters.
My son’s dearest childhood friend, a Marine, will be deployed there soon. We pray that the Obama administration provides the maximum support to our troops.
Terrie on March 2, 2009 at 9:54 PM
“youngTXcon on March 2, 2009 at 9:51 PM”
Thx. Anyone here ever served under this guy?
Buckaroo on March 2, 2009 at 9:55 PM
Can anyone tell me why we are in Afghanistan?
Badbrucskie on March 2, 2009 at 9:57 PM
Circa 2012:
Just about four years ago I set out on Obama’s Afghanistan road,
Seekin’ my fame and glory, lookin’ to turn the
$hitholeplace into a pot of gold.Well, things got bad, and things got worse, I guess you will know the tune.
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
Flew in on a big plane, I hope I’ll be in one piece flyin out when I go.
I was just passin’ through, must now be yet another 2 tours or more.
Running out of time and patience, looks like they took more of my friends.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
The Hope and Change man in the White House said yet again I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost his connection, he ran out of words to say.
I came into Kabul, a one year stand, looks like the plans fell through again
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
Mmmm…
If I only had a woman, for evry Obama tour Ive done.
And evry time Ive had to fight while Obama and Biden sat back home power drunk.
You know, Id like to catch the next plane back to where Im from.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan again.
- CCR Soldier Boy
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:03 PM
“Badbrucskie on March 2, 2009 at 9:57 PM”
presuming u r asking seriously, the karzai governemnt, put into place by the afghan people in the first chance they ever had to vote for their national leadership in a VERY long time, is about where the iraqi government was circa ’06 — i.e. not able to function 100% w/o assistance. we’re there to faciitate their continued growth into a functioning nation state AND kill whichever terrorists wish to show themselves to our forces …
Buckaroo on March 2, 2009 at 10:05 PM
To loot the country of all their science, medical advancements and technology?
To receive instruction on the greatest religion and way of life evah!?
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:07 PM
Inexcusable. Why are we not dropping crank radios and pumping out the AM.
- The Cat
P.S. But then again AQ will then start broadcasting too. . . of course we’ll just use that as a locator beacon muahaha
MirCat on March 2, 2009 at 10:12 PM
Looking for Santa Clause?
Ortzinator on March 2, 2009 at 10:12 PM
Win the ‘trust’ of people who hate us? What?
Iin making a primary objective out of winning the “trust” of the Afghan people, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs has, by definition, abandoned all rational war policy. Indeed, he has placed the marker for American success not on the ability of U.S. forces to execute their missions, but on the emotional reaction of the average, illiterate, infidel-hostile, modernity-challenged Afghan to those missions.
Thus, Mullen blames the Afghan failure to hail the United States as the conquering hero on a purely American failure to maintain Afghan “trust” — an unfair rap, frankly, on dedicated troops stretched thin by far too many years of deployment. Indeed, Mullen broaches the “trust” topic with a distasteful allusion to Pleminius, a Roman tyrant, who became notorious for his and his soldier’s raping, pillaging and plundering of the Locrians, who expected and ultimately received restitution from Rome.
“We are not Romans, of course,” Mullen writes.
Gee, thanks a lot.
He adds: “You cannot defeat an insurgency this way.”
Oh yeah? Betcha could if the “civilians” he’s talking about loathed the “insurgents” he’s talking about more than the “us” he’s talking about. But that never happens in “insurgencies,” and Afghanistan is no different. Not even when the new U.N. survey on civilian deaths in Afghanistan reveals that the Taliban and other insurgents are responsible for most such civilians deaths, as The New York Times reports, “primarily through suicide bombers and roadside bombs, many aimed at killing as many civilians as possible.”
But all nonrational — or, more accurately, non-Western — Afghan reactions to America’s best efforts and great sacrifices against the jihadists in Afghanistan are, in Mullen’s telling, America’s responsibility, if not fault. Mullen goes on to accept, with resignation — practically with equanimity — the thoroughly bizarre idea that “each civilian casualty for which we are even remotely responsible sets back our efforts to gain the confidence of the Afghan people months, if not years.” The implication is, of course, that we must fight on, and now with twice as many troops, to win that Afghan “confidence.”
