North Dakota’s Roe challenge
posted at 3:30 pm on February 18, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
North Dakota’s House has fired a shot across Roe‘s bow, and may set up the next legal challenge to the 1973 court ruling — if the Senate plays along. Yesterday, they passed legislation explicitly determining the start of human life at conception. If passed into law, it would make abortion an act of murder:
North Dakota’s House of Representatives has passed a bill effectively outlawing abortion.
The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.
That means a fetus could not be legally aborted without the procedure being considered murder.
Dan Ruby (R) says that the language of this bill exactly comports with Roe, in that it makes an explicit determination of the start of human life. The testimony on this point will prove interesting, assuming it passes into law. Scientists will likely get called to define life in general and the unique composition of a human embryo, eliminating any doubt about the status of the zygote, especially as it begins multiplying. On a scientific basis, life at the zygote stage is indisputable and separate (though dependent) on the mother.
However, don’t count your chickens until the eggs hatch, pun intended. Ruby managed to get this through the House for the first time after several previous attempts. The Senate may sit on this bill rather than put North Dakota into a national firestorm over abortion rights. Such a fight would certainly be costly, and likely futile. The current court has shown no great willingness to revisit Roe, even as some of them have acknowledged the poor construction of the decision, including Ruth Ginsburg.
Let’s hope that North Dakota decides to fight. Roe deserves to be overturned just on the overreach alone of justices finding “emanations” from “penumbras” to instill their own view of public policy. This debate should have remained with the states, and it’s about time that the states demanded their voice in it.
Update: My friend Jazz Shaw disagrees:
They will probably face a few challenges which didn’t get addressed in Roe, at least one on a technicality, and North Dakota may find itself dealing with the law of unintended consequences. On the first issue there is a question which has been brought up before leading to anti-abortion enthusiasts trying to bat it away as a technicality. Many people assume that the Constitution is silent on this subject, and they’re almost right. But the argument has been made that we already have a definition of when the rights of citizens begin, if not the moment when life itself takes root. For this, we point readers to the 14th amendment.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Did you catch the key phrase there? Born or naturalized. So while you may be “alive” or “a person” at the moment of conception, your rights and protections don’t kick in until you somehow manage to exit the mother’s body alive. A technicality, you say? Definitely. But bigger cases have hinged on less in the past.
Well, I think that’s mighty thin gruel myself. Not even Roe tried using that as an origin of an emanation, or a penumbra, or vision from Gaia. The amendment had specifically to do with citizenship, not the start of life, and place of birth is a lot easier to prove than the place one was conceived — and probably a lot less embarrassing, in some instances.
Jazz is right, though, that the language in the North Dakota law would greatly complicate in-vitro fertilization that uses multiple fertilizations and fails to implant all of the resultant embryos. Some will see that complication as a feature rather than a bug, though, and for the same reasons they support this bill — because human life is not a commodity but sacred.










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I can hear the roll-call in the North Dakota Legislature now:
All who favor the extermination of a baby in the womb, say “aye.”
There will be a lot of “ayes.”
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Bingo!
canditaylor68 on February 18, 2009 at 3:34 PM
I hope they pick the fight. It would be great for obvious reasons, but also might spark dialogue about our constitution. Furthermore, create dialogue between the libritarian and social wings of the Republican party. I would love to see these two sides come together strongly to fight to overturn Roe in spirit of states rights (moral legislation at the federal level is not in the constitution). Then, if need be, fight this out at the state level 50 times over.
WashJeff on February 18, 2009 at 3:36 PM
Good for them.
Set the standard, then after set, you can address the exceptions.
Liberals govern by exceptions first, and never set a standard. Example: Because some 13 yr old girls in VT are from broken families, then all 13 yr old girls can have an abortion without parental consent.
Establish what is life. Respect life. Incest, rape…those are exceptions which can be open for discussion. But 1.3 million abortions a year in America alone? It’s unimaginable.
Montana on February 18, 2009 at 3:36 PM
All in favor of equating moral rights of a paralyzed girl with that of a lump of cells more primitive than a brain of a fly, say aye.
radiofreevillage on February 18, 2009 at 3:37 PM
State’s rights.
