The real problem in the unemployment figures

posted at 10:06 am on February 8, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

We read plenty about large layoffs by firms in financial trouble in the economic crisis, but CNN’s Chris Isidore says we mostly miss the real problem in labor in this crisis.  Hiring has dropped to decade-long lows, and while that may sound redundant, Isidore says the subtle difference makes a difference in how we need to approach the problem:

But the real problem in the U.S. labor market today isn’t layoffs. It’s a hiring freeze that is gripping most work places – and has not gotten nearly as much attention as the job cuts.

“The hiring rate has caved. That’s why the job market is as bad as it is,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist with Moody’s Economy.com. “Given this low hiring rate, unemployment would still rise even if layoffs were falling.” …

During the last recession in 2001, there was not nearly as sharp a drop in hiring and job openings. In fact, the hiring and job opening rates, which compare new hires and openings to the overall number of workers, are both at their lowest level on record.

And economists say that even if the number of layoffs peaks soon, the pace of hiring and job openings may remain soft for months to come.

Why has this recession generated such bad job opening rates?  Isidore quotes Robert Brusca of FAO Economics as saying that “fear is running the show right now,” and small wonder.  Instead of trying to calm the nation, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi have transformed themselves into Chicken Littles, abandoning FDR’s “All we have to fear is fear itself” in favor of “We’re all going to DIE!”  Why?  Their stimulus package keeps losing support, and only fear can propel it to passage, but that same hysteria has employers locking their doors, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of economic doom.

The proper salve for a lack of job creation would be an infusion of capital into the markets.  The failure of businesses normally creates openings for small start-ups to take their place, or for innovators to find new solutions to new problems and bring them to market.   The Obama administration should encourage capital to come to market by lowering the risk cost through cuts in the capital-gains tax rates, or eliminating them entirely, for the next four years.

That will create jobs and expand opportunity, and would balance the layoffs of firms that had shaky business models even before the latest financial crisis.  In fact, that’s why the 2000-1 recession managed to absorb the dot-com bubble collapse as well as the 9/11 attack collapse so well.  The Bush administration lowered taxes and kept capital working to create jobs.  Instead, the Obama administration wants to re-create the WPA, digging ditches just to refill them later, and paying for it by eventually seizing the capital that could have created real, long-term employment.

Obama could learn something from George Bush.  I doubt he’ll stop screeching hysterically long enough to figure it out.


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Just wait until he gets going on global warming. Then it will be the whole world and all of mankind that he’ll be saving.

darwin-t on February 8, 2009 at 6:08 PM

dump that stupid “mark to market” rule…

darwin-t on February 8, 2009 at 5:57 PM

I read yesterday that the rule was dropped, and, thus, the market didn’t tank as it would have based on the directions of the vote on the Porkulous bill.

onlineanalyst on February 8, 2009 at 6:54 PM

What then caused the Depression? Part of the trouble was indeed the crash. There were monetary and credit challenges at the young Federal Reserve, and certainly at the banks. Deflation, not inflation, was a big problem, both early on and also later, in the mid-1930s. The loss of international trade played an enormous role.

But the deepest problem was the intervention, the lack of faith in the marketplace. Government management of the late 1920s and 1930s hurt the economy. [] ordered wages up when they wanted to go down. He allowed a disastrous tariff [] to become law when he should have had the sense to block it. He raised taxes when neither citizens individually nor the economy as a whole could afford the change. After 1932, New Zealand, Japan, Greece, Romania, Chile, Denmark, Finland and Sweden began seeing industrial production levels rise again–but not the United States.

…the National Recovery Administration [NRA] did damage. The NRA rules were so stringent they perversely hurt businesses. They frightened away capital, and they discouraged employers from hiring workers. Laws like that which created the NRA–and Roosevelt signed a number of them–were so broad that no one knew how they would be interpreted. The resulting hesitation in itself arrested growth.