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:18 PM
Go check it out.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:23 PM
Once again the lefties in the Obamanation have struck, releasing classified memos of candid opinions written by the dOj and White House counsel’s office following 9/11. What attorney in the Obama Administration would put down anything controversial, if a future Administration would release it for political points and endanger national security:
“Obama releases secret Bush anti-terror memos
*
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By DEVLIN BARRETT and MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writers Devlin Barrett And Matt Apuzzo, Associated Press Writers – Mon Mar 2, 6:26 pm ET
Featured Topics:
* Barack Obama
* Presidential Transition
Justice Department memos from 2001 are seen in Washington Monday, March 2, 2009. AP – Justice Department memos from 2001 are seen in Washington Monday, March 2, 2009. The Justice Department …
* Target: Terror Play Video Video:Target: Terror FOX News
* Cashing In on Terror Play Video Video:Cashing In on Terror FOX News
* President Obama Introduces New Nominee Play Video Video:President Obama Introduces New Nominee ABC News
WASHINGTON – The Obama administration threw open the curtain on years of Bush-era secrets Monday, revealing anti-terror memos that claimed exceptional search-and-seizure powers and divulging that the CIA destroyed nearly 100 videotapes of interrogations and other treatment of terror suspects.
The Justice Department released nine legal opinions showing that, following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Bush administration determined that certain constitutional rights would not apply during the coming fight. Within two weeks, government lawyers were already discussing ways to wiretap U.S. conversations without warrants.
The Bush administration eventually abandoned many of the legal conclusions, but the documents themselves had been closely held. By releasing them, President Barack Obama continued a house-cleaning of the previous administration’s most contentious policies.
“Too often over the past decade, the fight against terrorism has been viewed as a zero-sum battle with our civil liberties,” Attorney General Eric Holder said in a speech a few hours before the documents were released. “Not only is that school of thought misguided, I fear that in actuality it does more harm than good.”
The Obama administration also acknowledged in court documents Monday that the CIA destroyed 92 videos involving terror suspects, including interrogations — far more than had been known. Congressional Democrats and other critics have charged that some of the harsh interrogation techniques amounted to torture, a contention President George W. Bush and other Bush officials rejected.
The new administration pledged on Monday to begin turning over documents related to the videos to a federal judge and to make as much information public as possible.
The legal memos written by the Bush administration’s Office of Legal Counsel show a government grappling with how to wage war on terrorism in a fast-changing world. The conclusion, reiterated in page after page of documents, was that the president had broad authority to set aside constitutional rights.
Fourth Amendment protections against unwarranted search and seizure, for instance, did not apply in the United States as long as the president was combatting terrorism, the Justice Department said in an Oct. 23, 2001, memo.
“First Amendment speech and press rights may also be subordinated to the overriding need to wage war successfully,” Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo wrote, adding later: “The current campaign against terrorism may require even broader exercises of federal power domestically.”
On Sept. 25, 2001, Yoo discussed possible changes to the laws governing wiretaps for intelligence gathering. In that memo, he said the government’s interest in keeping the nation safe following the terrorist attacks might justify warrantless searches.
That memo did not specifically attempt to justify the government’s warrantless wiretapping program, but it provided part of the foundation.
Yoo, now a professor at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law, did not return messages seeking comment.
The memos reflected a belief within the Bush administration that the president had broad powers that could not be checked by Congress or the courts. That stance, in one form or another, became the foundation for many policies: holding detainees at Guantanamo Bay, eavesdropping on U.S. citizens without warrants, using tough new CIA interrogation tactics and locking U.S. citizens in military brigs without charges.
Obama has pledged to close the Guantanamo Bay prison within a year. He halted the CIA’s intensive interrogation program. And last week, prosecutors moved the terrorism case against U.S. resident Ali Al-Marri, a suspected al-Qaida sleeper agent held in a military brig, to a civilian courthouse.
