David Brooks: Jindal’s speech was an insane nihilist disaster

posted at 1:16 pm on February 25, 2009 by Allahpundit

Another withering critique of last night’s fizzle, but unlike the rest of the punditocracy, it’s not the delivery he’s objecting to. There’s a serious question raised here that’ll soon be obscured by the mountain of sneering comments about RINOs below: How does the GOP adapt to a political climate in which government, at least momentarily, is seen less as the problem than as the solution? This is what I was getting at in writing about how the public wants to see action for action’s sake, even if they’re skeptical that it’ll work. Lowry’s on target about how Obama’s adapting — by trying to redefine the Great Society agenda as mere centrist “pragmatism” to make it palatable to Americans who dislike big government in theory but not so much in practice. Republicans can either stick to laissez faire and wait for the inevitable liberal overreach to push the country back to the right or, per Brooks (and Bill Kristol) they can start incorporating government solutions into their own platform. The danger of taking the first approach isn’t that we might have to wait a few years, it’s that if Obama succeeds in redefining the center, we might have to wait decades. In that sense, it’s like the amnesty debate: The politically useful thing to do is to pander to Hispanics by supporting it, the principled thing to do is to oppose it and enforce the law. Which course is correct if the latter means you’re out of power for ages and amnesty gets pushed through anyway?

Part of the problem is that the GOP’s done an abysmal job of marketing its alternatives to the stimulus. Dave Weigel compared it yesterday to McCain’s campaign strategy, aimed at winning the news cycle with stunts and memorable soundbites but badly losing the big-picture debate. It often does feel like they have no plan of their own — nihilism, as Brooks puts it — and there’s a reason for that:

During the stimulus debate, the strategist argued, Republicans had an actual alternative but were unable to direct much attention to it — in part because they were focusing so much of their rhetoric on the massive and unnecessary spending in the bill. The debate became a question of an up-or-down decision on the Obama/Democratic plan — not a choice between the Obama/Democratic plan and a Republican plan. “The coverage of the stimulus bill focused on the difference between the House and Senate versions,” the strategist told me, “which were basically two sides of the same coin.” The Republican role was limited to a) saying no to the Obama/Democratic bill, and b) having three moderates in the Senate approve of the bill as long as it offered a little less than what Democrats proposed. The idea that Republicans, mostly in the House, had an actual full-scale alternative, was lost. “On the Sunday talk shows, right after it passed, find me one person who mentioned the Republican alternative,” the strategist said.

So now Republicans want to try something new. They point to last year’s debate over energy, in which the GOP got the upper hand on the issue of drilling — so much so that majority Democrats were forced to retreat from their position. That, the strategist says, was the kind of clearly-articulated policy alternative that Republicans will be seeking to put forward today.

Better get cracking. That 61/26 gap leaves The One with an awful lot of daylight to run in.

Blowback

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Republicans can either stick to laissez faire and wait for the inevitable liberal overreach to push the country back to the right or, per Brooks (and Bill Kristol) they can start incorporating government solutions into their own platform. The danger of taking the first approach isn’t that we might have to wait a few years, it’s that if Obama succeeds in redefining the center, we might have to wait decades.

So what…. so we wait for decades if need be. I’m sick and tired of people treating politics like a damn football game… as if the endgame was simply to win elections. I don’t WANT the GOP to win elections if they are just going to implement marginally better policies. What’s the point? In the end, all we do is destroy our credibility of fiscal conservatism and defenders of liberty.

BPD on February 25, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Republican’s should direct their fire at how Obama and the dims are perverting the so called “recovery package” to reward their special interests like ACORN, Harry Reid’s “Mag Train” to Las Vegas to part fools with their money boondoggle, home squatting scofflaws, General Motors and Chrysler incompetent CEO’s and the UAW, illegal aliens, boondoggle energy projects instead of productive ones like nuclear, etc, etc, etc, while all the while burying the nation further in humongous debt and dependency on the Chinese and the middle east.

MB4 on February 25, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Patience, grasshopper.

All that Obama is proposing has been tried before. And ended disastrously.

We just have to wait for the inevitable.

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 1:53 PM

No thanks. I’m not going to hope for a terrorist attack and then an ensuing failure of government’s response afterwards.

If God Forbid, there was another attack on our soil, I hope Obama strikes back with ferocity.

Vincenzo on February 25, 2009 at 1:48 PM

I’m not hoping for an attack; I just believe that it is inevitable. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, so I lend some credence to Plugs Biden’s prediction that Obama’s inexperience will be tested by terrorists. We can only pray that his response will not be as tepid as it has been to all of the alpha male muscle flexing currently going on in the Middle East and Russia. Hell, even Putin warned us about pursuing a Socialist economic agenda, but continues to exert influence and pressure on U.S. interests in that part of the world. So, bury your head in the sand if you will, but economics is not going to be the defining issue of the Obama White House.

College Prof on February 25, 2009 at 1:53 PM

There’s a serious question raised here that’ll soon be obscured by the mountain of sneering comments about RINOs below: ….Republicans can either stick to laissez faire and wait for the inevitable liberal overreach to push the country back to the right or, per Brooks (and Bill Kristol) they can start incorporating government solutions into their own platform.

Oh, can it! There is sneering because it deserves sneering. You so clearly have a bias and interject it into almost every post. You hate Jindal. I don’t. Nor do I think one lousy speech means much.

You want to get rid of all the social conservatives. You’re constantly expounding on it. Most conservatives disagree. You want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It seems more like an attempt by the pundits to keep power than a position based on principle.

Granted, I read some of the comments on HA and think a number of the people are nuts, e.g., the family planning thread. However, you go too far into libertarian/donk territory for my comfort.

