Was the Dresden Raid a war crime?
posted at 1:38 pm on February 22, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
When discussing war crimes during World War II, two events usually get thrown out as indictments of the Allies: dropping atomic weapons on the Japanese and the raid of Dresden, in which 25,000 people died mostly of the raging fire that swept the German city. Critics accuse the Allies of deliberately attacking a civilian population center with little military value as a payback for Nazi attacks on Britain. This perception gained a lot of credence through Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse 5, his autobiographical tale inspired by his eyewitness experience at Dresden as a POW.
Interestingly, though, Germans apparently tend to view it differently, especially since one particular group has seized on Dresden as a means of rehabilitating Hitler. Der Spiegel interviewed historian Frederick Taylor and revealed the much more complicated role of Dresden in the war than the post-bombing spin credits, and still calls into question the Allied strategy in its bombing campaign late in the war:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Still, there was certainly more to the Dresden air raid than a desire to destroy civilian morale, wasn’t there?
Taylor: Certainly. The Dresden attack was directly linked to the conduct of the war elsewhere — in this case on the Eastern Front. In Feb. 1945, Dresden was a major transport and communication hub less than 120 miles from the advancing Russians. The aim of the bombing was quite deliberately to destroy the center of the city, thereby making the movement of German soldiers and civilians impossible.
Nor was Dresden uninvolved in war production:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: The inflated casualty figures have proven quite resistant to academic research. The myth of Dresden as a victim of Allied aggression is one that refuses to go away. How innocent was Dresden really?
Taylor: Dresden was undeniably a beautiful city, a center of the arts and a symbol of all that was great about pre-Nazi German humanism. It was also quite strongly Nazi and a major industrial center. Its light industries, ranging from factories producing typewriters and cigarettes to furniture and candy, had overwhelmingly been converted to war use after 1939. Around 70,000 workers in the city are thought to have been involved in war-related work. Its regional railway directorate was heavily involved in the war effort on the eastern front and also in the transport of prisoners within the concentration camp system. The question therefore is not whether Dresden contained legitimate bombing targets, but whether the method and intensity of the February 1945 bombing was justifiable.
But in questioning the Allies’ strategy, who benefits now?
Taylor: The neo-Nazis use the anniversary in two ways. First, as a straight propaganda bludgeon against the victors of World War II, an exemple of the Allies’ allegedly criminal conduct of the war against Germany. Second, more subtly, as a tool to relativize Adolf Hitler’s Holocaust. They refer to a “bomb holocaust” of the Allies against the civilian inhabitants of German cities, wildly inflating the figures involved and, of course, underplaying the number of Jews, Sinti, Roma, homosexuals and political prisoners, and other millions of victims of the real Holocaust. It is this two-fold advantage of the Dresden anniversary protests that is especially attractive to the neo-Nazis and their associates. Plus, many otherwise respectable people in Dresden and elsewhere, many of whom grew up with the post-war myths, continue to believe in the inflated casualty figures and in the criminality of the Allied bombing campaign.
The methodology can certainly be criticized without making it an argument for “war crimes”. The Germans manufactured arms in Dresden, and by their own conduct of the war, made that a permissible target for Allied bombers. The use and intensity of incendiary bombs could certainly be questioned; the resultant firestorm literally sucked the oxygen out of the city and asphyxiated thousands, which Vonnegut saw first-hand.
But the use of incendiary bombs on factories and railheads was not a war crime, nor was particularly controversial during that war, as the Germans had been dropping them on London for years by that point. The Allies had a right to destroy the Nazi war production system, including in Dresden. They had a limited number of options for bombing targets, and the intensity can reasonably be assigned to an accuracy that had eluded the Allies on their night bombing runs for most of the war.
And let’s not forget that at the same time as the Allies raided Dresden, the Germans were launching rocket attacks with only marginal thoughts of accuracy against the British civilian centers. If Hitler had the ability to create a Dresden in London, he would not have hesitated to wreak it.
I give Der Spiegel credit for getting past the slogans and confronting history as it happened. Be sure to read the entire interview.
Update: Ed Driscoll took a lengthier look at the question in 2005 while reviewing Taylor’s book on the subject.










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The United States may or may not in the future be involved in a war where the very survival of this nation is at stake. In the event that it does come to pass, I hope our leaders and generals are not full of this “Because we NOW do not accept Total War as valid” crap.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 3:33 PM
‘Nuff said.
