California debating marijuana legalization
posted at 12:40 pm on February 24, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
More than a decade ago, California legalized marijuana used for “medicinal” purposes, leading to the establishment of pot clubs and setting off a confrontation with the federal government. Now they want to end the medical pretense and make cannabis flat-out legal for personal use. The Assembly will take AB390 under consideration, supported by those who see an economic benefit from bringing the industry out of the shadows. Critics see a whopping hypocrisy from the nanny-staters:
Smoke weed – help the state?
Marijuana would be sold and taxed openly in California to adults 21 and older if legislation proposed Monday is signed into law.
Assemblyman Tom Ammiano, D-San Francisco, said his bill could generate big bucks for a cash-starved state while freeing law enforcement agencies to focus on worse crimes.
“I think there’s a mentality throughout the state and the country that this isn’t the highest priority – and that maybe we should start to reassess,” he said.
Critics counter that it makes no sense for a Legislature so concerned about health that it has restricted use of trans fats in restaurants to legalize the smoking of a potentially harmful drug.
That does make for a strange conflict. California’s legislature may label trans fats more dangerous than marijuana to the public. Regulating one while deregulating the other seems very hypocritical — and calls into question whether the state has the competence to understand personal choices better than the people making them. Given this example, I’d say no.
Moving beyond that to the issue itself, California and other states will have to make some hard choices on law-enforcement policies as monies start running low in a deep recession. The Wall Street Journal makes the same point in a column today by the former presidents of Brazil, Mexico and Colombia about the war on drugs in general. They wonder whether selective enforcement and prevention might prove more effective:
In this spirit, we propose a paradigm shift in drug policies based on three guiding principles: Reduce the harm caused by drugs, decrease drug consumption through education, and aggressively combat organized crime. To translate this new paradigm into action we must start by changing the status of addicts from drug buyers in the illegal market to patients cared for by the public-health system.
We also propose the careful evaluation, from a public-health standpoint, of the possibility of decriminalizing the possession of cannabis for personal use. Cannabis is by far the most widely used drug in Latin America, and we acknowledge that its consumption has an adverse impact on health. But the available empirical evidence shows that the hazards caused by cannabis are similar to the harm caused by alcohol or tobacco.
If we want to effectively curb drug use, we should look to the campaign against tobacco consumption. The success of this campaign illustrates the effectiveness of prevention campaigns based on clear language and arguments consistent with individual experience. Likewise, statements by former addicts about the dangers of drugs will be far more compelling to current users than threats of repression or virtuous exhortations against drug use.
Such educational campaigns must be targeted at youth, by far the largest contingent of users and of those killed in the drug wars. The campaigns should also stress each person’s responsibility toward the rising violence and corruption associated with the narcotics trade. By treating consumption as a matter of public health, we will enable police to focus their efforts on the critical issue: the fight against organized crime.
This sounds like double-speak. Besides decriminalizing marijuana, which would actually remove the profit potential of the criminal gangs, one cannot fight organized crime without fighting the actual crimes they commit — and the people with whom they commit them. Imagine a world in which prostitution was illegal but the customers break no laws in procuring sex for money. Can anyone imagine successful prosecutions of the hookers and pimps if the system explicitly allowed johns to walk free? It’s absurd.
So is the notion that we need to set up a public-health system for addicts. I sympathize with the libertarian argument of personal choice, more so for marijuana than most other substances, but don’t sell me personal choice and then demand a publicly-funded support system for it. If we have to pay for the latter, then keep throwing the users in prison. The people need to carry the burden and costs of their own personal choices without making it everyone else’s problem, or else we’re back at the original rationale for the war on drugs.
California has other motives than personal choice. They see a multibillion-dollar industry that exists below the radar of taxation, thanks to its illicit status. Legalizing pot means allowing transactions to become above-board and eligible for sales and income tax. I wonder how much of that will evaporate, though, once weed gets legalized. It’s easy to grow almost anywhere, especially in California, and most users would probably start growing their own supply once the deterrent of law enforcement gets removed.
I keep meaning to schedule John Holowach for my show to discuss his film High: The True Tale of American Marijuana. I’ll try to get him soon.










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If cannabis was legalized, price almost certainly would go down.
I say almost certainly, because it depends on how government set the taxes. In situations like this, it is critical that government not set the tax so high that black marketeers are encouraged to enter the market with the intent of undercutting the taxes. Thus, a $200/oz tax would probably be unsustainable, because the black market would, IMHO, be willing to grow and sell unlicensed for under that price. $50/oz, OTOH, would probably be a very sustainable price.
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 3:33 PM
Are you being deliberately obtuse, or are you really this stupid?
This isn’t about giving into kids’ desires; it is about removing a massive underground economy from the hands of organized crime, and putting it into the hands of legitimate, tax-paying, law-abiding citizens.
Now, what is it about organized crime that you find so attractive?
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 3:36 PM
I’ve only stated a fact. What are you doing? :)
Physical addiction has a specific medical definition and MJ isn’t physically addictive like alcohol and nicotine. But it is addictive in the same manner as chocolate or fast food. In other words, it can be habit forming. If you’ve smoked it for a while and stop, you might miss it, but there isn’t physical withdrawal.
You might feel a little sensation for the first few days that I liken to the sensation you get when a “tingle goes up your leg”, (which doesn’t do it justice but it’s the closest parallel I’ve ever come up with), but it’s very slight and actually somewhat pleasant, IMO.
I don’t think the definition of physical addiction includes pleasant side affects.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 3:37 PM
That’s funny, because I believe that anyone that willingly submits himself to “toking on a joint” is already a “weak-minded fool”.
dominigan on February 24, 2009 at 3:38 PM
No, it doesn’t, but your personal anecdote isn’t a substitute for fact either. I’m talking about physical discomfort. Maybe you never experienced it, but that doesn’t mean I’m making it up.
Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM
Really? You mean I can’t walk into any gas station in CA and buy a pack of cigarettes? You mean I can’t buy hundreds of cartons of cigarettes at any COSTCO in CA?
The idea that CA has essentially criminalized tobacco is absolute nonsense?
So, why are you trying to lie to the readers of this board?
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 3:41 PM
Pot might have a greater potential for dependence — I don’t think that’s clear, but let’s stipulate that it does — but the effects of alcohol dependence are for more severe. Somehow that has to factor into the analysis. We also have to consider binge drinking, which isn’t a behavior exclusive to alcoholism, but is responsible for a host of social problems.
If we’re just comparing the effects of the drugs, it’s too much a case of apples and oranges to decide anything definitively. Can we put a dollar value on the social costs of legalized alcohol sales and compare it to legalized marijuana sales? Whether or not most people can drink in moderation with no ill effects, the number of drunk driving accidents, the cost of insuring alcohol rehab, the cost of losing productivity to alcoholism (which employers would test for if they could), etc… are the same. What are the costs of legalized marijuana use? I would guess you also had students who smoked in moderation (or even regularly) and you never would have noticed the difference.
I’m doing math without any of the numbers, so it’s not worth much, but I think it’s possible, and even likely, that the social costs of legalization are less than the costs of prohibition.
RightOFLeft on February 24, 2009 at 3:43 PM
see, I feel the same way about someone who willingly imbibes such a lethal substance as ethyl alcohol. But i’ve seen what happens when government tries to control the behavior of weak-minded fools using the criminal law, and it inevitably ends up strengthening organized crime.
So, why are you in favor of strenghtening organized crime?
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 3:43 PM
What are they, then, and why aren’t the scientists that have studied MJ over the years aware of them?
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Neil Boortz in his book Somebody’s Gotta Say It quotes a study that shows that enforcement is the most expensive way to combat drug addiction (i.e., jail time, raids, arrests, etc.). The least expensive method? Treatment. I don’t like it either, but if we’re going to talk about the most financially logical choice, it’s treatment not enforcement.
intricate3 on February 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM
I think it makes them a great deal of money. It’s a staple good; the bread and butter of the drug trade. It’s cheap to make, and thanks to a virtual monopoly in the neighborhoods where it’s sold, they can sell it at a high price. I’m not saying it accounts for even the majority of a gang’s income, but it’s a a big enough source that it would seriously damage their ability to finance their other operations if it was removed.
Give the gangs some competition from farms in the midwest that are scraping by on corn and soy, my money is on the licensed farmers to come out on top.
RightOFLeft on February 24, 2009 at 3:50 PM
If you provide legitimate and objective scientific evidence then I’ll believe you. But 20 years ago I read what I believe is still the most comprehensive scientific research into Marijuana, which surprisingly was funded by the federal government, and they concluded that it wasn’t physically addictive.
The reason that this old study is still the most comprehensive, I believe, is because their findings, that MJ is relatively harmless to adults, (but not to children), caused the government to stop funding studies which they knew would contradict their own Reefer Madness propaganda.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 3:51 PM
I’m just not naive to think that they’ll suddenly disappear like some people seem to believe.
The current dealers ALREADY break the law. What makes you think they won’t double-deal under the table, or try to be respectable after getting a license? It’s not like they’re the most reputable people to start with.
dominigan on February 24, 2009 at 3:53 PM
I agree with you on that, at least. I think the answer is that the government is more interested in an excuse to increase taxes than they are in reducing smoking.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 3:54 PM
What makes you think that it won’t still be about “organized” crime?
This is what I have said, you disagree.
I don’t see any value of placing another recreational drug on the market. Alcohol already takes it’s toll, pot will just add to it. Tens of thousands are killed on the highway by alcoholics, I don’t want to add to that with more potheads.
You disagree, you think an open market will lesson the effect, I think it will increase…
Why get nasty about it…maybe it’s the drugs…you should lay off them, I though pot made you mellow.
right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 3:56 PM
They’ll be significantly marginalized, though.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 3:58 PM
One of the most naive posting I have read…
right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 3:58 PM
…Also, I’d make the argument that competition will just push organized crime and dealers to really start pushing the harder stuff to make up for what they may lose by legalizing pot.
dominigan on February 24, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Watch out for an obesity epidemic from all those stoners with the munchies.
becki51758 on February 24, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Monopolies on pot? Maybe in some areas, but because it’s so easy to make, it just seems doubtful at best. And it’s always been very cheap, much cheaper than trying to get drunk.
Appreciate it, but I’d be lying if I said I still had studies like that on this computer. Were I to find any now, it would just be through a Google search I’d perform now rather than material I’ve read before and since lost.
I’m not trying to argue that it’s dangerously physically addictive. Unlike alcohol, going cold turkey can’t kill you. In fact, THC by itself won’t kill you.
I just don’t want to whitewash the issue either. We get upset at the government for lying or being misleading but often legalization proponents are just as dishonest. This is an issue that deserves thoughtful and honest debate.
Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 3:59 PM
I know how you feel. I tried to find some research to bolster my argument in an earlier thread on this topic and had a hell of a time finding anything. Part of the problem is that the Internet is filled with propaganda from both sides of the argument. The second part is that the government has done it’s best to quell objective scientific research on MJ over the decades.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 4:02 PM
No they won’t. You seem to think that organized crime will just roll over. That’s not how they work.
If anything, legalizing pot will only cause them to start encouraging the harder stuff while dealing pot under the table. Is this the situation you want?
dominigan on February 24, 2009 at 4:03 PM
It seems like California is opening the door for those Mexican drug lords who are killing people right and left.