Blake on February 25, 2009 at 1:54 PM

I’m sorry, but I’m getting a little tired of all the hysteria regarding Bobby Jindals response last night. It wasn’t that horrible. Yes his delivery was stiff, but the message was still good. The sky is not falling over one speech.These after SOTU speeches never got this kind of vile attacks when the Dhimmis gave them. I know we all want to best Obama, but being a smooth talker isn’t going to get us there.

sandee on February 25, 2009 at 1:54 PM

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Sir, what you hate is anyone who is NOT willing to allow the Messiah to destroy America. Our Founders values, morals and Conservative principals of The Constitution and freedoms. So if I tick off morons, idiots and cult followers like you, I have done my job… Loser…

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 1:54 PM

We just have to wait for the inevitable.

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 1:53 PM

Just how long are you willing to wait. The Chinese said the same thing and waited 2 generations to start to see daylight.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 1:54 PM

The fact we refer to Republican economic policies as laissez-faire shows that we have lost the debate. Nobody, unless they are Paulists, really supports a true laissez-faire economic policy. The MSM has made laissez-faire synonomous with opposition to big government in era when big goverment has made a comeback with the public. Mainstream Republican economic policy relies on pulling a different set of levers then Democrats. This is hardly laissez-faire (= let them eat cake policy)

jerryofva on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

College Prof on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Yup. And don’t forget that Putin is playing this clown like a fiddle. It almost makes me respect the old KGB hand.

PimFortuynsGhost on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Brooks is a schizophrenic moron. We tried things his way and we lost.

echosyst on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Oh, can it! There is sneering because it deserves sneering. You so clearly have a bias and interject it into almost every post. You hate Jindal. I don’t. Nor do I think one lousy speech means much.

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Jindal believes in the power of the individual. The president of our many understandings believes in the power of the government. There was nothing nihilistic in Jindal’s speech. To say so is embarrassing to the speaker for his ignorance of the language and of public policy. David Brooks is just a Mannhattan liberal with Asperger’s seeking acceptance from the Power Elite that deigns to permit him in their club. His way is the way of accomodation, failure and defeat. His denunciation is a badge of honor.

Ted Torgerson on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Our pundits and so called Conservative comentators are IDIOTS AND TRAITORS to our future and America to praise The Messiah against the moral standings of freedom and The Constitution that Jindal expresses. Are we now, at this moment, at this junction, at this crossroads, going to embrace the Jindal vision, the Conservative vision of America… A proud, mighty, moral Country, with personal rights and freedoms, where hard work and effort are encouraged and rewarded… Or will we simply fold up our values, bow to The Messiah and fall in lock step with the cult of cradle to grave sameness… Where the morons and idiots that make poor choices, live lives of depravity, drugs, gangs, crime, welfare, abortion and moral decay are said to be the winners and the ones of value. The One and his followers have a strangle hold on the MSM, the Great Leader has spoken from on high, he will cure Cancer, calm the tides, make the Sun come out and make all the lazy, uninspired, deadbeats the new rulers of America.

Well freinds, if that’s the kind of America you want, go for it… As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord, we will continue to live a moral, ethical life… We will support Conservatives, speak out against the far left and The Messiah’s radical agenda… We will not lose faith in a just and strong Military, in our desire for personal freedoms, The Constitution and a proud America of work, sucess and reward.

For those of you that scoff at Jindal or Palin or heck, ANY Conservative, if you believe in The Messiah, if you want a gobmit handout, or welfare, or secured mortgage, or Socialized health care, I have a few words for you…

TRAITOR

ANTI-AMERICAN

SOCILIST

RADICAL

CULT FOLLOWER

LAZY

MORON

IDIOT

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM

I don’t give a rats @ss if he posted it or not before he is 100% spot on!

EagleClaw on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

indythinker on February 25, 2009 at 1:28 PM

Damn dude, take a chill pill. Arguments like that only prove you are as irrational as the idiots on the left paint you as.

I am a realist and I see the merits of what AP is saying. Whether we approve or not that is the political reality we live in today. We can choose to keep doing the exact same thing over and over again, but don’t be surprised when we get the exact same result. Below are a few things we conservatives can do to become a major party again.

1. Stop focusing completely on tax cuts as the only way to stimulate the economy. Every time conservatives mention tax cuts and reducing the capital gains tax we walk into a trap. The left is able to paint us as only caring about rich businessman who are out to screw the little guy. I suggest we focus on expanding a few government programs that encourage private growth.

2. Stop being 100% against immigration. The political make-up has changed in America. The coalition that Republicans have used in the past to gain power is no longer an option. Hispanics are now a major political player and we need to stop alienating them. Instead of focusing entirely on the border, start to look into tapping into the new immigrants conservative views on social issues. We should also start working on assimilation instead of exclusion and deportation.

3. Change our views on environmental issues. Republicans almost always come down on the wrong side of these arguments. I have my doubts about global warming, but I have no doubts about wanting less junk being put into the air. Reduce, reuse, recycle are worth doing.

These are a few things the conservative movement can do that would vastly change the political landscape, but they are not that difficult to do. Until we do change I doubt we will see conservative principles return to power in the near future.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

If God Forbid, there was another attack on our soil, I hope Obama strikes back with ferocity.

Vincenzo on February 25, 2009 at 1:48 PM

why? it would be OUR fault…specifically the racist oppressive TERROR of the BOOOSH dictatorship…

these poor insurgents are just victims of the white male power structure after all

we must understand their grievances and the reasons they hate us, after all its all our fault…

/sarc off

glad I don’t live in NYC or DC..and if they get hit, who cares? it’d just be the chickens coming home to roost..

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 1:54 PM

you figured that out all by yourself? shyt congratulations then. im glad you even managed to make the principles of the constitution the “conservative principles of the constitution” knowing full well conservatives have done just as much constitution shredding as anyone else. Im glad things are so clear cut for you, i really am…lord knows you and you’re “real american” brain couldnt handle the world any other way.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

We just got our asses kicked. May not be the best time for criticism, unless it’s criticism of the forces that chose McCain.

