One-third of Europeans blame the economic collapse on …
posted at 12:20 pm on February 13, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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…. the Joooooooos. Anti-Semitic attitudes have increased in the wake of the economic collapse, a study across seven European countries has found, with a third of Europeans blaming the Jews for the economy. Spain appears to have the highest levels of animosity towards Jews:
The Anti-Defamation League said Tuesday that a survey it commissioned found nearly a third of Europeans polled blame Jews for the global economic meltdown and that a greater number think Jews have too much power in the business world.
The organization, which says its aim is “to stop the defamation of Jewish people and secure justice and fair treatment to all,” says the seven-nation survey confirms that anti-Semitism remains strong.
The poll included interviews with 3,500 people – 500 each in Austria, Britain, France, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Spain.
It says that in Spain, 74 percent of those asked say they feel it is “probably true” that Jews hold too much sway over the global financial markets. That is the highest percentage in the survey.
Nearly two-thirds of Spanish respondents said Jews were more loyal to Israel than they were to their home countries.
Anti-Semitism is an old security blanket for people when they can’t get around to blaming themselves. It’s a superstition as old as two millenia, with no rationality to it at all. Europe indulges in this on a regular basis. When Germany collapsed in World War I, no one wanted to take responsibility for conducting an utterly destructive war that bankrupted their nation and killed millions. It was a lot easier to blame the Jews for their own failures — and it led to disastrous consequences.
America isn’t immune to this, either, nor the rest of the Anglosphere. In fact, one of Barack Obama’s appointees, Samantha Power, made an allusion to this a few years ago in an interview, and others in American political life have been less subtle. In Britain last year, 50% surveyed thought British Jews more loyal to Israel than the UK. At the same time, 31% of Americans thought the same about American Jews. Do people question the loyalties of Catholics, Anglicans, the Irish? Perhaps a fringe do, but nowhere near as mainstream as these numbers suggest.
Make no mistake about it; the Jews of the West are in danger of getting completely marginalized at a very bad time in history for it to happen. If those numbers continue to grow, we can expect pressure from these Western nations to abandon Israel, and more importantly, to abandon the fight against radical Islamist terrorism and Iranian hegemony in the Middle East.
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Take a huddle with one of the other people here, who has already written that (their words) “73% of Jews” vote as Democrats/for Obama, though I now paraphrase.
They represent one of those Democrat voting blocks in the U.S., same as Blacks and now “Hispanics.” Most of it is yet to be discussed as to why because someone (here, at least) seems to show up and start calling people terrible names, and therein ends any meaningful, constructive discussion.
Feinstein, Schumer, Frank, Emanuel, etc. — so many among the Democrats today responsble for a great deal of advancement of Socialism in the U.S. — are Jewish and merit here as to their politics being countered. I pointed that out.
For all the ridiculing many here devote to other (Europe, whomever, the list is a long one) you don’t seem to be a very bright bunch.
The majority of Jews in the U.S. tend toward or represent Leftwing, Liberal politics and vote accordingly. So if and as you’re ridiculing Europe, you may want to look at today’s Leftwing in the U.S. and analyze this in the same context (the claim that 1/3 of Europeans are blaming the Jews, etc.). There’s too much there to discuss that never is discussed, unfortunately.
P.S.: I blame no one specifically but today’s Democrats in general for our own nation’s problems. I think Europe is having a lot of problems mostly due to it’s immigration stress — the EU has created too many problems in all it’s member nations as to the local populations and it’s not without reasons why. I don’t know or even have looked into it, however, as to how “the Jews” are involved in that.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Judaism isn’t based on race either.
Anyone who wants to can become a Jew, and many have.
MarkTheGreat on February 13, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Sephardic Jews would agree with you.
Bishop on February 13, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Relax for God’s sake. I am making an observation. I live here & it’s only the residents of German-descent (very recent immigrant ancestors) that I am making this observation about.
I do not see this as a rule in the Sandinavians or the Irish.
My observation is valid bcs many of these Germans in ND immigrated during the very late 1800’s to the ’20s-30’s when the $shit was hitting the fan in Germany.
So get a clue here & realize I am not out to demonize these people (my husband’s family included).
It is a VALID point. And I know it stems from the recent immigrant attitudes they brought with them to here.
I never called these people ‘evil’ & I never insisted it was some inbred thing.
I am an amateur genealogist & I think the parallel is interesting.
A lot of people in the communities I live in & around are anti-semitic & they can’t even tell you why. But oftentimes the 1st words out of their mouths when you’re talking about the economy is about what the Jews have done.
Get some thick skin folks.
God sakes.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 1:20 PM
First of all, as a Catholic, I’m frequently criticized on my ties to the Vatican.
Luckily for me, the Vatican States were defeated in battle over a hundred years ago (by fellow Catholics, of course). For nearly 50 years, an “armistice” existed between Italy and the Vatican State, which was only cleared up in 1930 by the Lateran Treaty.