RightOFLeft on February 22, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Oh, cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it. If seeing your cities in charred, smoldering ruins upsets you, then don’t establish a totalitarian state, or try to subjugate the rest of the world. Karma’s a bitch.
morganfrost on February 22, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Ha….which do you think they will fight the hardest, an uprising of Americans fed up with the government or an invasion of drug armies from Mexico?
genso on February 22, 2009 at 3:38 PM
The Blitz was horrible. And the germans used incendiaries, too, long before the RAF/USAF retaliated. I remember seeing the book of remembrance for the victims they have in Westminster Abby. At first I didn’t know what it was and thought it odd that page after page of names had the same address or street address. They were mostly women and children, too.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 3:39 PM
Revisionist history — It’s not just in the U.S. anymore.
Christian Conservative on February 22, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Genso, based on the events in Waco and Ruby Ridge, I know the answer.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Ehh, not really
If I remember correctly
The 6th SS Panzer had already cleared Dresden prior to the raid
The railyard was NOT targeted
Bomber Harris himself I believe said the purpose of the raid was to kill as many Germans as possible and break the civilian will to resist
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Exactly….concerns for civilian deaths only applies to foreign civilians.
genso on February 22, 2009 at 3:43 PM
For 45 years the East German communists use the anniversary for the same damn reason. Communists and fascists are birds of a feather.
RobCon on February 22, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Sorry, quoted the wrong post above
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 3:45 PM
If you accept the principle that deliberately killing innocent people is intrinsically evil (informed Catholics do, varies for other Christians, atheists and such obviously make it up as they go – which is why they have such a horrible record historically for genocides/civilian massacres) then it follows that striking civilian targets for the intended purpose of killing women and children is wrong, period. No circumstances (‘end the war sooner’, ‘they’re doing it too’) change this simple fact. Back in the Crusades an entire Christian army got excommunicated by the Pope for doing it.
The only possible justification would be that the intended target is not the civilians, rather it is the industrial complex and the civilians are collateral casualties that would be avoided if it were possible to do so. This was clearly not the case in the area bombing of Germany in 1945: the stated goal was to make the civilians suffer in order to put pressure on the regime to capitulate. Furthermore, bombers were quite capable of hitting industrial complexes rather than civilian areas – they had an accuracy of roughly a 500 yards even for high altitude bombing. Also HE bombs could be used instead of incendiaries and nukes in order to completely wipe out the intended target without killing hundreds of thousands of civilians for miles around.
You can’t use an intrinsically evil means to achieve an end, no matter how worthy the end. It would be like making a cake with 1 oz of arsenic and saying “well the end result is really good, just overlook the single bad ingredient”. One unjustifiable ingredient spoils the whole. The end does not justify the means. Ethics 101.
Gaunilon on February 22, 2009 at 3:45 PM
Vonnegut got, and popularized, much of his false information about Dresden from Holocaust denier David Irving.
exception on February 22, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Please see this USAF page:
The Bombing of Dresden.
End of story.
Shy Guy on February 22, 2009 at 3:49 PM
If you cannot get to the link I posted above, here is the cached page copy.
Shy Guy on February 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Did you know that the reason that domesticated rabbits can’t survive in the wild is because the cute lil wild ones kill them.
- The Cat
P.S. I wouldn’t call a people that stood by as homeless, disabled, the mentally ill, gypsies, foreign nationals, as well as the Jews were carted off and slaughtered as innocent.
MirCat on February 22, 2009 at 3:55 PM
The ORIGINAL plan was to shut down the 6th SS Panzer going through. You assume the allies had perfect knowledge that they had (considering they missed the whole buildup to the Bulge can see why they might miss that)
The belief was that the civilians spotted in the town were actually the german troops. Hence that is why the town and not the rail yard was targeted.
And Im sure after the bomb raid went bad Harris had to come up with some defense of the bombing. Its human nature to switch reasons when things go wrong.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 3:55 PM
The only to fight a war, is to fight to win.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Japan and Germany declared war on the US. This was a world war and the most unspeakable atrocities were perpetrated on US and more so on Asian and European victims of their aggression. They richly earned their fates. The revisionists and apologists can go to hell. Vonnegut is already there…
jsanderssr on February 22, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Too good not to share.