JiangxiDad on February 25, 2009 at 1:58 PM

You can tell Allah is wrong because he pretends that supporting amnesty is politically useful, even after McCain was crushed.

The Dean on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

http://www.cuial.com/right_mutiny.jpg

izoneguy on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

Even though I didn’t read his column, I’m gonna call Brooks as douche, traitor, and Obama fan. I’m not really interested in reflective critical thinking right now, I just want to be reactionary and call anyone who disagrees with my narrowing view of American politics a name. Douche. Traitor. Obama flack. Ad hominems are great. Attacking the messager while ignoring the message is even greater. The greatest of all…my fantasy world where I’m right (as is Rush, who is god), everyone is wrong, poll numbers are fraudulent, and Americans are stupid for voting for Obabenazimonster!

cornfedbubba on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

These are a few things the conservative movement can do that would vastly change the political landscape, but they are not that difficult to do. Until we do change I doubt we will see conservative principles return to power in the near future.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

we’ve tried that the last 8 years….its called being democrat-lite…doesn’t get us anywhere…mccain was the perfect messenger for that viewpoint..

loses ever time its tried..

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

We just got our asses kicked. May not be the best time for criticism, unless it’s criticism of the forces that chose McCain.

Okay, I take it back. Jindal’s speech last night was awesome. It totally turned the tide against the Obama.

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

gag

JiangxiDad on February 25, 2009 at 2:00 PM

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:51 PM

Follow your Leader to the end…

Raise taxes, shread the Military, kill Talk Radio, take our guns and call people that have played by the rules, worked hard and earned sucess nut jobs…

You won…

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 2:00 PM

So far the only real concrete physical indication of the Obama failure is the stock market continues to dive.
Saying some future doom and gloom is coming based on actions that have not even started to have an impact is tough to sell.

It is still early, Republicans must wait for more easily understood by the public evidence of the Obama failure he is creating. Saying it is going to be a failure is one thing, watching it happen and being impacted by it is another.

Obama is talking one way, the real world is going another.
People need to first see and understand that, then the emperor’s clothes will fall from Obama. It will take time.

albill on February 25, 2009 at 2:00 PM

R’s don’t have a leader and have a set of talking points that nibble at the edges of the current meme.

We are not well prepared for what is coming. CO2 regs. The Dems/Left and business are together. The R’s are at the margin.

Think of this as Epic Fail on the part of the R’s. They have handed the energy issue over to people who think they can run America with Windmills and solar arrays in Nevada.

Now I know the Pols are not the brightest kids on the block, but come on…can we do a little better????

r keller on February 25, 2009 at 2:01 PM

There’s a serious question raised here that’ll soon be obscured by the mountain of sneering comments about RINOs below: How does the GOP adapt to a political climate in which government, at least momentarily, is seen less as the problem than as the solution?

We need to use an ‘American Idol’ style election to pick our next Republican Presidential Candidate.
Good enough, Allah, or should I spout off about RINOS? I believe that RINO infestation is the biggest problem facing the Republican party.

HornetSting on February 25, 2009 at 2:01 PM

Simply lovely. A new low.

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:52 PM

I thought I had that record… Darn…

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

All of this will be forgotten in a moment when Obama has to deal with the first terrorist attack of his presidency. I have no doubt that it’s coming, and when it does, the economy will be the least of our worries. Obama has already let the thugs piss all over him, and he’s only been in office for a month. So, we’re all crying over the spendulus bill right now, but just wait for it…

College Prof on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

That’s my fear as well. And no, I am not hoping for it. But I know it’s coming. That uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach since Obama won is not because of the bad economy.

jewells45 on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

/sarc

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

Patience, grasshopper.

All that Obama is proposing has been tried before. And ended disastrously.

We just have to wait for the inevitable.

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 1:53 PM

Bingo. Sorry, I see you genso. Principles are principles. You have to be in the position to say, “We’ve been here all along; you chose to ignore us.”

Personal responsibility. Start there, and devise policies around it.

BTW: How come Obama’s health care reform ignore medical malpractice reform and drug-product liability reform? Create specialized courts for these matters, eliminate juries, and bring rational awards to the verdicts. Double the damages for reckless conduct, and triple the damages for intentional conduct. But get a grip on dealing with negligence.

Talk about a plague on the productivity of this country.

BuckeyeSam on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

Okay, I take it back. Jindal’s speech last night was awesome. It totally turned the tide against the Obama

It wasn’t supposed to. Add his voice to yours and mine.

JiangxiDad on February 25, 2009 at 2:03 PM

genso,
Obama will break us of our independent spirit or not. Certainly, we are looking at the possibility of a lost generation. But look at how quickly our country was able to respond to Carter, and Obama is Carter on steroids. If our education system and our media have so altered us that we will accept the misery, hardship and loss of freedom that will come, then how can we say we’re even worthy of reclaiming them?

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 2:03 PM

We do not need democrat light. It did not work so well the last time, did it?

Johan Klaus on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

it just so happens that there are things worth doing that dont have a profit motive attached to them. thats what government is for, doing that which doesnt have profit as a goal but indeed has american interests as a goal.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

So what in Obama’s porkulus falls into such a category that conservatives should abandon their general principle of smaller govt.?

thirteen28 on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

doing that which doesnt have profit as a goal but indeed has american interests as a goal.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

So there is not profit in paying off the mortgages and bad loans that were made to social-engineered and targeted “perferred” groups? How about the profit these people make at our expense….how about the profit made by Democrats in leveraging this pay for votes scam. While you are waiting for your welfare check, study the many meanings of profit.

dmann on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

That’s my fear as well. And no, I am not hoping for it. But I know it’s coming. That uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach since Obama won is not because of the bad economy.

jewells45 on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

obama will wave his holy hands and it’ll all be ok…he CARES more than you do remember??