With respect to Israel, the Jews have a problem because that state was defined to have a Jewish identity from the outset, is heavily armed, and, whether people here think so or not, has confiscated land from the Palestinians, much as we once confiscated lands from the Indians.
A Jewish religious state, supported worldwide by its co-religionists, has come to represent, for better or for worse, the Jews themselves. Its achievements are theirs, and its embarrassments are theirs too.
It’s right there, just waiting, like the Vatican State is for me.
One of my Jewish coworkers recently commented that at temple, the Rabbi’s sermon started with a list of top financiers implicated in the economic meltdown. He then pointed out the religious identity of the names, and said that, while the list might smack of anti-Semitism, it was also true. He then asked for show of hands of those whose livelihoods, pensions, etc. were affected. Nearly everyone’s hand went up.
My next door neighbor, also a Jew, has had his line of credit canceled (replacement of our termite-ridden common fence is on hold).
All ships lifted and fell equally in the kind of economy we had prior to Stimulus. I don’t notice any Jewish ships nearby weathering the tide any better than mine is.
Interesting that you should mention that. The Moors used Jews to administer their tax service and as shock soldiers against the newly-conquered Christians. Any history of Moorish conquest and occupation of Granada would be instructive, since it was at Grenada that the edict expelling the Jews was issued. In essence, any reading of Spanish history has the Jews as a people being at times persecuted and at other times persecuting. It so happens that their alliance with the Moors (to the point that the Moors issued requests to the Byzantines to allow unchallenged Jewish emigration to al-Andalusa) came back to haunt them.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Obama got about 65.5 million votes. The white vote was about 94 million. CNN says approx. 43% of whites voted for Obama. That means over 40 million white votes for Obama. Most whites are Christians. White Christians gave the win to Obama.
Now, if you want to argue that they’re really liberals, and not true Christians, the same could be said about the Jews.
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 1:21 PM
And the world comes to a stop, I guess, or is your expectation.
I don’t recognize Wright as Christian for the simple fact that he “preaches” non-Christian ideology. Ergo, the man is not a Christian.
If he IS a Christian, he keeps it buried far inside and acts disparately, accordingly.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:21 PM
You described that you’ve noticed “increased anti-semitism” in your experience in, what, North Dakota. And then went on to say that among those so you allege are involved, there are a lot of people of “German descent” and added that snark, “curiously.”
It’s a prejudicial statement, or, let me get more specific here, it’s a disparaging aside, you’re suggesting a correlation there that disparages an entire and very wide-ranging group of people, which is, in fact, what negative stereotyping is all about.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:23 PM
Funny thing is, most liberals are not Jews. But lots of Jews are too. For some people, that’s a good enough reason to separate them out for specific scrutiny.
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 1:24 PM
< = Idiot math.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:24 PM
And what in the world does that assumption you’re making there even mean? Do YOU think “the Jews” are, what…my mind trails off because I can’t understand what it is you are even suggesting or trying to state but avoiding doing so.
Let’s return to this article itself and look at that. The “Europeans” are by a 1/3 of their population today “blaming the Jews” for their current economic problems.
From there, we get to that statement you’re making as also your earlier wretched aspersions. Do YOU have “problems” with “the Jews” are European and/or loathe “Christians” or those you assume may be “Christians” who just might be responsible for “blaming” “the Jews”?
It seems you’re working some angle but are just not willing to spit it out directly. I struggle to even find your sense and context there. Stop generalizing, it’d be a good place to start actually making a point, any point.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:27 PM
And the world comes to a stop, I guess, or is your expectation.
I don’t recognize Wright as Christian for the simple fact that he “preaches” non-Christian ideology. Ergo, the man is not a Christian.
If he IS a Christian, he keeps it buried far inside and acts disparately, accordingly.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Nice snark, come naturally or an online course?
I recognize Wright as a Christian for the simple fact that I don’t accept you or anyone else delineating and pontificating on what constitutes a “real” Christian.
Shocking, I know, that others don’t automatically accept your haughty opinions as fact. And look, the world didn’t come to a stop. Yay.
Bishop on February 13, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Yes, just like in Europe, people who expect something for nothing always go for liberals. Liberals keep promising the welfare class more and more freebies, thus expanding their voter base. When you benefit from others hard work, you envy that they have more then you, you deserve a bigger share.
That is why I believe a certain segment hates Jews, because they get educated, work hard and successful. That must really piss off the liberal chattering class.
cdn.infidel on February 13, 2009 at 1:29 PM
I see you failed basic logic.
Saying that most Jews vote Democratic is not equivalent to saying that most liberals are Jews.
MarkTheGreat on February 13, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Define “Liberal”.
Then define what you MEAN (be specific) by “most liberals are not Jews” (which is likely because of the population percentages overall, however).
Then define your strange conclusion. I think what you NEED to maintain is some victimization about “Jews”. Yes, no? Which is it?
Last time I read anything, anything at all, about voter demographics, by far and away, the higher percentage of “Jews” IN THE U.S. vote as Democrats and ARE Liberal.