Hopefully this thing will survive the state senate, and ignite a nationwide “discussion” on state’s rights, in relation to the faux issue of “privacy” when it comes to willful destruction of human life.
I don’t know how many times this needs to be said but….In most cases, murder of an adult is unjustified, and it doesn’t have one damn thing to do with the issue of “privacy”. Same thing goes for abortion.
Just my .02 cents….
Talismen on February 18, 2009 at 3:39 PM
Um, okay, but what about the two-thirds of those “person”s that never implant, and die? Are they now obligated to find a way to save them?
Count to 10 on February 18, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Soooo many opportunities for a REAL LEADER to emerge and take the party back!!
We all know that the MAJORITY of this country believes in conservative values.
We need leaders to articulate these values…
DamnYankee on February 18, 2009 at 3:40 PM
If this passes, and sticks…imagine the spin, the big liberal vote, and the most conservative issue becomes law…interesting times.
right2bright on February 18, 2009 at 3:40 PM
All who understand that a “lump of cells” is a necessary component in the creation of a baby in the womb, say “aye.”
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 3:41 PM
I really want this to pass, not on the abortion issue per say, but strictly on a State’s rights.
Twolf on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
AYE.
Beo on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Under socialized health care, they probably will equate them, but not in the way you think.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Way to go North Dakota! It’s about time the States told the Feds where to shove it!
sabbott on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
We are living in interesting times. B Hussein O is not going to like this turn of events so soon into his reign.
OmahaConservative on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
All that is needed now is about 5 or 10 more states to do it before it reaches the Supreme Court and the lib justices will have to say the trend in the states makes this the law of the land, right?
Dusty on February 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Absolutely…so many examples, “zero tolerance” in schools is another one.
Govern for the 95%, then let the courts determine the other 5%, not the other way around.
right2bright on February 18, 2009 at 3:43 PM
This decision will be left to the FCCCCRs in Obamaland.
WashJeff on February 18, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Granted, I think the state has every right to do this, but the wording might have some weird consequences, if carried to the logical conclution.
Count to 10 on February 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM
AYE
sabbott on February 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Like I said before, I want the pro-abortion crowd to compromise, and say that a baby in the womb is 3/5 of a human being. It worked so well with the last human rights issue democrats felt this strongly about.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM
And all of those who exactly know when that “lump of cells” is a baby, say “aye”.
right2bright on February 18, 2009 at 3:45 PM
I feel sorry for the ignorant, but evil is not ignorant.
DamnYankee on February 18, 2009 at 3:45 PM
As a side note, it appears that, even though the national election was a disaster, the States are beginning to act as they should in a Federal Republic – as independent entities that have the power to act, separate from the Federal government.
In this regard, for the first time in its history, the Republicans hold both houses of the Oklahoma Legislature. Maybe some good things will start to happen, at the State level.
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Stand up! Let your penumbras emanate!
whitetop on February 18, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Isn’t the murder of a pregnant woman a double-homicide in some states? Here’s an outrageous question: What if the murderer found out the mother didn’t want the baby? Can he get his charge knocked down to one murder (I would certainly hope not!)? Hmmmm. Smacks of double-standards before you even visit the moral issues.
This belongs in the states.
jusgottabeme on February 18, 2009 at 3:47 PM
A fertilized egg is a valuable form of human life. It IS human life, and can become nothing else BUT human.
As to being dependent upon the mother for survival, that’s a red herring. In the great scheme of things, we are ALL dependent upon someone else for our own survival. Whether it’s the farmer that grows our food, the worker who makes our aplliances, the prospector who develops the oil we use to generate our energy, whatever the overwhelming majority of humans would die if left alone.
From the family to the tribe to the community to the nation. We are all dependent upon someone else for our survival and prosperity.
Life begins at conception, although, it could be argued that it has no beginning. The zygote develops from other living tissue, thus there is no “beginning” of life, per se, only the beginning of a new human.
I wish this well. It’s time to stop the mass slaughter of the innocents.
AW1 Tim on February 18, 2009 at 3:49 PM
I agree with you on Roe — Bad law. But is it super precedent that cannot be over turned? Maybe.
I sill disagree with you on the “life equals person” equation. I agree an embryo has all the genetic markings of a human and multiplies as if it were alive, but that does not necessarily mean the human-like life form is a “person” entitled to protection from termination.