A criminal prosecutor is wrapping up an investigation of the destruction of the tapes of interrogations.
Monday’s acknowledgment of videotape destruction, however, involved a civil lawsuit filed in New York by the American Civil Liberties Union.
“The CIA can now identify the number of videotapes that were destroyed,” said the letter submitted in that case by Acting U.S. Attorney Lev Dassin. “Ninety-two videotapes were destroyed.”
It is not clear what exactly was on the recordings. The government’s letter cites interrogation videos, but the lawsuit against the Defense Department also seeks records related to treatment of detainees, any deaths of detainees and the CIA’s sending of suspects overseas, known as “extraordinary rendition.”
At the White House, press secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters he hadn’t spoken to the president about the report, but he called the news about the videotapes “sad” and said Obama was committed to ending torture while also protecting American values.
ACLU attorney Amrit Singh said the CIA should be held in contempt of court for holding back the information for so long.
“The large number of videotapes destroyed confirms that the agency engaged in a systematic attempt to hide evidence of its illegal interrogations and to evade the court’s order,” Singh said.
CIA spokesman George Little said the agency “has certainly cooperated with the Department of Justice investigation. If anyone thinks it’s agency policy to impede the enforcement of American law, they simply don’t know the facts.”
The details of interrogations of terror suspects, and the existence of tapes documenting those sessions, have become the subject of long fights in a number of different court cases. In the trial of Sept. 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui, prosecutors initially claimed no such recordings existed, then acknowledged after the trial was over that two videotapes and one audiotape had been made.
The Dassin letter, dated March 2 to Judge Alvin Hellerstein, says the CIA is now gathering more details for the lawsuit, including a list of the destroyed records, any secondary accounts that describe the destroyed contents and the identities of those who may have viewed or possessed the recordings before they were destroyed.
But the lawyers also note that some of that information may be classified, such as the names of CIA personnel who viewed the tapes.
The separate criminal investigation includes interrogations of al-Qaida lieutenant Abu Zubaydah and another top al-Qaida leader. Tapes of those interrogations were destroyed, in part, the Bush administration said, to protect the identities of the government questioners at a time the Justice Department was debating whether or not the tactics used during the interrogations were legal.
Former CIA director Michael Hayden acknowledged that waterboarding — simulated drowning — was used on three suspects, including the two whose interrogations were recorded.
John Durham, a senior career prosecutor in Connecticut, is leading the criminal investigation, out of Virginia, and had asked that he be given until the end of February to wrap up his work before requests for information in the civil lawsuit were dealt with.”
___
eaglewingz08 on March 2, 2009 at 10:24 PM
If we just assume we’re dealing with democrats we would act accordingly. They’ve taken a page out of the democrat strategy handbook.
Mojave Mark on March 2, 2009 at 10:24 PM
Firsthand knowledge is often the best kind of knowledge…
coldwarrior on March 2, 2009 at 10:25 PM
And I am more than a lot supervised that we seem to have forgotten pretty much all the lessons from our experience in Vietnam.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:25 PM
History may not always repeat but it usually at least rhymes.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:27 PM
He was my first brigade commander when I was a mech infantry platoon leader. I couldn’t really say one way or another how great of a commander he was – he seemed like any other infantry COL that I have ever experienced – both competent and intelligent. Hell I was still trying to figure out which way was up as a new PLT LDR. Funny thing is that I then taught his daughter military science 101 when she was a plebe at West Point.
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Amen Brother, as long as there’s people that can put politics over patriotism, it’ll be there. (We still owe you)
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Are you asking about Petraeus or the guys that’ll be under him?
He was my Division Commander here at Bragg.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Can anyone tell me why we are in Afghanistan?
Badbrucskie on March 2, 2009 at 9:57 PM
Trying to corner the market on those cool stack-o’-pancake hats they wear.