This is an awful idea.
becki51758 on February 24, 2009 at 4:06 PM
I agree with you there, and I don’t doubt that you honestly believe your claim about the physical addictiveness.
At any rate, I’m out of time to spend on this thread so; until next time.
FloatingRock on February 24, 2009 at 4:06 PM
Legalize It.
Don’t Criticize It.
And I Will Advertise It.
Tzetzes on February 24, 2009 at 4:08 PM
Have a good day. I’m glad we could discuss this amicably.
Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 4:09 PM
“You seem to think that organized crime will just roll over. That’s not how they work.”
You mean the mob didn’t go out of business the day prohibition was revoked?
The outlaw dope pushers will always be three steps ahead of the government dope pushers, anyone thinking that this will diminish crime or violence with regards to drugs is severely delusional.
And the government could lose money at any proposition, so the notion that the government peddling dope will result in a net gain to the treasury, is another likely misconception, particularly when you add in all the additional unemployed losers this is going to generate.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:13 PM
Peter Tosh weighs in, super.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:14 PM
With a 60 billion dollar deficit, and every other problem under the sun, it’s good that they’re tackling the really important things first like marijuana freedom.
Canadian P.M. Harper was interviewed last night and asked about oil from Alberta tar sands, and whether he was concerned about CA’s refusal to purchase any because they don’t like the carbon footprint. Harper gave a wry smile and gently reminded the freaks that the US will be importing Canadian oil, tar sands and otherwise, for a long time to come. California isn’t worth serious consideration any longer. No offense intended. It’s a glorious place, but lost.
JiangxiDad on February 24, 2009 at 4:15 PM
They have oil…if they want it.
They have the ability to place an area like Las Vegas and put in gambling…if they want it.
The can legalize pot…if they want it.
They can cut spending…but they won’t want it.
right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 4:22 PM
The ignorance of basic economics among some self-described conservatives sometimes shocks me.
First, let us look at history. During the first Prohibition, the only people who dealt in ethyl alcohol were, by definition, criminals, and almost exclusively members of criminal organizations. nowadays, with legal alcohol, how much of the market is operated by organized crime? Certainly, there are some people operating stills or smuggling untaxed liquor, but the vast majority (>99.9%) are legitimate, tax-paying, law-abiding citizens. Forget all other other benefits of repeal for now; that, in and of itself, is a good thing.
Now let us consider cannabis prohibition. You ask:
Tell me what exactly economic advantage they would have to “double-deal” under the table (whatever that nonsense phrase means). Would they for some reason be able to produce pot cheaper than legitimate growers/sellers? Of course not. Why would legitimate consumers deal in the black market, when they have legitimate sources that can supply their pot demand for an equal or lower price?
You also ask:
Whoa, somehow, you portray people being more respectable as a bad thing. I would think we would want to encourage people to try to be more respectable. Of course, I don’t put forth arguments that favor organized crime, so that could just be me.
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Exactly, give it back to the reconquistas in Mexico. They can have it.
Half of the people belong there anyway, in 20 years it will be indistinguishable from the rest of the tar pit that is Mexico and it would get rid of a whole lot of Democrats to boot.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Hahahahaha..it’s ferrrrrr the children. Hey, the Dems could use new speechwriters to tell us we don’t care about the children if you don’t support S-Chip, Gun Control, Government Run Health Care, smoking bans, the bailouts, sex education, evolution, etc. I figure you could use your issue diversion tactics to those areas of government intervention as well. The Children, if we are to believe our Politicians are the biggest fascists/socialists that exist because they apparently need government intervention into everything to survive.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Your argument fails in that the pot growers will stop growing pot.
Which is exactly what happened post-prohibition. Of course the bootleggers stopped making bathtub gin and other crap. There was no profit.
But there is profit to be had in heroin, cocaine, meth, etc., all of which will not be legal and all of which will remain in demand, whether pot is legal or not.
The criminal drug pushers will not be going away, they’ll just be producing other illegal drugs. So legalizing it won’t solve a damn thing, particularly when you consider California’s government is so incompetent, they’ll lose money selling dope.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:27 PM
But they don’t carry the burdens and costs of their own personal choices. Their friends and family carry that. I needed to pay for my kid’s detox. He didn’t, and couldn’t. I had to put up with the irrational hatred from him as his habit made him go schizo.
He was caught IN A CAR smoking the stuff. The car was registered to me. I would have paid the price, not him, had he gone road-rage in his drug-induced state. And given how he behaved when high, I have no doubt that’s where it would have eventually gone.
Thank heavens when the end came the police shoved him into the drunk tank so he could see firsthand all the other druggies crashing down. That’s when his decision to stop came — seeing where he would be in a few years of sixteen units attempted, zero units completed because it was so fun being high.
Keeping it legal and rare won’t work — keeping it illegal will keep it even rarer, and hopefully fewer kids will be victimized as a result.
unclesmrgol on February 24, 2009 at 4:32 PM
There are also areas that the local police force knowingly create monopolies. There was even one mayor in an adjacent town that actually ran the operation within his family while taking out his competition through “legal” means. Then you have the cops that shake down the dealers for kickbacks. Oh and there’s always the strange coincidence of the confiscated weight being reported lower than the actual, of course the defendant isn’t going to stand up and say that in court because it would just raise his sentence but I have spoke to people who were convicted and stated that that happened.