Personhood (like ensoulment) is a determination wholly separate from the determination of whether the embryo is alive and human. Personhood is a cultural and moral determination of the point at which we as a society grant a human life protection from termination. When a person develops or when a soul comes into being is an unknowable. This is an argument that cannot be won.
tommylotto on February 18, 2009 at 3:49 PM
All of those who understand that, at conception, everything is now in place, for the creation of a baby in the womb, and that the passage of time is the only other necessary element, say “aye.”
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Would that this could pass-the Democrats completely in control of the government,socialism creeps in from all directions and yet the states rise up to the challenge to fight off the Federal governments encroachment on their right to make/not make laws for their populations. Logical dialog is opened on that level and unities are formed from separate groups to provide a coalition large enough to finally be heard. E Pluribus Unum!
canditaylor68 on February 18, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Problem is, when Obambi signs FOCA as promised, it will be all for naught. Won’t he in collusion with the geniuses in Congress obliterate any and all state gains in this arena?
Also, my daugher is expecting an infant in March. Her name is already chosen. We’ve been hoping all along for a tiny, helpless human being.
Am I wrong on both counts?
marybel on February 18, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Yes, but natural death has never been against the law. As is the case in this example. If a person dies because they’re just too old and the body gives up, that’s ok. If a fertilized embryo cannot find its way to the uterine wall and is expelled naturally, it’s just as well. Either way, a human being is not determining the fate of another as is the case with abortion.
Kelligan on February 18, 2009 at 3:52 PM
What he said and what you said are not contradictory, but what he said had a relevant point and what you said didn’t.
DaveS on February 18, 2009 at 3:52 PM
This debate should have remained with the states, and it’s about time that the states demanded their voice in it
–So when do the states get to choose how much of the tax money provided by their citizens is spent on national defense?
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Nope. We are waiting for a baby’s birth as well. Only 37 weeks to go.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 3:53 PM
radiofreevillage on February 18, 2009 at 3:37 PM
At that primitive stage, though, there is no way it could be considered murder, because you couldn’t know that an egg had been fertilized.
DaveS on February 18, 2009 at 3:53 PM
If it is a “lump of cells” it has been fertilized. Otherwise it would be a single egg cell floating about minding its own business.
What you said about what they said makes no sense. You just want it too because you’re pro-abortion.
Kelligan on February 18, 2009 at 3:57 PM
What are you afraid of DaveS………..
……….. let the States decide, or at least have the discussion.
Seven Percent Solution on February 18, 2009 at 4:00 PM
So, fetuses would then have the right to vote, to pay taxes, to be considered a dependent for tax purposes, have the right to “free” medical care, etc.?
It sounds like a lot of details need to be worked out.
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 4:00 PM
It is so very telling that abortion advocates always refer to the unborn as a “lump of cells”. Is it because they do realize the horror of abortion and can only allow themselves to think of it in these terms, because they are ignorant, or because they are intellectually dishonest?
neuquenguy on February 18, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Maybe this will clear the way for more states to stand up for what is right and wrong, screw washington and the libs, lets pass our OWN laws, state by state, and tell nancy and barney and all the other libtards where to go!!
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on February 18, 2009 at 4:01 PM
Congrats to both of you and your families. Marybel-I believe Obortion has already signed FOCA. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I think that was the day that I wished the mole on his face turned into cancer of his loins and spread. Im pro-life not anti pain…Forgive me.
canditaylor68 on February 18, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Kelligan—If a fertilized embryo cannot find its way to the uterine wall and is expelled naturally, it’s just as well.
—————————-
–Actually, no. Wouldn’t the use of a birth control pill, morning after pill or an IUD be considered manslaughter or murder if use of that caused the egg not to implant?
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 4:03 PM
Wow, I learned something from DaveS. The fact that the pro-abortionists use the term “lump of cells” as their semantic of choice, so as not to have to refer to a necessary element in the creation of a baby in the womb, post conception, has “no relevance” to a thread about a State attempting to outlaw abortion.
Thanks DaveS.
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 4:03 PM
AYE!
I’m for EVERYBODY!