Bishop on March 2, 2009 at 10:32 PM
And many writers have imagined for themselves republics and
principalities that have never been seen or known to exist in reality [certainly in Afghanistan]; for there is such a gap between how one lives [certainly in Afghanistan] and how one ought to live [certainly in Afghanistan] that anyone who abandons what is done [certainly in Afghanistan] for what ought to be done [certainly in Afghanistan] learns his ruin rather than his preservation [certainly in Afghanistan]: for a man who wishes to profess goodness [certainly in Afghanistan] at all times will come to ruin among so many who are not good [certainly in Afghanistan].
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:35 PM
David Petraeus is as hard as woodpecker lips. 1991, 101st at Ft. Campbell, he’s accidentally shot in the chest during a live-fire exercise. What’s the last thing he says as they cart him off the field? “Don’t stop training.”
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:37 PM
PARTIAL LIST OF DOCUMENTS THAT BARACK OBAMA REFUSES TO RELEASE -. OBAMA’S SECRECY AND “CLOSED RECORDS” POLICY
Indonesian Passport – Not released
Application for U.S. Citizenship (as former citizen of Indonesia) – Not released
Immigration Records – Not released
Original Vault Copy Birth Certificate – Not released
Certificate of Live Birth – Counterfeit Version on Obama Web Site
Obama / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro Adoption Records – Not Released
Fransiskus Assisi School Application – Not released
Punahou School Records – Not released
Selective Service Registration – Counterfeit version generated
Occidental College records – Not released
Columbia College Records – Not released
Columbia Thesis – Not released
Harvard College Records – Not released
Baptism Certificate – None
Medical Records – Not released
Illinois State Senate Records – Not released
Law Practice Client List – Not released
University of Chicago Scholarly Articles – None
searcher484 on March 2, 2009 at 10:41 PM
Do you know what General Petraeus’s nickname among the close by “In troops” was in Iraq? Not the slanderous one that rhymes, of course.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:49 PM
I commanded an airborne infantry company in Afghanistan from 2003 – 2004 and I am actually working on my master’s thesis on Afghanistan as well – so I am going to say that I consider myself fairly knowledgable on the situation in Afghanistan. What a complex mess! There are so many interrelated factors that play into that insurgency that it makes creating any sort of comprehensive COIN strategy almost impossible – anything that brings success in one area inevitably exacerbates the negative feelings and reasons for joining the Neo-Taliban somewhere else. This story is a fine example. I have determined that there are a few key factors that fuel this insurgency:
1. The intrinsic weakness of the state – the Karzai government cannot provide services or security to the country, especially the remote areas along the border w/ Pakistan.
2. There is a Neo-Taliban movement that openly seeks to destroy the state that is made up some of the old Taliban, new recruits from the hardline madrassas in the NWFP and FATA of Pakistan, (These madrassas are like jihadi factories) foreign fighters, that include Al Qaeda come to Afghanistan to fight the West and fight for Islam These are the guys who work every possible angle to recruit the average Afghan to support the insurgency
3. The drug trade is both a consequence and a contributing factor of the insurgency. Because so many farmers make a living cultivating poppies, they are automatically on the wrong side of the law. The Neo-Taliban leverages this by providing security for the crops and thus coopting these people into the fold of the insurgency.
4. Collateral damage caused by attacks – the Afghan people live by a code of honor that includes in it the honor of a man’s abode. Violating that violates his honor and thus makes it easy for him to join the insurgency. Especially when a raid or search is done based on bad intel or where there is innocent death or detaining of non insurgents. This causes many to join the insurgency.
5. Historically, the Afghan people have been very resistent to foreign occupation (British, Russians, now Americans). The Neo-Taliban are now also trying to use this as a recruiting tool and it is working. Add to this recruiting pitch the religious flavor of Americans being infidels and that all good muslims must fight against them. It is a powerful argument.
6. The abject poverty of this country (you have not seen poor people until you have been to Afghanistan) is staggering. This puts most people desperate and on the edge of pissed off to begin with. The Neo-Taliban pays better than the Afghan National Army or Police. The fact that there has been a Karzai government since 2002 and that most Afghans haven’t seen any real improvement in their lot in life is a classic reason for being able to be convinced that the government needs changed.