This lady just stood up
in the back of the theater -
and yelled:
“I smell smoke!”
Mind you -
it is just a rumor.
Came to me as:
“Got this today from my wife who ran into a friend of ours. Our friend is in a high position at one of the large Banks. Her position requires her to oversee certain functions at 70 Banks region wide. She was almost in tears as she related this to my wife, says she has been crying now for days and her husband is at his wits end. She said that she and other key personnel got word that as of this coming MONDAY at least 50 American Banks will be “Nationalized”.
Now you’ve gotten it.
From a friend of a friend -
four times removed.
I would not be passing that on -
but it has just now come to my attention that on
TUESDAY President Obama will be making a speech
to a joint session of Congress at 8:00 p.m. EST
which will be broadcast over prime time TV.
I am sure that he will be saying:
“Everyone remain calm”.
Reminds me of the story
of the passengers in the airliner
who smelled smoke -
and then the pilot and co-pilot
carrying parachutes
walked down the aisle
towards the back exit saying:
“Everyone remain calm -
we are going for help.”
- Bruce Beach
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Thank you, sir. Hamas salutes you.
radiofreevillage on February 22, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Great link. I thought I knew about this, but I the facts are more complex than what you read in general histories of the war.
Ted Torgerson on February 22, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Hitler wasnt elected to the Chancellorship he was appointed in a deal. His party really never had a chance of becoming the majority.
Which is why the “Do away with the electoral college” crowd scares the hell out of me. Hitler would win in that kind of setting in any country.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:05 PM
One can have an immoral war and act morally, and one can have a moral war and act immorally.
The real morality of a war, moral or immoral, is to get it over as soon as possible, achieve victory, the destruction of an enemy’s ability and will to fight, and limit the pain and suffering of non-combatants to the extent that doing so does not place our service members at grave risk. This can be done in as moral a way as one can…if one is a moral leader.
Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki have to be looked at through the optics of 1942-45…not the revisionist optics of 2009. This is where studying history, and the history of war, can contribute to any current geopolitical situation where diplomacy has failed and options are limited — surrender, accommodation, or going to war to protect one’s life as a nation.
The Iraq War being a case in point…several large lessons of history were ignored, even though the war on the ground, from a purely tactical perspective, were pretty darn marvelous. The speed and surgical precision of our efforts on the ground enabled us to drive Marine M1A1′s down the river road while Baghdad Bob on the opposite bank sputtered about the Americans being destroyed outside of Baghdad.
But lessons on consolidation of the battle area, establishing military government, enacting prudent civil affairs in a combat zone, protecting the civilian population, establishing first martial law and then incrementally establishing civil law, bringing former enemy civilians to our side immediately and so forth just weren’t put in place, so afraid we were about being seen as “occupiers” in an Islamic land. We were occupiers. Apparently that memo never got out. There are other such lessons, but this thread is about Dresden.
Was the Dresden Raid a crime? No. It was deadly. More civilians than enemy combatants died. Hundreds of years of irreplacible cultural heritage was lost in the flames. The civilian population did not rise up and throw out the jackbooted thugs who got them into the war. But, in context of the period 1939-1945, Dresden was a target, a simple spot on the map, something of value to the enemy…
What seems to be lost to many (especially on the Left) is that in putting Dresden in a 2009 context and trying to draw inferences that it was a crime then, thus a crime now, removes from all consideration the impact on our ability as a nation to adequately defend ourselves against an enemy who has no such qualms and misgivings. As such it is worse than appeasement, it is collaboration.
The real crime seems to be that as a nation, in our apparent desire to be liked, loved, by any and all players; those same players, given the opportunity and the means, would have no second thoughts at all of taking advantage of our national inadequacy to their benefit, and in as advantageous a manner as possible, to include the wholesale murder of our innocent civilians.
coldwarrior on February 22, 2009 at 4:09 PM
When Bush erred in Iraq wasnt that he didnt know that the insurrection would happen so swiftly. But rather that the Muslim would would see that removing Saddam was seen as attacking Islam itself.
What turned from a war to remove saddam transformed into a war between Islam and the west. Bush didnt realize the extend that the Islamic leaders would denounce him and the MSM would readily jump into attack the US using Al Qaeda Propaganda.
