Poll: Most believers don’t look to religion first when making moral decisions

posted at 5:08 pm on February 16, 2009 by Allahpundit

The data’s a year old but it’s been freshly mined by Gene Expression. Nothing too surprising, but it’s fun to compare sects. My favorite thought experiment in this vein is to wonder how most religious Americans would react to news that U.S. troops had cornered Bin Laden in some outhouse in Afghanistan and beat him to death with their rifle butts. Religiously, that sort of brutality isn’t something Christians (or at least Catholics) should be celebrating, but morally, I suspect most of them would find it oh so sweet. And rightly so.

Note how closely aligned Catholics, Jews, and mainline Protestants are, and alternatively how close evangelicals are to Mormons — a bitter irony for the Mittheads, given the conservative base’s issues with him. Think those trends are unique to this question? Try these three on for size, all taken from the same 2008 Pew poll:

Buddhists, unsurprisingly, are exceptionally mellow. Exit question: What explains the fact that Catholics are so much more centrist than evangelicals and Mormons? Is it … this?


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I can’t imagine why Christianity is dying here in the United States. When most who claim the title of “Christian” don’t have a Biblical worldview, one need not wonder why they don’t use the Bible for moral decision-making.

Send_Me on February 16, 2009 at 6:19 PM

because just like in europe, the governent is playing god, and why bother to go through all the trouble of asking the real God for something, when He may say NO…when you can go the government and whine loudly, and get what you want??

its the whole reason behind socialism…the desire for the government to be god…

right4life on February 16, 2009 at 7:35 PM

Shame on you linking to those racists at GNXP. Next you’ll be linking to Gates of Vienna.

Alex K on February 16, 2009 at 7:36 PM

Many of them have almost no clue what the Church teachings are. However, there is a smaller group of Catholics who takes the teachings seriously and tries to live by them. They may not wear it on their sleeve but it shows in their actions and the way they look at the world.

rapunzel77 on February 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Why did the Grail Shaped Beacon suddenly start throwing up images of Pelosi, Biden, Waters, and Kennedy, While these remain true?

unclesmrgol on February 16, 2009 at 7:40 PM

Shame on you linking to those racists at GNXP. Next you’ll be linking to Gates of Vienna.

Alex K on February 16, 2009 at 7:36 PM

Someone did that, not a week ago.

“Overall, 44 percent of Americans in the volunteer military call themselves Protestants and 24 percent say they are Catholics, according to the Defense Manpower Data Center. The other major world religions are not heavily represented: Muslims and Jews make up 0.3 percent each, Buddhists 0.2 percent and Hindus 0.1 percent. The “other” category numbered 5 percent.”

I think the US military would suffer SEVERE shortages of troops there Madison. If a “Rapture” would happen 68 percent of troops would disappear. My smear was of the low numbers of UN troops, not a slam on the US military. If it came off as such I apologize.

portlandon on February 16, 2009 at 6:05 PM

It sounded like you were denigrating those soldiers who were not Christian. As you’ve clarified that was not the case, I withdraw my outburst, and hope you are not offended.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM

I think that if REAL Christianity was imposed, those referring to themselves as Christians in America would fall DRASTICALLY. America is not a christian country, even though most identify themselves as Christians. Go ahead and censor the internet, restrict 80% of the shows on TV because of violence or sexual imagery, teach creation science in the classrooms, and we will see how many “Christians” like it.

thphilli on February 16, 2009 at 7:56 PM

I’d really like to see a poll on here, to ask how many posters actually think that Christians that don’t subscribe to their specific church aren’t “real Christians”, to get an idea how many are hypocritically committing pride while being simultaneously sanctimonius.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:00 PM

Hey, folks, why don’t we wake up and realize that true Catholics, true Mainline Protestants, true Evangelicals, true Mormons, true Jehovah’s Witnesses, and true Jews are going to need to quit arguing and ban together to fight back at the assault of atheism, amoralism, and socialism. (By “true” I mean those who have a true Judeo-Christian worldview or those who believe their Scriptures.) We don’t have to accept each other’s faith beliefs, but we need to stand for those views that our Scriptures promote in the face of the secular humanist philosophies taking over the culture. I haven’t found any modern socialists that promote our views. Look around, we are losing ground fast especially with the current crew in Washington. We cannot afford to fight each other at this time.