7. The Pashtuns (54% of the country) perceive that they have been shut out of the government. This is because the Taliban government was largely seen as a Pashtun led government. The northern alliance, which we enlisted to help us overthrow the Taliban, were very anti-Taliban and thus seen as anti-Pashtun. Tajiks and Uzbeks have gotten a larger representation within the government than have the Pashtuns and this causes problems with 54% of the country. And thus we add an ethnic flavor to the problem.
These are the biggest reasons for the insurgency. Add to this the corruption of the new government in the remote provinces and warlords who still weild power – and you have the recipe for an almost impossible situation. Just adding more troops will, without a doubt, fail without a change in strategy. What should that strategy be? If you know the answer to that you are a better man than me.
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 10:49 PM
Reminds me of Reagan’s, “Nancy, I forgot to duck”.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 10:50 PM
I don’t MB4.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:50 PM
True story.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 10:52 PM
searcher484….dude you are out there….way out there
athensboy on March 2, 2009 at 10:52 PM
Infidel dogs will never be trusted over fellow Muslims.
We can do no right.
We are unclean.
Just kill the troublemakers and stop worrying about our image.
It is bad to Muslims, period, until we convert to Islam.
And since that ain’t going to happen, just smile, sight and shoot.
profitsbeard on March 2, 2009 at 10:57 PM
There has been extremely poor and incompetent leadership in Central Command until General Petraeus recently took over. The dead hand of the chair warming political poltroons and defeatists at Centcom, and their preposterous rules of engagement, have cost the U.S. countless opportunities to destroy the enemy in Afghanistan, including the incident when permission was refused to bomb an Al Qaeda funeral with their soldiers and top officers packed into a graveyard
Why can’t I, or anyone else, imagine hearing General Eisenhower saying, “My Goodness, we can’t have the Army Air Corp bombing the funeral of SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard “The Beast” Heydrich, we might kill someone important like Chancellor Hitler and his senior OKW officers.”
Let us never forget the cowardly and craven actions of Centcom’s politically correct Lt. General Francis Kearney, who ordered two Special Forces soldiers back to Ft. Bragg to face court martial after they had twice been cleared of any wrong doing for shooting a top ten most wanted terrorist in Afghanistan. They were finally cleared for the third time, no thanks to the Special Forces hating General Kearney. Kearney was typical of the grotesque hacks who have been, until recently, controlling Centcom. Let’s give General Petraeus a good chance to clear up the Afghanistan situation.
John Adams on March 2, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Wait I remember this one it’s ahh… Oh ya its for the oil!. No hold on, it’s for the wool!
Maybe the opium?
Bunsin on March 2, 2009 at 11:01 PM
Well, I doubt that I am a better man than you, but -
Chaos always wins, because it’s better organized. If at first you don’t succeed destroy all evidence that you ever tried.
- Murphy
The wise man does at once what the fool does finally.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:01 PM
I am pretty sure that you are joking, but just wait till Obama has been in office for another year or two and you may well not be.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:03 PM
Seriously though, thanks for the insight and your service
Bunsin on March 2, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Oh, and -
One must be as a lion to frighten off wolves, but as a fox to recognize traps.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Mr. Clean.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:09 PM
I have no doubt that if the Neo-Taliban are ultimately successful and the Afghan state fails that there will be no viable government to replace it. It will be the same thing that happened after the fall of the Najibullah communist backed regime after the departure of the Soviets in 1989. There was about 5 years of terrible civil war until the Taliban was able to seize control of most of the country through a brutal rise to power.
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:09 PM
From me too Sir. You guys on the ground are what it’s all about. Now get that weapon pointed at the floor and don’t give the crew chief any crap. ;-)
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing. When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 5 star General and 34th President of the United States of America.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:12 PM
Team baby, team! No one part can work without all of the other parts working. Besides, we love riding in helicopters and jumping out of them even more!