Do you blame them for that? I don’t. I just don’t understand it, or your assumptions, without more substantitive statements.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:31 PM
You write a lot, but say nothing.
Most of the libs in Congress are NOT jewish, as you said.
Most liberals are NOT jewish, as you said.
Most of Obama’s voters were White, contrary to what you state.
If you don’t think his white voters were Christians, because you don’t like their brand of Christianity, (like wright)fine. Yet you blame some Jew’s liberalism on their religion.
That’s what makes you an anti-semite.
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 1:32 PM
I’ve run out of interest in pursuing this with you. Sorry.
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 1:34 PM
The problem with even trying to respond to nonsense such as you’ve written and continue to write here, as with a few others, is you’re unable to understand a great deal and have a rather urgent need to impose your pre-existing and quite defammatory, negative assumptions on others based upon your own clouded thinking.
You “see” nothing there. I have no need to define anyone as anything other than have attempted to respond to this ariticle. You, however, are motivated by some underlying hostitilies that are not based in reality, but upon your own bleak perceptions.
Does it BOTHER you that the higher percentage of Jews in the U.S. vote as Democrats? Say so. Don’t start alleging that I declare what you allege.
I am not bothered by nor sit around and worry about “most Jews” voting however. And, you know, I don’t spend any time actually thinking about that, either.
I point out that among the Democrats that most here critiicise can be found the same ongoing Leftwing Democrats — who are Jewish.
So? What’s that to you?
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Read what I wrote & you’ll notice I never ‘noticed’
.
There is no increase. I has simply been here ever since I arrived in ‘99. My husband grew up here & is the grandson of German immigrants on Dad’s paternal side & Hungarian immigrants on his Dad’s maternal side.
The Jew prejudice from them & his Dad is something my husband remembers very distinctly growing up & he wonders where it came from.
There is a clear correlation from my observations here in SW ND that descendants of these general ethnic groups harbor some kind of anti-semitism as a group.
It’s unfortunate that I cannot make disparaging observations. If they disturb you, then close your ears bcs it happens in front of my eyes here.
If I wanted it to be a snark I would have put curiously in quotes, & I did not.
Stereotypes are often true & pretending they don’t exist to stop hurt feelings doesn’t make them go away.
Not all stereotypes are negative, either.
This one happens to be.
Am I engaging in disparaging information when I make the connection that a huge percentage of all terrorists world-wide are Muslims?
I don’t play the PC game.
I do not go around in my community & look at these people & judge them for their ancestors left-over attitudes.
They are what they are & I find it very interesting that attitudes like this can still hold on in people who are removed from the mechanism that built them.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Oh, good.
Enjoy your life of crime and perversion. I mean, what with your earlier name-calling about me, I’m just following along with your demented reasoning, calling you a burglar, child molestor, wife beater and cannibal.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:37 PM
That’s how I feel. It’s seems lately that every time Ed or Allah post something that is Jewish related someone has to come out start making condensing remarks about Jew this Jew that. Blah, Blah, Jews=Liberal=Bad. It’s sad. Buckley was better than this, unfortunately, a lot of his blind followers are not.
Lance Murdock on February 13, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Cultures can often be misperceived by others, cultural views, attitudes, preferences, these can very often be and are perceived wrongly WHEN SOMEONE IS NEWLY INTRODUCED TO A DIFFERENT CULTURE and THEN EXERCISES PRE-EXISTING FEARS ABOUT THAT CULTURE.
Which is what I think may be your experience. You PERCEIVE
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:39 PM
The world should rest assured that the remnant of Israel, the Messianic Jews, will come out on top in the end.
“I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.” ~ Revelation 20:4-6
Send_Me on February 13, 2009 at 1:39 PM
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Did you take stupid pills or what? Confiscated land from whom? Israel was attacked and made the mistake (in your opinion) of kicking the shit out of her enemies.
Hilts on February 13, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Three fingers point back, dude. Three point back.
This isn’t a battle you can win, since your own comment “pontificating” that you will determine for yourself who is (or is not) a Christian indicates that Lourdes is allowed a similar freedom, which she has duly exercised.
And it is rather flimsy reasoning to recognize someone as a Christian solely because someone else chooses not to recognize them as such. You ought to be a bit more rigorous than that.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 1:43 PM
This thread got weird fast. What happened to that meeting Lourdes?
It can’t be very surprising that Jews are being blamed here. We said, “never again,” but those were our fathers and grandfathers, and beautiful but dying group.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 1:43 PM
The Iberian Pennisula is now thought by some paleoanthropologits to be the last habitat of Neaderthals. Perhaps the cross-breeding hypothesis gains more evidence…
DarkCurrent on February 13, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Cultures can often be misperceived by others, cultural views, attitudes, preferences, these can very often be and are perceived wrongly WHEN SOMEONE IS NEWLY INTRODUCED TO A DIFFERENT CULTURE and THEN EXERCISES PRE-EXISTING FEARS ABOUT THAT CULTURE.