Christian Conservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:00 PM

Houston, we have rapture talk! Has St. Olaf returned?

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 5:39 PM

Did he get banned?

Skidd on February 16, 2009 at 8:01 PM

My favorite thought experiment in this vein is to wonder how most religious Americans would react to news that U.S. troops had cornered Bin Laden in some outhouse in Afghanistan and beat him to death with their rifle butts.

I would react by saying they didn’t do anything too much different than what the prophet Samuel did to the king of the Amalkites. 1Samuel 15:32-33

32Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.

33And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:02 PM

Newsflash: For those of us whose belief systems are as much a part of what they eat, drink and wear, we don’t need no stinkin’ poll to tell us how we follow our moral compass.

Tennman on February 16, 2009 at 8:04 PM

Did he get banned?

Skidd on February 16, 2009 at 8:01 PM

Yeah, he finally went too far with the “I’m god, you’re not, I damn you to hell” crap.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:05 PM

Tennman on February 16, 2009 at 8:04 PM

I think this poll is interesting and disturbing. Chistianity in America is pathetic.

Madison Conservative had it right. If all we can do is scream from church to church that ours is better, well, we deserve all we get from secular society and other churches.

Skidd on February 16, 2009 at 8:08 PM

Yeah, he finally went too far with the “I’m god, you’re not, I damn you to hell” crap.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:05 PM

Really? How do you know that he got banned?

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:09 PM

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:05 PM

i’ve been a poster here for about 3 years, but don’t post much. Was his banning recent? He was a sanctimonious poster.

Skidd on February 16, 2009 at 8:10 PM

Really? How do you know that he got banned?

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:09 PM

Allah replied to his final post with an implication that he wouldn’t be back.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM

St. Olaf bit the dust about a month ago. He had gotten to where you could not hold a civil discourse with him, insisting that his denomination was the only true Christian church while dominating threads with numerous lengthy posts.

kingsjester on February 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM

Here’s the link to the post in question.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Yeah, I remember on the one post he was complaining against either Madison or Estheir and said that they never had anything intelligent to add. Someone replied to him and asked him if it ever occurred to him that everyone else thinks the same of him. I was laughing when I read it.

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Here’s the link to the post in question.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Thanks. I was wondering where he has been. That clears things up.

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:23 PM

So Madison, I think I see you and Esthier comment more than anyone else on this site. Would you agree?

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:26 PM

As an Orthodox Christian, I will admit to being a bit shocked at those polls. However, like the Catholics, we have plenty of Orthodox Christians who are Orthodox because of their heritage as opposed to their beliefs (sort of like the Irish Catholic Kennedys who are pro-abortion). I am reminded of a homily one of our former priests gave where he was talking about the other Christian churches and said, “The world should conform to the church, the church should not conform to the world.” I think too many of my Christian brothers and sisters have conformed to the world.

tnmama on February 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM

So Madison, I think I see you and Esthier comment more than anyone else on this site. Would you agree?

NeverLiberal on February 16, 2009 at 8:26 PM

At times. Depends on the topic. We’re definitely among the most active.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:39 PM

I only look to the Bible (not religion) when making moral decisions

congma on February 16, 2009 at 8:40 PM

And this is a surprise?

Man has been rebelling against God ever since the fall of Adam.

Abraham feared man rather than God when he offered his wife to Pharaoh. – Genesis 12

Abraham didn’t trust God when he said he would have a son. Instead he agreed with his wife Sarai to have relations with her maid. – Genesis 16

And this was of whom scripture says had faith.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 8:41 PM

Yep, Catholics are less devout.