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:15 PM
He just a real personable guy too. When I was the 1-159TH SP here at Bragg he was our Division Commander. There was an awful midair collision of Blackhawks with the 25TH Avn in Hawaii. It was an NVG mission so the news was making like we take to many risks flying complex missions under NVGs. I was asked by the command to do an interview with The Fayetteville Observer to talk about NVGs and assuage the public fear of us flying NVGs. Gen Petraeus sent a personal e-mail to me and said good job with it. I was really floored that he’d take the time.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:17 PM
We need to decide what the mission really is in Afghanistan. It isn’t a country in the sense that most Americans have of a nation state. It is a rather loose federation of various tribes who, traditionally, agreed to be led by a king. But practically each region has their own language. Most people can not read or write even one of them.
If our goal is to build a country that can stand up to the Taliban, we are going to be there for a long time as children are educated in primary and secondary schools and then trained in various professions. There needs to be the establishment of a common national language with a communications infrastructure in that language so kids from all over Afghanistan grow up with a common cultural identity.
If nation building is our goal there, then we should be prepared to be there for one or two generations AT MINIMUM. Simply “defeating” the Taliban is never going to happen because they can sit in Pakistan, if they want, declare peace, wait till we leave and start it up all over again.
crosspatch on March 2, 2009 at 11:17 PM
The United States intervened in the Vietnam War on behalf of a weak and incompetent ally, and it pursued a conventional military victory against a wily, elusive, and extraordinarily determined opponent who shifted to ultimately decisive conventional military operations only after inevitable American political exhaustion undermined potentially decisive US military responses. Even had the United States attained a conclusive military decision, its cost would have exceeded any possible benefit. Vietnam was then, and remains today, a strategic backwater. The United States could not have prevented the forcible reunification of Vietnam under communist auspices at a morally, materially, and strategically acceptable price.
- The US Army War College Quarterly, Winter 1996-97
If I had a crystal ball I could tell you what, say The US Army War College Quarterly, Winter 2026-2027 would say. I don’t but I can guess.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Sounds like the Taliban has hired some experienced, Bush-bashing, PRESSSSidential in-beds.
droofus on March 2, 2009 at 11:18 PM
lol, Jumping out, hmm, jumping out. Nope, couldn’t evah.
Truth be know, if my 4th point of contact wasn’t belted to my seat, I’d be scared to death. I have been in XVIII ABN Corps or the 82nd here at Bragg for most of my career and you got to know it’s hard being a leg in an Airborne Division.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:23 PM
Anyone who tells you that they still don’t get a little nervous before a jump is either lying or shouldn’t be jumping anymore. Funny thing is that I am not a fan of flying. I am much happier upon exit of the A/C than I am sitting inside of it.
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:26 PM
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Long before we could somehow get them to have a common national language, here in America no tendremos una mas.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:27 PM
I have full faith and confidence that this administration will turn Afghanistan back into what it once was…a festering, backward, stinkhole, terrorist haven. And in doing so, he will accomplish a two-fer..discrediting the US amongst freedom loving people around the world for at least 2 generations.
AUINSC on March 2, 2009 at 11:29 PM
If you’re still in you must be a pretty senior major by now. Who are you with right now?
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:29 PM
The infantry walks, the Artillery rides and size does count. :)
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:31 PM
End the occupation.
The Dean on March 2, 2009 at 11:36 PM
I am with the U.S. Army Student Detachment while I go to grad school. I will head to Leavenworth this summer for ILE which used to be called Command and General Staff College. After that, back to a unit. What about you?
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:37 PM
That was perhaps the best post I have read about how the Afghan fight is going. Excellent from all ends.