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Allah, Jindal’s speech last night was not awesome. It was also not that horrible. It is too early to put all our eggs in one basket at this time. We shouldn’t think one speech can save us and turn all the voters back to the Conservative side. Having said that we must keep up the attacks on Obama’s socialist plans and show them for what they are.It looks like Obama’s facade is beginning to crack just a bit.We just have to keep hammering at it.

sandee on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Brooks mangled his point, but I think he has one.

Conservatives currently are communicating negative arguments (e.g., big government is the problem) more than positive solutions(e.g., small business is the key to growing our way out.

If Brooks thinks conservatives are nihilistic, then surely we have done a poor job at clarifying and promoting our principles in a positive way. How far we have fallen since Reagan!

topdog on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

I don’t think most attribute it to “hate”… most attribute it to stupidity!

jmell7 on February 25, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Okay, I take it back. Jindal’s speech last night was awesome. It totally turned the tide against the Obama.

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

there is no turning the tide against obama…you make the mistake that we are dealing with rational people here…

the democRAT voters left rationality long ago…obama is their savior…this is the faith of liberalism…

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:06 PM

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

Jindal has a lot of potential. I remember Bill Clinton’s 1988 speech on behalf of Dukakis. It was a disaster and a lot of people thought Clinton was toast afterwards. Things change.

That said, things won’t change for Jindal unless he gets better than he was last night.

Maybe it would help if more of us thought of Allahpundit as a sparring partner. He’ll hit you in the nose, but you’ll be a better fighter because of it.

Mr. D on February 25, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Allahpundit:

Can we ask who was your Republican primary pick (provided you had one)and who you like in the prospective Republican field?

It would be interesting and might help refocus the discourse.

BigD on February 25, 2009 at 2:06 PM

Allah-
I think we need to bring back Noneya….the sharks need fresh meat to feast on. They are nibbling at the hand that feeds….

HornetSting on February 25, 2009 at 2:06 PM

I thought I had that record… Darn…

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 2:02 PM

I know. The “I’d hit it” schtick doesn’t have the impact it once did. :(

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

About Allah, sometimes I agree with him and sometimes I don’t. And sometimes he infuriates the heck out of me. Regardless, I am always interested in his opinion. It’s childish for us to not be able to entertain other ways of looking at issues.

To Allah specifically, if you dropped some of the snarky jabs aimed at conservatives you disagree with, it would go a long way.

And everyone here ought to lay off the ad hominems. I don’t care if you insult the trolls, but not fellow conservatives.

flyfisher on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

it just so happens that there are things worth doing that dont have a profit motive attached to them. thats what government is for, doing that which doesnt have profit as a goal but indeed has american interests as a goal.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Do you mean, like giving nine hundred million to the Palestinians?

Johan Klaus on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

cornfedbubba on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

Yeah,me too. At some point, after you’ve explained yourself to your kids for the millionth time, you get to “because I said so.” I’m there too. Not willing any longer to “defend” or “prove” my point of view. I’m gonna “feel” it now, like the opposition.

JiangxiDad on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

How does the GOP adapt to a political climate in which government, at least momentarily, is seen less as the problem than as the solution?

1. Rational level – Counter their proposals with concrete proposals of our own, ones based on conservative/libertarian principles.
2. Emotional level – Develop a Frankfurt School of Conservatism, Culture and Political Psychology (maybe within the Heritage Foundation) with the mission of countering their emotional appeals with more compelling emotional appeals of our own, appeals that reinforce conservative values.

petefrt on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

sandee on February 25, 2009 at 2:04 PM

God killed 10 kittens during the speech. It was that bad.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

genso,
Obama will break us of our independent spirit or not. Certainly, we are looking at the possibility of a lost generation. But look at how quickly our country was able to respond to Carter, and Obama is Carter on steroids. If our education system and our media have so altered us that we will accept the misery, hardship and loss of freedom that will come, then how can we say we’re even worthy of reclaiming them?

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 2:03 PM

It seems to be the course we’re on, but if the Chinese and the Jews of 1930′s Germany has taught us anything, it should be that there is little value in letting it run its course.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Is Allahpundit a Kos planted zero
Or maybe just a fiddling Nero
But he sure has spunk
Oh bunk
The man’s a turncoat lout!
No, he’s just not one to with the talking points shout

I’m sure he’s flatulent and crass
Here, here, the man’s a horse’s ass
No, no, he’s neighborly and kind
But quite eclectically inclined
The secret simply will not keep
For Hotair’s losing sleep
It’s time to break the spell
Won’t someone bloody tell?
Who is Allahpundit, do tell?

Rumor has it he’s a New Yorker
He’s a reckless lawyer
I hear he carries several whips
He’s a sultan of Wall Street
with women at his fingertips
They say he’s nearly seven feet tall
And yet quite graceful……all in all
I’m told he waddles when he walks
And often twitches when he talks
Is he a dolt? No, he’s very deep!
Oh, Hotair’s losing sleep!
Who is Allahpundit?

Is he a comedian or a sneak?
Arrogant or bleak?
I hear he’s steely as you please
I hear he puts some very ill at ease
He may be shrewd
He may be crude
Ah well, it’s hard to tell

PercyB on February 25, 2009 at 2:09 PM

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 1:59 PM

We have not tried that before. Bush was never fiscally conservative and did try to pander to everyone. I thought he was excellent on foreign policy, but he dropped the ball big time on domestic issues. McCain’s problem was that he wanted to do amnesty which I don’t agree with. He also was all for the bail-outs because it was popular. Bail-outs were the worst idea ever and now we are seeing just the tip of the iceberg of how bad they are. I love capitalism and I don’t want the government to control the economy in any way. Using government to help steer the economy is now a necessary evil. We can either choose to have a little government planning now or lose a few more elections and have the whole hog.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Its not the message, it was the delivery. Remember over 50% of Americans are more impressed with pretty hope and change speeches than the actual content of said speech. We also need a leader who inspires, sadly that was not McCain. Speaking of which Bobby may have not hit a home run last night but compared to McCain’s speech following Obama clinching the lib nomination? Good God! I knew the election was lost that night.