Which is what I think may be your experience. You PERCEIVE
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:39 PM
…Sorry, cut off too early, keyboard error.
To finish my point, you appear to PERCEIVE a different culture through your own “filter.” And judge accordingly.
More time and thoughtful discussion may just disprove your pre-existing conclusions about those “of German descent” people in North Dakota.
And not particularly liking or preferring to be around other “types” and kinds of people doesn’t NECESSARILY nor inherently represent prejudice or, specifically, INDICATE “anti-Semitism.”
The point I made earlier was that term is terribly and very often today wrongly, loosely and amorally applied to persons when it is not applicable, and used to denigrate, harass, embarass and even shame others when it’s entirely inappropriate.
Unless your neighbors group together and discuss exterminating “Jews” (or anyone else), decry and work to destroy the nation of Israel and then instruct others to do likewise, because they harbor irrational hatred for “Jews” (or hatred at all, calling it irrational is an oxymoron), THEN calling people (”of German descent”) who may not particularly chose to associate with Jews is wrong.
Everyone of every race and ethnicity has preferences as to who they enjoy socializing with and why, same with business and marriage and everything else. A lot of that is due to individual differences of values. And there is nothing wrong in any free society in acting individually to try to secure that which you hold most important.
WHEN, however, it verges into some organized or methological plan or plot to destroy an entire class or “kind” of person, a group of people who you may not particularly care for, THEN it verges on if not manifests prejudice and at it’s worse, crime and crimes against humanity.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:45 PM
THEN calling people (”of German descent”) who may not particularly chose to associate with Jews is wrong.
Should read,
THEN calling people (”of German descent”) who may or may not particularly chose to associate with Jews, as “anti-Semites,” is wrong.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:47 PM
I “perceive”. After 10 yrs of living in SW ND, here are my ‘perceptions”:
I have ‘heard’ over countless table discussions in bars, dances, weddings, get-togethers, etc SW-Dakotans with KNOWN recent German ancestry ’say’ things about Jews like:
“Those Jews are all going to be the ruination of this country”
“Those damned Jews are all crooks”
“Them Jews-they’re always trying to stiff ya”
“Damned Jews got too much money”
“He f-%#ing Jewed me over”
Etc….
This is what you are saying I have “perceived”.
Conclusion: when I hear a distinct group of people says things like this over & over again, out of the blue & with no provocation, I make a connection. This is the connection I have made.
You can argue with me about how my conclusion is ‘disparaging’ but it doesn’t change the fact that these groups of people where I live have been saying these things all along about Jews.
And my husband, a lifelong resident came to this conclusion years ago himself before ever meeting me.
I have come to agree with his conclusion, based on the evidence I have seen & based on what he has seen.
Overall I see an irrational prejudice against Jews down here in the recent German ancestry bunch.
So call me prejudice all you want.
I have lived in many places all over the US & I have never experienced this before.
I think it is very strange.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Yeah, I don’t like libs. But good grief, it has nothing to do with their religious beliefs. Usually they don’t even have any.
Can you imagine objection to the way black people or Hispanics vote, and blaming it on their Christianity?
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 1:48 PM
I believe that a European abandonment of Israel strengthens Israel’s hand in dealing with Iran and its puppet groups. Once Israel sheds its illusions that the Europeans and to some extent the Obama administration cares about its survival they will have a free hand to defend their nation. After all, if the world gives its blessing to the extinction of Israel then Israel is free to employ its entire arsenal in self defense. This moment is almost upon us. So what are the Euros going to do when Israel nukes Iran out of existence? Shake their fingers at them?
jerryofva on February 13, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Meeting is on hold. Thanks for your “concern.”
There are many here in comments who can’t or won’t correspond in anything but sarcasm, attempting to be cute or entertaining in ridiculous terms.
There’s a time and place for that, but, what occurs here is anyone gets tagged ugly terms that are nonsensical and cruelly applied. There are many people here who seem to function entirely in negative stereotypes about apparently everyone else.
Flippant, irresponsible name-calling.
Meeting’s on, so long.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:50 PM
And read half the crud here by the name-callers in comments and you can readily see that among all of humanity, there exists that lower “third” or dismal lower echelon who can’t crawl any higher than the lower rung. It’s just the pathetic, struggling, sad part of humanity, present among ALL people everywhere.
Lourdes on February 13, 2009 at 1:52 PM
No, I did not take stupid pills. And Moshe Dayan would certainly disagree with you with respect to the Israeli confiscation of land from Palestinian civilians — his autobiography makes that quite clear. His conscience in this regard was tested in at least one interchange he had with David Ben Gurion with respect to the rules of war; sadly, from the acts which followed, he apparently decided to follow Ben Gurion’s advice.
