Should the Pope deny communion to Pelosi for being pro-choice?
posted at 3:08 pm on February 17, 2009 by Allahpundit
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Some Catholics say yes, most — I assume — would say no. It’s a pointless debate since it’ll never happen, but intriguing insofar as the weight of authority does seem to be on the side of denial.
As LifeNews.com reported, Pelosi, one of the top pro-abortion Catholics in elected office in the United States, will meet with Pope on Wednesday…
Jeff Jones, of the Catholic web site Pewsitter, is organizing the petition “requesting the Catholic Bishops of the United States to withhold Communion from her and other prominent Catholics in public life that obstinately persist in their dissent from Catholic teaching on serious moral issues.”…
Jones says Church teachings call Catholics like him to action.
“Most Catholics don’t know that in addition to Canon 915, Canon law also compels Catholics to take action,” Jones says. He says Canon 212 S3 requires lay Catholics to urge Church leaders to action.
Here’s Canon 915, withholding communion from those “obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin.” The defense, presumably, is that participating in abortion might be a sin but merely supporting laws that legalize the practice doesn’t quite rise to that level. The Pope’s been cool to that argument in the past, declaring in 2007 that Catholic legislators should take care to base their laws on “values grounded in human nature,” which includes respect for life, and then upping the ante a few months later by endorsing the excommunication of leftist Mexican parliamentarians for passing an abortion law. The Vatican quickly and quietly cleaned up the latter remarks to make his approval more ambiguous, though, which demonstrates how reluctant Benedict is to push his rhetoric beyond the mere hortatory. If he makes an example of Pelosi, he’ll alienate Catholic Democrats (and their donations) and touch off a global panic about Catholic politicians having to take their marching orders from Rome. Which is why, I suspect, the worst she’ll have to suffer during their tete a tete is a vague lecture on the importance of informing law with morality.
Look at it this way: If he had some huge problem with her, he wouldn’t be giving her an audience. Exit question: Doesn’t the Gospel according to St. Nancy explicitly endorse abortion?
Update (Ed): I’d say that the Pope should deny her communion, for reasons I’ve outlined in several posts over the last few months. It’s pretty difficult to reconcile paragraphs 2271-4 and 2322 of the catechism with Pelosi’s support of abortion rights, especially 2272:
Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
Excommunication means, quite literally, “no communion”. The question will be whether the Pope considers Pelosi’s push for abortion rights “formal cooperation”, an interpretation increasingly popular with American bishops tired of Catholics supporting abortions. If he doesn’t, the Pope will send a signal that participating in the legalization of abortion carries no consequences, an odd signal for this Pope in particular to send.
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EXCOMMUNICATE
marklmail on February 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM
I would deny communion for ANYONE that looks like that. But I’m Jewish so I really don’t care.
Andy in Agoura Hills on February 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM
Yes
joey24007 on February 17, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Why should catholics take their religion seriously, if the Pope doesn’t?
lorien1973 on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
If the Pope is to stay true to Catholic Doctrine she should be denied communion, especially since she has been so outspoken about the issue. It would send the wrong message to the rest of the Catholic world if he gave it to her.
DL13 on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Communion?
Ha! I recommend this
BobMbx on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
That kind of says it all. But, it is another religion thread, so have at it.
genso on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Yes.
Skywise on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
She has explicitly denied that the Church condemns abortion. It’s bad to support abortion but to deny that the Church condemns it? Sounds kinda heretical to me.
darii on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
Like you said, it’ll never happen. Soooo…
No comment.
Abby Adams on February 17, 2009 at 3:12 PM
giggles…
Yep, I think that she should be excommunicated IMHO. But I am not the Pope…. and it is his decision.
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:13 PM
I am not Catholic, but i would say that he should not deny her because he is not suppose to judge her, God will judge her in due time.
Be_Aware on February 17, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Better question: Would Pelosi actually care if he did?
