Was the Dresden Raid a war crime?
posted at 1:38 pm on February 22, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
When discussing war crimes during World War II, two events usually get thrown out as indictments of the Allies: dropping atomic weapons on the Japanese and the raid of Dresden, in which 25,000 people died mostly of the raging fire that swept the German city. Critics accuse the Allies of deliberately attacking a civilian population center with little military value as a payback for Nazi attacks on Britain. This perception gained a lot of credence through Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse 5, his autobiographical tale inspired by his eyewitness experience at Dresden as a POW.
Interestingly, though, Germans apparently tend to view it differently, especially since one particular group has seized on Dresden as a means of rehabilitating Hitler. Der Spiegel interviewed historian Frederick Taylor and revealed the much more complicated role of Dresden in the war than the post-bombing spin credits, and still calls into question the Allied strategy in its bombing campaign late in the war:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Still, there was certainly more to the Dresden air raid than a desire to destroy civilian morale, wasn’t there?
Taylor: Certainly. The Dresden attack was directly linked to the conduct of the war elsewhere — in this case on the Eastern Front. In Feb. 1945, Dresden was a major transport and communication hub less than 120 miles from the advancing Russians. The aim of the bombing was quite deliberately to destroy the center of the city, thereby making the movement of German soldiers and civilians impossible.
Nor was Dresden uninvolved in war production:
SPIEGEL ONLINE: The inflated casualty figures have proven quite resistant to academic research. The myth of Dresden as a victim of Allied aggression is one that refuses to go away. How innocent was Dresden really?
Taylor: Dresden was undeniably a beautiful city, a center of the arts and a symbol of all that was great about pre-Nazi German humanism. It was also quite strongly Nazi and a major industrial center. Its light industries, ranging from factories producing typewriters and cigarettes to furniture and candy, had overwhelmingly been converted to war use after 1939. Around 70,000 workers in the city are thought to have been involved in war-related work. Its regional railway directorate was heavily involved in the war effort on the eastern front and also in the transport of prisoners within the concentration camp system. The question therefore is not whether Dresden contained legitimate bombing targets, but whether the method and intensity of the February 1945 bombing was justifiable.
But in questioning the Allies’ strategy, who benefits now?
Taylor: The neo-Nazis use the anniversary in two ways. First, as a straight propaganda bludgeon against the victors of World War II, an exemple of the Allies’ allegedly criminal conduct of the war against Germany. Second, more subtly, as a tool to relativize Adolf Hitler’s Holocaust. They refer to a “bomb holocaust” of the Allies against the civilian inhabitants of German cities, wildly inflating the figures involved and, of course, underplaying the number of Jews, Sinti, Roma, homosexuals and political prisoners, and other millions of victims of the real Holocaust. It is this two-fold advantage of the Dresden anniversary protests that is especially attractive to the neo-Nazis and their associates. Plus, many otherwise respectable people in Dresden and elsewhere, many of whom grew up with the post-war myths, continue to believe in the inflated casualty figures and in the criminality of the Allied bombing campaign.
The methodology can certainly be criticized without making it an argument for “war crimes”. The Germans manufactured arms in Dresden, and by their own conduct of the war, made that a permissible target for Allied bombers. The use and intensity of incendiary bombs could certainly be questioned; the resultant firestorm literally sucked the oxygen out of the city and asphyxiated thousands, which Vonnegut saw first-hand.
But the use of incendiary bombs on factories and railheads was not a war crime, nor was particularly controversial during that war, as the Germans had been dropping them on London for years by that point. The Allies had a right to destroy the Nazi war production system, including in Dresden. They had a limited number of options for bombing targets, and the intensity can reasonably be assigned to an accuracy that had eluded the Allies on their night bombing runs for most of the war.
And let’s not forget that at the same time as the Allies raided Dresden, the Germans were launching rocket attacks with only marginal thoughts of accuracy against the British civilian centers. If Hitler had the ability to create a Dresden in London, he would not have hesitated to wreak it.
I give Der Spiegel credit for getting past the slogans and confronting history as it happened. Be sure to read the entire interview.
Update: Ed Driscoll took a lengthier look at the question in 2005 while reviewing Taylor’s book on the subject.










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Very funny Ed.
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 1:41 PM
Answer, No!
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM
War Crime? Isn’t everyone who may have been responsible dead? Let’s move on! Noting to see here.
Dread Pirate Roberts VI on February 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Dresden was a target because the Russians were screaming bloody hell because the Germans were transfuring the buok of the 6th SS Panzer Army through the area to the east soon after the battle of the Bulge.