We know and quite a few of us deplore what General Custer was going about when he lost his life at Little Big Horn. I give the Israelis about 40 more years to figure it out for themselves with reagard to whom their General Custers were.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 1:53 PM
During the Spanish Inquisition, a Catholic Chimney Sweep was interrogated because of his friendship with Jews. The Inquisitor asked a long series of questions, trying to get the man to betray his friends. But nothing worked. The man claimed to be ignorant of any crimes committed by his Jewish friends.
Frustrated, the Inquisitor asked, “Surely, you must know the source of all evil in the world?”
The Chimney Sweep exclaimed, “Yes! The Jews and the Chimney Sweeps!”
Confused, the Inquisitor asked, “Why the Chimney Sweeps?”
The man replied, “Why the Jews?”
Loxodonta on February 13, 2009 at 1:53 PM
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Big difference between her and I, Chuck, in that I’m not attacking others based on my opinion of what constitutes a Christian; her argument is baseless.
As for rigor, you might have been a bit more rigorous yourself to recognize that opinions without supporting facts are just that, opinions. I couldn’t care less what you consider “flimsy reasoning” because all too often you spend your time here pretending to be the oracle of all topics, and believe me when I say it’s REALLY getting old.
Bishop on February 13, 2009 at 1:54 PM
After reading the rest of your belated reply, I will say that while the people down here certainly don’t talk about killing the Jews, I have heard many say in hushed tones that the Holocaust was really their fault, they brought it on themselves bcs of their lending practices, etc.
There are some here that think Israel should be gotten rid of in some way.
It’s very similar to the view that ‘moderate’ Muslims sometimes have. They don’t exactly think the killing is right, but they support terrorist goals.
And while these people certainly don’t share Muslim views, they share a prejudicial attitude about Jews that I think is a leftover ancestral attitude of some kind.I don’t know how it got there, but many of them have it.
A spade is a spade.
This kind of talk I find very disgusting & I root it out & stop it whenever I hear it.
The mere pointing out of these correlations does not make me prejudice.
But judge me all you want.
To me a Jew is a person as a German is a person as a Muslim is a person etc.
I could actually care less what a person is, as long as they are ‘good’ to me & ‘good’ in their way of life in general.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 1:54 PM
CRAP! how is it that jews are always blamed for the world problems. when stalin killed 600000000 of hsi own people the whole world did not even flinch. while the chinese leaders killed 1000000000 of thier own people what did we get? communism is good. socialism is good.
jews did not kill any one who did not attack them first. give me a break! if you shoot at me long enogh I WILL SHOOT BACK.
TomLawler on February 13, 2009 at 2:01 PM
I can’t imagine it since it would never happen. Ah, to be Jewish.
Lance Murdock on February 13, 2009 at 2:01 PM
We are the world….
We are the children….
I imagine you are trying to point out how the ‘whole’ of a group is not ‘bad’.
I have never said this, either.
Bad is in humanity everywhere, and some of it is very concentrated in certain areas.
For example, when I lived in Sacramento as a child I never noticed any differences between my black friends, Vietnamese friends, Chinese friends, or Mexican friends.
When I moved as a child to S. IN I immediately noticed how a huge proportion of the white population hated the blacks.
A huge majority of the blacks there hated whites & I was caught in a weird crossfire.
In the early ’80s there the KKK was riding through the little town of Whiteland IN in the back of their pick-ups in their clan garb.
I found it absolutely frightening.
Kids dressed up at school on Halloween in black-face. And this was widely accepted by the majority of the people.
In Columbus OH when I was in HS in ‘86-87 blacks did not mix with whites AT ALL in my school.
This was perpetrated by the blacks who were being bussed from the inner city to the ‘white’ district.
In Tyler TX when I was HS before that, my school was a large % black/hispanic with a minority being white.
Blacks & whites mixed freely here, but there was tension.
As a product of so many places growing up (there’s more) I am fascinated by these regional differences in the races & ethnic groups.
I feel removed from all of it bcs I hold none of these attitudes.
In the end, stereotypes are around bcs they are based on facts.
It goes without having to say the obvious-not all in these groups fit the stereotypes.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM
BTW-I do also understand the differences in how younger kids deal with these attitudes as compared to older kids & adults.
But as an adult traveling back to these places, I find the observations & my ‘perception’ of them still holds true.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Uncle:
Iran and its allies won’t exist within five years but Israel will still be with us. (see post above for reason why)
jerryofva on February 13, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Read The Brothers Ashkenazi, by I.J. Singer, brother of I.B. Singer. It’s about being caught between right and left, between assimilating vs. staying traditional, about being secular vs. being religious, all set in the milieu of rapidly urbanizing early 20th century Poland. He concludes there is no answer. Neither produces a satisfactory result. Ah, to be Jewish.
JiangxiDad on February 13, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Not to minorities, but certainly Christians do get blamed in the US.