However, this is a very dumb poll. Most people who grew up religious have religious teaching ingrained in them. Whether they know it or not, they are including their religious teaching when making a moral decision.

jimmy the notable on February 16, 2009 at 5:37 PM

As a Catholic, I wonder if they are less devout because they believe that their sins can be forgiven by confessing (in confidence) to a priest, and can hear the priest give them absolution, while Protestants believe that only God can forgive sins, and are not sure of their forgiveness if they pray for it to God.

So a Catholic might know something is against his/her faith, but do it anyway and think “I’ll confess it next week”, whereas a Protestant might be worried about never being forgiven and going to H#ll…

You’ve got to wonder about surveys by a polling company called Pew, when the people in their samples may never have sat in one.

Steve Z on February 16, 2009 at 8:45 PM

Not to sound uppitty, but I only consider the scriptures(Bible) when making moral decisions. That’s the final authority. Anything else, and you are playing God

congma on February 16, 2009 at 8:47 PM

Yeah, he finally went too far with the “I’m god, you’re not, I damn you to hell” crap.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:05 PM

His rants were annoying but he was sometimes right. I don’t think he was banned for delusions of grandier. He must have said something hateful against someone of another belief. That’s still surprising to me but the only thing I can see.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 8:49 PM

His rants were annoying but he was sometimes right. I don’t think he was banned for delusions of grandier. He must have said something hateful against someone of another belief. That’s still surprising to me but the only thing I can see.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 8:49 PM

He referred to Judaism as the “antichrist” religion.

It fit right along with his attitude. He was an insane zealot who babbled about rapture and FEMA camps and gay conspiracies all while decrying everyone who did not belong to his church.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Not to sound uppitty, but I only consider the scriptures(Bible) when making moral decisions. That’s the final authority. Anything else, and you are playing God

congma on February 16, 2009 at 8:47 PM

I guess that “free will” stuff is out then, eh?

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:54 PM

Protestants believe that only God can forgive sins, and are not sure of their forgiveness if they pray for it to God.

So a Catholic might know something is against his/her faith, but do it anyway and think “I’ll confess it next week”, whereas a Protestant might be worried about never being forgiven and going to H#ll…

Steve Z on February 16, 2009 at 8:45 PM

Your very confused about Protestants. That is not what we believe. I know God forgives me when I ask for it. I don’t need an intercessor (priest) between Christ the mediator and the Father. Christ is enough.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
(Hebrews 9:11-15)

shick on February 16, 2009 at 8:55 PM

He referred to Judaism as the “antichrist” religion.

It fit right along with his attitude. He was an insane zealot who babbled about rapture and FEMA camps and gay conspiracies all while decrying everyone who did not belong to his church.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:53 PM

It seems I guessed right. His rabbidity was unique among other Orthodox I’ve met.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 8:57 PM

Not to sound uppitty, but I only consider the scriptures(Bible) when making moral decisions. That’s the final authority. Anything else, and you are playing God

congma on February 16, 2009 at 8:47 PM

Agree with you on final authority. But not all of today’s moral decisions can find specific answers in scripture. What about N-vitro fertilization?

Wisdom is required to understand scripture and apply it to life. Prayer is essential.

I admit. I need to consult God more for guidance as well.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 9:01 PM

He was an insane zealot who babbled about rapture and FEMA camps and gay conspiracies all while decrying everyone who did not belong to his church.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:53 PM

Aw c’mon Madison. You KNOW that SaintOlaf was a pussycat compared to Soothsayer.

CyberCipher on February 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM

Aw c’mon Madison. You KNOW that SaintOlaf was a pussycat compared to Soothsayer.