Dresden was a major rail transfur point
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 1:43 PM
No, the Nazis unleashed untold horrors upon the world with the overwhelming support of the German people. The got what they deserved. Same for Japanese. (See Rape of Nanking) I also have little sympathy for the 20 million dead Soviets. Stalin’s alliance with Hitler made it all possible.
jerryofva on February 22, 2009 at 1:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 1:44 PM
My German 501 teacher was Jewish, and told us that the argument, “Ja, aber Hitler hat die Autobahn gebaut” was often indicative of Nazi sympathies.
Sekhmet on February 22, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Meanwhile Dresden is being used by German Neo Nazis as a rallying cry
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Ask the Russians – they requested the raid (at the time Dresden was a major Nazi transport point sixty miles behind the front line).
Realist on February 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Yes, it was a war crime. We need a do over.
Wade on February 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Actually the only crime is this is taking up band space.
Wade on February 22, 2009 at 1:49 PM
I call Bull$h!t… if it was sucking oxygen out of the air what replaced said air when it went into the fire? we’re talking about gases here… in an open city. maybe you mean smoke filled the city and people suffocated. air engulfs the planet… air surrounds fire at all times… or the fire goes out. if anything air would be in abundance near an outdoor fire. not the opposite.
I just think you should be more clear… people suffocated or died from smoke inhalation, not pure lack of oxygen. it’s a great line for propaganda though… no doubt…
Kaptain Amerika on February 22, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Curtis Lemay won the war by destroying Germany’s and Japan’s will to fight.
After VE day,my dad who was a combat soldier in France, was transferred over to the unit that supposed to be on the front attack group into Japan. The anticipated over 90% casualties for his unit. The invasion of Japan would have made D-Day look like a girl scout picnic, and would have easily exceeded Antietum as AMerica’s bloodiest day. Estimates exceeded 50,000-100,000 combat deaths and years of guerilla activities, along with over a million Japanese deaths,mainloy civilians.
My mother was a combat nurse in the South Pacific and she was readied for the massive American casualties of the planned invasion.
Lemay’s solution: a couple of bombs over Japan, as well as the horrific firebombing of Tokyo, which killed more than the A-Bombs. And over a hundred million Japanese are now living peaceful and prosperous lives as our friends and allies.
TexasJew on February 22, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Probably. So what.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 1:59 PM
Well , in this revival of antisemitism:
Nazism = ideology of peace
Totaler Krieg = inner struggle
the_nile on February 22, 2009 at 2:00 PM
The Combined Strategic Bombing Campaign and the dropping the A-Bombs saved lives by ending the war sooner rather than later. Given the behavior of Germany and Japan over the territories they occupied, they have no claim to victimhood.
ignorantapathy on February 22, 2009 at 2:01 PM
I don’t really understand what you’re saying. The main way that smoke inhalation kills you is through lack of oxygen. http://www.emedicinehealth.com/smoke_inhalation/page2_em.htm It’s certainly more harmful than pure lack of oxygen, but it’s not misleading in any way to say they died of lack of oxygen. What is your point here?
tneloms on February 22, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Given those times and people? Even if all they did in Dresden was to feed orphan babies and tell light hearted jokes to passing trains full of Jews, I would still say…Burn all of Dresden and it’s little dog too.
There is no need to make excuses for Dresden, they are god damned lucky that extended coffee breaks at Los Alamos saved German cities from becoming famous for their glass.
Can’t win being pussies.
BL@KBIRD on February 22, 2009 at 2:03 PM
“And let’s not forget that at the same time as the Allies raided Dresden, the Germans were launching rocket attacks with only marginal thoughts of accuracy against the British civilian centers.”
Many of my grandfather’s family was killed in a V2 attack in London shortly before my GI dad was fighting over on the continent in the Big Red One. It went right through their house while they were huddled down in the basement and killed or injured almost everyone else on their street. So they were accurate enough.
Guess how much sympathy I feel for Gaza… answer- NOTHING!
TexasJew on February 22, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Silliness.
It was the 1940′s. Precision munitions didn’t exist and WW2 wasn’t some fuzzy, pussified, corrupt-UN-backed, hands-tied affair that gave the chattering classes and excuse to rant. It was all-out war against a foe we didn’t dare excuse through political correctness.
1. Holocaust
2. V2 Bombs
3. Malmedy
4. Treatment of the mentally ill and gay, or gypsies, or, well you name them…just don’t name a half-balled-hand-quivering-queer-moustachio’d-frustrated-liberal-arts-college-major.
I could go on and on in the list.
And the spineless German people have only themselves to blame for the recent resurrection of Nazism. But the only way Nazism can become a world threat is if it morphs into a cultural/civilization based movement and spreads throughout the Western World–a counter to Islamic Fascism. Both equally despicable and deadly.
But…Europeans are too tied to their just servitude to take up arms. They are too busy taking six weeks vacations to Thailand where they indulge themselves. The are too busy spending the hand-outs of their Socialist Govts; deluding themselves into the belief that the hand-outs will never stop.
