California debating marijuana legalization

posted at 12:40 pm on February 24, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

More than a decade ago, California legalized marijuana used for “medicinal” purposes, leading to the establishment of pot clubs and setting off a confrontation with the federal government.  Now they want to end the medical pretense and make cannabis flat-out legal for personal use.  The Assembly will take AB390 under consideration, supported by those who see an economic benefit from bringing the industry out of the shadows.  Critics see a whopping hypocrisy from the nanny-staters:

Smoke weed – help the state?

Marijuana would be sold and taxed openly in California to adults 21 and older if legislation proposed Monday is signed into law.

Assemblyman Tom Ammiano, D-San Francisco, said his bill could generate big bucks for a cash-starved state while freeing law enforcement agencies to focus on worse crimes.

“I think there’s a mentality throughout the state and the country that this isn’t the highest priority – and that maybe we should start to reassess,” he said.

Critics counter that it makes no sense for a Legislature so concerned about health that it has restricted use of trans fats in restaurants to legalize the smoking of a potentially harmful drug.

That does make for a strange conflict.  California’s legislature may label trans fats more dangerous than marijuana to the public.  Regulating one while deregulating the other seems very hypocritical — and calls into question whether the state has the competence to understand personal choices better than the people making them.  Given this example, I’d say no.

Moving beyond that to the issue itself, California and other states will have to make some hard choices on law-enforcement policies as monies start running low in a deep recession.  The Wall Street Journal makes the same point in a column today by the former presidents of Brazil, Mexico and Colombia about the war on drugs in general.  They wonder whether selective enforcement and prevention might prove more effective:

In this spirit, we propose a paradigm shift in drug policies based on three guiding principles: Reduce the harm caused by drugs, decrease drug consumption through education, and aggressively combat organized crime. To translate this new paradigm into action we must start by changing the status of addicts from drug buyers in the illegal market to patients cared for by the public-health system.

We also propose the careful evaluation, from a public-health standpoint, of the possibility of decriminalizing the possession of cannabis for personal use. Cannabis is by far the most widely used drug in Latin America, and we acknowledge that its consumption has an adverse impact on health. But the available empirical evidence shows that the hazards caused by cannabis are similar to the harm caused by alcohol or tobacco.

If we want to effectively curb drug use, we should look to the campaign against tobacco consumption. The success of this campaign illustrates the effectiveness of prevention campaigns based on clear language and arguments consistent with individual experience. Likewise, statements by former addicts about the dangers of drugs will be far more compelling to current users than threats of repression or virtuous exhortations against drug use.

Such educational campaigns must be targeted at youth, by far the largest contingent of users and of those killed in the drug wars. The campaigns should also stress each person’s responsibility toward the rising violence and corruption associated with the narcotics trade. By treating consumption as a matter of public health, we will enable police to focus their efforts on the critical issue: the fight against organized crime.

This sounds like double-speak.  Besides decriminalizing marijuana, which would actually remove the profit potential of the criminal gangs, one cannot fight organized crime without fighting the actual crimes they commit — and the people with whom they commit them.  Imagine a world in which prostitution was illegal but the customers break no laws in procuring sex for money.  Can anyone imagine successful prosecutions of the hookers and pimps if the system explicitly allowed johns to walk free?  It’s absurd.

So is the notion that we need to set up a public-health system for addicts.  I sympathize with the libertarian argument of personal choice, more so for marijuana than most other substances, but don’t sell me personal choice and then demand a publicly-funded support system for it.  If we have to pay for the latter, then keep throwing the users in prison.  The people need to carry the burden and costs of their own personal choices without making it everyone else’s problem, or else we’re back at the original rationale for the war on drugs.

California has other motives than personal choice.  They see a multibillion-dollar industry that exists below the radar of taxation, thanks to its illicit status.  Legalizing pot means allowing transactions to become above-board and eligible for sales and income tax.  I wonder how much of that will evaporate, though, once weed gets legalized.  It’s easy to grow almost anywhere, especially in California, and most users would probably start growing their own supply once the deterrent of law enforcement gets removed.

I keep meaning to schedule John Holowach for my show to discuss his film High: The True Tale of American Marijuana.  I’ll try to get him soon.

Blowback

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Dope and Change!

Firebird on February 24, 2009 at 12:41 PM

Vegetables are easy to grow. Very few people grow their own.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:43 PM

It took one depression to stamp out booze prohibition. I guess we needed depression the sequel before people started to rethink pot prohibition.