CyberCipher on February 16, 2009 at 9:13 PM

Are you kidding? Soothsayer was your typical, BDS-stricken troll. Olaf was a guy who would actually pick up a saber and start slaying infidels. I deal with the former in this town on a regular basis. They can be handled. The latter? Efffhhh…I dread meeting them in person.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM

I was reading some of the back comments about Saint Olaf and gather that he was Orthodox and was anti-Semetic in his comments. When I first started attending an Orthodox church, it was an Antiochian Orthodox church and from what I remember, since their Patriarch is in Syria, they do have anti-Israli sentiments. It is one of the reasons my husband and I left that church and started attending a Greek Orthodox church. Unfortunately, I guess every religion has quirks within their own communties.

tnmama on February 16, 2009 at 9:21 PM

Olaf was a guy who would actually pick up a saber and start slaying infidels. …I dread meeting them in person.

MadisonConservative on February 16, 2009 at 9:15 PM

Really? I’ve read many of his comments. None of them lead me to fearing him in person.

shick on February 16, 2009 at 10:07 PM

What religion is Olaf anyway…I was never really clear on that…

JetBoy on February 16, 2009 at 10:10 PM

Yeah, AP’s angling for the title of “Patron Saint of Friendly Fire,” no doubt.

Merovign on February 16, 2009 at 10:34 PM

This is why I don’t come to Hot Air much anymore. Atheists talk religion more than Christians do. You can’t prove there is no God/Creator and the discussion is really rather pointless. Benign religions are of benefit to societies, a fact our Founding Fathers agreed with for the most part. Why try to remove something that keeps order?

Connie on February 16, 2009 at 11:08 PM

As a side note, atheism creates the perfect growing field for the seeds of chaos.

Connie on February 16, 2009 at 11:12 PM

Herein i try to disprove “gods” existence: Most if not every major civilisation in human history has created there own variation of the same belief, that there is (A) a god or gods in many cases, a creator who looks down and oversees our existence in judgement, benevolence or both and (B) an afterlife, another plane of existence that waits for us after our death.
Both points are easily explainable as by-products of lack of scientific knowledge and a failue to comprehend the nature of death .

A: the absence of a scientific understanding of the natural world hundreds(Incas)and thousands(Romans,Vikings) of years ago inevitably leads to the belief in a creator (how else could the world exist).
B: it is impossible for the vast majority of the humanity (myself included) to comprehend that at death you simply cease to be, that your consciousness, your self awareness is simply gone into nothing. It is very much easier to believe that after you die your consciousness (soul if you like) travels to another plane of immortal existence than try to comprehend and accept complete and utter nonexistence.

The fact that so many completely different mythologys have been created throughout time by different civilisation independent of eachother with these two points central to each for me at least is proof enough that heaven, god etc is all make believe like santa if not infinitely more interesting anthropologically . To reference the great writer Oolon Colluphid “Well that about raps it up for God”.

Btw i dont mean any of this as a denegration of religious faith these are simply my beliefs and counter arguements are welcome…. oh and taking it back to the survey i was raised irish catholic(in Ireland no less) and was forced to go to church every week until i was 14, i still go Christmas and Easter for my grandmother.

Equanim1ty found on February 16, 2009 at 11:28 PM

Is it just me or are the Jews basically not religious on any meaningful scale?

radiofreevillage on February 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM

“Atheists talk religion more than Christians” -Connie

To be fair usually the only time you know someone is an atheist is when religion is being discussed. It’s not as though I lead in with “Hi I’m Amanda and I’m an Atheist” whenever people meet me. This is pretty much true of all atheists. I would say 90% of the time people who have known me for months and sometimes years are surprised when religion finally enters one of our conversations and they discover I am not-religious. (everyone thinks I’m christian since I am pretty “WASPish”- minus the “P” of course.

The religious affiliation of Christians is more apparent since often little clues are dropped, whether it be a cross around your neck or mentioning that you got “that great casserole recipe” from a woman at your church.

It’s not as though “non-golfers” are apparent until golf comes up and then they mention that they would not like to play and maybe even let you know why they don’t like the game. Same is true for atheists. Thus it is unfair to say your experience with atheists is that they always talk about religion since you probably know a lot more atheists than you think but since religion hasn’t come up they are not apparent. Just something to think about.