Europe has become nothing more than a feed-lot, with the Europeans themselves playing the role of cattle.
Montana on February 22, 2009 at 2:04 PM
These discussions mirror the arguments over the fire bombing of Tokyo. Found among the burnt remains of bombed homes were press tools and other machinery civilians were using to manufacture arms and other materiel to help the war effort against America. Therefore they made their homes into legitimate military targets.
But those who want to “predict the past” and make out the Allies as the bad guys in WWII bury significant details like this in order to lie to our descendant generation, the Obama generation.
Crusty on February 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM
War is at best barbarism. Its glory is all moonshine. War is hell. War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over
- William Tecumseh Sherman
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Kini on February 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Taylor makes a point in the last paragraph of the interview that is serious food for thought, but the modern focus should be not on Dresden but instead on the success of the Marshall Plan.
whitetop on February 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Next War Crime discussion – the Romans at Carthage.
TooTall on February 22, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Kini on February 22, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Or Is george Bush a war criminal ? People dont have a real sense of what warcrimes truely are.
Its the deliberate targeting of civilians. Dresden wasnt bomb to kill civilians but rather to harm the german war machine.
William Amos on February 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM
The goal of those who hate America, those who hate freedom and liberty, are the same as anyone who would want to make Dresden a war crime.
Liberals, Marxists and Fascists are the criminals of the world.
JellyToast on February 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Clinton to issue an apologise
Kini on February 22, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Bombing of civilian centers was done with the intended purpose of destroying moral. The idea was that if you kill the women and the children, the men won’t have the will to fight anymore.
I think we have to be honest and admit two things; 1) the allies targeted women and children and 2) in a total war, killing women and children is fair game.
Today, that would not be allowed. Today we do not target women and children. Today, it would be considered a war crime. But today we are not fighting total war.
keep the change on February 22, 2009 at 2:09 PM
if you haven’t guessed it..THERE ARE NO CIVILIANS..didn’t 9/11 teach anyone anything?
war is total..get used to it…and when its not total war…we don’t get total victory…we end up with Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan….where ‘victory’ is only temporary…
right4life on February 22, 2009 at 2:09 PM
When Allied troops were taking over German cities and they hid in churchs and shot at Allied troops we rightly bombed them to their rightly end. If we had the balls to do this now we would not have the problems we have in Iraq, Afganistan or Pakistan. I never heard of anyone complaining about the Germans end and they did not even get the virgins at the end.
If you allow your leaders to run your country into the ground you may end up getting the same treatment as them.
MTZinIL on February 22, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Was the Dresden Raid a war crime? Absolutely not. Destruction of nazi germany, by all means necessary was a justified military necessity and a humanitarian act. The destruction of German cities was nazi germany’s own fault – should have surrendered.
runner on February 22, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Whereas Sherman’s burning of Atlanta…
(Curious what people think of that.)
kc8ukw on February 22, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Obama is dispatching Jimmy “Grin” Carter and Nelson “Ha Ha I was Communist All Along” Mandela to investigate claims that GW Bush and Karl Rove masterminded the Dresden bombing. A possible link to Palin and Jindal is expected to be found.
This independent investigation will focus exclusively on the Nazi-Anti-Bush-America crowd’s viewpoints and is funded by the Soros-For-A-Liberty-Free-America project. And NPR.
Montana on February 22, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Where is Sherman when you need him? Atlanta, Philly, Compton…..
MTZinIL on February 22, 2009 at 2:14 PM
A recession is when the other guy loses his job, a depression is where you or I lose our job.
A limited war is where the other guy is on the front lines, a total war is where you or I are on the front lines.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 2:14 PM
The idea that killing civilians creates a “War Crime” is a modern western concept which defies both logic, and reality.
IF the country is a Democracy, which Germany started out as, then the Citizens bear a DIRECT responsibility for what the government does, as IT CHOSE THEM. With Democracies, you cannot really divorce the Government, from the people, because the government is chosen by the people, and is held responsible BY the people.
Ergo… punishing the ones who chose the Government who started the war is a viable tactic. You need to “convince” the populace that they need to change the governments directioin.
War is horrible… and it should be the last resort… but once started, you need to make it as horrific as possible to your enemy, so they will think twice before starting another one.
“Civilized” war is an oxymoron, and IMO only leads to more wars.
Romeo13 on February 22, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Great question and topic, Ed. Clearly you have the facts right, and the only thing I would add comes from the DoD’s own report on Dresden (I don’t have a link, but you can find it with a little work), which address two important issues:
- Certainly Taylor is correct in that Dresden had become an important military target at that point in the war, with enormous logistical importance so close to the Eastern front, and many war manufacturing facilities. If the Allies sought to use the bombing there to crush Hitler, it was because of the things going on there, not because of some symbolic or emotional value in Dresden.