EagleClaw on February 25, 2009 at 2:10 PM

Chinese and the Jews of 1930’s Germany has taught us anything, it should be that there is little value in letting it run its course.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:07 PM

Oh come on. I’m sick of this melodramatic crap that you used to read on the leftist sites. It’s so irritating and stupid.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:10 PM

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

He’s our best candidate on paper? Seriously? There’s gotta be somebody else.

But regardless, the point Ace made re: geekish candidates is correct. Charisma is not a dump stat in politics. Internal geekiness is one thing (Obama and his comic books, FFS) but the external variety gets you nowhere.

TheUnrepentantGeek on February 25, 2009 at 2:11 PM

doing that which doesnt have profit as a goal but indeed has american interests as a goal.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Profit is in the American interest. There is no greater “charity” in this world than a profitable business. A profitable business will provide its workers, and family, with the wealth to provide for food, shelter and clothing and so efficiently. To people feel good nowadays becauses many businesses are having a hard time making a profit? NO. When does society, as a whole, feel good? When the business cycle is good…when businesses are profitable.

WashJeff on February 25, 2009 at 2:12 PM

AP…Why don’t you see if you can’t get a job with keith oberstormenfuhrer or someone like yourself. You are a real downer and I really am tired of your being so nasty, to everyone except your stupid obamba. Bobby Jindal is one of the best and brightest in the GOP right now, and if he didn’t live up to your expectations, tuff stuff…So you bring on a big fat turncoat like David Brooks, who has been in the tank and is just now starting to think, ‘ duh, maybe I made a mistake?” Ya think. Get a life AP…or be honest about the msm more than anything else has helped to put us in this position, and agreeing with these filthy bas….. only keeps them going…..

clinker46 on February 25, 2009 at 2:12 PM

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 2:03 PM

He’s not going to break me. I’ve been wondering if there is any room in those compounds in Montana…

Otis B on February 25, 2009 at 2:13 PM

doing that which doesnt have profit as a goal but indeed has american interests as a goal.

ernesto on February 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM

You presume the two are separate and distinct.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:13 PM

Yup. And don’t forget that Putin is playing this clown like a fiddle. It almost makes me respect the old KGB hand.

PimFortuynsGhost on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

You aint seen nothing yet. As soon as I get Georgia bargained away from him I’ll go for Alabama and Mississippi. I’ll have him dancing around so much he will wish he was back doing that community organizing stuff in Chicago or maybe he can buy his old senate seat back.

PootyPoot on February 25, 2009 at 2:15 PM

Look, you couldn’t have gone on after the 1977 State of the Union predicting Jimmy Carter would be a disaster and not had pundits of the day (and in a few cases, the same pundits as today) slamming you for being nihilistic about our new leader, who as the time was being spun as the leader of the new non-racist South (because all the white racists were now Republican politicians). And you couldn’t have gotten a large number of swing voters to listen, because the president is new and those voters still want him to succeed, if for no other reason than to validate their own common sense in voting for him.

So as a speech on Feb. 24, 2009, it’s not going to sway that many people not already disposed to question Obama’s domestic policies and the glut of government spending. What it does do is to set down a marker for Jindal and Republicans to point back to a year or two from now if Obama’s policies have failed to make a dent in the economic problems. If that’s the case, odds are Brooks will be saying the same thing in the New York Times and on PBS that Jindal said last night, but will just pretend that nobody of any importance was talking about those dangers when all this stuff was passed to begin with.

jon1979 on February 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Ed Rollins was talking about Newt Gingrich in 1994 last night on CNN. Americans wanted action then, and it coincided with a pendulum swing back to the right. At the time, Americans said they wanted lower taxes, welfare reform and spending cuts. It is our country’s heritage.

Americans still admire ingenuity and self-reliance. Obama taps into that when he says “energy independence” versus “taxpayer-funded battery-operated green cars.”

The GOP should not go along with or compete with Dems on giveaways and programs but propose alternatives that truly advocate limited government. It is the only way they can gain back credibility. Just expose the Democrats as the looters and thieves they are and propose workable alternative solutions.

chunderroad on February 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

We have not tried that before. Bush was never fiscally conservative and did try to pander to everyone

sure we did…bush expanded government programs..as you suggested in:

I suggest we focus on expanding a few government programs that encourage private growth.

bush and mccain sure tried your second suggestion

2. Stop being 100% against immigration. The political make-up has changed in America. The coalition that Republicans have used in the past to gain power is no longer an option. Hispanics are now a major political player and we need to stop alienating them

all to no avail…didn’t the spanish vote for open-border juan mccain go down???

and mccain was a big cap and trade guy…

3. Change our views on environmental issues. Republicans almost always come down on the wrong side of these arguments. I have my doubts about global warming, but I have no doubts about wanting less junk being put into the air. Reduce, reuse, recycle are worth doing.

real republicans are on the RIGHT side of these arguments..environmentalism is just socialism.

the bottom line is mccain was your kinda guy…and he lost, big time…and he would have lost even bigger without palin..

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

Oh come on. I’m sick of this melodramatic crap that you used to read on the leftist sites. It’s so irritating and stupid.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:10 PM

What, then, do you see as the end game? Explain how, given the history of words by the Precedent, you see this as cyclical politics. Of course, in polite company, I suppose, socialism is not a word to be used and its effects are something that’s ok by you. I wonder if the same was said of those who wanted to fight to create this great country. But fine….tell me of your reality.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM

There’s a big difference between criticism and non stop bashing and ridicule. Your obvious need to demoralize conservatives get old.