Which isn’t to say it’s worse or anything like what happens to Jewish people. I certainly don’t envy what many of them must put up with.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 2:08 PM
This can’t be your first time on the Internet.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 2:09 PM
]
There you go again…
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Or thin skin. I’m not sure which.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 2:12 PM
I hope you are right about Israel, but not about Iran. I know both Israelis and Persians, and those I know are decent people.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Where did this come from? It looks like something which, if true, would make a great addition to the Wikipedia entry for “Chimney Sweep”.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Uncle:
Then hope that oil prices stay low and Iran goes backrupt before it get true nuclear capability otherwise it’s over for them.
jerryofva on February 13, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Well you do have point. I do know ultra-libs who are more scared to death of Christians than any Islamic fundamentalist. They actually believe that evangelicals want to bring a Iran style theocracy to this country. Good grief.
Lance Murdock on February 13, 2009 at 2:31 PM
When I read The Handmaid’s Tale, I thought they had the religion all wrong. I’d expect an Islamic theocracy in the US before a Christian one. A good book, but one that requires a suspension of belief.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Uh huh. Liberal 24yo history teacher I taught with said his biggest fear was Christian Fundamentalists.
I was floored.
But then again, he considered himself a ‘world’ citizen, too.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 2:34 PM
Yes, but let’s keep in mind that Jews unlike Christians and Muslims are into quality control. You don’t simply become a Jew. You have to convert, and it’s not easy. To become Orthodox requires complying with almost an Inquisition into life. A daughter of a woman I know had her conversion to Orthodoxy delayed over a month, because the Rabbis were concerned that the daughter would eat the non-kosher cheese made by her Reformed Jewish mother. Even the Reformed Jews in my area require a set of classes and three book reports!
thuja on February 13, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Oh so true. Personally the Orthodox version goes WAAAY over board in my book. It’s like they don’t want people to become Jews. On that note, that’s why I was fan of the Shinui party.
Lance Murdock on February 13, 2009 at 2:43 PM
But there is still the genetic ethnic group.
Good point. I have not met any Jewish people, but from the reading I have done, I see they are very concerned about just letting ‘anyone’ in to their faith.
I admire their tenacity to follow things to the letter.
Badger40 on February 13, 2009 at 2:43 PM
That is the most preposterous thing you’ve written in your short time here at HA. General Custer (actually Lt. Colonel Custer) – how did he get into this discussion? Interesting segue.
Hilts on February 13, 2009 at 2:46 PM
Or just be born one. Don’t really see how that amounts to quality control.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 2:47 PM
That’s true. Some of my Jewish cousins wouldn’t have passed the conversion tests I’m sure, but they were born into it, so they’re bona fide Jews. I think all religions exhibit “quality control” in one form or another… it varies from group to group.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Certainly. And people can call themselves whatever they want, but it doesn’t mean they’ve met those “requirements”.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Exactly. It’s actually why personally I’m hesitant to consider myself anything other than a non-believer, even though my beliefs are very similar to a religious group – I do not adhere to all their tenets, and I will not sully their name by using it myself until I can achieve those tenets.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Now you have me curious, but I won’t push. I think it’s appropriate to say things like, “I generally follow the teachings of…” or something similar.
I know I’m not always the best example of a Christian, which is why I generally try to discuss Christianity in more intellectually than as something that is my own personal faith.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 3:03 PM
There you go again, poking holes in my logic! Historically, the Jews could count on their community making sure that Jews knew about Judaism. Since emancipation and the advent of the secular Jew, it’s a fact that there are many Jews who don’t much about Judaism. I believe that Judaism should start putting such people through a conversion process also.
thuja on February 13, 2009 at 3:04 PM
I don’t think you should be reluctant to become a Reformed Jew just because you don’t agree with all the tenets. Reformed Judaism is all about fighting over what the tenets are–if you look at it historically. Reformed Judaism circa 1900 in America was a castrated Jesus-less Christianity not that different from Unitarianism. It’s now returned to being a living, vibrant Judaism. So, don’t worry about all the tenets of a religion. Just find a religion with 80% of whose tenets you can tolerate and a warm community.
thuja on February 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Elders of Zion. It’s a book “written” by Joooooz (actually, not written by a Jew) that’s a manual for world domination, supposedly. It’s often quoted by the ignorant as proof of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy.
Nethicus on February 13, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Oh, no, the Jewish life is not for me. I may have been born into a family of “converted” Jews, but it’s not for me. I’ll never give up my bacon! ; )
Esthier – I generally follow the teachings of Taoism, with some modifications. I’m not much of a pacifist, though, which might be why I’ll never truly be one.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Which as a Christian was frustrating to me in talking to my Jewish friends. Maybe you can tell me. I don’t remember what the holiday is, but a friend was telling me that you invite Elijah (or Elisha, I get the two confused) in during one celebration or ceremony. It’s been years, so I’m fuzzy on details, I think I remember the gist of why you’d invite the prophet in, but he couldn’t explain to me why it’s specifically him and not a different prophet. Do you know?