DustyGreen on February 17, 2009 at 12:13 AM

I think that has to do with the fact that Jew can mean two different things.

You can be of the Jewish Religion or your canbe of the Jewish national identity.

There is a very large number of secular Jews and have been historically as well. Einstein identified very strongly as a Jew (nationally) but he did not believe in God (so bviously no religiously)

DustyGreen on February 17, 2009 at 12:15 AM

Premptively,

since someone inevitably uses the poetic quotes of Einstein to claim that he did believe in God.ex. “God does not play dice”

In his letters Einstein said things like…

“the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”

and….

“for me, the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.”

DustyGreen on February 17, 2009 at 12:22 AM

because just like in europe, the governent is playing god, and why bother to go through all the trouble of asking the real God for something, when He may say NO…when you can go the government and whine loudly, and get what you want??
its the whole reason behind socialism…the desire for the government to be god…
right4life on February 16, 2009 at 7:35 PM

Funny, I recall a Marxist saying this very thing:
“Socialism is precisely the religion that must overwhelm Christianity. … In the new order, Socialism will triumph by first capturing the culture via infiltration of schools, universities, churches and the media by transforming the consciousness of society.” ~ Antonio Gramsci

Send_Me on February 17, 2009 at 12:24 AM

To me, my religion provides backbone. It’s just something that is with me. That said, when it comes to something like homosexuality, I use common sense. I’ve said here before that I am a nurture, not nature, believer. Gays rant against Christians because it is the easy thing to do. It takes the conversation away from science, which to this day, has never proved nature over nurture.

Connie on February 17, 2009 at 12:26 AM

radiofreevillage on February 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM

No, it’s just you. It’s called anti-semitism.

MadisonConservative on February 17, 2009 at 1:02 AM

No, it’s just you. It’s called anti-semitism.

Go sober up and try again. My question was with respect to the tables shown in the lead post.

P.S. Lack of religiosity is definitely a positive quality in my book. So if anything, I’m anti-you.

radiofreevillage on February 17, 2009 at 1:07 AM

To me, my religion provides backbone. It’s just something that is with me. That said, when it comes to something like homosexuality, I use common sense. I’ve said here before that I am a nurture, not nature, believer. Gays rant against Christians because it is the easy thing to do. It takes the conversation away from science, which to this day, has never proved nature over nurture.

Connie on February 17, 2009 at 12:26 AM

A tad of an ignorant statement here. There are many gays in my town that go to church. They do not rant against Christians. You act like you are God. Most gays are born gay. Get a clue and quit sounding like you are God.

sheebe on February 17, 2009 at 1:14 AM

Is it just me or are the Jews basically not religious on any meaningful scale?

radiofreevillage on February 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM

Somewhere around 35% of Jewry consider themselves within the Orthodox Jewish category.

Shy Guy on February 17, 2009 at 1:57 AM

Not to sound uppitty, but I only consider the scriptures(Bible) when making moral decisions. That’s the final authority. Anything else, and you are playing God

congma on February 16, 2009 at 8:47 PM

2Pet 1:20: This then you must understand first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

When you attempt to privately interpret Scripture in making moral decisions, you are indeed “playing God”.

2 Pet 3:16-17: And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

What is Peter getting at here?

Consider that even the most devout were unable to properly interpret Scripture until Jesus opened their minds:

Luke 24:44-45: He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.”

Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

So, as you consider Scripture, how do you know you are interpreting it properly? How do you know that Jesus has opened your mind? How do you check your personal instinct to distort the Word?

Proverbs 24:5-6: A wise man is more powerful than a strong man, and a man of knowledge than a man of might; for it is by wise guidance that you wage your war, and the victory is due to a wealth of counselors.

unclesmrgol on February 17, 2009 at 4:31 AM

What religion is Olaf anyway…I was never really clear on that…

JetBoy on February 16, 2009 at 10:10 PM

Olaf is (was?) a Byzantine Catholic.

Did he get banned?