Bush had far more enemies abroad and at home than he knew and that is what undermined his presidency not Iraq.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:13 PM
Fantasy about human nature does not trump the reality of human nature. Machiavelli 101.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 4:14 PM
I wouldn’t change a thing.
America, love it or leave it (that means you Soetoro).
ex-Democrat on February 22, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Not a FIFY per se, just my take.
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM
War is hell.
reaganaut on February 22, 2009 at 4:19 PM
If in war one put Mother Teresa in charge, one lose war.
- Sun Tzu’s Nephew
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 4:21 PM
Once again if memory serves me correctly, (don’t feel like searching through 100′s of books at the moment) When the 6th SS switched fronts for operation spring awakening, it was handled like operation Wacht am Rhine, all orders were hand carried. Additionally all the SS units traveled under false unit designations, to include removing their cuff titles. Did the allies know that 6th SS was moving to the east, probably. Did they know the destination and the timetable, probably not.
Was the Dresden railyard a legitimate target, absolutely.
I contend however that using the transfer of the 6th SS was a post raid excuse. If the railyards were in fact the primary target, why then did the British bomber force have the city center targeted instead?
I love WWII history, and will discuss almost anything, but no contention has ever been reached on this, and using the available information, one can form an opinion either way.
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 4:22 PM
I admit I LOVe the left and their rationalizations.
Bush = Hitler for wiretaps and Gitmo
But Al Qaeda uses the handicap as unwilling suicide bombers and blows up girls schools and beheads people = Freedom Fighters.
They want to argue moral equivilancy based on inhuman behavior being acceptible simply because people not of Iraq entered the country to fight the US to impose a totalitarian nation on Iraq is somehow superior to the US ?
That kind of logic isnt based on morality but on pure hatrid of the US.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:23 PM
The truth of the matter is that the Allied Airforces were increasingly finding it hard to find targets to hit. As stated before there was a major feeling in Allied Circles that the war was won and the sooner it was over the better for everyone.
The last year of WWII was probably the most brutal (not counting the Holocost) of the war. But it would not have been any less brutal if the Allies had used kid gloves at the end.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:28 PM
The real war crime was Hitler not surrendering earlier so that Germany would not be bombed to rubble and hundreds of thousands of Germans killed.
The other war crime was the U.S. high command at the end of WWII allowing the Russians to take over the eastern part of Germany and the eastern European countries that formed the future Soviet bloc.
Why was it terrible that Hitler and Germany took over countries in Europe such as France, Poland, Italy, etc., but it was okay for Stalin and the Russians to take over Poland, Latvia, east Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.?
albill on February 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM
No utopia? No Star Federation? The indian’s weren’t Pan?
Thank gawd!
Limerick on February 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM
should a rabid dog attack you, do not take time to calibrate the appropriateness of your response
notagool on February 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM
I’m not disagreeing with what you wrote, nor am I advocating that kid gloves should have been used.
I think that upon finding out the death toll (Dresden was a designated civilian refugee center for the germans), the British had an “oh shit” moment and had to justify the bombing.
Just my toughts…:)
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 4:35 PM
I can remember before 1941 when I asked my big brother, “Will Hitler bomb us?” I remember Dec 7 1941 and when my Dad volunteered for the draft to spare my older brother and Dad was turned down because of his age. People were scared to death. Could our nation survive? Now we are a super power, no one can really inflict harm on us and survive but when you are in a life or death struggle like then, things look different. You really have to live in an era to judge it. Time warps everything and I have been lucky enough to live long enough to understand that. You would have done anything to stop the madness of that age.
Herb on February 22, 2009 at 4:38 PM
I agree that the Allies suffered from target error in the case of Dresden.
But does that make it a warcrime ? I dont think so. Maybe some in the allied command wanted revenge on the germans (The Brits had suffered alot with the blitz and the V1s and V2s. Was hard to say “Oh by the way old chap its not that fair for you to target german cities the same way’) but I feel that things could have been far nastier if the Nazis hadnt folded at the end.
An Abomb used in Europe would have created an even more anti US feeling in Europe than now exists.
But still the main anti US feeling is more economically driven than foreign policy driven. That is the dirty little secret of europe.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:40 PM
It was definitely targeted. See link posted by Shy Guy.
Uh, no.