It’s easy to grow almost anywhere, especially in California, and most users would probably start growing their own supply once the deterrent of law enforcement gets removed.

Yeah, just like people started to make MORE bathtub gin after booze prohibition was repealed.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

california is already UP IN SMOKE

whats a little more?

right4life on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Cigarattes and alcohol are legal products. But the police manage to fight the gangs associated with the smuggling of those products.

The difference is that they are being gone after on a tax evasion basis.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

I’m not sure if I am in favor of legalization … but definitely decriminalization.

Ian on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Can anyone imagine successful prosecutions of the hookers and pimps if the system explicitly allowed johns to walk free? It’s absurd.

I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic, but doesn’t this currently happen frequently?

Abby Adams on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

it should be legalized, taxed and regulated in every state.

alcohol and tobacco are both far more destructive than weed.

any argument otherwise is hypocritical and/or uninformed.

homesickamerican on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Who gets to sell it? Are they going to allow non-licensed people sell a controlled substance? If so, why is cough medicine more tightly regulated than marijuana – which you can only buy from a pharmacy and if you show a license.

If you aren’t going to allow every moron on the street to sell it – are you going to arrest people for selling pot without a license and for not collecting taxes?

If you are, what’s the difference, really?

I could go on, but you get my point.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Complete nationwide legalization would certainly be a wild card to change the equation of our economic dilemma.

econavenger on February 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Why is this even a battle? Why do we need another drug out for the kids to abuse?
I do not want to be on the road with some kid or adult smoking weed, we have enough problem with alcohol…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM

Priorities.
*Sigh*

Well, if they decide to do this, I hope it’s legalized before my next tax bill arrives.

Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 12:48 PM

duuuuuuude

*cough*

yo on February 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Don’t laugh, most of the dopers who support Obama would also support legalization in all states. Like this nut

it should be legalized, taxed and regulated in every state.

alcohol and tobacco are both far more destructive than weed.

any argument otherwise is hypocritical and/or uninformed.

homesickamerican on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Visit Amsterdam, then get back to me.

james23 on February 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM

Why notl . . . that governor and the legislature are obviously already high on pot. Might as well make it legal.

rplat on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Will this help the high School dropout rate get under 25%

Firebird on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

alcohol and tobacco are both far more destructive than weed.

any argument otherwise is hypocritical and/or uninformed.

homesickamerican on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Well, maybe they are more destructive because they are so pervasive?
Just trying to inform you…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

I cannot find anything in the federal constitution that allows the feds to regualate drugs. Commerce clause? Please…

The states have a right to determine their drug policy. I would prefer my state to keep weed and other drugs illegal.

WashJeff on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Will this help the high School dropout rate get under 25%

Firebird on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Try more like 35% and over 50% in the lower income areas, where this will have a more profound effect.

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Who gets to sell it? Are they going to allow non-licensed people sell a controlled substance? If so, why is cough medicine more tightly regulated than marijuana – which you can only buy from a pharmacy and if you show a license.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM

The only reason cough medicine is so tightly regulated is because it can be used to make illegal drugs.

More drug war nonsense in action.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Doesn’t weed make you lethargic? Do our apathetic “gimme gimme” entitlement masses need yet another factor in their laziness agenda? On the other hand, I need an “off” switch for the next 4 Looooong years of oboo-boo…..maybe wafting away on a legal high is the ticket.

Ris4victory on February 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Wow, legalized pot is sure bring back all the productive taxpayers and employers that bolted to other states. Do you think the California welfare state will get dragged down by an influx of pot smokers from other states? How many years before a class action is made against tobacco pot providers because pot smoke is more damaging than tobacco smoke — and what about the poor children exposed to second-hand pot smoke?

Mark30339 on February 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM

California’s legislature may label trans fats more dangerous than marijuana to the public. Regulating one while deregulating the other seems very hypocritical

Not that I agree with either….but hypocritical? Hardly. How many lardasses are keeling over with heart problems, versus….how many potheads?

There simply isn’t the same medical imperative surrounding pot as there is surrounding foodstuffs that contribute to all the fat bastards out there.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Visit Amsterdam, then get back to me.

james23 on February 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM

The only thing that’s dangerous to the public in Amsterdam is the islamo-fascists.

the_nile on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

I need an “off” switch for the next 4 Looooong years of oboo-boo…..maybe wafting away on a legal high is the ticket.