Sapwolf on February 18, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Right on FOCA. O the second one, the lump of cells will magically transform into a human being the second the air touches her/his skin, actually, I think it works with water as well.
neuquenguy on February 18, 2009 at 4:06 PM
But of course that is NOT the issue.
The baby who has a face and limbs and kicks in the womb. Those are the ones aborted, not these quiet, recently fertilized eggs.
Remember what Obama had shelved.
Sapwolf on February 18, 2009 at 4:09 PM
I didn’t know it was Neanderthal day at HA.
My tapeworm sez:
wccawa on February 18, 2009 at 4:10 PM
And that right there is the only logically consistent point in the abortion debate: that we do not know when life – whatever life is exactly – actually begins.
It is fact. We do not know. Science does not know. Perhaps we cannot know.
Yet somehow we’ve developed a system where a prom queen who tosses out her 10-minute-old newborn gets 10 years in prison … when if she’d done it the day before, or a week before, or two months before, her act would not only have been condoned, it would have been constitutionally protected.
That makes no sense. And the reason it makes no sense is because we avoid that one simple fact, the only relevant issue:
Nobody knows when life begins.
Thus, those of us who oppose abortion on logical rather than moral grounds, do so for the simple reason that we believe in erring on the side of caution.
I can’t support killing a fetus just because it *might* not be human. I don’t know. I don’t know when life starts. Neither do you. So a little caution is the only logical position.
Professor Blather on February 18, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Right. Because we give children the right to vote and make them pay taxes. That makes sense.
Professor Blather on February 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM
Glad to see states still have autonomy…kind of.
ballz2wallz on February 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM
Why do scientists get to decide when life begins? What makes them better than Theologians to determine when life begins and the ethics of murder?
Tim Burton on February 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM
But then, that would not be natural, would it?
And you aren’t tricking me into arguing against birth control =p, but my wife does not use the pill anyway.
But isn’t the function of all 3 items you listed to prevent fertilization in the first place?
Kelligan on February 18, 2009 at 4:16 PM
I’d much rather see Wickard v. Filburn overturned than Roe v. Wade.
Some people procreate, some people abort, but everybody eats.
cthulhu on February 18, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Some of those are not rights. They’re obligations. And we already say in this country that children don’t vote and most don’t pay taxes. Pregnant women do have access to free medical care so these ‘lump of cells’ are already receiving care along with their mothers. Example: WIC provides nourishment to promote healthy babies – not just healthy women.
I don’t get what you meant.
jusgottabeme on February 18, 2009 at 4:20 PM
God Bless the good people of North Dakota in all of the efforts to protect the most vulnerable of our society, the unborn.
Tobias2012 on February 18, 2009 at 4:20 PM
What is interesting about a law like this is that it is not exactly clear how the reasoning of the Supreme Court’s abortion jurisprudence could possibly justify holding this law unconstitutional in its entirety.
The reason is that this law would affect more than pregnancy; it would also affect embryonic stem cell research, for example. And it is just not clear to me why the state, even under the current precedents of the Supreme Court, cannot grant legal rights to embryos that that are “left over” from IVF procedures.
Mr. MacIan on February 18, 2009 at 4:20 PM
I wonder about the practice of implanting two or three in vitro fertilized ova. Isn’t it done knowing some may not survive? The act of implantation creates a live or die scenario, doesn’t it? The frozen embryos were safe. Are we talking about murder based on statistical probability?
a capella on February 18, 2009 at 4:21 PM
Because life is a scientific term. But murder is the unlawful killing of a person with intent. Scientists do not get to determine personhood. That determination is made by
politicianser, 9 guys in black robes as influenced by lawyers, doctors, scientists, theologians and philosophers.tommylotto on February 18, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Not unless they are actively trying to kill them.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Having now had the somewhat dubious distinction of having a “lump of cells” and a fetus (or four) in my body (fortunately not at the same time), I can tell you there is a BIG difference, not the least of which is the fetus is genetically distinct from me.
And I didn’t need a course of surgery, poisonous chemicals, and radiation to get the fetus out of my body.
March Hare on February 18, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Double Ditto.
Harpoon on February 18, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Ok, you’re generally right on the voting and taxes, but wouldn’t a fetus be able to own property and be required to have a social security number?