Skidd on February 16, 2009 at 8:01 PM

Yes. I’m not sure why, but I think it was for rather blatant anti-Semitism. Ed Morrissey might want to comment on this, since he and Allahpundit made the determination and deleted Olaf’s causative comment before I had a chance to read it.

unclesmrgol on February 17, 2009 at 4:39 AM

Olaf was what Origen would have been had there been blogs in the 3rd century.

Shy Guy on February 17, 2009 at 4:52 AM

We cannot afford to fight each other at this time.

Christian Conservative on February 16, 2009 at 8:00 PM

We do have separation of Church and State, so, if we are talking about politics, fine. But just within the confines of our own discussions here, there are quite a few schismatic thoughts.

We have conservatives who are pro and anti abortion.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti gay rights.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti education.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti immigration.
We have conservatives who think some form of stimulus to the economy is needed, and others that think it is unneeded.

You name the issue, and you’ll find a conservative who disagrees with you on that issue, but agrees with you on a whole bunch of other issues.

Liberals are far better at subordinating their varied interests for the group, while we conservatives are somewhat rugged individualists who don’t do that very well.

The people in the center want a bit of both, and they are the people who tip elections one way or the other. I doubt the Democrats will hold onto the power they have now for more than one term; I don’t think we will be wandering in the desert for 40 years like they did — maybe 20 at most (the length of FDR’s legacy).

unclesmrgol on February 17, 2009 at 4:52 AM

unclesmrgol

Maybe you’re being simplistic for the sake of brevity, but being a conservative means something. You make it appear that conservatives are all over the map. Your experience may certainly be different from mine, but in my experience with the conservatives I know there is a set of values that define us and they are pretty common. Some (mostly pundits and bloggers) call themselves conservatives but really aren’t.
Most conservatives value life and at worst try to be neutral on abortion.
We are not anti gay rights, we are pro marriage and anti special rights for alternate lifestyles.
Anti education??? Certainly anti liberal indoctrination.
We are most certainly not anti immigration. We are anti illegal immigration. Do not confuse the two.
We generally believe that the private sector can maintain itself without onerous government intervention and that economic downturns are natural and self-correcting when allowed to do so.
If we water down the definition of conservative like we’ve watered down the definition of Republican, then what the hell does any of it mean?

SKYFOX on February 17, 2009 at 5:32 AM

Religiously, that sort of brutality isn’t something Christians (or at least Catholics) should be celebrating, but morally, I suspect most of them would find it oh so sweet. And rightly so.

I’m supposed to turn my other cheek, for offenses against me. I don’t have to do that for people who would kill my children (or kill you Allah, for that matter). That’s not vengeance. That’s justice. That’s Godly.

Squiggy on February 17, 2009 at 6:01 AM

We have conservatives who are pro and anti abortion.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti gay rights.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti education.
We have conservatives who are pro and anti immigration.
We have conservatives who think some form of stimulus to the economy is needed, and others that think it is unneeded.

I know of no real conservatives who are pro gay rights! Gay rights is not a conservative issue! Conservatives do not view this as a civil rights issue! Christian Conservatives, like myself, do not feel this is a legitimate lifestyle choice and should not be codified into our nations laws!

I know of no conservatives who are “anti-education”! We are, however anti-”liberal education” which is currently dumbing down our kids and teaching them nonsense including Global Warming and Political Correctness with no balancing view point!

Conservatives are not anti-immigration! Just anti-illegal immigration! Why is that hard to understand…oh yea…it isn’t!

Conservatives are anti-stimulus by the Government…every time! Unless the stimulus is to get money in the hands of taxpayers through less spending by the taxing authorities! Increased spending by government NEVER EVER works to stimulate an economy! It has never worked! It will never work! EVER!

sabbott on February 17, 2009 at 6:04 AM

Most gays are born gay. Get a clue and quit sounding like you are God.

sheebe on February 17, 2009 at 1:14 AM

Most alcoholics are born with an uncontrollable pre-disposition to drink heavily, and are unable to stop. By your logic, not drinking is not being true to themselves. Sobriety is not who they really are, and it’s wrong to try to be what you’re not. So just accept them, and don’t you dare look down on the winos.