- Some critics use the dynamic of shifting populations during the evolution of the war to inflate population estimates dramatically in Dresden at the time of the attack, but factual analysis of the casualties there discounts the most hysterical of those estimates.
That said, there is no question that the mission was one of overwhelming destruction, intentionally inflicted. Some analyses cite the cause of death for most as “asphyxiation” because of the conflagration created by the fire, effectively sucking all of the oxygen out of the city.
Surely it must have been one of the most hellish events of the war.
Jaibones on February 22, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Any Mosque’s in Dresden at the time? Then you might have an argument.
BL@KBIRD on February 22, 2009 at 2:15 PM
the tokyo raid in march 1945 was worse..
right4life on February 22, 2009 at 2:15 PM
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
- William Tecumseh Sherman
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Kaptain Amerika ,
No, the way the raid was planned was that meteorologists determined when weather conditions would be best for the raid so that the winds approaching the city could be used to enhance the conflagration. It was the same plan as at Hamburg.
The center of the city was chosen because it had the largest percentage of medieval are buildings. These had old wood, and many layers of paint that would add fuel to the firestorm.
During the day, American bombers came in and dropped high explosive bombs in order to rubble the area and create large pile of tinder and other flammables.
That night, the British bombers came in a dropped incendiary bombs to ignite the rubbled center of the city.
As the flames grew in intensity, the winds blowing into the area created a virtual tornado of fire. This flaming vortex could be seen for many many miles. Estimates place it’s circular wind speed at over 100 mph at it’s most intense point. As it roared hotter and faster, it began to suck in more and more air from the surrounding areas to feed itself. It became a tornado, swirling and rising in hight many thousands of feet, melting glass, bricks, steel and iron, and incinerating everything around and within it in the same manner as the atomic bombs would in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Tens of thousands of people were found suffocated in shelters, subway tunnels, and surrounding areas because the firestorm had literally sucked the oxygen out of the air to feed itself. It wasn’t until the fires ran out of fuel, coupled with a shift in the winds, that it subsided, but it was several days before some areas could be entered.
Broken fire mains and blocked streets meant that most fires were left to burn themselves out, and emergency crews were simply unable to reach thousands of others.
It was the same in Hamburg, and, later, in Tokyo.
I am only putting out the facts here. It was a calculated and designed fire, and cost an unknown number of deaths. I am not certain that I would have supported such a raid, HOWEVER, I wasn’t there and I will not judge the actions of those responsible from this late a date. It happened. It helped to shorten the war. Let’s get on with things.
respects,
AW1 Tim on February 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM
PS So interesting to note the strange bedfellows of modern German leftist thought and the conservative Western Allied thought on Dresden. We rarely agree on anything, and my instinct would be to see them piling on the “war crime” bandwagon.
But because of the unique situation in Germany with the national shame over Nazism, this generally leftist community attacks anything which might support Hitler in any way, so we gain added support from leftist intellectuals (?) to the factual and nationalist viewpoints of the Allies. Sure makes it easier.
Jaibones on February 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM
-The Bataan Death March
-The Nanking Massacre
-The Gas Chambers
-The Concentration Camps
Montana on February 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM
I saw “Slaughterhouse-Five” during the height of the antiwar craziness at college, and I always thought that it was gratuitous American-hating crap.
There was something else that I always thought very troubling: the saintly German-American hero was under attack by the villainous uber-Jewish Ron Leibman, who plays a guy called Lazzaro, but in a Borscht Belt performance. Sickening, to say the least, yet I have almost never seen any critique that mentioned that…
Although many of my friends adored Vonnegut, I tossed out his other books and never read them. That was some disgusting moral equivalent crap in that movie and in his books..
TexasJew on February 22, 2009 at 2:18 PM
How is it that every detail of a seven decades old war is subject to liberal interpretation and everything Obama says has a three month expiration date?
Speakup on February 22, 2009 at 2:20 PM
I could care less what we were bombing. They started it. I think the idea of “war crimes” is a joke. War is violent and brutal, deal with it. If we are forced to send our men into harmsway because of another countries agression then that country should expect what it gets. If our men are in harms way then we should expend every ounce of gun powder on the enemy that we have in order to ensure our boys safety- whether its expended on enemy troops or points meant to demoralize them.
I wish we fought out enemies today the way we fought them back then.
eski502 on February 22, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Well said.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Pearl Harbor
Chi CHi Jima
Executions of the Captured Doolittle Raiders
It goes on and on…
hawkdriver on February 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM
Newsflash: The Lancet has just done a study on Dresden and the # killed. Turns out 2.3 million Germans were killed, and they all happened simply to make Hummel Figurines.