Ris4victory on February 24, 2009 at 12:52 PM

Best argument yet…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Why is this even a battle? Why do we need another drug out for the kids to abuse?
I do not want to be on the road with some kid or adult smoking weed, we have enough problem with alcohol…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM

In two short sentences, you manage to disprove your own point.

1) Marijuana, and all other drugs, are already available to kids.
2) We already have mechanisms to punish those who abuse the right to drink. The same mechanisms will work, just as well for those who abuse drugs.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Sounds like California is just looking for more revenue streams to pay for all their dodgy liberal programs. If they make pot legal it means they can then tax the crap out of it.

Dreadnought223 on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

The only thing that’s dangerous to the public in Amsterdam is the islamo-fascists.

the_nile on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Better “re-visit” Amsterdam…it is a mess.

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM

They want to get rid of trans fat, and legalize pot. Hmmm, there are going to be a lot of pissed off potheads when they get the munchies.

MDWNJ on February 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM

Well, maybe they are more destructive because they are so pervasive?

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

So are most illegal drugs.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:54 PM

Try more like 35% and over 50% in the lower income areas, where this will have a more profound effect.

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Right now, it’s easier for a kid to buy pot than buy booze. You know why? Because the drug dealer down the street doesn’t give a crap who he sells to. It’s illegal anyway, so he sells to everybody. The liquor store owner will REFUSE to sell to the kid because he doesn’t want to loose his licesne. If you actually think legalization will INCREASE pot availablity to teens, you just aren’t aware how prevalent pot is already (despite pouring twenty billion dollars a year down the sewer to try and stop it).

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Some scientist needs to develop a way of testing for recent use of marijuana in drivers. That would remove a lot of the arguments from this debate.

BadgerHawk on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Better yet, legalize Marijuana but only IF grown in Mexico under supervision of THEIR government.

We can tax it, create jobs IN MEXICO and this will reduce the illegal immigrants HERE!

We can use that money to hire illegals to build the WALL we need to keep them out.

MEXICAN MARIJUANA MAKE MUCH MONEY, Man

originalpechanga on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

Vegetables are easy to grow. Very few people grow their own.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Vegetables aren’t weeds. There’s a huge difference.

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

I know -why- it’s illegal. It’s beyond the point. Soon, cough syrup will be harder to get than pot. I had to give my driver’s license to get Zyrtec (allergy) the other day. Pot will be easier to get? WTH?

I’m in favor of legalizing, don’t get me wrong. But most people in favor of legalizing have not thought thru their support too well – as I illustrated above.

I’d only support legalization if it’s tied to consequences for it. On drugs or fail a drug test? No unemployemnt/welfare/food stamps/etc. (Yes, I’d add alcohol to that too, not only drugs)

Unfortunately, it’s not here (or doesn’t seem to be), so it just seems to be a way to give up.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

I’ve always said that the only difference between conservatives and liberals was what part of your life they wanted govt to run.

For the good of the children, of course.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

Dopiate of the masses?

thecountofincognito on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Marijuana *does* lead to stronger drugs. I found out the hard way, years ago.

I would prefer my state to keep weed and other drugs illegal.

WashJeff on February 24, 2009 at 12:51 PM

ditto.

OmahaConservative on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Sounds like California is just looking for more revenue streams to pay for all their dodgy liberal programs. If they make pot legal it means they can then tax the crap out of it.

Dreadnought223 on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Watch the trend. Pot tax revenue up. Income tax revenue down due to increased laziness. As long as my money is not envolved and I have 1000+ miles between me and Kalifornia, I’ll make some popcorn and watch the results.

WashJeff on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

So, instead of cops going around arresting people who buy/sell pot, they are going to go around and arrest people for buying/selling pot and are under 21.

Nuance.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Vegetables aren’t weeds. There’s a huge difference.

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

I just wish I could get the weeds from growing in my yard.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Vegetables aren’t weeds. There’s a huge difference.

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

Yeah. You can’t smoke swiss chard.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Every time I hear someone say they are in favor of leagalizing this stuff…..my mind jumps to the scene of the first mass fatalities when some doped-up loser runs a bus load of kids off a cliff and kills them all. I also have a vision of airplanes crashing into buildings and dopers killed because they somehow thought they were home and accidentally broke into my home. ( Whereupon I non-accidentally excercised my 2nd Amed. Rights on them)

smoking dope is as harmless as beer. right. and Obama is a capitalist.