The Eighth Air Force raids against the city’s railway facilities on 14 and 15 February resulted in severe and extensive damage that entirely paralyzed communications. The city’s passenger terminals and major freight stations, warehouses, and storage sheds were, when not totally destroyed, so severely damaged that they were unusable. Roundhouses, railway repair and work shops, coal stations, and other operating facilities, were destroyed, gutted, or severely damaged. The railway bridges over the Elbe river–vital to incoming and outgoing traffic–were rendered unusable and remained closed to traffic for many weeks after the raids.51
The specific target objectives in the Dresden bombings were….for the American Eighth Air Force, the Dresden Marshalling Yards and railway facilities.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Thread lightly. Doesn’t seem to be much middle ground conceded on this topic today.
But make no mistake, it was a viable target. My question earlier was what it was targeted with. Incendiaries as opposed to HE.
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 4:43 PM
However you feel about this, if you ever have the chance, go there. Dresden is an incredible city to visit. You will be altered.
Entelechy on February 22, 2009 at 4:44 PM
Because that is where the war industries were!!!!! Jeesh.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 4:46 PM
My apologies if you thought I was advocating that the bombing was a war crime, that was not my intention. I was only debating the reasons for bombing Dresden. I contend it was done to break the will of the germans to continue resisting, verses a tactical strike against troops or industry.
:)
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 4:47 PM
Have you walked out of the train station in Koln at night?
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 4:48 PM
That doesnt invalidate my statement. The railroads were bombed and the civilians spotted in Dresden were believed to be the 6th SS Panzer stuck there waiting for the railyards to be repaired.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 4:48 PM
The 15th Law of Power (Robert Green, The 48 Laws of Power):
CRUSH YOUR ENEMY TOTALLY
This was TOTAL WAR, no quarter given or received. Having Dresden intact gave strength to the Nazis. To not destroy it weakened the Allied chances of victory. The only people that seem to understand that philosophy today are the Muslim terrorists who claim that women and children, even infants, of the Infidels are “Enemy Soldiers.” They have been at total war with us for quite some time. We haven’t realized this and are using the same type of restraining tactics like a policeman that is trying to stop a shop lifter to combat them. It wont work.
DL13 on February 22, 2009 at 4:49 PM
A good question, but they both kill.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 4:49 PM
Wrong again
While Dresden did have small factories engaged in military production (optics/clothing etc) it did not have any true heavy industry. Also most industry is not concentrated in the city center, but on the outskirts.
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 4:53 PM
War against civilians other than those directly employed/involved in the war effort is wrong. All other targets are fair game, including civic (e.g. rail facilities) and cultural infrastructures (e.g. museums concealing armaments)if they clearly are related to war efforts. Efforts should be made to determine this scrupulously. No war crime in this matter, but too much retribution mixed in with the legitimate aims.
Mason on February 22, 2009 at 4:54 PM
So, it doesn’t matter whether you live or die but how you fight the war? We’re not talking about a game; this ain’t football or a stock transaction.
I do not think anybody is in favor of purposely targeting civillians, but with the weapons of WWII, it was inevitable that civillians would die in large numbers. The British evacuated a lot of children from London during the Blitz, what did Hitler order?
Watch gun camera footage from WWII, and watch the locomotives that are strafed, it is quite likely that a civilian train crew is killed in that attack.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 4:56 PM
It sure as hell does. The RAF goal was to destroy the war industry that was placed deliberately through out the city center. They did not divert their plans. They also bombed at night. The USAF goal was to destroy the rail lines and facilities which they did. They did not divert their plans from the RR to imaginary troops they saw in Dresden.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Not having total war solves nothing. It only gets a lot of our young folks killed for nothing. ( police action Korea, Viet Nam )
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 4:57 PM
No, I would never walk out of a train station, alone, at night, anywhere, except in Tokyo and Singapore.
I have walked out of several large known European cities’ train stations in the day time and it was scary enough just to hail a taxi, Mercedes types as they mostly are.
Sorry for the ot.
Entelechy on February 22, 2009 at 4:57 PM
This is true, generally when one plans/and engages in a war. However, the Dresden raid, timining, and so much more, can not be answered abstractly and simply.
Entelechy on February 22, 2009 at 5:00 PM
Sources?
What industry was inside the center?