I agree. I think it would give them more pride in the religion as well. I’m a protestant, but I like what Catholics do with confirmation. I believe that a person can become a Christian with just a prayer, but I think classes and things like that help, at least when becoming a member of a church.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 3:31 PM
I just re-read my post, and realized it’s confusing. My family converted to Catholism around when they immigrated to the States. They were like the conversos of old, where they were both Catholic and Jewish – they didn’t want to give up the old faith, but it was easier to live where they did being Catholic.
Never made much sense to me either.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 3:37 PM
How about giving this whole thread a rest.
Mason on February 13, 2009 at 3:52 PM
At the circumcision ceremony, we put out a chair for Elijah, so that he can witness the circumcision. The basis for this is the Mount Horeb story in 1 Kings 19, but I’m not sure about the logic.
thuja on February 13, 2009 at 3:53 PM
I’m not sure what that has to do with circumcision. Is it about how he tells God that the people have forsaken him and this being a way to show they haven’t?
I’m sure it’s hard to be a pacifist with a husband in the military. And really, knowing what will happen if good people stand by and do nothing, does the same.
Esthier on February 13, 2009 at 4:03 PM
Exactly. Without war, we would have no peace. Overall, though, Taoism has some really great aspects to it.
Anna on February 13, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Isn’t a chair put out for him at a Seder as well?
MarkTheGreat on February 13, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Why don’t you enlighten us all about what antisemitism is. Please try to do without using the word ‘genocide’.
ProfessorMiao on February 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM
A serious question for you, Lourdes. What percentage of the US population is Jewish?
ProfessorMiao on February 13, 2009 at 5:06 PM
Huh?
ProfessorMiao on February 13, 2009 at 5:07 PM
Europeans have become very lazy and unaccountable. It’s a huge shame. It’s not much different here, which is the even bigger shame. There are no more giants to look up to.
Entelechy on February 13, 2009 at 5:11 PM
(1) the state was formed, under authorization of the UN, give those whose identity is Jewish a homeland
(2) the state is heavily armed because it has been under attack since the day it was formed
(3) the lands over which Israel holds sovereignty, with the exception of the Golan Heights, are lands over which it was given sovereignty by the UN.
Funny how the same rules didn’t apply to the Irish, despite widespread support by American Irish for the bloody policies of the IRA. Why do you suppose that’s true?
ProfessorMiao on February 13, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Of course, Europe is evolving more and more into Eurabia. And Muslims are none too fond of Jews themselves. If I were a European Jew, I’d be looking to move to Israel.
Disturb the Universe on February 13, 2009 at 5:18 PM
the JUICE!
pt on February 13, 2009 at 5:31 PM
He got into this by attempting to attack what he thought was a defenseless Indian village which turned out to be not so defenseless — in fact, it was the largest gathering of plains Indians to that time, holding a conference to determine a unified stance toward the Grant Administration’s insistence on their moving onto Reservations. He’s the poster child of the entire “winning of the West” meme.
Custer was a brevet general officer at the time of his death. If you want to find fault with this promotion, fine. If Captain Eisenhower were still alive, I’m not so sure he’d agree with you.
As for “short time”, I was for several years part of Captains’ Quarters, came over here with Ed Morrissey, and have commented consistently ever since. If you really don’t like me, complain to Ed, since I’m his guest.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Ah, but the same rules do. The Irish weren’t as vocal about their support for the IRA (I assume you mean the IRA associated with Northern Ireland, and not the IRA associated with the independence of Ireland itself) — it was more “under the table” money and arms. The other difference is that the United States maintained strict neutrality in the Troubles, while it certainly has not maintained a neutrality with respect to Israel — it was the first country to recognize the new State when it declared independence; interestingly, Iran was the second country, and Ireland was not long after.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 5:42 PM
Not true. An examination of the UN-defined borders of the putative state indicates far different borders than the present state. Besides, even if true, we all know what happens when the UN gets involved in anything — and in the case of Israel, they gave 50% of the land to a group that owned 6% of the land. Of course, in the end, that group wound up owning over 99%, which they’ve kept to the present.
Not true. Armed for years before the day it was formed. Google irgun or haganah. The biggest difference between the two was that the irgun split from the haganah after the haganah decided that attacks against Arab civilians was counterproductive, while the irgun followed a FOTL approach similar to that followed by alQaeda. “hotel david irgun” is instructive, as is “jerusalem railroad irgun”
Provably false by any examination of the maps associated with the potential division of the Mandate of Palestine by the UN. See (1) above.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 5:53 PM
The UK says “yes” to Abu Hamza al-Masri and “no” to Geert Wilders and Jews. The UK has made its choice. So, apparently, has the rest of Europe.
If you have some free time, do some research on the surprisingly large degree of non-German European participation in the SS and the Wehrmacht in WWII. I guess some things don’t change.
Django on February 13, 2009 at 5:57 PM
The source is my memory of an old teaching story of Russian Jewish origin, which I heard many years ago and modified for this thread. It is not historically accurate, even in the original version. However, the story is true.
Loxodonta on February 13, 2009 at 6:42 PM
“Not true… besides even if true…”
Yes, the borders in 1949 were not the ones originally set out by the UN, because 5 Arab countries launched a war against the new state.