Illegal drugs create many profit centers for people with more power than the average citizens. Also jail is a good business, you have cases like that one recently in PA where the judges got kickbacks for sending kids to juvie. Funny one of those PA judges that got into trouble was always rumored to smuggle coke on the side. Drugs are money, especially if you work in “law” enforcement.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:34 PM
Yes, I’ve been thinking about the whole secession thing. Seems to have a few constitutional issues :)
But, not sure about selling or giving away a state. I had the idea with respect to Maine. Give it/sell it to Canada. Perhaps we can sell CA to Mexico, or China. Far fetched? I’d say we consider selling Alaska and Hawaii before they leave on their own accord.
Actually, I’d like to buy CA as a new nation for traditional Americans if we can get it delivered empty and with a reasonable closing date–let’s say by 2010, in time for the school year :)
JiangxiDad on February 24, 2009 at 4:36 PM
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 3:43 PM
So someone who enjoys sipping on a 18 year old scotch is a weak minded fool and inferior to a pothead?
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 4:38 PM
I would FINALLY have a reason to go back to Cali.
Hurricanes on February 24, 2009 at 4:39 PM
If California gets purchased, it’s going to be filled with Chinese, not Americans.
On the bright side, that would probably mean the end of the Democrat Party, to be replaced by the People’s Democrat Party.
I mean, whether we’re governed by Barack Obama or New Number 1 Yanqi Governor Chin Wong, what’s really the difference?
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Dealers are only dealers now because they can reap high profit margins in the black market. Once it is no longer a black market, those dealers will go out of business overnight and have to rely on their other profit centers, how are they going to compete with Wal-Mart or another legitimate investor, unless taxes get too high, you have that right now with cigarettes from Delaware going up and down the Amtrak corridor.
The biggest blow to gangsters was the end of prohibition, they did not continue to be alcohol distributors after it was legalized. Also beer distributors don’t shoot each other since prohibition has been lifted.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Many of them started dealing drugs.
Which is what these guys will do, unless we legalize all drugs.
Which isn’t going to happen.
So by lowering the price of marijuana, all you will do is to encourage many of the suppliers into expanding their cocaine, heroin and meth businesses, which will result in lower prices for all three.
It’s not like they’re going to say “we’re out of the pot business, let’s take up tomato growing”. They’ll find something else to sell and it ain’t gonna be vegetables.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:45 PM
How would the government control something you could grow in your backyard……….?
Meh……..
Seven Percent Solution on February 24, 2009 at 4:46 PM
You can’t just go to absolutes here, “won’t solve a damn thing” is far too sweeping. It’s not like pot demand is going to be transferred to other drugs. I would imagine out of all the illegal drugs that has the highest demand, so that would take away a large part of the market. In all likelyhood, while it would not eliminate all dealers, it would greatly reduce their revenue and most likely their numbers, just like the gangsters of the prohibition years, they did not go away, we just eliminated their biggest cash cow.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Their high prices are the reasons that cocaine and meth even exists. We went from Freud eating coca leaves and having it as an additive in Cola to powder and crack because of transport concerns, prohibition makes the drugs more expensive and dangerous. Meth was born out of these same factors, price and transport.
Just like if you legalized pot, pot would become safer because less people would smoke it, they would use it in cooking, topical sprays, etc.
This is all linked to price and the amount of space that the product requires.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:50 PM
I don’t think you can discount that. Once you get people into getting high (and more people will smoke dope if it is legalized), who is to say more people won’t want to get strong dope than will be legal or to try other drugs to get an even better high?
And drug pushers market. They give free samples to weak minded individuals in order to get them hooked.
Maybe legalization would solve some problems, but it will likely cause more problems, many of which we can’t even anticipate.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:52 PM
Why all the hypocrisy on the part of the commenters who were cheering on the 10th amendment just earler today? I believe in conservative principles, by the way, I just believe that consistency should be one of them. And not that “I can find a long round about way of connecting my disparate views via something my pastor said sort of consistency.”
abobo on February 24, 2009 at 4:53 PM
I’m not saying that California CAN’T legalize it, I’m saying they shouldn’t.
But if they do embark on such a dangerous course, I hope they’re smart enough to do some test markets.
Legalize it in L.A. only and see what happens. See if it causes more problems than it solves and see if the tax revenue it generates is more than the increased social spending that results.
See if legalizing it frees up law enforcement to concentrate on bigger problems or if it causes more money to be spent on law enforcement.
Federalism is a good thing and I’m all for it. If California wants to go down this road, I’m just not sure that they will be objective about it, but I’m sure other states will take note.
NoDonkey on February 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM
It’s amazing how many conservatives and libertarians are suddenly in favor of more taxation…
Thats what’s wrong with a slippery slope – you can’t stop the decline. When we legalize marijuana we’ll start hearing about legalizing ecstasy, heroin, peyote, etc. More junk science will be pushed out and used as a talking point by more people intent on getting high. How can you legally stop at marijuana? If you legalize one drug whose sole purpose is to get high, has immediate and long lasting health risks, and impairs thought processes and motor functions no matter the amount taken what legal grounds are their to keep others illegal? Why can’t I take cocaine? Why can’t Ed trip out on LSD? There is no legal difference between marijuana and the others.
chicagojedi on February 24, 2009 at 4:57 PM
What a dopey thread.
baldilocks on February 24, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Obviously there will be some tradeoff, and by “more problems” I hope you mean “new problems” because I think that the good outweigh the bad on this, especially if you take a headcount of nonviolent offenders that we pay room/board, three meals a day, education, etc. in jail for this drug, let alone the morality of taking their freedom over a plant.
And I think whenever we can eliminate a big black market cash cow, overall we make ourselves safer, richer, and more humane.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Those others used to include alcohol, which by the way has caused hundreds of thousands of vehicular deaths and is involved in over 85% of all domestic violence and date rape icidents, And thats based on reported numbers from the F.O.P.- a cop union.
abobo on February 24, 2009 at 5:02 PM
None of what is going on in California will change the Federal Laws.