If Germany did want their cities firebombed, maybe they shouldn’t have started a war.
rbj on February 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM
I am currently studying in Bavaria, Germany and I have to slump down in my chair every time someone mentions Dresden.
It doesn’t seem to me, though, that they are as mad about the casualties as they are about the cultural damage. They always seem to mention the loss of the contents of the city itself… churches, museums, ect.
Before the war, Dresden was one of the real cultural centers of Europe, competing with Paris and Venice for its beauty and architecture. The firebombing left most of the city leveled. Many recognizable landmarks like the Frauenkirsche have been rebuilt, but Dresden will never reach its former glory.
Now I don’t have to feel as bad about it.
In addition to the potential massive loss of life that would result from an invasion, there was also the fear that Japan would get the bomb too. English ships had captured several German U-boats bound for Japan carrying Uranium, presumably for a weapon. Japan had two nuclear weapon development labs and in fact tested the bomb 6 days after the bombing of Hiroshima. They could have easily put a kamikaze and an A-bomb on a submarine and drove it into San Francisco Bay.
Glenn Jericho on February 22, 2009 at 2:26 PM
Bottom line. There are always going to be wars just because of mans worse instincts. To attempt to apply rules is somewhat simplistic,,there will always be an aggressor who does not”follow” in order to win. Then what. Escalation of force is not the answer or”equivalency”. You need to stop them,,,,no one has ever been talked to death.
retiredeagle on February 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM
TexasJew
No one fu*ks with Paul Lazzaro!
I never felt in either book nor movie that the character was Jewish. He would have been hauled off to a different kind of camp if Vonnegut had made him a Jew.
BL@KBIRD on February 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Indeed.
madne0 on February 22, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Good point!
Montana on February 22, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Another consideration is the war weariness that had set in by 1945. British manpower was completely tapped out and American manpower was approaching that state. It was a major factor in trying to end the war by Christmas 44. Britian and America needed the war over and war being war they were trying to speed up to that end.
(see Eisenhower at War….he gives a pretty bleak picture of the manpower pool from late 44/early 45)
Limerick on February 22, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Thanks for this article! Everyone’s too scared to dare debunk the Dresden ‘atrocities’. I remember being taught in high school, verbatim, that we should be ashamed America for that incident. It was AP European History and they tied it directly to AP English where we read Slaughterhouse 5.
I bet if I go back and read all my text books, it’ll seem like I was raised in the USSR.
“So it goes.”
Guess I should stop looking for the Tralfamadorians too.
Captain Elias on February 22, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Classic quotes from General Curtis “Hardass” Lemay (whose planes killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Germans and destroyed dozens of cities and military installations with firebombs and standard ordinance as well as the two atomic weapons)
“You want to know what war is – war is killing the enemy, and if you kill enough of them, they stop fighting.”
“Killing Japanese didn’t bother me very much at that time… I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal…. Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you’re not a good soldier.”
TexasJew on February 22, 2009 at 2:31 PM
I blame Bush.
Bishop on February 22, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Even if we were to learn in hindsight that the Dresden raid was pointless, the people making the decision to do the Dresden raid were military leaders sincerely trying to win a war as quickly as possible. It is morally reprehensible for our do-gooders to try paint them as evil, if they have not thought seriously for one second about what they would have done if they had to make such decisions.
We need to start articulating the evil of these moral revisionists who shriek about morality without any thought of context. Their shrieking permits more harm, rather than inhibits harm. I’m looking now at a pamphlet given to me by people who support the rights of the Gazans. It seems that they are worked up over a Palestinian new born who died because the guards wouldn’t let the mother over to an Israeli hospital. The object of the pamphlet is just to blame Israel without even asking why Israel may have such a policy. The pamphlet doesn’t even address the problem of Palestinian suicide bombers or such. The amoral, maudlin stance of this pamphlet does nothing to contribute rational debate about Israel that could actually solve the problem.
Of course, the right wing, too, is guilty of this policy. The disgusting lies of the “pro-life” movement against Margaret Sanger on the issue of race is another example of evil shrieking. Margaret Sanger was in reality on the tolerant, liberal side of race issues her entire life. The “pro-liars” take a few comments out of the context Sanger tailoring words to her audience and portray her as America’s Hitler. They may at least think to compare Sanger’s views to mainstream views of race during Sanger’s lifetime. Let’s remember intellectual honesty never hurt anyone’s arguments.
thuja on February 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Lemay, as well as Robert McNamara acknowledged that had they lost the way, they fully expected to be tried for war crimes.
crr6 on February 22, 2009 at 2:42 PM
There was a war to win, and every effort made was required in order to win.
The shame was in starting the war, not fighting to end the war.