In 1949, Israel held about 50 percent of the land that had been partitioned. The population of that land was about 50 percent Jewish in 1946. Israel has since annexed the Golan Heights but not Gaza or the West Bank, so I don’t know where you are getting your numbers from.
ProfessorMiao on February 13, 2009 at 6:48 PM
yeah ‘unc’ is a raving anti-semite. he’d be much happier if the jews were all dead.
I have no doubt he posts in his starched brown shirt, with a picture of his dear ‘leader’ above the computer.
but ‘unc’ and those like him, are in for an ugly surprise…I’ve read the back of the Book, and Israel never falls….
right4life on February 13, 2009 at 7:22 PM
hasn’t that already happened, except the USA, and now that it is the USSA, that will happen very soon…
and the west has already given up the fight against radical islam…Iran gets the bomb..invades israel…along with russia…and get a very ugly surprise!! the Ezekiel option…..
right4life on February 13, 2009 at 7:28 PM
Hmm. When all else fails, go ad hominem.
I have never said or even implied what you are claiming to be my feelings. What I have said is that the Palestinians have a claim to land in Israel.
I disagree with the way Hamas is going about attempting to enforce that claim, but those Palestinians who have attempted to gain restitution through the Israeli court system have been mostly (but not uniformly) rebuffed. As I noted on January 9:
Those acts do not justify violence against civilians. I have a seamless garb in that respect — I believe that both the Palestinians and the Israeli citizenry have individual rights to lives free of terror. In that position, I have supported the Israeli incursion into Gaza to destroy Hamas’ capability of targeting civilians. In that incursion, I believe that the Israelis have waged Just War — they have tried to minimize civilian casualties while rooting out the militias which have targeted their civilians.
I do not personally absolve Israel or its military of the things it has done and continues to do with regard to displaced/displacing Palestinian civilians from land desired by Israeli settlers. Someone quoted the UN as having given the turf to the Israelis; that same UN has repeatedly rebuked Israel for having a law of return which does not include displaced Palestinian civilians.
This is a continuation of an argument which began over on the Captains’ Quarters pages long ago.
right4life, you may think the “back of the Book” allows theft, but I don’t.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Aren’t we lucky that the USA has never had a religious entry test, and has never booted people out over their religion?
Israel is not a miniature version of the United States by any means, and your final attempt at witticism brings home that point in a very big way.
unclesmrgol on February 13, 2009 at 7:59 PM
DUB,
I know what you’re trying to convey but I don’t agree. Ethnically, Sarkozy is Jewish. So is his right-hand man Kouchner. The political representative for my area is Jewish but he doesn’t seem eager to abandon his home country and go live somewhere supposedly safer.
Lots of Jews are patriots of the countries they were born in and live in and might not necessarily want to abandon their countries and high-tail it to Israel or the US anymore than the rest of us infidels who are just as likely to be slaughtered by Muslims.
You could tell European Jews (by email?) that they ought not to trust the peoples of the countries they are living in but as an American that is just your outside perspective.
Melanie Philips who writes for the Daily Mail is British and Jewish. Has anyone emailed her to tell her to abandon her home country (Britain) and high-tail it to Israel? What do you think she’d say to that?
aengus on February 13, 2009 at 8:15 PM
bet your eyes are brown, you’re so full of crap. its the jews land..the arabs STOLE IT FROM THEM…get a clue.
truth hurts. you want the ‘right of return’ for the ‘palestinians’ in other words, you want to see the end of israel and the death of millions of jews. thats what your ‘policies’ entail.
I’ve noticed that Satan’s minions always hate the jews…
learn to love Israel sucka, cause there ain’t nothing you, or the arabs, or your horned god can do about it…
right4life on February 13, 2009 at 8:31 PM
they won’t have a choice…
But the Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from
all the lands whither He had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I
gave unto their fathers. Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish
them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain,
and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. Jeremiah 16:15,16
right4life on February 13, 2009 at 8:34 PM
Ahem.
Attention all European Jews. Please come to America. We need you. The last major influx of you was a wonderful addition to our country.
Let’s see…stereotypes of Jews, hmm: close knit families, religion, work ethic, a focus on education and performance, a sense of pride in achievement and a sense of shame in failure. You aren’t strapping bombs to your chest to kill babies and you aren’t looting stores…and worst of all…you think profits are GOOD!
Oh my, what a horrible people. Tsk tsk.
Ya, c’mon over, we’ll leave Lady Liberty’s light on for you.
Montana on February 13, 2009 at 8:36 PM
right4life,
In which case Jews are no more safer in the good ol’ USA than they are in Europe or anywhere else.
aengus on February 13, 2009 at 8:38 PM
if you haven’t noticed the USA is now the USSA…we are a people’s republiKKK…its going to get ugly here…
and when it gets ugly, the jews always get the blame…
and no they’re not safe anywhere, even in Israel…
right4life on February 13, 2009 at 8:42 PM
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