Blake on February 25, 2009 at 2:18 PM

What’s with all the host-hate today?

AP here, Ed on another thread…relax…go watch TV Land or something…

ladyingray on February 25, 2009 at 2:19 PM

We can either choose to have a little government planning now or lose a few more elections and have the whole hog.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 2:10 PM

we’ve already got the whole hog, as we’ll all see in a few years…

so now conservatism has lost, people want the government to take care of them, to play god…age follows age, the game is up…decline and socialism ie tyranny await us…

all this talk about getting power back in 2010 or 2012 is a pipe dream…the democrats are counting the votes, and they’re not going to let that happen.

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:20 PM

So far the only real concrete physical indication of the Obama failure is the stock market continues to dive.

You have to ask – why is the stock market diving?

Obama does not give the business community a sense of confidence.
Obama might give confidence to the unions but union workers only
comprise 12.1% (1997) of the workforce.

The record number of layoffs are an indication that business
owners sense a shift away from a business friendly environment.
Thus Obama seeks to pit the employee against the business owner.
Most business’s were started long before Obama came on the scene,
and many will still be around long after Obama has retired.

Business owners have referred to this time as “Hurricane Obama” -
it blows in with destructive force, hangs around and ruins everything
and eventually it will be gone and the sun will shine again.

Left in “Hurricane Obama’s” wake will be years of devestating tax increases
that will be incurred to clean up the mess. Our childen will be working
overtime to clean up the mess as well.

Also left in “Hurricane Obama’s” wake will be white elephants and boondoggles to remind us that liberal policies wreak untold chaos
and havoc and therefore must be controlled with policies and procedures
that will prevent this from happening again.

izoneguy on February 25, 2009 at 2:20 PM

Change our views on environmental issues. Republicans almost always come down on the wrong side of these arguments.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Uh, no we don’t. You better take a look at the history of environmentalism. The most environmentally concerned administrations have been republican. As conservatives, we don’t buy into every dumbass idea that is supposed to be greenlighted because somebody says it helps the environment. Most of these so called projects are a waste of money.

Blake on February 25, 2009 at 2:22 PM

tell me of your reality.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:17 PM

I don’t see anyone going into gas chambers.

The goal isn’t the death of anyone. The goal is putting as many people as possible onto the government dole, so they are reliable voters. And taking as many people as possible off the tax rolls, so any talk of tax cuts is irrelevant.

That’s the game – it’s the same game for decades. They are looking at trying to get 51% of people getting money from government and/or 51% of people paying no taxes. That way the voices of 49% of people don’t matter.

Beyond that, your exercise in godwin is out of line.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

So far the only real concrete physical indication of the Obama failure is the stock market continues to dive.

Those who judge the tides by keeping an eye on a boat floating in the harbor are stupid. Its not just the market. Look at the bills that will be passed before Congress. Maybe there might be a bit of a trend developing here.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

This guy is a loser. Thinks big government is the answer? A functioning moron; can read and write, but a nonthinker.

cjs1943 on February 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

O/T
WTF! Is anyone else watching Fox…..Holder the Crackhead is speaking espanol…..What effin’ country have I landed in, Mexico? Speak English, a-hole! This P/C bs is the reason we are in the trouble we are in!

HornetSting on February 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

What’s with all the host-hate today?

AP here, Ed on another thread…relax…go watch TV Land or something…

ladyingray on February 25, 2009 at 2:19 PM

Nazis at TV Land stopped showing F-Troop, just like what happened in Germany in the 1930s.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:24 PM

There’s a big difference between criticism and non stop bashing and ridicule. Your obvious need to demoralize conservatives get old.

Blake on February 25, 2009 at 2:18 PM

I’m not seeing the non-stop bashing and ridicule.

AP plays devil’s advocate on a regular basis. That’s all. People get super defensive when someone criticizes a person they like.

TheUnrepentantGeek on February 25, 2009 at 2:24 PM

You aint seen nothing yet. As soon as I get Georgia bargained away from him I’ll go for Alabama and Mississippi. I’ll have him dancing around so much he will wish he was back doing that community organizing stuff in Chicago or maybe he can buy his old senate seat back.

PootyPoot on February 25, 2009 at 2:15 PM

hey don’t forget me!!! I want to be on the WINNING SIDE, comrade!!

my favorite gun is an AK!!!

power to the people!!

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:24 PM

Stop being 100% against immigration. The political make-up has changed in America.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 1:57 PM

Finally a forward thinking Gringo. I may let you keep your home.

Most of your House is in my pocket. Most all of your Senate is in my pocket. I have bought off or blackmailed almost all of them now. A bunch of pesos here, several women there, a young boy for a few of them, a little male attention for a certain Senator from New York, now Secretary of State. Her husband still neglects her something awful. Oh my Lord, the things she wants me to do to her. It makes my skin crawl, but it is for a good cause.

A little booze spread around. Alright a whole lot of gin for a certain Senator. Ay curumba, can he ever put it down. And his son, double ay curumba. That rehab stuff sure didn’t do him any good! I’m not even sure that he went. Telling a certain other Senator that I would get him and his girl friend Miss Lindsey a lot of media time, they love that so much. I have even offered him and his poco empalma a muchacho their own 24×7 TV station. You have no chance GRINGOS.

Your Grandfathers kept you from having to learn German or Japanese or be lamp shades. But YOU ARE NOT the men or women that they were, not even close.

Once we get our amnesty, we will all come to your country. We will all have at least 10 kids and in a generation we will overwhelm and deport most of you Gringos! Some of you, if you learn Spanish real well, we might let you stay to pick our lettuce or mow our lawns or take care of OUR children in what used to be your houses.