TheUnrepentantGeek on February 17, 2009 at 3:13 PM
yes
the line in the sand is now at the edge of the cliff. time to push back
eaglesdontflock on February 17, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Yes.
SouthernRoots on February 17, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Yup
artist on February 17, 2009 at 3:14 PM
YES
Dr Evil on February 17, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Uh, yeah. Supposed to be a big deal for the Catholics. Still trying to figure out how so many “Good” Catholics voted for the infanticide, “one”.
anniekc on February 17, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Didn’t you mean exorcism?
MDWNJ on February 17, 2009 at 3:16 PM
No.
(Full Disclosure: I’m not Catholic….)
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:16 PM
Absolutely he should excommunicate her. I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran and if I were promoting abortion publicly as she does, I would expect to be excommunicated. Public sin is grounds for it.
OmahaConservative on February 17, 2009 at 3:16 PM
I can think of at least 10 things to give Pelosi,..communion isen’t one of them!
christene on February 17, 2009 at 3:16 PM
A Catholic who simply votes for her is risking eternal fiery torment (according to the RCC) and may have defacto ex-communcated himself by his vote.. How stupid it is, then, that they just don’t ex-communicate the source of the offense.
Has she even been to mass lately?
This is no skin off my nose (I don’t give a flip about the RCC until they start trying to control US elections), but it is rather silly to threaten the voters while leaving those who CLEARLY “cooperate with evil” in full communion.
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM
I doubt the Pope will be giving her communion. The Vatican press release made clear this is a State visit with a politician, not a religious audience and certainly not a Mass. The Pope is meeting her as Head of of the Vatican State, not as Holy Father.
Rocks on February 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM
That would actually be a greater reason, in my mind, to deny her communion, far more than her legal support of it.
Esthier on February 17, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Well, that’s exactly right. As long as Pelosi doesn’t have an abortion herself, she’s allowed to receive the Eucharist.
As a Catholic myself, I have to say that denying the Eucharist to someone isn’t taken lightly. It’s not about “judgment”, your soul simply needs to be in a certain state in order to receive what we believe to be the Body of Christ.
JetBoy on February 17, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Abso-freakin’-lutely. He should give her a hair shirt and tell her to go change her evil ways.
califcon on February 17, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Deny communion and excommunicate.
PimFortuynsGhost on February 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Ding! We have a winner.
garry on February 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Well, Catholicism is a false religion which borrows heavily from religions like with the Egyptian deity Isis(queen of heaven, etc), so it doesn’t really matter anyway.
I’d encourage anyone who’s interested in the subject to read Foxe’s book of martyrs to see what the catholic church has done to authentic christians throughout the centuries.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Innocent III, Urban VIII and Pius IX would be shocked to realize the two are somehow that independent.
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Excommunicated!? hell she should be deported!!!!
grapeknutz on February 17, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Talk about things that don’t matter. Hello? Hello? Border Guards released….H.A. post in 3….2…
OwlorNothing on February 17, 2009 at 3:20 PM
This thread isn’t here for Catholic-bashing. And you really have amazing nerve throwing stones at another religion for being false.
Allahpundit on February 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Ye who knows as he was there in the BC era. As all men who write about God need not know what they speak as they are not God!
**rolls eyes**
I don’t care who the heck you are, where you come from. Just go away!
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Yes
Y-not on February 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Be_Aware on February 17, 2009 at 3:13 PM
That isn’t how Catholicism works. Pelosi goes to confession she confesses her sins, and ask for forgiveness, she is given penance and prayer to ask God for forgiveness. If she doesn’t mean it, when she is in confession (pro choice), then she can’t take communion. Because basically she is lying to God she has no intention of changing or atoning. The Holy Roman Catholic Church, has made the Church’s position clear on Abortion. It is wrong they are against abortion. I don’t really get how she calls herself a Catholic? What part of the Catholic Doctrine does she follow?