OwlorNothing on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Assemblyman Tom Ammiano, D-San Francisco, said his bill could generate big bucks for a cash-starved state
Assembly Bill 390 would charge cannabis wholesalers $5,000 initially and $2,500 annually for the right to distribute weed.

Retail outlets would pay fees of $50 per ounce of cannabis to generate revenue for drug education programs statewide.

AB 390 could generate roughly $1.3 billion per year from marijuana sales – about $990 million from the fee on retailers and $349 million in sales taxes, according to BOE estimates.

“You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.”

Brat on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

I actually have a green thumb, which to this point yields no revenue…..maybe I can TM my own brand and quit my day job of 20 years. I can envision “Soetoro Smash” as my signature blend. heh

Ris4victory on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Marijuana *does* lead to stronger drugs. I found out the hard way, years ago.
OmahaConservative on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Your personal weakness and lack of character & discipline led you to take harder drugs.

I hope you are a stronger person nowadays.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

So, instead of cops going around arresting people who buy/sell pot, they are going to go around and arrest people for buying/selling pot and are under 21.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Uh, yeah. Just like they already do with booze. Therefore freeing up the police force to do ACTUAL police work and save a lot tax dollars to boot. Sounds good to me.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

1) Marijuana, and all other drugs, are already available to kids.
2) We already have mechanisms to punish those who abuse the right to drink. The same mechanisms will work, just as well for those who abuse drugs.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

So I guess if the kids can get their hands on it, then make it legal? That’s your argument?
The punishment, to often, comes after the crime (accident) has been committed…I prefer to be pro-active, rather then re-active.
I don’t agree with position…kids don’t have the right to tell us what they want…hence I don’t like condoms in school offices, kids are not allowed to smoke on campus, kids are not allowed to drink…your argument would be to make alcohol legal for kids…
We have enough problem with drunk driving (tens of thousands die a year), I would just as soon not add another way for them to kill more people.

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

I can envision “Soetoro Smash” as my signature blend. heh

Ris4victory on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Getting blasted is for kids and amateurs….grow something more cerebral ;)

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Uh, yeah. Just like they already do with booze. Therefore freeing up the police force to do ACTUAL police work and save a lot tax dollars to boot. Sounds good to me.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

As I stated above. The difference is – how are you going to stop “unlicensed dealers” who stand on corners without a license? Arrest them? Is buying from an “unlicensed dealer” a crime? Arrest them, too?

Seriously. Think this through a little bit more.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

OwlorNothing on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Your frenzied imagination is no substitute for reason.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Well, maybe they are more destructive because they are so pervasive?
Just trying to inform you…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 12:50 PM

Bingo.

But it is only through a large scale experiment into that arena that we will be able to determine if this kind of study is valid or had an erroneous methodology.

Personally, I view this as not being that different from the old cigarrette advertisements with doctors recommending the health benefits of smoking tobacco.

After there were lots of numbers to indicate otherwise, there was too much tax revenue to be lost, so in the end its all about numbers and taxes.

Marine_Bio on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

This is hysterical- will they have one tourism commercial with Maria and Ahhnold begging people to come spend their vacation dollars in CA, extolling the “family aspect” of a fun CA vacation, and then have the next commercial be one for the out of state stoners?? I spent the first 25 years of my life in CA, and my whole family is located there, and I STILL hate that state! It’s absolutely criminal that a state with that kind of beauty is wasted on these loons.

anniekc on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

I hope you are a stronger person nowadays.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Of course I am. I was speaking of thirty-five+ years ago.

OmahaConservative on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

it should be legalized, taxed and regulated in every state.

alcohol and tobacco are both far more destructive than weed.

any argument otherwise is hypocritical and/or uninformed.

homesickamerican on February 24, 2009 at 12:45 PM

Alcohol and tobacco are more destrucvtive? How? Or would you say the abuse of them is more destructive?

To say that marijuana is less harmful than tobacco is in itself a rather uninformed argument isn’t it?

catmman on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Key line from the LA Slimes’s story on this:

He [Tom Ammiano, San Francisco Democrat state legislator] sees the possibility of an eventual truce in the marijuana wars with Barack Obama now in the White House.

No surprise there.

MrScribbler on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Fact: Alcohol and Tobacco both bring with them more health risks than pot and alcohol in particular leads to all sorts of societal ills (domestic abuse, bar brawls, binge drinking related death).