Does this make sense?

Born gay or turned gay is not a valid argument. Whether or not it’s good for you is. I’m open to an argument about the inherent “goodness” of homosexuality. Let me have it………..

Squiggy on February 17, 2009 at 6:14 AM

I know of no real conservatives who are pro gay rights! Gay rights is not a conservative issue! Conservatives do not view this as a civil rights issue! Christian Conservatives, like myself, do not feel this is a legitimate lifestyle choice and should not be codified into our nations laws!
sabbott on February 17, 2009 at 6:04 AM

About 20 states have laws preventing employment discrimination against gay people. If you look at the trend over the past 40 years there is an increased recognition of gay people in law.

dedalus on February 17, 2009 at 8:56 AM

Go sober up and try again. My question was with respect to the tables shown in the lead post.

P.S. Lack of religiosity is definitely a positive quality in my book. So if anything, I’m anti-you.

radiofreevillage on February 17, 2009 at 1:07 AM

I’m neither drunk, nor am I theistic. I’m agnostic. Try again, junior.

MadisonConservative on February 17, 2009 at 9:06 AM

Ed Morrissey might want to comment on this, since he and Allahpundit made the determination and deleted Olaf’s causative comment before I had a chance to read it.

unclesmrgol on February 17, 2009 at 4:39 AM

What are you talking about? They didn’t delete anything. It’s still there.

MadisonConservative on February 17, 2009 at 9:07 AM

Born gay or turned gay is not a valid argument. Whether or not it’s good for you is. I’m open to an argument about the inherent “goodness” of homosexuality. Let me have it………..

Squiggy on February 17, 2009 at 6:14 AM

For people who are gay they benefit from the stability that committed relationships provide. They find the alternatives of living in a straight relationship or living alone less rewarding.

dedalus on February 17, 2009 at 9:08 AM

Christian Conservatives, like myself, do not feel this is a legitimate lifestyle choice and should not be codified into our nations laws!

sabbott on February 17, 2009 at 6:04 AM

Bull. Iranian execution squads don’t feel it’s a legitimate lifestyle choice. Are you saying conservatives feel the same?

MadisonConservative on February 17, 2009 at 9:09 AM

Most gays are born gay.

There is no hard evidence which supports this claim. Even Camille Paglia, who is gay herself, believes that this “gays are born that way” idea is total PC rubbish.

The question is often asked whether being gay is inborn or a choice, as if those are the only 2 options. Some believe (Paglia included) that sexual orientation develops out of psychological and enviromental factors during early childhood. Not exactly what you’d call a choice but not something that can be called inborn.

Many gay activists don’t like this. They prefer to insist that homosexuality is inborn because they feel it takes the issue off the table as a moral concern.

Do those who insist homosexuality is inborn also think pedophilia is inborn? I’m not drawing a moral equivalence here between homosexuality and pedophilia, all I’m saying is that our sexual inclinations are either inborn or they’re not. If the mere presence of a sexual inclination makes it “natural” then we have to be willing to take that argument to it’s logical conclusion and say that pedophilia is natural.

I’m not a gay basher here. I have gay friends and believe that whether gay or straight we are all human beings deserving of dignity and respect. I’m just tired of all the PC BS where statements like “people are born gay” become orthodoxy absent any logic, evidence or facts.

frank63 on February 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM

You don’t need to when it is part of your being…you don’t “look” first to religion, if you are a Christian it just is…

right2bright on February 17, 2009 at 10:14 AM

Herein i try to disprove “gods” existence: Most if not every major civilisation in human history has created there own variation of the same belief, that there is (A) a god or gods in many cases, a creator who looks down and oversees our existence in judgement, benevolence or both and (B) an afterlife, another plane of existence that waits for us after our death.
Both points are easily explainable as by-products of lack of scientific knowledge and a failue to comprehend the nature of death .