Where the private sector could help to bring the economy back…Roosevelt and his New Dealers often suppressed it.

Businesses decided to wait Roosevelt out, hold on to their cash, and invest in future years. Yet Roosevelt retaliated by introducing a tax–the undistributed profits tax–to press the money out of them.

Such forays prevented recovery and took the country into the depression within the Depression of 1937 and 1938, … and the persistent shortage of jobs in the latter part of the 1930s.

Intro, pages 7-9
The Forgotten Man
By Amity Shlaes
HarperCollins Publishers, 2007
(highlights added)

NOT ANOTHER GREAT DEPRESSION VIA MORE SOCIALISM, OBAMA.

Obama presumes to be the reincarnation of FDR. Obama persistently threatens punitive retribution should we be rational and pursue a factual, scientific fiscal course to recover responsible prosperity.

maverick muse on February 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM

Sounds like the suspension of the rule is just a rumor, but enough to bump up the stock market

http://uk.reuters.com/article/mideast/idUKTRE51503A20090206

The dems are too dim to do something that might actually help.

darwin-t on February 8, 2009 at 8:00 PM

But the real problem in the U.S. labor market today isn’t layoffs. It’s a hiring freeze that is gripping most work places – and has not gotten nearly as much attention as the job cuts.

One of the top answers – H1/L1 abuse during that started when the dotcom era cleared out.

They have no problem with the citizens – they just want an end run around paying what they’re worth. Deny them the end run despite their screeching.

Businesses decided to wait Roosevelt out, hold on to their cash, and invest in future years. Yet Roosevelt retaliated by introducing a tax–the undistributed profits tax–to press the money out of them.

When businesses try to be masters of the universe, they pay dearly. Now they want to scare us into sparing them while not sparing Main Street. Tell them to pound sand.

sethstorm on February 8, 2009 at 9:45 PM

Companies aren’t hiring because of Barack Hussein Obama.

-Dave

Dave R. on February 8, 2009 at 10:18 PM

I will give credit to THE ONE for mentioning digitizing medical records.
….
angryed on February 8, 2009 at 2:02 PM

I’d give him a lot more credit if the Bush administration hadn’t been saying the exact same thing for the last 8 years.

There actually is an electronic medical record in use between the military and veterans administration hospitals, based on a system call VISTAA (with 2 a’s) But for some reason, multiple companies are all trying to invent their own version of EMR systems.

The problem really will not be getting hospitals to move to EMR’s. That’s already happening. The problem will be getting the different EMR systems to talk to one another as needed.

ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on February 8, 2009 at 10:40 PM

Businesses decided to wait Roosevelt out, hold on to their cash, and invest in future years. Yet Roosevelt retaliated by introducing a tax–the undistributed profits tax–to press the money out of them.

When businesses try to be masters of the universe, they pay dearly. Now they want to scare us into sparing them while not sparing Main Street. Tell them to pound sand.

sethstorm on February 8, 2009 at 9:45 PM

So businesses should be punished for trying to manage their own business?

Seems every post you make lately reveals how much of a fascist you are.

ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on February 8, 2009 at 10:43 PM

Forget about the stimulus and just clear the way for offshore and onshore oil drilling projects.

Within months the economy would be truckin right along again.

Jason Coleman on February 8, 2009 at 10:53 PM

Forgot to add refineries to that short list.

Jason Coleman on February 8, 2009 at 10:53 PM

So businesses should be punished for trying to manage their own business use evasive tactics?

Seems every post you make lately reveals how much of a fascist an American you are.

ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on February 8, 2009 at 10:43 PM

Yes, they should be punished for evasive tactics.

I’m only calling a spade a spade at this point. It’s bad enough that such organizations as IBM think that they can get away with admitting a lie. That lie being the “talent shortages” here in the US that are put forth to justify higher H1/L1/* numbers. Combine that with the impossible-to-meet job descriptions and you have enough material to justify the removal of that program and a more stringent successor follow when the economy recovers.