Those who don’t learn Spanish will be deported to Alaska. That is until Al Gore’s global warming heats things up and we want Alaska too, then we will deport you all to New Orleans. It will probably all be under water by then anyway. I hope you Gringos can swim, he, he, he. My bad!!!

So give it up and LEARN SPANISH! You should probably all buy Mexican flags too and fly them in your front yard and on your pickup trucks. If you already have an American flag there it is alright if you keep it, as long as you fly it upside down and below our great Mexican flag.

Now repeat after me – I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Mucho Grande Mexico, and to the Republic for which it use to stand, one nation under me, with everything for us, and nothing for you.

And remember Gringos,

APRENDER EL ESPANOL!!!

VinyFoxy on February 25, 2009 at 2:25 PM

Beyond that, your exercise in godwin is out of line.

lorien1973 on February 25, 2009 at 2:23 PM

Yes, well, your overreaction to my example notwithstanding (the point was not the deaths but the lack of resistance to being marginalized by thinking it will all turn out ok. You do know that it started that way, right?), letting it all take its course seems a pitiful response. But you go ahead and wait for this cycle to come back around.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

How does the GOP adapt to a political climate in which government, at least momentarily, is seen less as the problem than as the solution? This is what I was getting at in writing about how the public wants to see action for action’s sake, even if they’re skeptical that it’ll work.

It’s the right question to ask. I’ve heard Democrats complain that the stimulus ditched a lot of the proposed infrastructure spend in favor of wealth redistribution.

The GOP should make that point. The country needs more than a trillion dollars of infrastructure upgrades which would benefit future generations. It is the type of thing that government can do well.

dedalus on February 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

And remember Gringos,

APRENDER EL ESPANOL!!!

VinyFoxy on February 25, 2009 at 2:25 PM

someone else on the winning side!!

I like that…I’m trying to learn enough spanish to join La Eme…or Nuesta Familia…

Viva La Raza!!

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

I am coming in late on this, it appears, but why do conservatives have to “adapt” to a political climate? That certainly is a wishy washy way to approach getting an agenda noticed.
There needs to be an aggressive push, a shouting out, an opposition to this liberal, socialist crap. Call a spade a spade and quit pandering to the same constintuency of the liberals.

Vince on February 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

all this talk about getting power back in 2010 or 2012 is a pipe dream…the democrats are counting the votes, and they’re not going to let that happen.

If you actually work for a living then you must realize that Obama and his marry band of thieves want to pick you pockets. They will take you money weather you are rich or poor, left or right.

It is a fight not between the have & have nots but between employed and un-employed. There are many more people who work then do not work.

I think more people would rather work and if that is your choice then you must not vote for Obama and the democrats. Their goal is to create a permanent underclass of unemployable people that have no hope.

If America is to take care of the less fortunate then it must be unleashed to get back to work which means LESS government. Don’t let the 8% of Americans drag down the other 92%. If Obama is not thrown off the bus by 2010 then I would suggest that the real workers form another republic somewhere and start over.

izoneguy on February 25, 2009 at 2:29 PM

Most of your House is in my pocket. Most all of your Senate is in my pocket. I have bought off or blackmailed almost all of them now. A bunch of pesos here, several women there, a young boy for a few of them, a little male attention for a certain Senator from New York, now Secretary of State. Her husband still neglects her something awful. Oh my Lord, the things she wants me to do to her. It makes my skin crawl, but it is for a good cause.

A little booze spread around. Alright a whole lot of gin for a certain Senator. Ay curumba, can he ever put it down. And his son, double ay curumba. That rehab stuff sure didn’t do him any good! I’m not even sure that he went. Telling a certain other Senator that I would get him and his girl friend Miss Lindsey a lot of media time, they love that so much. I have even offered him and his poco empalma a muchacho their own 24×7 TV station. You have no chance GRINGOS.

no doubt!! using Sanford to spread the ‘walking around’ money to the democRATs was a stroke of genius!!!

I have no doubts the Zetas and the other gangs run more than a few towns here in ameriKKKa

Viva La Raza!

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:30 PM

There needs to be an aggressive push, a shouting out, an opposition to this liberal, socialist crap. Call a spade a spade and quit pandering to the same constintuency of the liberals.

Vince on February 25, 2009 at 2:28 PM

Exactly. What we have here, however, is a discussion about American Idol. And we say its only the left that can’t see reality.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:30 PM

AP plays devil’s advocate on a regular basis. That’s all. People get super defensive when someone criticizes a person they like.

TheUnrepentantGeek on February 25, 2009 at 2:24 PM

People are angry/furious/boiling over about Obama and his policies and then they see the “conservative” pundits bashing emerging leaders such as Jindal, Palin whoever over minor, cosmetic things.

Allahpundit baits his readers, no question about it. Right now, people aren’t in the mood for it.

BigD on February 25, 2009 at 2:31 PM

I don’t hate Jindal. On paper, he’s our best candidate right now. You guys simply can’t tolerate criticism of our side without attributing it to “hate.”

Allahpundit on February 25, 2009 at 1:56 PM
He’s our best candidate on paper? Seriously? There’s gotta be somebody else.

For Allahpundit, only one thing matters: Anybody but Palin.

First he propped up Mark Sanford. When Sanford failed with his flip-flop on the Porkulus, he went to Jindal. When that failed with his speech last night, he has to find somebody else. His “Jindal is our best candidate on paper” routine is just meant to buy some time until he finds another GOP candidate. As long as it is not Palin, of course.

Norwegian on February 25, 2009 at 2:32 PM

Your Grandfathers kept you from having to learn German or Japanese or be lamp shades. But YOU ARE NOT the men or women that they were, not even close.