Dr Evil on February 17, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Yes, he should deny her. The Catholic church has pussy-footed around in recent years saying that John Kerry and others should be denied. Well, DENY her! Are they going to stand by their beliefs or what?
Oink on February 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM
SNORTS!
Allah 1 TTheo 0
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM
Yes. And the pope should also strangle her with her own intestines.
wccawa on February 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM
Since she is assembled from parts like Frankenstein, wouldn’t it be a sacrilege to offer her the sacrament?
Valiant on February 17, 2009 at 3:22 PM
Wrong. She is (according to the RCC) guilty of “cooperating with evil” and just last October Catholics in one diocese (backed by Rome) were told that simply voting for a pro-abortion candidate may be akin to “cooperaing with evil” and therefore such a voter would be risking his eternal fate.
Oh, and don’t masturbate… that’s a “grave sin” too.
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:23 PM
YES. And a good b.. slap would be good.
calgrammy on February 17, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Yes, only Obama should be giving Nancy bread to eat anyway
jp on February 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM
She’s probably only meeting with him to make herself look important.
CP on February 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM
I am not Catholic. What the Catholics do in reference to the membership rights of any particular member of their church is entirely up to them. Right or wrong, they will have to live with the consequences of their actions.
None of the rest of us really have a dog in this fight.
Marking Time on February 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM
I’m sure Christ would buy those two reasons
/sarc
CDeb on February 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM
Just curious…
For those who are “for” denying her communion – are your feelings based on politics or religion?
I’m not downing or slamming anyone…I’m just curious as to what the answer may be. I’ve NEVER been one to slam someone according to their relgious doctrine or dogma, so that’s not where I’m coming from with this.
I happen to be Lutheran (ELCA),…Just incase anyone wonders.
Thanks.
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM
No one laid out the rules.
“Catholic Bashing” defined:
1. Quoting a Pope, Cathechism or Council.
2. Referring to historical events.
Muslims would like similar rules.
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM
I thought god just killed a puppy every time you did that?
MDWNJ on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Well, yeeaaahhhhh.
cjs1943 on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Ah let her have communion and eat and drink judgement on herself! As for the Border Guards being released this am, RIGHTON!!
Driefromseattle on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Yes. She is a public figure who publicly and proudly refuses to follow the teachings of the Church. She is nearly 70 years old, she cannot claim ignorance.
Angry Dumbo on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Allahpundit,
How is nerve required for that? This thread is about the catholic church acting as though it has some moral authority, which it doesn’t.
I will say, though, considering you seem to think “Allah” is exclusive to Muslims, that you really don’t know much about religions yourself.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Well maybe God and the Catholic Church can get rid of her, but we’re still stuck with her.
jeanie on February 17, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Since Communion is a big issue here, and Nancy worships at the laltar of Choice maybe she should just drink a little blood from and eat some flesh from an aborted baby. At last that would prove her contention that baby is not really human so it can’t be cannibalism.
sdd on February 17, 2009 at 3:27 PM
Not for women.
Except, isn’t leading others astray also considered a serious sin? If she believes and “teaches” that there is nothing wrong with abortion, then isn’t she doing something worse than having one herself?
Esthier on February 17, 2009 at 3:27 PM
I thought she was going over there to let the Pope know there is a new Messiah in town.
joedoe on February 17, 2009 at 3:27 PM
I am sure the Pope will be on his best behavior and meet with Pelosi and do the Christian thing and not raise the issue; however, what I am sure His Holiness is thinking when meeting with the Speaker is not “denial of communion” for Pelosi but “the performance of an exorcism”.
IntheNet on February 17, 2009 at 3:27 PM
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Open registrations bring back formerly banned HA commenters.
Entelechy on February 17, 2009 at 3:28 PM
The hole, stop digging.