Jerricho68 on February 24, 2009 at 5:06 PM
I agree with that statement, everytime I hear “legalize and tax the sh!t out of it” I roll my eyes. Of course some of these are also the same people that will bitch about the cigarette taxes, but that is a vice they partake in.
All of these taxes are crazy, we see the slippery slope happening with food and soda, just wait until your vice of choice gets taxed like my cigarettes or someone in Cali’s pot, maybe they will speak a different tune.
And they don’t even need to raise taxes to increase tax money to spend, just think of all the money they will save at not housing nonviolent pot offenders.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 5:07 PM
I guess I am late to the party, busy working so that I could pay off my own mortgage :). Anyhoo, saw a lot of views on this thread, and I agree with the libertarian view that we should let people choose what kind of life they want to lead, as long as they do not hurt/harm others.
Absent concrete scientific proof to unequivocally conclude that marijuana is more addictive that C2H5OH or tobacco, I don’t see what the issue here is. In fact, it can bring in the state a lot of money in taxes (similar to cigarettes and booze), so it’s a win-win on all fronts.
Also, to those who argue that it will make it easier for the kids to get this : give me a break. I have been volunteering for a few years to give school kids after-hours tuition, and I can say with certainty that if a 16 year old wants marijuana right now, they can get it without breaking any sweat – irrespective of what school district you are in.
peter_griffin on February 24, 2009 at 5:08 PM
I’m not for or against the legalizing of marijuana but here’s something about the issue that isn’t addressed often:
What once was a substance grown by locals has become a Mexican Mafia controlled industry. Ask some of the law enforcement officers involved in search and destroy missions here in California and you will find that over the last few years, the industry has become much larger and is a hugh money maker for the Mafia who controls the entire process. Pot smokers are supporting alot of the unrest in Mexico today.
If marijuana was to be legalized, not just de-criminalized, taxed, and put under the FDA or something while letting someone like Philip Morris grow it, marijuana could be part of the stimulus package!
JeffVader on February 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM
I think the topic of marijuana’s physical addiction is not resolved and still under study with some evidence suggesting that there is a physical component to the dependency — why that should enter into the argument over legalization is not clear to me. As the article I quoted earlier points out, many dangerous drugs have minimal physical withdrawal symptoms and others have proven pharmacological remedies to ease withdrawal, that does not make them less dangerous.
In terms of marijuana and withdrawal, here’s one study I found that supports the idea that the dependence is more than psychological.
The habit-forming nature of getting high on marijuana, particularly as compared to using alcohol to get drunk, does not seem to be in dispute — marijuana is more habit-forming than alcohol (unless you are genetically-predisposed to alcoholism).
At the end of the day, I don’t really think the central issue is why (physical or psychological) people become dependent on drugs, but what the effects are of those drugs are on the user. Certainly, if a drug is more habit-forming, as marijuana is, it is more important that society think very carefully before encouraging its use through legalization. But the key thing is how impaired its users are and how long those effects last.
From what I’ve seen in the scientific literature, marijuana does impair decision-making and motor control. Whether or not that fact alone means it should be illegal is a separate issue.
Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM
In my college days I worked up a tolerance against the effects of alcohol. (but that was when I drank anything)
Now I don’t drink beer very often. But I like a good quality beer like Guinness once in awhile. One drink usually doesn’t effect me but sometimes I feel its affect. I no longer enjoy the high from alcohol. I don’t like losing any bit of control. I make enough mistakes as it is and don’t need anything to accelerate the process.
One difference from alcohol and marijuana is that I can have a drink without it affecting another. Cigarettes and marijuana are not like this. Second hand smoke truly effects others.
My concerns about legalizing marijuana.
1) Second hand smoke.
2) Duration of the high.
3) The nation has been slowly kicking the cigarette habit for years. We don’t need another vice.
I’m for doctor prescribed legalization for legitimate cases and that’s all and not with federal dollars. If California thinks life is better getting high, not with my Maryland money.
shick on February 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Yes, but it may help plenty of liberals understand the concept of Federalism and why the Feds shouldn’t be clothing, feeding, educating, drug enforcing, gun enforcing, etc. everyone at the federal level.
Also if Cali legalizes it, the feds won’t be able to enforce their laws there without consequence. The DEA has a good business going on, they even have hour long commercials (snuff films) on Spike TV, do they really want that much backlash when they have 49 other states to plunder?
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Marijuana doesn’t cause physical addiction. There’s no need to publicly supported rehabs. Also legalizing drugs for the purpose of increasing the state’s revenue is wrong.
Make no mistake, I’m all for total legalization of marijuana, medical or not. However, much like there’s a purely libertarian argument against state owned casinos or state run lotteries, there’s an argument in defense of the idea that the harm of an increased government spending may outweigh the benefit of legalization.
Legalize it and tax at the rate that the food is taxed. Plain and simple.
radiofreevillage on February 24, 2009 at 5:11 PM
Oh, a cop union, I just thought they sold “get out of speeding ticket” stickers.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 5:14 PM
There wouldn’t be anything to tax since pot is so easy to grow for personal use and/or “trade” with “friends”.