This is apparently what the ND bill says: “any organism with the genome of homo sapiens” is a person protected by rights granted by the North Dakota Constitution and state laws.” The sponsor said “This is very simply defining when life begins, and giving that life some protections under our Constitution — the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
Here’s a provision from the ND Constitution: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, unless for the punishment of crime, shall ever be tolerated in this state.” Would a fetus be able to sue its mother for involuntary servitude or slavery while in the womb?
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 4:37 PM
Aren’t the responsible parties creating the likelihood some will die, as opposed to remaining safely frozen? That’s a voluntary act. Seems to me it is quite different than natural conception and implantation, because multiples would occur by chance. For that matter, what about the use of hormones which increases the chances of multiples, even by natural process? If murder is the name of the game, we should probably know who is establishing conditions where it will likely occur, shouldn’t we?
a capella on February 18, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Abortion is not a huge issue for me personally, but if it can serve to rally a pissed-off conservative base to defeat the liberal Dems before they can totally wreck this country, then rock on.
J.J. Sefton on February 18, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Yes. Good luck getting a lawyer, kid.
Matticus Finch on February 18, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Hmmm. I thought there were laws requiring assistance to those who’s life is in danger. Perhaps they are safely not broad enough.
Count to 10 on February 18, 2009 at 4:42 PM
Ug. Isn’t there some effort somewhere to empower layers to file suit in cases where the potential plaintiff can’t?
Count to 10 on February 18, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Don’t worry about lawyers, there will never be a want for them.
neuquenguy on February 18, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Wasn’t there a case where a lawyer war representing some animal recently?
neuquenguy on February 18, 2009 at 4:45 PM
Here’s a description of how birth control pills work:
“HC (the pill, the patch, and the vaginal ring) all contain a small amount of synthetic estrogen and progestin hormones. These hormones work to inhibit the body’s natural cyclical hormones to prevent pregnancy. Pregnancy is prevented by a combination of factors. The HC usually stops the body from releasing an egg from the ovary. HC also changes the cervical mucus to make it difficult for the sperm to find an egg. HC can also prevent pregnancy by making the lining of the womb inhospitable for implantation.”
To the extent that a birth control pill stops implantation, its use would probably be considered murder. (And it may even be that sperm would be caught by the ND definition, but I’m not a scientist).
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 4:48 PM
I think they’d have to demonstrate that the fetus was not there willingly.
Again, good luck. It amazes me the lengths by which some will go to ensure abortions continue unabated.
Matticus Finch on February 18, 2009 at 4:48 PM
When I get bummed by Obama’s economic policy, I do have the consolation of thinking that he’ll appoint Supreme Court justices who are reasonable on this issue.
thuja on February 18, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Courts can appoint guardians and often do in similar situations to represent people who can’t represent themselves:
A guardian is someone appointed by the Court to assume legal responsibility for another person or another person’s property or both. Guardianship is appropriate when a disabled person, known as the ward, is unable to make responsible decisions concerning his or her medical care or financial situation, usually because of a physical or mental illness. Sometimes guardianship may be necessary to obtain consent for a specific medical procedure, for continuing ongoing medical care or for placing the ward in a safe living environment. Guardianship may also be appropriate for a minor.
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 4:50 PM
I tried and tried but didn’t read where a guardian may kill a human being. Good luck convincing a judge that an innocent human being would be better off dead.
Matticus Finch on February 18, 2009 at 4:53 PM
The argument is that they are giving the embryo a chance to grow, and if it doesn’t, they haven’t actively sought the baby’s death. In simplistic terms, if you have a goldfish in a bowl, it is restricted in size and ‘life’. If you release the goldfish into a lake, it can grow larger and be more active, but it might also die. You haven’t killed it if it dies.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 4:55 PM
The “Zero Person” position on slaves was the position of the abolitionists. The slave-owners wanted slaves to count as “one person” in the census for representative reasons. If the slave-owners had had their way, the slave states would have been given more representation in the HofR (would they then be hailed as heroes today?… I don’t think so).
I have to go over this again and again on local blogs with lefties screeching about the “3/5 of a person” compromise. The abolitionists weren’t trying to argue that blacks are less human and the slave-owners weren’t arguing that slaves were equal with whites (that would be stupid on both counts)… it was simply a matter of representation.
mankai on February 18, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Jim M would certainly feel at home debating about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.