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 5:02 PM
As you walk out of the station at nignt, you enter a Stadtplatz where a beautifully lit cathedral greets you. It is a most impressive sight.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 5:03 PM
An Englishman, George MacDonald Fraser, writes about his feelings regarding Nagasaki and Hiroshima in his war memoir “Quartered Safe Out Here.” Begins page 215, hardbound (available still in soft cover). He was Brit infantry in Burma, 1945. What he describes must be what our soldiers felt too. Much recommended.
Archie Noble on February 22, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Patton was of like mind.
If we do [let the Russians take over Eastern Europe], then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!
- George Patton
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:05 PM
The Germans were pretty desperate and had diversified much of their industries to small manufacturing facilities within the city, which would be harder to take out in one strike.
DL13 on February 22, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Bull. The OKH in secret memos recognized Dresden’s industrial importance. It had both factories on the outskirts and in the city center. I believe about 104 were in the city center. They were placed there so revisionists like you would come along one day and whine about how we were picking on the Nazis. Apparently, it worked. The OKH, Russians, RAF, and the US recognized Dresden’s strategic importance. That you disagree is irrelevant.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:07 PM
I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle.
- Barry Goldwater
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Those of you who actually believe that the US Army Air Corps could drop a bomb into a pickle barrel from 20,000 feet with the Norden Bombsight, I have the deed to this wrought iron tower in Paris, and I am selling it for scrap.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Yes, I’ve seen it many times from the ICE, day and night, and in the day time, visiting.
Entelechy on February 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM
The Japanese did the same.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM
With hindsight, it might have been better had the British and Americans left Dresden alone, so the Germans on the Eastern front could hold out a bit longer and kill a few tens of thousands more Russians, while the British and Americans hot-footed it to Berlin. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the raid, it perhaps ended up doing more harm than good given how things turned out.
EnglishMike on February 22, 2009 at 5:12 PM
For starters, you could try reading the Taylor book. And lord knows there are enough history forums that discuss Dresden ad nauseum. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=6
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:13 PM
You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension
Where am I whining about picking on the nazis?
I’m saying the bombing was done to break the will of the german populace. Break the will of the people, shorten the war.
Still waiting on your list of essential war industries in the city center.
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Uh, no. The longer the war continued, the more Jews and other “undesirables” including our own POWs were murdered.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:15 PM
Quid pro quo.
A bad pun, but if Nazi Germany couldn’t take the heat, then they should’ve stayed out of the proverbial kitchen.
It’s war. It’s not supposed to be pretty. It’s supposed to be decisive. Calling Dresden a war crime ex post facto is a little lame, when considering the context.
bluelightbrigade on February 22, 2009 at 5:16 PM
If only Patton had been President instead of FDR.
Zoit, I just thought of something.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Not to argue and not to digress but Patton’s intelligence unit knew the Germans had a buildup going on. They were awake and constantly monitoring German radio traffic. He had response planning underway before the German offensive began.
Archie Noble on February 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM
War is never nice and the quicker it is ended, the shorter the misery.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 5:20 PM
The Germans didn’t actually murder very many of our POW’s, about 2% I believe. The Japaneses murdered about 50%.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:21 PM
And you seem to have no problem pulling “facts” out of your ass. The USAF Historical Analysis of the Dresden raid was linked to and quoted but you choose to ignore it. There is the Taylor book on Dresden you can read. If you expect me to name the 104 industries off the top of my head, you can wait for ever. It’s in the Taylor book. However, like the other link, I am sure you will never read it.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:24 PM
I consider dying from starvation, exhaustion, and neglect murder. And as far as I’m concerned, one is too many.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Well, one is always too many though, isn’t it? Myself, if I could not have 100% odds in my favor, I would go with 98% rather than 50%.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Left wing nuts and Nazi convergence. What next by the left? Antisemitism?/
pat on February 22, 2009 at 5:30 PM
BTW, just so there is no misunderstanding, the 2%, which is a figure I read decades ago, was from all causes, murder, “murder”, etc. For the Japanese it was 50% from all causes, murder, “murder”, etc.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Just give me a reference that 104 industries were inside the city center then??
Not just in the city or surrounding area’s?
You do know city centers are primarily residential area’s in europe, with industry on the outskirts?