These are both substances that people feel can be “enjoyed responsibly.” There is nothing about marijuana that makes it somehow worse than these substances, yet we treat it as such. Plus, in places like California where its already a 14billion dollar industry, substantial tax revenue can be generated. Going on the $50 per ounce tax plan, the revenue is in the billions. Plus, im SURE a higher tax would work. up to $200 an ounce even if the price itself dropped to where it should be once the danger markup is taken out of the equation.

And one final thing. The reason you get SWAT teams killing peoples dogs busting into wrong houses and harassing families over small offences is all of you who arent necessarily opposed to legalization but consider it the “law of the land” that pot be illegal. The silent majority leaves room for obscene law enforcement practices. Stop being silent. Most of you know in your hearts pot is no more dangerous than alcohol. Lets finally be adults and understand the idiocy of these laws and legalize!

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

So is the notion that we need to set up a public-health system for addicts. I sympathize with the libertarian argument of personal choice, more so for marijuana than most other substances, but don’t sell me personal choice and then demand a publicly-funded support system for it.

I entirely agree.

Personal choice, and personal responsibility for those choices. Legalize, not subsidize.

MadisonConservative on February 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM

To say that marijuana is less harmful than tobacco is in itself a rather uninformed argument isn’t it?

catmman on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

If ingested or vaporized…it is considerably less harmful.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Vegetables are easy to grow. Very few people grow their own.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:43 PM

Veggies don’t sell for $400 an ounce. You think the price would go down if the government allowed it?

BierManVA on February 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM

1) Marijuana, and all other drugs, are already available to kids.

You make it sound like they can pick it up in a vending machine. It’s available in the same sense anything else illegal is.

2) We already have mechanisms to punish those who abuse the right to drink. The same mechanisms will work, just as well for those who abuse drugs.

MarkTheGreat on February 24, 2009 at 12:53 PM

No, we don’t. You can’t tell if someone is high with a urine test or a blood test or a breathalyzer. You can’t even tell with backwards ABCs.

So what’s the plan?

The liquor store owner will REFUSE to sell to the kid because he doesn’t want to loose his licesne.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

And the kid’s 21-year-old friend? Is he supposed to care about teen drinkers?

I’m sorry but this is a ridiculous argument. You can even test it out if you want. Go to any random city and see how long it takes you to get weed, then see how long it takes you to get alcohol.

For the former, you’d have to know who to ask and might wind up asking the wrong person or asking in the vicinity of the wrong person. For the latter, all you have to do is park your car outside a liquor store and wait for someone willing to buy you alcohol.

As a 20-year-old, the longest I waited was 30 minutes. You’re lying to yourself if you think you can get pot easier than that.

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 12:55 PM

So then we make a harmful drug easier? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me…just because kids can buy it easy, doesn’t mean we give into their desires…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Alcohol is a deadly, addictive drug, yet it is legal. If you use alcohol, you are a drug user, regardless of the legality of the drug.

Anybody who uses alcohol but still wants to keep marijuana illegal is a hypocrite no matter how you rationalize your intellectual inconsistency.

If you think marijuana should still be illegal, then to be intellectual consistent you should be arguing to make alcohol illegal.

And to head off the inevitable comments, no, not all drugs should be legal.

Rocket-Man on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

So I guess if the kids can get their hands on it, then make it legal? That’s your argument?

I really don’t get the mind of prohibitionists, “Oh, sure, the drug war has failed miserably to keep pot off the streets, but we should keep doing what we are still doing, because uh… drugs are bad.” What is the definition of insanity again? I thought it was only liberals who would follow a failed policy to the ends of the earth on some sort of misguided moral grounds.

We have enough problem with drunk driving (tens of thousands die a year), I would just as soon not add another way for them to kill more people.

Oh, you know what would end all DUI accidents? Banning cars! The slippery slope goes both ways.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

As I stated above. The difference is – how are you going to stop “unlicensed dealers” who stand on corners without a license? Arrest them? Is buying from an “unlicensed dealer” a crime? Arrest them, too?

Seriously. Think this through a little bit more.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

If you buy bootleg cigarettes you get in trouble, and those who sold you the tax free loot often go to prison. Why should pot be any different? The key is to stop wasting man hours raiding responsible adults home for a freaking leaf.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

OmahaConservative on February 24, 2009 at 12:57 PM

Sugar and Caffeine are drugs. Technically food is a drug, as it alters your body chemistry. Don’t blame MaryJane for your foray into hard synthesized substances.

infidel on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Bout time. Never did it, but it is a waste of resources to prosecute. I’d rather have real criminals fill our jails.