Other than that, he’s probably going to be in trouble when his mother gets home and finds he’s been posting online instead of doing his homework.
AW1 Tim on February 18, 2009 at 4:56 PM
Fetus: It’s not a choice it’s a Child! Abortion = Murder; always has, always will.
bmac727 on February 18, 2009 at 4:58 PM
Meaning “judges who agree with me,” right?
cs89 on February 18, 2009 at 5:00 PM
We won the argument in the 1860s. Same argument here, just a different context. Society has the power to determine when life or liberty should or should not be protected. But the right is pre-existing and is not granted by any state or culture.
Interestingly, though, that “argument” in the 1860s was precisely not about letting the states decide.
I am kind of torn on whether it is a good idea to say that the right to life should be left to the states to decide. On the one hand, that seems to be conceding the univeral right that I assert above. On the other hand,it would probably save a lot of lives that would otherwise be lost under the current system. And technically there is no current federal law against murder, so I guess we do treat the protection of life as a states rights issue.
JackOfClubs on February 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM
This is from the American Academy of Medical Ethics.
This is from a paper they did regarding ESC research, but the biological background is certainly applicable here.
Science on the beginning of life.
Cell biology:
INC on February 18, 2009 at 5:11 PM
AW1 Tim –Jim M would certainly feel at home debating about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.
Other than that, he’s probably going to be in trouble when his mother gets home and finds he’s been posting online instead of doing his homework.
——————————
It’s the “law of unintended consequences”. When the legislatures write laws that haven’t been thought through, then weird results happen. Just like the recent federal Consumer Protection law that could cause thrift shops to close down because of lead content in some of the resale items they sell.
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 5:15 PM
Yes, I know the history, but this illustrates that the issue is one of human rights, not of ‘privacy’. It also recalls that we fought a civil war the last time some people were not regarded as more than property.
Vashta.Nerada on February 18, 2009 at 5:16 PM
Now, I guess all embryos that were not used for invitro-fertilization will have to be kept frozen for at least 76 years. And, if after ten years an embryo is proven to be “dead” someone will be charged with manslaughter?
I would hope that the proposed ND law has an exception for unimplanted embryos.
Pelayo on February 18, 2009 at 5:18 PM
I thank God for small favors everyday, today it is you.
Califemme on February 18, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Kelligan on February 18, 2009 at 3:57 PM
What are you afraid of DaveS………..
Seven Percent Solution on February 18, 2009 at 4:00 PM
OhEssYouCowboys on February 18, 2009 at 4:03 PM
Arguing with strawmen does nothing to make you guys look reasonable, rational, intelligent, or, generally, worth talking to. Every last one of you reflexively started arguing with a wall at the mention of what are apparently buzzwords in your heads, buzzwords (“lump of cells”) that you inexplicably attributed to me in your blind, thoughtless diatribes.
Try to be thoughtful, people. You embarrass yourselves.
DaveS on February 18, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Sapwolf on February 18, 2009 at 4:09PM
Not if the bill uses “conception” as the criteria. You’ve just made murderers of people who use a morning-after pill, which involves no knowledge of the state of the egg.
There is no reasonable justification–none whatsoever–with making it “murder” to destroy even a fertilized egg with 2 or 4 or 8 or 2048 cells. Any attempt to do so is necessarily religiously motivated.
DaveS on February 18, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Multiple implantation is done due to a few factors- among those are: Statistical probability of non-viable embryos, Maternal age, and expense in IVF. Responsible IVF is usually 2-3 embryos. At a cost to the family of over 20k per IVF round, most families opt for a twin/triplet possibility in the hopes of having at least one child.
All pregnancies have risks, but because these women are already high risk pregnancy, their gestation is not comparable to a naturally occurring pregnancy. Miscarriage in an IVF patient, when there is no embryo reduction (triplets to twins) is around 8-9%, and when ER is employed it is around 5%. But reduction carries the risk of total miscarriage, up to 8% miscarry after ER. Families have to make a choice what risk they can handle.
Clomid, and other hormone therapy to induce ovulation is not one egg specific. Some women produce one egg some produce multiple. Again families take the chance that there will be multiple eggs in the hope that there is at least one that will fertilize, implant & grow to be a viable infant.