A: the absence of a scientific understanding of the natural world hundreds(Incas)and thousands(Romans,Vikings) of years ago inevitably leads to the belief in a creator (how else could the world exist).
B: it is impossible for the vast majority of the humanity (myself included) to comprehend that at death you simply cease to be, that your consciousness, your self awareness is simply gone into nothing. It is very much easier to believe that after you die your consciousness (soul if you like) travels to another plane of immortal existence than try to comprehend and accept complete and utter nonexistence.

The fact that so many completely different mythologys have been created throughout time by different civilisation independent of eachother with these two points central to each for me at least is proof enough that heaven, god etc is all make believe like santa if not infinitely more interesting anthropologically . To reference the great writer Oolon Colluphid “Well that about raps it up for God”.

Btw i dont mean any of this as a denegration of religious faith these are simply my beliefs and counter arguements are welcome…. oh and taking it back to the survey i was raised irish catholic(in Ireland no less) and was forced to go to church every week until i was 14, i still go Christmas and Easter for my grandmother.

Equanim1ty found on February 17, 2009 at 10:37 AM

Most alcoholics are born with an uncontrollable pre-disposition to drink heavily, and are unable to stop. By your logic, not drinking is not being true to themselves. Sobriety is not who they really are, and it’s wrong to try to be what you’re not. So just accept them, and don’t you dare look down on the winos.

Does this make sense?

Born gay or turned gay is not a valid argument. Whether or not it’s good for you is. I’m open to an argument about the inherent “goodness” of homosexuality. Let me have it………..

Squiggy on February 17, 2009 at 6:14 AM

Squiggy, I am not going to argue with you or anyone else? Are you gay? My son is and I knew he was when he was a baby. I have met parents for years that felt the same thing. I didn’t say it is good to be gay. They wish they weren’t. (Some gays). Some gays don’t understand why they are gay. Then again you have some that were straight then turned gay. Just like drunks. I just get tired of hearing hypocrites claim that all gays are against God. There are your full on radical gays, but then there are many gays that do go to church. I don’t go to church. A building with a bunch of people is not my cup of tea. One can have faith in God without having to herd with sheep. I am not saying one has to accept them. You read with a twisted way. You or others as well is me, are not God. We know our Bibles and we read about how God feels about Gays. We are the sinners. The Gays have to live with who they are. As we have to live with who we are. There are some Gays that are not screaming fowl. In the end, we as well as them Gay, a Alcoholic, drug addict and so on will answer.

sheebe on February 17, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Sheebe, Squiigy,

Sheebe you are right, ignore squiggy. There have been a few really interesting studies in the last few years that reinforce the born gay stance.
The one I found most interesting was that the more biological older brothers one has the more likely you are to be gay (nature). It has nothing to do with being raised with older brothers (nurture). In the study they included people who had been raised alone sepereatly from their older biological kin (adoption) and boys who grew up with older brothers who where not genetically related (step brothers, adoption etc)as well as typical nuclear families.
What they found is that important factor in determining if someone is likely to be gay is that someone is carried in a womb that has already carried male fetus’.
Why is this relevant, well it suggests that homosexuality is likley to be a prenatal effect.One possibility is a maternal immune response to succeeding male fetuses. The mother may react to a male fetus as foreign but not to a female fetus because the mother is also female. The likelihood of this reaction increases with each sucessive male fetus increasing the likelihood of being gay. While it is possible to have the effect with the first male fetus it is more likely with succesive one since a woman’s body “learns” from past pregnancies.
One of these “brother studies” was done by Anthony F. Bogaert of Brock University in St. Catharines, if you want to look it up.
Squiggly It looks like you should too!

DustyGreen on February 17, 2009 at 11:45 AM

Squiggly It looks like you should too!

DustyGreen on February 17, 2009 at 11:45 AM

You didn’t read what I said, did you? I asked a question and you get riled. Why so touchy?

Squiggy on February 17, 2009 at 7:22 PM

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