Though it is funny, they drive out the productive people with ridiculous tax rates and then make those that stayed less productive. Smart move.

Chubbs65 on February 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM

MrScribbler on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Yes indeedy. The Sacramento Bee article in Ed’s link mentions BO too.

Ammiano said that such a change in federal law might be possible because new President Barack Obama – several years ago – expressed a desire to consider decriminalizing marijuana.

Brat on February 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM

Finally, a true Stimulus bill!! I am buying shares of Pizza Hut, Dominoes, Papa Johns, etc. Very bullish on pizza joints (especially those that deliver) if this passes!!

search4truth on February 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM

I live in California. Nobody gets arrested for pot now unless they are growing hundreds of plants or are dealing large amounts. People are allowed to grow a few plants for “medical marijuana”, which you can do with a simple letter from a doctor (which anyone can easily get). The possession of pot for personal use is decriminalized due to medical use, as in several other states. Even before medical marijuana laws, the maximum fine for personal use was $100, and it was an infraction. So, it’s essentially legal now, and it is the state’s biggest cash crop.

We are always amused by the DEA stomping around the redwood country looking for pot farms run by elderly hippies. What a waste of time and money! Go after the meth labs and leave pot alone.

sdillard on February 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM

The key is to stop wasting man hours raiding responsible adults home for a freaking leaf.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

…so we have time to go after purveyors of trans fat.

WashJeff on February 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Forget it! The medical use is a ruse. Since less than an ounce is merely a fine, it for all sense and purposes has been decriminalize.

Blake on February 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM

I hate to quibble with your cute “Stimulus package” subheading, Ed, but marijuana is not a stimulant. It’s closer to a hallucinogen.

Interesting comparison of the effects of various drugs at HHS’s Services Substance Abuse And Mental Health Services Administration.

Y-not on February 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM

After there were lots of numbers to indicate otherwise, there was too much tax revenue to be lost, so in the end its all about numbers and taxes.

Marine_Bio on February 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM

Cut out alcohol or cigs and the state loses huge amount of taxes, so they have a vested interest to keep these going…however, add another taxable substance, and they will then subvertly support that product also.
There is no real reason to add a drug that has harmful affects on society…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Didn’t John & Abigail Adams spark one up in HBOs ‘John Adams’? Um, maybe I was high…

BHO Jonestown on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

So then we make a harmful drug easier? Sorry, it doesn’t make sense to me…just because kids can buy it easy, doesn’t mean we give into their desires…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 1:04 PM

You didn’t listen. Legalization would make it HARDER to buy, because it would discourage legal sellers to give it to them, just like with booze. Pot is the NUMBER ONE cash crop in the country. Numero uno.

Actually, you know who else really hopes this doesn’t go through? Drug dealers, traffickers, and mexican drug lords. It totally cut into their racket. Much in the same way the biggest loser when prohibition was repealed was Al Capone.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

Weed merchants take a step back here. Tom Ammiano is a flaming gay/lib former SF County Supervisor. He is also prolly the most liberal whacked out dude in a legislature full of liberal whack jobs. However, while this bill may pass in the Assembly its unlikely to pass the Senate, much less get signed by the Taxinator.

Mike D. on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

“To translate this new paradigm into action we must start by changing the status of addicts from drug buyers in the illegal market to patients cared for by the public-health system.”

Two problems here: First, what if the addict DOES NOT want to be treated? We have that problem right now in Kaleefornia. Doper gets busted, doper pleads out case and elects for “rehabilitation”. Doper gets busted again, again opts for “rehabilitation”. Doper gets busted again….. And it goes on and on until the judge finally gets pissed about seeing the same people over and over.

Then you have the “medical care”. Paid by who, the doper?
Sorry, they’ve got money for drugs, nothing else. Well look who’s going to get stuck….again…..the taxpayer.

Maybe if the assholes in Sacramento would cut “advisory commissions” for termed-out legislators and avoid spending ONE MILLION on the State Controller’s new office furniture, they’d have money to spend on actual services to the taxpayer. What an innovative idea!

GarandFan on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

Forget it! The medical use is a ruse. Since less than an ounce is merely a fine, it for all sense and purposes has been decriminalize.

Blake on February 24, 2009 at 1:07 PM

Less than an ounce has been decriminalized here in NY too…but we still have a 1 year/1000 fine for “dirty” paraphernalia. We need legalization.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

it’s not as if trans-fats are illegal or that marijuana would not be regulated.