Whiners would have war continue ad infinitum in order to make whatever point on which whiners whine. By their rule, no battle could be waged that would out pace the previous battle. Achievement and progress are outlawed. We’d be living through the lunacy of the trench warfare perpetuating WWI still, living in the Whiners 100 Year War, forever trying to placate, legitimize and appease “that’s not fair” someone was killed in war.
As per Der Spiegel’s sophistry, never presume that an intellectual German has only one iron in the fire. While making a perfectly clear and logical point for an article, be aware of the motivation for making that point, as well as what occurrences surround the point and the discussion. Be perceptive to what more there is to the ongoing political cat and mouse game than first meets the eye.
maverick muse on February 22, 2009 at 2:42 PM
2/13/45 Truthers
Dresden bombing was an inside job.
Roosevelt was a war-monger and terrorist. Cheney too.
Alex Jones is a genius… inf0wars.com.
/sarc
Gosh, I hate truthers.
Glenn Jericho on February 22, 2009 at 2:44 PM
War is hell, especially when it is retribution time. I ask myself, if the tables were turned would our enemies had been so kind to spare American and British cities? The answer is an emphatic NO! Just by looking at the track record of the Germans and Japanese we new we had to have a strategy to make them surrender as soon as possible or we might be the ones facing the first atomic bomb. We knew the Germans were close to having it and suspected the Japanese as well. We had also seen how fanatically fierce the Japanese soldiers were and didn’t want to have 1 million of our own casualties that it would take to capture Japan. We did what we needed to do to end the war as soon as possible. Was there an immense amount of suffering among the civilians? Absolutely. Would we have lost the war if we hadn’t adopted the same “No Holds Barred” attitude of our enemies? ABSOLUTELY!
DL13 on February 22, 2009 at 2:44 PM
The tide wasn’t that huge. I believe the study by German historians completed this year on the number of casualties, said that refugees did not stay in the city for more than a few days. It was just a brief resting point and they moved on. So, the city was not overflowing with refugees when attacked.
It was Goebbels who made up the figure of 250,000 killed.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Sanger in her own words Foolja. You can’t run and you can’t hide. No amount of your “spin” can take back her history.
Not Over.
1GooDDaDDy on February 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Greatest Allied WAR CRIME was committed by Democrat President for Life FDR with his refusal to deal with the German Resistance to Hitler since only they could’ve saved millions by ending the War & the Holocaust. FDR’s Administration as led by Democrat Marxist Traitor Alger Hiss was only interested in helping Stalin. At that stage of the WW II, only Democrats wanted to help the commies by slaughtering innocent civilians. A-bombs were dropped on the 2 most CHRISTIAN cities in Asia showing Democrats long time hatred for Chrisitianity. At the same time, Luftwaffe shot down 9,949 B-24s & B-17s defending Germany thanks to the efforts of the greatest fighter pilots yet developed.
Max47 on February 22, 2009 at 2:52 PM
Lemay, as well as Robert McNamara acknowledged that had they lost the way, they fully expected to be tried for war crimes.
crr6 on February 22, 2009 at 2:42 PM
You’re confusing your wars – a huge big war versus a shitty little “war”. And howe were we going to lose a war that was never actually declared?
Lemay did like his strategic nuke bombers, for sure. He was parodied in “Dr. Strangelove” as well..of course, Lemay was the kind of hardass who actually wins wars.
The only thing prior to 1960 that McNamara could have been put on trial and executed for was being the head of Ford when it rolled out the Edsel (which he actually opposed).
Now THAT car was a crime against Humamity!
TexasJew on February 22, 2009 at 2:52 PM
People who argue that we shouldn’t have dropped the bomb always say Japan was already defeated. The Japanese didn’t think so. A naval blockade in lieu of the bomb would have killed up to 1.5 million Japanese, the majority of which would have been women and children, especially children, who would have starved to death.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 2:53 PM
There is another aspect to the A-Bombs on Japan. An invasion of Japan proper would require transferring most of the American Army from Europe to the Pacific. The soldiers who had defeated Germany were rumbling that they had done their job, and were ready to go home. The top brass actually feared a mutiny if whole divisions were going to be transfered.
Because of the atomic bomb, my late father landed on a very peaceful and subdued Hokkaido.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 2:58 PM
The only real war crime is losing.
BTW, how is it that there can be a conversation about area bombing without having Bomber Harris mentioned even once? (Oops, William Amos got a reference in there)
After the war, Harris was treated as a pariah by the British, the same way that Churchill was unceromoniously tossed out. The West has been very good at not admitting to itself that war is hell and that those who in nations that start wars need to see that hell up close – which is why we are now at a point where nations and groups that we could annihilate with the push of a button are, nonetheless, attacking us. If anyone thinks that this total loss of deterrence is a good thing, I’d have them go get a PET scan, promptly, because their problem is clearly neurological.