Abby Adams on February 17, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Is the Pope catholic?
jbh45 on February 17, 2009 at 3:28 PM
I think it’s pretty telling that a majority of Catholics do not consider themselves pro-life.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:28 PM
And here I thought this thread was about whether or not Pelosi should be denied communion by the Catholic Church for her stance on abortion…
JetBoy on February 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM
It is based on the fact that abortion is about murder.
Think about the commandments.
Go read what TTheo wrote and tell me that is in’t bashing?
I could talk about Luthern, or Mormons.. but I don’t as this is not pretaining to them. Or even muslims.
Allah was spot on concerning that and i have to agree with him.
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM
I think she is there to tell him how mistaken he is on doctrine.
Vashta.Nerada on February 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM
No kittens.
Please, think of the kittens.
Esthier on February 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM
I’m a Catholic who is so annoyed by the Church. Why meet with an advocate for killing babies? For the Pope to meet with this endorser of abortion is an abomination. Either he excommunicates her, or denies her communion for life if she doesn’t switch her stance and endorse life even in politics; or the Church should change their position in abortion. If the Church does the latter, I am switching religions.
jencab on February 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Right, it’s good to know that disagreement and reference to historical facts is considered “bashing” here. I guess the huffpo rules for posting apply.
I assume all of you will call it “muslim bashing” the next time there is a post critical of them, right?
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM
I’m agnostic, so I don’t have a dog in this fight. HOWEVER, as devil’s advocate, I would have to say that the Pope is well within his authority to deny communion to her for not following church doctrine.
Vic on February 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM
I think it pretty telling that you actual believe that’s true.
Rocks on February 17, 2009 at 3:30 PM
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Good summary. Stretch’s support of NAMBLA is another strike in favor of her excommunication.
PimFortuynsGhost on February 17, 2009 at 3:31 PM
I think it’s more about the catholic church acting as though they are a moral authority on something, which they are not.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:31 PM
Is she really nearly 70? What a triumph for modern chemistry if that is the case. When does she start to crumble and pieces begin to chip off?
jeanie on February 17, 2009 at 3:31 PM
It’s a slippery slope. A lot has to do with what is in Pelosi’s heart. And, does she simply support abortion rights, or does she promote abortion.
JetBoy on February 17, 2009 at 3:31 PM
Well, he didn’t use the right historical context. I would agree with you that the post was inflammatory… but as a professional “Catholic Basher” (I quote the Popes and Councils), I have a little sympathy for anyone who is quickly labeled as a “basher.”
But I also agree that he accomplishing little (and probably hurting his own cause in the process).
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:32 PM
They’ve had poll after poll show that this is the case.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:32 PM
No, it’s about the Catholic Church being able to define what it means to be Catholic.
CDeb on February 17, 2009 at 3:33 PM
YES YES YES
rone5847 on February 17, 2009 at 3:33 PM
Right – I know about the commandments :-)
I was just curious about where people’s motivations are.
Pelosi is politically divisive.
And for some, religiously divisive as well.
That’s why I was curious.
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:33 PM
I think referencing Foxe’s book of martyrs, a very good historical book regarding persecutions, is pretty accurate as far as context goes.
I don’t really have a cause here, although I would like AP replaced with someone a bit more familiar with issues. But, I’m just a free poster, so who cares what I think.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:33 PM
Ohhhh. Great, i am allergic to cats. Carry on!
MDWNJ on February 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Not for being pro-choice, for actively supporting and encouraging abortion, yes!
LifeTrek on February 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM
It’s the dogma and it is actually based on conscience “God knows what is in your Heart” How will you approach God? It is also why we spend a lot of time on our knees “humility” There is God’s Will and their is Man’s Will. I would say that Nancy Pelosi is following Man’s Will and Liberal Expediency.
Think of that old radio show the Shadow…who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men..the Shadow knows.
Dr Evil on February 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Which, if you talk to any catholic priest or figure, they’ll tell you what it means to be “Christian” and “biblical”
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM
If Nancy had any real conscience, she would “recuse herself” from taking Communion until she had confessed and stopped committing this sin.