Trans-fats went from no regulation to some regulation; the proposal is for marijuana to go from complete prohibition to massive regulation. I don’t see much hypocrisy there.

DaveO on February 24, 2009 at 1:09 PM

I’d only support legalization if it’s tied to consequences for it. On drugs or fail a drug test? No unemployemnt/welfare/food stamps/etc. (Yes, I’d add alcohol to that too, not only drugs)

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 12:56 PM

That would certainly be a start that would bring many people around.

Yeah. You can’t smoke swiss chard.

LimeyGeek on February 24, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Well, you can, you just shouldn’t.

Or would you say the abuse of them is more destructive?

catmman on February 24, 2009 at 1:02 PM

Far more accurate to say “abuse” as alcohol in moderation is a health benefit, whereas pot carries no such benefit, unless you’re anorexic and even then…

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 1:09 PM

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

Once again. My point is missed.

So, instead of arresting them for selling a leaf; you are going to arrest them for selling a leaf without a license.

Point is, is that the ones being arrested will be the same ones being arrest now. Just the reasons are different (ie, they didn’t get approval from big brother to sell it).

Personally, in this instance, I’d rather stay illegal. Accepting legalization with the caveats of “licensing” and “regulations” and “taxation” is a loss. Spin it how you want, but it is a defeat.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM

We are always amused by the DEA stomping around the redwood country looking for pot farms run by elderly hippies. What a waste of time and money! Go after the meth labs and leave pot alone.

sdillard on February 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM

It’s not amusing for the forest service ranger who stumbles on these farms and gets shot…these are gangsters running these farms, not some “hippie”, this is major illegal business.
And they use satellite pictures now,that can tell the difference between different plants and vegetation.

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 1:11 PM

Another Cash Crop for Nebraskans. I’m sure I can find some Nebraska Ditchweed around here somewhere.

s/

PappaMac on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Complete nationwide legalization would certainly be a wild card to change the equation of our economic dilemma.

econavenger on February 24, 2009 at 12:46 PM

I disagree. If the intent is just to raise money, then just raise sales taxes or payroll taxes. Why tax an item and raise all of your revenue from 10% of the populace? Spread it out and don’t send the message that drugs are ok.

BierManVA on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Limeygeek, your one-liners are stale.

OwlorNothing on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

AH MAN, WHERE’S MY TWINKIES?

Onager on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Moving my investments to Yum!

DarkCurrent on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

If ingested or vaporized…it is considerably less harmful.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:03 PM

So now we’re debating the degree of harm? Or are we going to debate “in moderation”?

If a person doesn’t smoke a cig, yet smokes 15 joints a day, more or less inclined to develop lung cancer?

catmman on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

Anything for a buck, huh?

Let’s not consider cutting spending because I have a better idea: Lets’ sell drugs.

Here’s another idea: Let’s pass a law where husbands are required to whore out their wives at least one night a week, with the proceeds going to the state. Hey, it’s for the kids.

Oooh, and yet another one: Let’s take over the “Adopt-a-Highway program, change the name to “Assign-a-Highway”, fire all the highway sanitation workers (saves money!) and then assign a portion of each roadway to a specific family who’ll be responsible for mowing, trash pick-up and snow removal.

You know, the list is endless.

BobMbx on February 24, 2009 at 1:12 PM

The key is to stop wasting man hours raiding responsible adults home for a freaking leaf.

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:05 PM

That’s your problem right there. You’re not supposed to smoke the leaf.

Esthier on February 24, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Hell, I’m all for California legalizing pot. And while they’re at it they should include heroin, coke, and meth as well.

California is a lost cause and I could care less what these knobs come up with as they’re circling the drain.

But you can be sure it won’t be taking advantage of all the natural gas and oil that can be found off their Coast.

“Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.”

there it is on February 24, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Yeah… this makes sense. CA leads the charge to essentially criminalize tobacco but wants to legalize pot.

The tax revenue argument is ridiculous and serves no purpose other than to try and make the idea of legalizing pot palatable for the more conservative folks. The cost of creating a tax assessing and collection infrastructure will far exceed any potential revenue gains and enforcement costs will simply shift from the current (and exceedingly lax) prosecution for illegal drug possession/ distribution/ etc. to the same for illegally distributing a controlled substance and tax evasion.

The only possible substantive change would be allowing worthless potheads to be openly stoned in public instead of confining their activities to their parents basements.

Testing and other measure would become even more necessary. Imagine if it were legal for your kids school bus driver to smoke a joint on his/ her way to work?