I get really tired of these silly debates, as they go along without any mention of our strategic nuclear arsenal and the fact that is made to do one thing – incinerate huge waths of humanity, with a direct threat to kill every man, woman, child and pet of the enemy. That is the sort of threat that must be maintained (and the refusal to even contemplate threatening anyone with our arsenal is what leads to the loss of our deterrence and raises the likelihood of insane states wreaking chaos on the world, as Iran and many others are working towards as we speak).
By the modern “rules of war” – which are a total joke, and worse – nations don’t even risk any of their land by starting war and their populations never have to worry about their leaders starting wars, either. That is, of course, why the world is so unstable now and why we have a marxist sitting in the Oval Office. Yay!
Lastly, the great damage we wrought on the civilians in Germany and Japan did nothing to stop them from becoming some of our closest, most trustworthy, most productive allies afterwards – which puts to rest that idiotic post-WWII idea that we have to be nice to enemy populations to “win the hearts and minds”. Enemy populations need to know that we don’t f#ck around, so that if they ally with us they will be protected, strongly, instead of enemy civilians always being the first focus of “human rights”. The sort of attitude we take these days is that the rights of enemy civilians are primary and the rights of our own citizens are secondary. That is just insane.
But, we live in an era of intentional ignorance …
progressoverpeace on February 22, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Easly in the war the British did a accuracy study of their bombers and found tha 90-95 percent of their bombs hit more than 5 miles from their target. They used area bombing of cities because that was the only target big enough to be reasonably sure of hitting. And that was their best option for damaging the German war machine for most of the war. In fact, for most of the war, that was their only option.
Fred 2 on February 22, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Those people who say that do not know what they are talking about. We defeated the periphery of the Japanese Army; it was their Navy and air wings that were defeated. Japanese Army losses as compared to their total strenght was quite low. There were complete fresh and ready armies and divisions in China, Formosa (Tiawan) and in Japan.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 3:03 PM
Two problems with your theory that civilian areas of Dresden were legitimate targets. First, deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, regardless of whether your opponent did the same thing. You just admitted that it was a war crime by the acceptance of attacking the city center as a war target because is was a center of civilian and military transportation. While a road is a legitimate target, the civilian houses next to the road is not.
Your next arguement is that daylight bombing, which is more accurate, is too dangerous to the attacking aircraft. Well, Dresden had both daylight and night bombing raids. The fact that daylight bombing was used and was more discriminate shows that it can be done and that the indiscriminate use of incindiaries on civilian targets was obviously a war crime.
It is not accepted in international war laws at the time that a civilian involved in manufacturing of war marterial is a legitimate target.
Nothing in the above arguement provides any evidence that the deliberate attacks on civilians was anything but a war crime.
And the centerpiece of the arguement was that Dresden was close to the Soviet lines of advances is without merit, giving that the Soviet Union was enslaving the conquered countries, including allies of the U.S. such as Poland and the rest of the Eastern European countries. Support for Soviet actions is in and of itself a war crime.
federale86 on February 22, 2009 at 3:07 PM
After the war, Harris was treated as a pariah by the British, the same way that Churchill was unceromoniously tossed out.
And that bugs the hell out of me. They will also do the same to Bush. And real murderers, time and time again, get a pass by the leftards. I’m so sick of revisionist history.
This summer I read Comrades and Commissars, by Cecil Eby on the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War. All this crap about how brave and righteous they were was just that – crap. Americans murdering Americans because they were not following the Stalinist party line. Or who wanted to leave after their promised commitment was up or who had no training, no weapons, and were lead by fools, were tired of being slaughtered. Summary court martial, if that, and executed. They routinely shot POWs, too.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 3:11 PM
I need to add this: After Okinawa was secured, my father and his unit were sent to the Plilippines because the Japanese Army was not yet defeated and the US Army was still engaged. He actually went to Hokkaido from the Philippines.
How long could the Japanese Army have held out in the Phiipines, a year, two? Who knows.
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Why the discussion of war crimes at this juncture?
More horrific than Dresden was the B29 firebombings of Tokyo in which as many as 125,000 Japanese (mostly citizens) burned to death. One could certainly argue that the fire bombings were every bit as horrific as the atomic bombings. But why are we talking about this stuff right now?
I suspect it is a not so subtle attempt to undercut the morality of the Allies effort in WWII and use it as a stepping off point for attacking the morality of the current war effort.
While the west has gone to great lengths to prosecute a more surgical and more humane form of war, our enemies have fully embraced the tactics of terror. Given this context, how curious to find ourselves supine on the psychoanalytical couch of world opinion over weather we should stress terrorists or afford them constitutional protections. The world is upside down.
moxie_neanderthal on February 22, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Answer: yes. The principle of Double Effect applies here, and pretty clearly rules out carpet bombing, area bombing, the nuke attacks and fire bombings in Japan, and the Dresden bombing.