Pardon if finding ways to put perfectly talented citizens back into employment is fascist to you.

sethstorm on February 8, 2009 at 11:18 PM

sethstorm on February 8, 2009 at 11:18 PM

Seth: I fail to understand your logic here. So, your point is companies like IBM should not be using H1B visas at all to employ foreign immigrants. If that were to happen, can you tell me what prevents IBM from directly outsourcing those very jobs? At least the H1B’s live in the US and are forced to pay federal taxes, unlike their outsourced brethren. I have been in the tech arena for quite a while, and I have seen hiring managers directly jump to off-site job postings when they could not hire an H1-B. Not saying this is good for American citizens, but such is the brutal reality of a globalized world.

Now, if you can give me a good solution to how we can enact protectionism and still survive, I am all ears. “angryed”, “Dr. Dog”, “bishop” and I have been going through this same topic on this very thread today, you can find a lot of material in those comments.

peter_griffin on February 8, 2009 at 11:58 PM

This is a provocatively troubling piece that discusses Obama’s Economic Advisory Board, whose members maintain their postions in the private sector and who do not answer to Congressional approval or oversight…in spite of the fact that we have several agencies to oversee economic decsions. The head of GE is one such person whose bailiwick is the media. Is this how the president controls the message?
http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2009/02/some-troubling-names-on-president.html

onlineanalyst on February 9, 2009 at 12:27 AM

Instead of trying to calm the nation, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi have transformed themselves into Chicken Littles, abandoning FDR’s “All we have to fear is fear itself” in favor of “We’re all going to DIE!” Why?

Chaos: the goal is power and the means is chaos. Nothing has changed since the 1920s. One historian calls it “far and away the most successful psychological warfare operation ever launched against the West.” We’re missing the ball here folks. Look past the rhetoric for one minute. We can all see the obvious economic flaws of this “stimulus” bill. We see the obvious effect Obama’s rhetoric is having. We see the results of past programs like this: yes, the economics, but think past that. Think about the power and control aspect of this. How many of the programs that we have today in our government have come from times like these? Social security? Welfare? Look at how big our government has gotten through the EPA, HUD Dep., Labor Dep., Health and Human Services, the FDA, CPS, Dep. of Education…
It’s interesting now, mainly from an art of war perspective, how economic Marxism and cultural Marxism have now come together. (Economic: poor vs. rich; Cultural: changing the fabric of the nation via state-run education and the cinema.) If you don’t believe my words, that’s fine. I leave you with the words of those whose ideas are coming to fruition.
“By psychopolitics our chief goals are effectively carried forward. To produce a maximum of chaos in the culture of the enemy is our first most important step. Our fruits are grown in chaos, distrust, economic depression and scientific turmoil. … With it you can erase our enemies as insects… Use the courts, use the judges, use the Constitution of the country, use its medical societies and its laws to further our ends. … And bring to Earth, through Communism, the greatest peace Man has ever known.” ~ Lavrenti Beria, Lenin University, in a 1933 address to a group of American/Marxist Psychology Students
“The family in crisis produces the attitudes which predispose men for blind submission.” ~ Max Horkheimer, former President of the Frankfurt School (Marxist think-tank)
“Literacy is the greatest obstacle to socialism.” ~ John Dewey (“Father of Progessive Education”; taught by G. Stanley Hall, who drew greatly from Ernst Haekal’s erroneous ideas dealing with embryo development)
“To prepare society for psychological control, the very soul of the individual must be destroyed in its youth by disturbing it with evil via forced schooling and media.” ~ György Lukács (learned from Dewey)
“I saw the revolutionary destruction of society as the one and only solution to the cultural difficulties [Christianity].” ~ György Lukács
“A quiet revolution can be dispersed throughout a culture over a period of time to destroy it from within. Mass psychology and media can break the traditions, beliefs and morals and the will of a nation so there is no possibility of resistance.” ~ Antonio Gramsci
“The civilized world has been thoroughly saturated with Christianity for 2,000 years and a culture based on this religion could only be captured from within. By winning cultural hegemony, men could be made to love their servitude.” ~Antonio Gramsci
“Until man is convinced that the world has been abandoned by God, there will be no revolution.” ~ György Lukács
“Of all the arts, the motion picture is the most important.” ~Vladimir Lenin
“This weapon [cinema], which cries out to be used, is the best instrument for political propaganda, which cuts into the memory and may be made a possible source of revenue.” ~ Leon Trotsky
“We are obliged… to make amusement a weapon of collective education. The cinema competes with the church. This rivalry may become fatal for the church. The cinema liberates you from the need of crossing the church door. Here is an instrument we must secure at all costs.” ~ Severneya Pravda
Sun Tzu had it right: “To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence.”