Of course, potheads are probably too stupid and lazy to grow their own $hit. So I guess there would be a few stores here and there.
nottakingsides on February 24, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Okay, if you haven’t ever smoked pot and know that you can function so much more effectively than when drinking alcohol, then sit out of this discussion if your point is the harmful effects of pot smoking. I smoked heavily in college, when pot was $20/oz, but graduated with 3.6 GPA. (I could have done better, but I suck at Chemistry and Calculus. That’s why I now teach English in a major university.) I smoked for a long time after that, until I had children, and other than the fact that I miss it from time to time, I have had no adverse psychological or physical effects from its use. Most of my college friends are in the same situation. We’re now 50-something, hold responsible jobs, have raised families, have grandchildren, and we pay our mortgages on time. So, someone remind me of the problem. I dare say that there are many more of my kind than those who moved on to harder drugs or became alcoholics. Pot smoking is habit forming because it feels really good to be high, but it is not physically addicting. I had a much harder time giving up cigarettes than I did marijuana. So, if we are going to have a debate about pot, let’s have an honest one. It is less harmful than alcohol or even prescription painkillers, and probably not as harmful as cigarettes (there have been no real longitudinal studies that I know of since it’s illegal). I was able to function quite capably for 15 years while I smoked pot, and I can still function 20 years later. Okay, now if you have objections, please feel free to let me have it.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:28 PM
I think attempts to draw conclusions about the relative “dangers” of marijuana and alcoholism based on statistics like alcohol-related car accidents is problematic.
First, you have to consider the numbers in terms of “opportunities” to drive under the influence:
— Source, Regular marijuana use increases risk of hepatitis C-related liver damage, Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology, 2008
I haven’t found the relative percentage for alcohol users, but I did find this, suggesting alcohol users far outnumber illicit drug users:
Then, you have to consider the fact that bars are legal and, regrettably, most people drive to bars. Marijuana, being illegal, is usually consumed in people’s homes.
Finally, it is probably worth mentioning that one of the largest populations of regular pot users, college students, often don’t even own cars and may even work/live/eat/play on one very restricted area (the college campus).
So I really don’t think you can conclude anything from the drunk driving statistics.
Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 5:28 PM
Legalize It.
Don’t Criticize It.
And I Will Advertise It.
Well said. I see far fewer problems with legal pot than booze. Drunks cause all sorts of problems from assualt to lord knows what. I’ve never seen an angry stoner. They are too busy playing video games and munching out.
Ease up!
Dave
Dave M on February 24, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Cute. You forgot your /sarc tag.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:30 PM
You can make your own bread too. Or do you buy it?
TheUnrepentantGeek on February 24, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Umm your kidding right… Paranoia, loss of short term memory, munchies? Unless of course your on chemo and that is part of the Pharmacokinetic/Pharmacodynamic effects your looking for.
Quick tip: Almost all drugs legal or otherwise have side effects. The only mitigating factor is the dose dependence on PK/PD
Bunsin on February 24, 2009 at 5:33 PM
The war on drugs is a racket. Marijuana is far less damaging than alcohol. It’s absurd that we continue to lock people for smoking grass.
jonezee on February 24, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Well, with that logic I can see why you did poorly in science. (Trust me, I was a college biophysics professor.)
Hey, let’s make all of our policy decisions based on anecdotal evidence from uncontrolled studies rather than based on objective facts.
Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 5:35 PM
I am neither stupid nor lazy, nor was I when I was smoking pot. Don’t make inane comments such that you sound as stupid as those you are accusing. If you have never smoked pot, you are probably not qualified to make remarks about its effects. In fact, if my brother had not had pot while he was suffering from cancer, he probably would not have survived the 2 1/2 years that he did. It was the only thing that enabled him to eat after chemo since the synthetic stuff they gave him didn’t work. My dad, who was a cop, even went out and bought it for him so that he could survive longer. There are those of us who are grateful for cannabis and see it as something that is useful and effective. Besides, consider all of the products that can be made from the plant parts. There is probably a biofuel in there somewhere.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Yeah, I think “people will just grow themselves” is probably the worst argument ever. They really have no idea what goes in to cultivating weed. Do they think someone will say “Gee, I really want to get high. I suppose I better plant this seed, make sure that the soil/hydroponics system has the proper amount of light and nitrogen content during the vegetative stage, and after about a month and half switch over to a potassium and phosphorus fertiziler during the blooming phase. After another month and a half or so I suppose I will painstakingly harvest the buds, and spend countless hours trimming the leaves from them. After that, I will let the buds hang in the dark to dry them out for a week or a week and half or so. Then I’ll just light up.”
People aren’t going to do that. They’ll skip that crap and just get it from legal sources. It’s not like watering a fern in your living room. It’s a ton of hard work.
justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 5:39 PM
If all of the Californians got stoned how would you know?
Fogpig on February 24, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Oil production, renewable resources (forest products), Farming for food, manufacturing (aerospace) (electronics), all equal, bad, bad, bad.
Taxes from immoral behavior, (condoning perversity), casinos, betting horse races, cannabis (gateway drugs) and every kind of illegal alien magnet all equal, good, good, good.
California, the doob state, its whats for dinner.
Speakup on February 24, 2009 at 5:40 PM
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:28 PM
The ol “if you never used it, you can’t comment” argument. Yep, sounds like a typical pothead professor.
The “Look, it never did anything to me so it’s alright” argument is there as well. Another classic.
Hey, let’s make all of our policy decisions based on anecdotal evidence from uncontrolled studies rather than based on objective facts.
Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 5:35 PM
‘zactly.
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 5:41 PM
So, pick apart my logic rather than attacking my anecdote. If there are millions of us who smoked pot in college and are now functioning members of society, what’s the problem? If there truly are “objective facts” about marijuana use, rather than the “Reefer Madness” type “evidence,” then bring it on. Since it’s been illegal for so many years (and the story of how that came to be is a whole other discussion), how are there any objective studies?
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Oh, come on, Ed! I’d bet the equity in my house that half or more of your readers are cows, a la Rush Limbaugh, who stuff their holes daily with fat and cholesterol. And then, when their left arms go numb, they waddle off to the ER, where, one way or another — through higher insurance premiums or through higher taxes — the rest of us pick up the tab.