And yes, I do happen to know what industry was concentrated in the Dresden area
husker3000 on February 22, 2009 at 5:37 PM
I had an uncle and father in-law who were in the Bataan “nice” march.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 5:39 PM
I remember decades ago my mother telling me that she was so glad that my dad had got orders for Germany, she was an army secretary and saw them before anyone else. I didn’t understand that at first. I said, “I would have thought you would have been wishing that he didn’t get orders at all or not till much later or was one of the lucky ones who got orders to go to some base in the U.S. She said that she was glad he got orders to go to Germany because the alternative was Japan and I think that she was mainly thinking about if he got captured, which he actually almost did in Germany. Two out of a squad of 4 during the Battle of the Buldge were captured. Both made it out and in one piece at the wars end.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 5:52 PM
The only problem I have with this dredging up of the Dresden raid is that it may be a ploy to emasculate us, preventing us from successfully prosecuting a future wide-spread war.
OldEnglish on February 22, 2009 at 6:06 PM
I always like it when revisionist, safely seated in their warm cozy homes today, preach from the ‘high moral ground’ of that safety.
To put a point on it; fuck you!
I recall a film where Goebbels inquires of the audience “Do you want Total War?”. Well, they wanted it, they got it.
As for the Japanese; let’s see, Rape of Nanking, bombing of huge population centers, use of biological weapons on the Chinese, unprovoked attack at Pearl Harbor…..yeah, they too can speak “from the high moral ground”.
GarandFan on February 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Mentioned that earlier in this thread.
(That’s what I like about you, OldEnglish…you never miss the larger picture, unlike a lot of others.)
This process has been going on for a couple decades or so…make all things relative, make morality on a sliding scale according to political beliefs, apply poll-driven, feelings-based restraints on our ability to conduct foreign and military policy, limit our ability to protect and defend the Constitution and our national well-being.
coldwarrior on February 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
This is what happens when you get your history from some guy you saw ranting in the park one day – even worse, publications like the National Vanguard (a white supremacist mag) or David Irving.
Believe it or not, only a handful of college history professors hold radical opinions. Most are moderates.
KillerKane on February 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Dresden fire bombing was one of a only few embarrassments Churchill had. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the only way to get the Japaneses to surrender and thus were justified. Invasion of mainland of japan would have caused a high number of casualties on both sides. Just read about the Japan campaign (The battle of Iwo Jima and Okinawa) and look how many causalities were on both sides and multiply that by 100. Truman definitely made the correct decision. Dresden, not even in the same category.
nazo311 on February 22, 2009 at 6:51 PM
Communists and fascists are
birds of a featheridentical.Read “The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century” by A. James Gregor, Yale Press, 2000.
oldleprechaun on February 22, 2009 at 6:52 PM
History lesson follows –
Around 1938 or 1939 the United States passed an embargo on raw materials traded with Japan in order to keep Japan from conquering China or to limit their abiity ot make war on China. Japan has zero oil and zero iron ore; an embargo of raw materials would have halted Japanese expansion literally in its tracks. The attack on Pearl Harbor was just one part of three big days for Japan. Japan invaded Maylasia, the Dutch East Indies, and also moved on the Philippines by Tuesday. They needed oil from the Dutch, and before they could take it they had to neutralize the US Pacific Fleet and isolate the British in Singapore. “The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere” lasted about three years.
Those are the events in a simple blog comment, you may talk about unintended consequences if you wish.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 7:10 PM
That would have increased the risk that a coup in Germany would replace Hilter would someone who could have negotiated a peace with Germany as a buffer. Who knows how a Nazi Germany and Stalin at peace again would have turned out.
pedestrian on February 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
“Critics accuse the Allies of deliberately attacking a civilian population center with little military value as a payback for Nazi attacks on Britain”
Nope.
It was a show of force for the SOVIETS.
It was a brutal demonstration of US, UK might.
It was intended to give the SOVIETS a reason not to roll over all of Europe.
It showed the SOVIETS just exactly what we were willing to do.
DSchoen on February 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
It wasn’t LeMay’s decision — it was FDR’s. FDR had already shown himself to be a racist with the Japanese American internment. Japan’s merchant marine was down to 10% of its prewar size at the point of Okinawa, and was shrinking by another 10% each month as US submarines attacked Japanese coastal shipping with impunity and aerial mine-laying in Japan’s harbors continued apace. Since Japan was totally dependent on sea-based commerce, we held the means to throttle Japan into surrender without placing one foot on their shores.