VinyFoxy on February 25, 2009 at 2:25 PM

thats for damned sure!!!

right4life on February 25, 2009 at 2:33 PM

Blake on February 25, 2009 at 2:22 PM

I don’t mean buying into retarded ideas that will never work such as Obama’s desire for “green” energy and jobs. Using some common sense on some of the issues are worthy of some thought. Trying to recycle all of the things we can, choosing nuclear power over coal power, advocating mass transit vs more highways etc.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 2:34 PM

There are a number of good points in the comments, including those of people I ordinarily disagree with. If we could boil them down and keep them in the forefront, we might have a chance to get Osama Obama out of the game before he achieves all his destructive goals.

First, we can hang the “socialist” tag on Octobama until we’re blue in the face, but some tightly edited and simply worded facts about both his “plans” and the destruction they will cause would be more effective;

Lowering taxes is good, but we must also demand fiscal restraint and somehow show Joe Lunchbox that he is more likely to live well when free to save/spend his own money;

We should be critical of the Al Gore-inspired climate horsecrap, but the basics of conservation are indeed good, and we should embrace them;

The gloves must come off. Enough of that “respect the office” BS…when we have a POTUS who earns/deserves respect, give it. Until then, when we have an unqualified menace in the office, keep the pressure on;

Those who would be the next Republican leader should have their feet held to the fire. Our expectations must be high. Given today’s climate, principles must be presented in a way that attracts those who flocked to The Messiah only because he can deliver a good teleprompter reading. Losing “even though we’re right” is still losing, and we can’t afford another loss to the left;

Finally, I ascribe a certain amount of our last loss to the so-called “conservatives” who couldn’t accept the candidate who didn’t agree with everything they wanted and were loud and repetitive about it. I believed then, and believe now, that McCain could not have caused, and would not have caused, the damage we are already seeing from the child-president. If nothing else, McCain was sensitive enough to public opinion that some of his worst failings — e.g. immigration — could have been slapped down by a strong negative reaction, as they were. A campaign is not the time to nit-pick. Do that beforehand.

We can do this. But it means clear thinking and a willingness to accept what is good no matter what its source. It also means a gloves-off response to what is not good.

MrScribbler on February 25, 2009 at 2:35 PM

Piyush could rip Barry’s face off in a debate right now.

Christien on February 25, 2009 at 2:36 PM

One more thing: creeps like David Brooks should be ignored. They sow the seeds of our destruction, and should be treated accordingly.

MrScribbler on February 25, 2009 at 2:37 PM

VinyFoxy on February 25, 2009 at 2:25 PM

You just made me laugh my ass off. Your entire post was very humourus :) I am not advocating open borders or not securing the borders. I am saying that we need to try and incorporate the newly arrived immigrants into our power base instead of ceding them to the Democrats. If we continue on our current path that is exactly what we will be doing.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 2:37 PM

As long as it is not Palin, of course.

Norwegian on February 25, 2009 at 2:32 PM

How does Palin get to 270 electoral votes, assuming Obama doesn’t completely crater his approval ratings?

dedalus on February 25, 2009 at 2:37 PM

What this thread needs is a good enema.

Joe Bloggs on February 25, 2009 at 2:38 PM

What this thread needs is a good enema.

Joe Bloggs on February 25, 2009 at 2:38 PM

Don’t worry MadisonFauxConservative should be along shortly.

Mark Garnett on February 25, 2009 at 2:40 PM

People are angry/furious/boiling over about Obama and his policies and then they see the “conservative” pundits bashing emerging leaders such as Jindal, Palin whoever over minor, cosmetic things.

Allahpundit baits his readers, no question about it. Right now, people aren’t in the mood for it.

BigD on February 25, 2009 at 2:31 PM

This word “bashing” – it’s silly. It’s not like he’s saying Jindal’s mother dresses him funny. Jindal’s biggest critic at this point is friggin’ Ace. Are we going to put “conservative” in quotes for him too?

Does AP “bait” his readers? That really depends on how you view his role at Hot Air. He certainly posts stuff that’s provocative … but that’s kinda his job. If you’re dying for mainline conservative christian conventional wisdom, that’s Ed’s gig. They’re like conservative good cop and bad cop. AP is tough on conservatives because he wants the movement to succeed. After all, very little reflection and improvement are motivated by friendly pats on the back. And the GOP has a LOT of improvements to make right now. Happy talk is pointless and fruitless at the moment.

TheUnrepentantGeek on February 25, 2009 at 2:40 PM

You just made me laugh my ass off. Your entire post was very humourus :) I am not advocating open borders or not securing the borders. I am saying that we need to try and incorporate the newly arrived immigrants into our power base instead of ceding them to the Democrats. If we continue on our current path that is exactly what we will be doing.

txaggie on February 25, 2009 at 2:37 PM

Yes, lets play the left’s game. What are you willing to give those new “immigrants” to secure their votes? It better be good cause the left is willing to pay up. Whether we do it or they do it, it still increases government and weakens our society.

genso on February 25, 2009 at 2:40 PM

genso,
I don’t have a good answer for you. I think we’re royally f*cked. You bring up the Jews: 70% of them voted for Obama; now he’s sending a billion of their tax money to Hamas to engage in the destruction of Israel. You’d think that would cause some to rethink their views. This is just an example, and not meaning to point them out for special criticism. How far down do people have to see their 401Ks go before the extra $10/week from the tax cuts become a joke.

I see a country that has had two consecutive generations of unparalleled prosperity and so there’s been a loss of historical memory of what came before, and how similar policies caused widespread misery. Our schools are gripped by false utopianism, our children educated with bogus notions of fairness. It may be that we have to undergo a period of misery in order for us to relearn the lessons of the past. It may be we never relearn these lessons because our education system and media have become so corrupted.

blue13326 on February 25, 2009 at 2:41 PM

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