If can pay for one set of vices, we can pay for another.
paul006 on February 24, 2009 at 5:43 PM
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Oh, and the “my family member used it for chemo and it saved his life” combined with the “family member in a position of authority bought it” to give your comments just the right seasoning of logic (fallacy).
Add to that the “just look at the other benefits of what hemp can give the world” and we’ve encapsualted in two comments all the ‘positives’ of pot.
After reading your words, we’d be stupid not to all be smoking the stuff!
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 5:45 PM
So someone who enjoys
sippinggetting high on a 18 year old scotch is a weak minded fool and inferior to a pothead?There you go… fixed it for you.
And yes, I would say someone who enjoys getting high on a substance as toxic as ethyl alcohol is more weak-minded than someone who enjoys getting high on something as nontoxic as cannabis.
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 5:46 PM
What do you know…heavy pot smoker sucked in the hard courses, ended up with the only career available..college English teacher.
I’ve never committeed a murder. Does that mean I can’t serve on a jury during a murder trial? But, the freak down the street panhandling for his next joint is, by your logic, an expert witness?
Or are you saying that you are enlightened, and the rest of us are inferior in some way?
BobMbx on February 24, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Yeah, it’s the same argument I use when people who have never had children think they know everything about child rearing. Ironically, I became a professor long after I quit using pot, so calling me a typical pothead professor is incorrect. If you note, in my original post, I said I haven’t smoked for over 20 years. However, in that 20 years, I have managed to raise two children and live a very productive life (I was a highly successful Realtor before I became a professor). Anecdotal evidence has its value, especially when empirical evidence is lacking. So, what is your point?
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:48 PM
Ever known anybody who grew good pot? You overstate the case to say that it’s easy to grow almost anywhere. Many potheads, if not most, are going to be unsuccessful at growing their own.
While anyone can get a seed to germinate and a plant to sprout, growing a marijuana plant and producing cured, smoke-worth buds is not so simple. There are myriad factors — insects, mold, flowering cycles, strain durability, mineral, pH balance of the water, soil nutrients. Also, only the female plants flowers are smoked. One can by feminized seeds or clone a mother plant. If you want to grow decent sized plants in your yard, plan on a bad-ass theft deterrent of the Mossberg or Browning type. The overall time requirement rules out every person growing their own weed. Plus the quality of the pot sold at dispensaries and from drug dealers is way better than what one would typically produce homegrown without serious expertise.
Growing tomatoes is VERY easy — way easier than growing pot. How many people grow their own? I think avocados give us a better analogy. People love avocados. Avocado trees produce a buttload of avocados. Even when I’ve known people with trees, I still ended up paying up to a buck per Haas.
The Race Card on February 24, 2009 at 5:50 PM
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 5:46 PM
Anyone who sips a quality alcohol isn’t doing it to get high.
Is there any other reason to smoke pot? Perhaps it makes your clothes smell better?
I would agree that anyone who gets drunk is an idiot. Just as anyone who smokes pot is an idiot.
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM
So let me get this straight. Uncle Arnuld would allow the sale of Happy Valley Rolls and make money on the taxes.
So why wouldn’t Carlos over in Unhappy Valley sell the weed and not pay the taxes? Threat of prison? Threat of fines? What the frak is different between what Carlos will decide to do compared to now? The libertarians will still have their drug war to fight.
Heinz is going to grow pot on unionized farms in CA with health department regs, workmans comp, property taxes, processing facilities, liability insurance CHEAPER then Carlos with his 25 cent a day child slave laborers across the border?
OZ is a funny place.
Limerick on February 24, 2009 at 5:53 PM
Well, I sucked at the “hard” courses long before I started smoking pot. What kind of inane remark is that to make? I made it through grad school, which, of course, wasn’t “hard” at all.
If you feel inferior, it is your own doing. I never said anything about being better than anyone else. I simply think that those who make nasty remarks about smoking pot, without ever having done it, are speaking out of ignorance and bias. I feel the same way about those who give child rearing advice when they have never had children.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Tax like any other retail item, $5o an oz when the cost is $400 an oz is way too high. Given that pot is a larger cash crop in the US than corn and wheat combined, we are talking a ton of moola. Yes there will be people that grow their own. You can’t sop me from growing my own tobacco or making my own wine/beer/liquor. You can only do something about it when I give it to someone or try to sell it without either a license or paying the tax for doing so. Just like every other business venture today. People will cheat and people will get caught.
Jamewah on February 24, 2009 at 5:55 PM
You know, it’s possible to become a connisuer of weed as well. There are countless strains, and experienced smokers can point out the quality ones from the less quality ones just as a cigar expert can tell which cigars offer the richest tobacco just by smelling it. You scoff, but there are sophisticated ways to enjoy any sort of intoxicant.
justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 5:48 PM
You equate your pot use with your accomplishments. Maybe not directly, but it’s there.
And if pot is so great, non-harmful, and didn’t detract from your lifes accomplishments, why stop. You’ve raised two kids and done all these wonderful things since you’ve stopped smoking.
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM
I agree that legalizing pot will remove pot as one of the things that organized crime can use to fund itself.
However, I doubt that legalizing pot will kill their funding or even significantly impact it.
Organized crime funds itself in many ways. Like any good businessman, they’ve got multiple revenue streams. They sell the light drugs (marijuana) and the heavy drugs (LSD, PCP, Meth, Crack/Coke, etc). They also get funding through human smuggling (whether it’s just $7,500 per person to get you into the country or it’s smuggling in immigrants to staff sweatshops and brothels. If people are too much of a hassle for them, they can smuggle in exotic (and often endangered) animals. They also make a lot of money by selling knockoff merchandise in major cities – that “Gucci” bag a lady buys in NY may look like a the genuine article to her but it just looks like $$ to the mob. Throw in the millions to be made from taking a truckload of cigarettes purchased in VA to a high tobacco tax place like NY to sell on the black market and you’ve got a snake with a million heads.