We also held Okinawa, and the Japanese were already laid bare to bombing raids from that island; American planes roamed at will over the Home Islands.
Also, as we had learned in the island-hopping campaigns, you didn’t need to take the strongpoints to reduce the Japanese — you just had to isolate and starve them out (again because the Japanese required resupply from the sea).
A single nuke off Tokyo Bay would have sent the same message as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nukes, and with far less loss of life. But we needed to try out both flavors of our new toys to see what they would do against real cities, and we (and the world) certainly found that out. They still stand as the only wartime use of nuclear weapons; maybe that’s the good side of FDR’s decision.
As for Dresden, it may not have been a war crime then, but it certainly would be considered one now. The USAAF customarily used precision bombing in daylight raids to destroy its targets, but in the case of Dresden used mostly incendiary munitions — a policy change with respect to European operations. The British had a different view — they regularly used incendiaries on their German raids — perhaps because the Germans themselves were using them on London. Both the British and the Germans favored night-time bombing operations, which saved crews at the risk of missed targets, while the Americans favored daylight operations.
But doing something optional which increases the potential for harm to civilians, because your enemy does it, is not correct, in my mind.
unclesmrgol on February 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
They would not have believed something they didn’t see. People still have nonsensical beliefs about 9/11. How are they going to believe they should surrender because the US exploded some atoms at sea.
pedestrian on February 22, 2009 at 7:18 PM
Diplomacy and sanctions seldom work, with a determined foe. Iran comes to mind.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 7:21 PM
The continued firebombing and the nuking of Japanese cities were under Truman’s tenure – and Truman made the right decisions. Where Truman failed was that he didn’t take himself out after the war, since it had obviously been too emotionally draining on him. His declaration that the US would no longer pursue victory in war, but would switch to limited war with a desire to just “not lose” in Korea was a huge mistake and started the silliness of tying our hands behind our backs to give the enemy tons of chances to beat us. We live with the problems that he introduced to this very day, especially in the twisted faux-moralistic ravings of the left and the morons who don’t understand that war is deadly serious business.
progressoverpeace on February 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM
Leftist Liberals, Islamic terrorists, neo Nazis all have one common bond..
They absolutely positively hate both the western world and its freedoms.
their hatred is so intense now they are willing to set aside their differences to work together against their common enemy Meaning ALL OF US.
FrontPageMag.com has an excellent article i read about a book called united in hate..
Specifically calling out this scenario where all kinds of normally diametrically opposed groups unite together with one objective in mind..
To Completely annihilate the United States of America..
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=90C2C354-2149-4D79-9AC0-E803D0006934
Its a really good read i want to buy the book myself when it comes out..
You see this same logic here..
If Iran or Islamic terrorists suceed in making an american city go byby using a nuke.. I guarantee you each on and Every democrap in congress would be on tv demanding
We apologize to the poor terrorists who are blowing up our cities and killing Americans…
And i DO believe with all of my heart
that day is coming REAL SOON..
Just like on Glen beck with that war gaming scenario
Those are lightweight easy scenarios
They just didnt mention these idiots would come crawling otu of the woodwork
I really believe it is time we begin to start organizing
Talking to each other
Just my thoughts
jcila on February 22, 2009 at 7:29 PM
progressoverpeace, I think the Chinese crossing the Yalu River was the shock, that forced Truman to change strategy. Thankfully it also was the beginning of the end of McArthur’s career.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM
Racist bah. German and Italians were also interned. Also, Japan did not want to surrender even after second atomic bomb. The military almost took over the government in a coup, when they learned that the emperor wanted to surrender. And death by starvation is not very nice. The Japanese were very fanatical and an invasion or starvation was not a practical solution.
Johan Klaus on February 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM
My guess is that those few posters crying Dresden war crimes are supporters of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran as well. Their dirty little secret is that the only reason that they think Dresden was a crime is that in their heart of hearts they think the wrong side won WWII.
jerryofva on February 22, 2009 at 7:32 PM
I guess I set off this daisy chain on the other thread OT by making a comment to Blake when he said something about “Firebombing” in general. I didn’t know Dresden was even a hot topic of discussion right now with the left.
Is that why it’s such a touchy subject with commenters here?
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 7:40 PM
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