On a side note if we had some testicles we could take a page out of Caligula’s book; “Oderint dum Metuant!” For all the non-Latin speakers out there it means “Let them hate us, as long as they fear us!” All of this talk of how America is the new Rome makes me laugh. I am a student and teacher of Roman History, and I assure you we have very little in common with them.
txaggie on March 2, 2009 at 11:38 PM
Drat! Now you all are reminding me of what “almost was”, when I “almost” went to Army flight school. Missed it by “that much!”. Out of FA school they called the names of a few of us and said that we had been selected for flight school, if we wanted it. You had to have 20/50 or better vision in both eyes. I had 20/20 in my right eye and 20/100 in my left, so I figured that they must have lost my medical records (the Army was good at that back then), so I figured that I would just squint with my left eye and get 20/50, but when I got over to another building they had my medical records after all, and just had not looked at them yet, and so “no go”. Then when I got back to the first building it was too late to sign for “jump school” which I likely would have done if they had not said that I had been selected for Army flight school. Oh well, maybe I would have crashed anyway or forgot to pull the cord.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:39 PM
Yes very scholarly and well thought out, but it has also got to be very discouraging to anyone who thinks we should stay as it makes Vietnam seem simple by comparison and we know how that worked out.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:42 PM
It is a static line jump – it “pulls the cord” for you. All you gotta do is jump!
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:43 PM
I just passed my position responsibilities of 82ND CAB Standardization Instructor Pilot to my friend and will be retiring in September. I have one last big responsibility of helping push them out to OEF one more time. They have about 6 weeks and I’ll tell you Sir, it’s getting hard knowing they’ll be gone.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:44 PM
Muslims don’t love freedom (well maybe some do). They love the Koran and submission to it. Their submission to it and yours.
MB4 on March 2, 2009 at 11:45 PM
September? Good for you – congrats and thanks for your service. Train them good and make sure they have everything they need. I am sure that they will do well. Send lots of care packages!
Do you have anything lined up after Sept?
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:49 PM
Yeah, I’m an artist too. I’m going to open an art studio and production shop here in Fayetteville, (Raeford actually) and I’m going to try to corner the market with figurines that you guys’ll buy for your Hail and Farewells.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Good deal. You’ll have to let me know if you have a website when you start your studio. I never know – after ILE I could be coming to Bragg.
King of the Britons on March 2, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Hooah. You got it Sir. It’ll be pretty quick. I already have two in production. 18 inch figures of a crew chief and one of an aviator. I just started a female aviator.
BTW, your time in OEF would have put you with either Bragg/Savannah 47s from my organization or 60s from the 82nd for aviation support. That period of time I was still 1-159th.
hawkdriver on March 2, 2009 at 11:59 PM
That’s a funny story MB4. We can take you today. LASIK Eye Surgery and glasses, Baby. You just need to be able to have you vision correctable to 20/50. I’ll write the LOR for you.
hawkdriver on March 3, 2009 at 12:05 AM
ROE. Cause and effect.
Limerick on March 3, 2009 at 12:12 AM
Actually I had an RK done on my left eye years ago, 20/20 now. Are you sure you mean correctable to 20/50? Back then it had to be 20/50, in both eyes, uncorrected and 20/20 corrected. Anyway right now to get me in you would have to find some of that water that Ponce de Leon was searching for.
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 12:51 AM
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 12:51 AM
Hows the goat?
dmann on March 3, 2009 at 1:20 AM
The grandson recently returned from his deployment. Not a very pleasant place.
Johan Klaus on March 3, 2009 at 1:21 AM
And the marines sing, “one shot one kill”.
Johan Klaus on March 3, 2009 at 1:24 AM
Fortunately those two Mohammadians never caught him and I’ve still got their BMW.
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 1:33 AM
And the Artillery says, “Always send a 155 when you care to send the very best!” or as Ronald Reagan would say, ‘Trust, but verify”.
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 1:36 AM
You’re not incorrect. But you said yo had 20/100 in one eye. You’d need Lasik, but the Lasik only needs to correct you to 20/50 if your glasses can get you 20/20. If you’re corrected to 20/20 without glasses you’re in. BTW, The LOR comes with a shot of Ponce de Leon Punch.
hawkdriver on March 3, 2009 at 1:37 AM
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 1:33 AM
Nice, but your dodging about the goat! One of techs on my crew is an ex Paladin operator….what?
dmann on March 3, 2009 at 1:44 AM
Better make that a double. Shaken, not stirred.