Sure, you can cut one off and hurt it for a few months….a few years (at the most) but you don’t kill it.
I believe there is a valid case to be made for legalizing pot, but I don’t believe it has anything to do with whether or not marijuana sales is currently one of the methods used to fund organized crime.
JadeNYU on February 24, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Incorrect. My point is that smoking pot didn’t keep me from doing any of those things. I already had a successful career going when I stopped. I stopped mainly because I got pregnant and obviously didn’t feel that it was a good thing to do at that point. It also got very expensive, especially with two children to clothe and feed. My husband and I stopped because it was more important to support our children than to get high. Oh, and btw, I don’t drink, either.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 6:01 PM
justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 5:57 PM
I don’t disagree. But why smoke pot?
A person can drink a quality beverage for the sake of the beverage, not to get hammered. You could do the same thing with pot I suppose, but outside of a very few who might, why smoke it all?
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Have you ever been to a club? You’re off on this one.
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 6:05 PM
I stopped mainly because I got pregnant and obviously didn’t feel that it was a good thing to do at that point. It also got very expensive, especially with two children to clothe and feed. My husband and I stopped because it was more important to support our children than to get high.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Somewhere along the line, your thinking changed. You say pot didn’t keep you from doing the things you did, but you don’t do it “becasue it wasn’t a good thing to do anymore.” Why?
If pot isn’t harmful, if it doesn’t/didn’t detract from your accomplishments, if it’s negatives are tiny and positives are many, then why stop? You don’t smoke it anymore, you don’t smoke it around your kids – why?
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 6:06 PM
Why not? The issue isn’t whether or not smoking pot is a good use of time. I’m in favor of legalization and even I know its a huge time suck. But I also think World of Warcraft is a huge useless time suck, but I don’t think cops should be arresting nerds. I respect the WoW player to use their time as they choose, just as I respect the pot smoker.
Well, you can’t make things illegal based simply on the potential of abuse. Sex addicts exist, yet I don’t think there is much a movement to ban that. I don’t think anyone is disputing that pot is mostly a stupid waste of time. But people have the right to waste their time any way that they choose.
justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 6:07 PM
To me, the biggest danger of marijuana is its use by people under the age of 21. (21, not 18.) When used before the brain is fully formed, it stunts personal development and it increases the risk of schizophrenia in vulnerable individuals. None of this is a concern for older adults, which is why I’d support legalization as long as we do more to make it harder for kids to get.
As for taxation, I doubt it would bring in any additional revenue to the state. The legalize it crowd never accounts for money laundering when they do the math on marijuana taxes.
The thing is, the big-time domestic producers are already paying taxes on their profits, because in order to spend their money, they have to launder it through fake legitimate businesses, which have to pay taxes. So, marijuana production actually is taxed today. Legalizing marijuana would decrease the producers’ profits, so this tax revenue would decrease. We would get new tax revenue from the sales tax paid by purchasers, but I don’t think it would offset the tax revenue lost from the dealers’ money laundering, unless marijuana use increased significantly.
sandberg on February 24, 2009 at 6:08 PM
catmman: There are plenty of “quality” beverages that don’t contain alcohol. Why drink alcoholic ones since there are many high quality coffee, tea, and other beverages? It’s the same argument. I think part of the problem is people’s perception of what happens when someone smokes pot and gets high. The whole “reefer madness” and “Fast Times at Ridgemont High” mentality takes over. It’s just not true, anymore than it’s true that everyone who drinks an alcoholic beverage gets wasted and acts foolish. I don’t normally drink, but I have been drunk a couple of times, and I know the difference.
College Prof on February 24, 2009 at 6:08 PM
LevStrauss on February 24, 2009 at 6:05 PM
Come on – people don’t go clubbing to enjoy a quality alcohol. They go to get hammered with friends and maybe pick up some company if they are so inclined.
catmman on February 24, 2009 at 6:10 PM
And yet, somehow, they were replaced by legitimate manufacturers of ethyl alcohol meant for human consumption. Yes, the criminals stopped manufacturing liquor, because there were no longer non-economic profits available to them. That is, there were normal economic profits available to brewers like Anheuser Busch and distillers like Jack Daniels, because they were efficient businesses. La Cosa Nostra simply couldn’t compete on a level playing field where contracts are enforced by law and not by force, and where supply is determined normally, not cut due to fear of imprisonment.
Almost absolutely true. But there are two things for you to consider . First, making pot legal will not change the supply equation for hard drugs – that is, those supplying cocaine and heroin will still supply cocaine and heroin. If some portion of those supplying cannabis enter that market, all it will do is tend to increase the aggregate supply of those drugs.
Second, the aggregate demand for hard drugs is not going to go up due to legalization of cannabis, and in fact is likely to drop as the market for cannabis is now separate from the market for heroin or cocaine, and thus cannabis users are no longer as likely to be introduced to users of heroin or cocaine.
Now, considering these two facts (increase in aggregate supply of hard drugs, decrease in aggregate demand for hard drugs), the net effect is a drop in the price of of hard drugs supplied. As we know that the price elasticity of hard drugs is extremely inelastic, this net drop is not likely to attract new users into the market. Thus, the total revenue to the market for hard drugs will go down. This means less money going into the pockets of organized crime. I think we can agree that this is a universal good.
I think the above argument debunks that claim.
JohnGalt23 on February 24, 2009 at 6:12 PM
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