But she won’t.
And the Pope won’t excommunicate her.
Which is another instance of why I’m glad I’m a Protestant.
Jenfidel on February 17, 2009 at 3:34 PM
There are no words to describe how awful this POS woman is. What a disgrace. We have got to send her packin in Nov. 2010.
Winebabe on February 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM
You’re obviously anti-Catholic. Which is fine.
I don’t know where you’re getting that that is the subject of this thread tho. But doesn’t the Catholic Church have a sort of “moral authority” over a Catholic?
There’s nothing here about the Catholic Church exerting any “moral authority” over anyone else…
JetBoy on February 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Garbage, link to one.
Rocks on February 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Forgot to add this….When I said:
I wanted to also add: I don’t look to Pelosi and expect a lesson on religious morality. I know better.
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM
This is what scares me with people on here, acting as though they are the true representatives of morality.
TTheoLogan on February 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM
The return of Olaf. Open registrations has its side effects.
redrock on February 17, 2009 at 3:36 PM
You aren’t God… you are Man. I.E. you don’t tell me anything concerning God.
FYI, theologians have been proven wrong… and I am sure you have been as well. Stop while you are ahead, and here is your shovel.
upinak on February 17, 2009 at 3:36 PM
I’m still puzzled how the church (via one of its “princes”) can warn Catholic voters that they might be risking their eternal fates by simply voting for a pro-Choice candidate… while fiddling around the actual offenders (whom they KNOW are “cooperating with evil).
They don’t want to do it, because she is an American politician. The RCC is in a tenuous position in the US. If she truly enforced all her admonitions of “grave sins” she’d lose 80-90% of American Catholics.
If you are guilty of any “grave sin” you should not be taking communion (and the church should deny it if they know about it).
mankai on February 17, 2009 at 3:36 PM
For being publicly unrepentant in her position to encourage, promote, and sustain the murder of innocents, she must be denied. Her public actions warrant a public recanting or it will be scandal–wholly unworthy of the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.
Open and public rebellion against Church used to result in excommunication, but denial of the Eucharist is the bare minimum that she ought to be subject to.
GoodSamaritan on February 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Aren’t you acting that way?
JetBoy on February 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Thanks “Dr Evil”.
I appreciate your input. :-)
Talismen on February 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Yes. IMO He should also excommunicate her on the spot if she refuses to publicly renounce her positions. Then, he needs to have a chat with her Archbishop.
As a Catholic, I have been following this with interest. My understanding is that the Vatican is being briefed on Pelosi’s heresy/apostasy by Fr. Euteneuer of Human Life International. According to Fr. Euteneuer,
Actually, he is supposed to judge her actions and how they affect her, as well as cause scandal to the other members of the Church, which he has a duty to protect. “Whatsoever you hold bound…” and all that.
Don’t be so sure. The Pope made quite a stir when he appointed Archbishop Burke (formerly of St. Louis) to be head of the Apostolic Signatura (Churches high court). And Archbishop Burke has been adamant that politicians who support abortion should be denied Communion. I’m not saying it will happen, but I will NOT be surprised if it does. One can pray.
pannw on February 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM
She should be advised by her bishop not to receive Communion so as to avoid a confrontation during Mass. However, should she still present herself for Communion she should be denied because she has publicly misstated what the Church teaches, and has not recanted.
TTheo, I think you are greatly misled. I suggest reading “Rome Sweet Home” by Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian minister who had a similar distrust of all things Catholic before realizing just how scriptural the Catholic Church is. Even if you don’t agree with his conclusions, you’ll be able to see where we’re coming from on a lot of things, based on Scripture.
VanPalin on February 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Communion? She can’t commune with the American people, why should she try to commune with God? If I were God I wouldn’t answer the phone.
afotia on February 17, 2009 at 3:38 PM
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