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 1:47 AM
lol, You’re too much there Redleg. Off to my cot and fart sack with me.
hawkdriver on March 3, 2009 at 1:50 AM
Don’t worry about the goat. He’s fine. I put a chastity belt on him just in case he is really a her and the two Mohammadians come by again.
I thought that Tommy canceled that before it got too far.
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 1:53 AM
Test, 2 responses are AWOL…WTF!
dmann on March 3, 2009 at 2:13 AM
One of the best posts on Afghanistan I’ve seen in a long long time. And the subsequent posts, providing background, are enlightening.
Good to have guys like you around. Sounds trite, I know, but thank you.
And hawkdriver and MB4…likewise.
coldwarrior on March 3, 2009 at 5:29 AM
Uh oh. He’s a bureaucrat who knows how to take ground but not hold it, and doesn’t pay attention to the locals. It was on his watch Iraq was easily beaten and then allowed to degenerate into chaos.
Better question: who sorted out the mess he left in Iraq?
MarkT on March 3, 2009 at 8:52 AM
PARTIAL LIST OF DOCUMENTS THAT BARACK OBAMA REFUSES TO RELEASE -. OBAMA’S SECRECY AND “CLOSED RECORDS” POLICY
Indonesian Passport – Not released
Application for U.S. Citizenship (as former citizen of Indonesia) – Not released
Immigration Records – Not released
Original Vault Copy Birth Certificate – Not released
Certificate of Live Birth – Counterfeit Version on Obama Web Site
Obama / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro / Dunham Marriage License – Not released
Soetoro Adoption Records – Not Released
Fransiskus Assisi School Application – Not released
Punahou School Records – Not released
Selective Service Registration – Counterfeit version generated
Occidental College records – Not released
Columbia College Records – Not released
Columbia Thesis – Not released
Harvard College Records – Not released
Baptism Certificate – None
Medical Records – Not released
Illinois State Senate Records – Not released
Law Practice Client List – Not released
University of Chicago Scholarly Articles – None ..,/,;
searcher484 on March 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM
My only question is will she look real (like one you know) or ideal (like one you wish you knew)?
platypus on March 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM
If we are trying to bring order to a disorderly area, then we need a chaotic solution: we do that better than anyone on the planet. It is time to change the parameters of the mission and fight harder in a direction no one expects… unfortunately that takes actual insight into warfare, logistics, supply and diplomacy and we have elected a team lacking in all those particulars.
In the meantime al Qaeda spreads deeper into Pakistan absorbing Taliban and Mehsuds, and opening nice bomb factories where suicide bombers are trained and can even be purchased for private hits. Someone is sure bringing chaos in to the area and we had better get ready with our own… but, alas, that is not to be under this administration. They refuse to use their brains to save sweat and blood, and Rommel would have detested that.
ajacksonian on March 3, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate.
- Sun Tzu
Hence that general is skilful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skilful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.
- Sun Tzu
MB4 on March 3, 2009 at 12:41 PM
I suspect that even incompetent generals can recognize the need to change our strategy in Afghanistan. However, I believe that no one can agree upon which direction we should fight. Invariably, choosing any one direction hurts us somewhere else. There is such a dearth of any skilled people in government, industry, agriculture, etc. in Afghanistan as a result of the exodus of such people during the Soviet war and the subsequent civil war and Taliban rule that it is almost impossible to even run an even baseline competent program in any area of endeavor there. Therefore we get remote provincial and district governments that are corrupt and subject to Neo-Taliban influence.
We can fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but it will not fundamentally change the conditions that are just ripe for fomenting insurgency and violence. Can we, as the U.S. and NATO and the intl. community do it? Maybe in 25 years. Maybe not. I can almost assuredly say that we (the US) cannot afford to do it for another 5 years, especially with the coming collapse of our economy (which I believe is a certainty, no a possibility).
King of the Britons on March 3, 2009 at 12:52 PM
The Taliban wins the info war because they can lie faster than we can tell the truth. Lies are easy to manufacture while the truth is often hard to gather in one bundle.
Tantor on March 3, 2009 at 1:14 PM