No matter which side you are on the abortion issue, Roe was decided in part on antiquated medicine. In the early 70′s few infants 28 weeks and under,and virtually none under 24 weeks were viable. With the advancements in neonatology and the unchanged court opinion it is entirely possible that in the same facility one team is saving a pre-term infant while another is aborting the same gestational age infant. Surely we can all agree, at least, that it needs to be revisited on the federal level.
batterup on February 18, 2009 at 5:28 PM
hhhmm….this is very interesting, and so very at odds with the 3 individuals that represent North Dakota in Washington DC:
Byron Dorgan (D) – liberal democrat
Kent Conrad (D) – self proclaimed deficit hawk that voted in favor of the largest spending bill ever (porkulus); i.e. says one thing, votes the opposite, no interest in his constituents
Earl Pomeroy (D) – incompetent doofus
All pro-choice politicians, subservient to Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. It would be very interesting for some newspaper (or blogger) to call their offices for their opinion of the passage of this bill in the ND House.
mngirl on February 18, 2009 at 5:30 PM
So because we’d consider a fetus alive, you’re automatically assuming they’d get more rights than a 17-year-old? Does that actually make sense to you?
Certainly. Isn’t that how we treat Death Row? We’d rather several innocent people go free than to kill one innocent person by execution. Why should we treat the unborn worse than a convicted murderer?
Esthier on February 18, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Thinking through the consequences of the legislation is helpful in anticipating issues. Fertility practices would likely be affected by the way the legislation is written.
Could a frozen embryo be represented in court and emancipated?
dedalus on February 18, 2009 at 5:33 PM
All of the above.
Jarhead68 on February 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM
Can you name any infants who own property and have social security numbers? I was at least ten before I got my SS#. It wasn’t necessary for me to have one before then. If I remember correctly, I only got it because my family and I were traveling out of the country, and I needed a passport.
Imprisonment would be the only logical choice, seeing as a fetus does nothing to aid the mother while inside her womb. But even imprisonment is stupid, otherwise infants would have that same legal argument as well.
You keep trying to pretend that by allowing that a fetus is a person you also are allowing that it’s over 18. Instead, think of an infant and the rights given to an infant and then try to make your case.
Esthier on February 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM
Esthier, I think it’s pretty clear that the parents of fetuses would be entitled to claim them as dependents for tax purposes, give gifts to them, go to hospitals and claim free health care for them because they are indigent and probably many other things. They might be able to drive and drink nine months earlier because their age would be counted from the time of conception, not birth. Use of birth control pills, IUDs and some other contraceptives would very likely be considered murder, as would the disposal of embroyos from in vitro fertilization. And I think it’s quite possible that courts would appoint guardians for fetuses in difficult medical situations.
But I think that they would not be allowed to vote until 17 years, 3 months.
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM
The North Dakota Fighting Sioux. I can dream.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G-FTg419NM&feature=related
diogenes on February 18, 2009 at 5:39 PM
Emancipated to where? Keeping a woman from terminating a pregnancy is one thing, but forcing her to carry a frozen embryo rather than allowing it to remain where it is, is something else altogether.
Esthier on February 18, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Infants and children regularly own property (bank accounts, stocks, etc.). That’s why there’s the Uniform Gift to Minors Act, so parents and others can give people gifts without paying gift taxes (so long as the gifts are under $12000 [I think] annually) and so the income and appreciation are the child’s, not the parents.
jim m on February 18, 2009 at 5:45 PM
1. As far as dependents go, there is no case, as the fetus requires nothing extra from the parents, aside from health care, which Obama’s going to give us all for free anyway.
2. The rules as far as taxes go for gifts would be no different than they are for infants.
That’s completely illogical. Your birth date is just that, the day you were born. It doesn’t state how long you’ve been alive but just how long you’ve been on the Earth. That’s what you celebrate each year, and it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
Maybe, maybe not, but this is actually a legitimate issue, unlike everything else you’ve brought up.
Illogical as well. The rights of the fetus wouldn’t trump the rights of the mother, concerning her right to live.
Again, completely illogical. Stick with birth control arguments.
Esthier on February 18, 2009 at 5:46 PM
So? What’s the problem here?
Esthier on February 18, 2009 at 5:47 PM
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