My country is nearly as guilty as yours in this.
War does not justify deliberate strikes on civilians.
Gaunilon on February 22, 2009 at 3:13 PM
The rules of war are of no value in the long run. War is hell and should be. It should be so bad that no one wants to ever fight another. That is not a call against defending oneself, but as a warning to any aggressors. We have learned that lesson in Vietnam and in Iraq (1991-we should have taken Saddam out then) when we fought one war and the enemy fought another.
genso on February 22, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Several months before the end of the war, General Patton had recognized the fearful danger to the West posed by the Soviet Union, and he had disagreed bitterly with the orders which he had been given to hold back his army and wait for the Red Army to occupy vast stretches of German, Czech, Rumanian, Hungarian, and Yugoslav territory, which the Americans could have easily taken instead.
Patton: “I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof — that’s their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you. They lived on the land coming down. There is insufficient left for them to maintain themselves going back. Let’s not give them time to build up their supplies. If we do, then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!”
Patton knew that the Americans could whip the Reds then — but perhaps not later. On May 18 he noted in his diary: “In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because, while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms, whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to right the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.”
- This article originally appeared in Issue Number 53 of National Vanguard Tabloid in 1977.
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Had the Emperor ordered it, they would have fought to the last man, woman, and child.
genso on February 22, 2009 at 3:16 PM
Exactly. And even worse, the revisionism puts us at serious risk.
And it’s not just that the leftards give passes to truly horrific murderers, but they celebrate them. It is only when we defend ourselves that the left gets their panties all in a bunch. Typical self-hate on display.
progressoverpeace on February 22, 2009 at 3:17 PM
It was a blatant war crime as we NOW structure these things. Because we NOW do not accept Total War as valid.
We firebombed civilians. End of story.
Now, whether that is ok or not depends on your view of the game. Back then, it was valid. Through the prism some of us now apply to it, it is a war crime.
End of.
Ares on February 22, 2009 at 3:17 PM
no.
rob verdi on February 22, 2009 at 3:17 PM
They invite murders to cocktail parties. That is true–not an exaggeration. The Left’s moral compass at first appears to spin in circles, then you realize that it points to the Lefties arsehole.
Montana on February 22, 2009 at 3:19 PM
And many writers have imagined for themselves republics and
principalities that have never been seen or known to exist in reality; for there is such a gap between how one lives and how one ought to live that anyone who abandons what is done for what ought to be done learns his ruin rather than his preservation: for a man who wishes to profess goodness
at all times will come to ruin among so many who are not good.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 3:20 PM
When you have to keep bombing factories because the workers keep rebuilding them . . it’s time to target the workers.
Workers are in fact part of the factory complex.
Even if it were a farm town I would have only a small amount of sympathy. Kill the farmer, kill the farm. No farm = no food. No food = a starving army.
The idea of ‘innocent civilians’ is ridiculous. Every person in a nation is part of the war machine; be it directly or indirectly.
- The Cat
P.S. This is why I also look at ‘isolated terrorist’ attacks as an act of war and deserve the full force of the military as a reaction and not a police matter.
MirCat on February 22, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Guam is only about 30×8 miles, relatively small place yet shoichi Yokoi hid out for nearly 30 years….
moxie_neanderthal on February 22, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Lets cut the bullshit……
They started it. We finished it.
PERIOD!
csdeven on February 22, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Fighting with one hand tied behind one’s back is OK?
Pelayo on February 22, 2009 at 3:23 PM
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
- Winston Churchill
MB4 on February 22, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Correction, we do not in both scope and application.
moxie_neanderthal on February 22, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Oh, listen to the American! I know you think you are being reasonable, but if something horrid happened to an American city you would want payback (like 9/11).
My mother endured years of daily and nightly bombing in London as a young girl. Thousands died, were burned, maimed, etc. The Germans started it and I don’t give a rat’s ass for dumb Nazi lovers. Look up Conventry and learn…
yubley on February 22, 2009 at 3:27 PM
The purpose of bombing Dresdon, Tokyo, and other cities was to shorten the war that those countries started. We didn’t have the technology at that time to direct bombing to a particular target. The claim that it was anything other than ending a war that was created by the fascists comes directly from Goebbels along with his fraudulently inflated causualty figures.
pedestrian on February 22, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Apologies, misread your statement. The fact that it was short and to the point apparently left me flumoxed. Caffeine deficiency syndrome disrupted my synapses.
moxie_neanderthal on February 22, 2009 at 3:29 PM
He was Italian.
Blake on February 22, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Speaking of murderers, how about the 50 million + people that were executed by Stalin, Mao, Giap, Castro and PolPot when they came to power? It makes the bombings, as terrible as they were, pale in comparison.
DL13 on February 22, 2009 at 3:31 PM
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