Drugs are illegal because they are stupid, dangerous and have consistently proven to be harmful to both the people who use them and the people around them, both directly and indirectly.

Back to my original point- How can anyone make the argument to ban cigarettes from public places and in the next breath say that pot should be legalized? What happened to the gazillions of dollars that it cost to treat smokers that has prompted the annual, massive tax increases on tobacco? Is marijuana somehow exempt from all these costs and negative impacts to society and should thus be legalized while cigarettes are progressively outlawed?

Damiano on February 24, 2009 at 1:14 PM

Problem is, once the CA govt. gets into it, they’ll start regulating who can sell weed, who can grow it, how they can grow it, ensuring that they do so in the most environmentally correct manner, and in general will use the “weed tax” to create another big, wasteful bureaucracy that fails to solve the fiscal problems out there.

Meanwhile, said wasteful bureaucracy will interfere with the growers such that the quality of hippy lettuce being sold will decline precipitously and to the point where regular pot smokers will go back to the black market to get the good stuff.

You just watch.

Nevertheless, I wouldn’t even put my bets on them going through with it. There are plenty of illegal drug dealers with plenty to lose if this happens, and some of their money will find its way into the pockets of politicians in search of “no” votes.

thirteen28 on February 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM

So, instead of arresting them for selling a leaf; you are going to arrest them for selling a leaf without a license.

Yeah, just like we arrest moonshiners and people who make and sell booze in their bathtub. How often do you think that has happened since prohibition was repealed?

Point is, is that the ones being arrested will be the same ones being arrest now. Just the reasons are different (ie, they didn’t get approval from big brother to sell it).

Uh, no. The people who want to do business with get the lisecne, the people who provide the best product will rise to the top, and the rest will whither away. The free market works.

Personally, in this instance, I’d rather stay illegal. Accepting legalization with the caveats of “licensing” and “regulations” and “taxation” is a loss. Spin it how you want, but it is a defeat.

It’s a win for anyone who wants to end a failed policy and wants lower taxes.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM

Once again. My point is missed.

So, instead of arresting them for selling a leaf; you are going to arrest them for selling a leaf without a license.
Point is, is that the ones being arrested will be the same ones being arrest now. Just the reasons are different (ie, they didn’t get approval from big brother to sell it).

Personally, in this instance, I’d rather stay illegal. Accepting legalization with the caveats of “licensing” and “regulations” and “taxation” is a loss. Spin it how you want, but it is a defeat.

lorien1973 on February 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM

A defeat to whom? You also ignore the fact that those who are being arrested now wont exist in the numbers they exist now. Why would anyone waste their time handing our unregulated dimebags on the corner when anyone can walk into a store and buy the real good stuff, the verifiable strains of high quality stuff, from an established business?

ernesto on February 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM

one cannot fight organized crime without fighting the actual crimes they commit

Ed, if pot is legal, licensed dealers will sell it for a lower price, as the cost of everything involved [except for the taxes] will be much lower. I imagine that the incentive to illegally deal in weed will be greatly diminished.

Let’s prosecute criminals for actual crimes. Weed busts are a waste of time. If Cali wants to legalize it, we as Federalists should not stand in the way.

William F. Buckley Jr. had logical ideas on this topic.

Conservatives say they want smaller government, but do they really?

toliver on February 24, 2009 at 1:16 PM

How can anyone think that taxing something $800/lb will not cause rampant tax evasion, especially considering that the product has been sold underground forever with an existing infrastructure to avoid government intervention/detection?

rw on February 24, 2009 at 1:17 PM

You didn’t listen. Legalization would make it HARDER to buy, because it would discourage legal sellers to give it to them, just like with booze. Pot is the NUMBER ONE cash crop in the country. Numero uno.

Actually, you know who else really hopes this doesn’t go through? Drug dealers, traffickers, and mexican drug lords. It totally cut into their racket. Much in the same way the biggest loser when prohibition was repealed was Al Capone.

justfinethanks on February 24, 2009 at 1:08 PM

So if someone is buying a selling illegally now, why not continue and not pay taxes…because he might get arrested, like now? We can arrest them now for tax evasion, and selling an illegal substance.
It will just open the borders and transportation of more of the drug…and I don’t think more drugs is an answer, you do.
It is naive to think that drug use won’t go up substantially, especially among teens, if it is legal.
Sorry, but more people high in this country does not give me a feeling of hope and prosperity…

right2bright on February 24, 2009 at 1:17 PM

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