Send_Me on February 9, 2009 at 12:55 AM

peter_griffin on February 8, 2009 at 11:58 PM

The point I was trying to make is that one of their recent programs (Project Match) shoots down the excuse called “The US is short of talent so we should raise the H1-b limit”. I just want to call them on it.

My logic is that they are using a broken immigration procedure, using a familiar excuse to justify that immigration procedure and then shooting the excuse down in the same breath. I would think that they would not be alone in using it – they would be alone in breaking it in that manner.

One of my ideas is to just hand business a very low tax percentage(my choice lowering it to 1/10th percent), scrapping the “skilled worker” provisions until there is some growth (at least an entire fiscal year of growth) and reinstating(when it meets those previous conditions) a reformed version of those programs that discourages current and future abuse.

You get your deep tax cut and eventual access to a reformed immigrant worker program. I get an assurance that the recovery will mean US jobs (versus a “jobless” recovery).

sethstorm on February 9, 2009 at 1:16 AM

You get your deep tax cut and eventual access to a reformed immigrant worker program. I get an assurance that the recovery will mean US jobs (versus a “jobless” recovery).

sethstorm on February 9, 2009 at 1:16 AM

I would love to adopt your idea if it worked in practice, but unfortunately there are some issues. In some industries (like the tech industry where IBM operates), the dearth of talent in American workers is enormous. For example, I did my graduate studies from a top 10 engineering school in the US, and most of my batchmates were international students. Now you can argue that is partly/wholly due to the income decimation for those jobs, but fact of the matter is that these companies have a very small pool of Americans to choose from when they look for an MS or a PhD in Electrical Engineering or Computer Science. So, merely giving these tech companies tax credits is not sufficient, they really need a talent pool that is for all practical purposes an international pool. Also, if I may so add, many of these tech companies (against whom a lot of H1B/L1 wrath is hurled) exist in a very brutal competitive environment, where they make or break without accepting any kind of government bailouts. In fact, IBM is one of the very few companies to eke out a decent profit (past expectations) even in this dismal quarter.

peter_griffin on February 9, 2009 at 1:38 AM

Companies aren’t hiring because of Barack Hussein Obama.

-Dave

Dave R. on February 8, 2009 at 10:18 PM

Moronic hatemongering comments like the one above are not helpful.

LODGE4 on February 9, 2009 at 7:36 AM

Re: H1B

The H1B issue has taken on mythical proportions on both sides of the debate. Fact is there 65K H1Bs granted every year. And this includes non-IT jobs as well. A friend of mine was on an HIB as an accountant. In a situation where 600K jobs are being lost every month, blaming a program that allows 65K visas PER YEAR is a little silly.

On the other side, lots of managers have this notion that all their problems can be solved by bringing in cheap Indian IT resources. What they quickly find out is they aren’t all that cheap. If you hire an Indian on an HIB, you still have to pay them the same benefits as anyone else, you still pay FICA taxes, you still pay workers comp, you still pay health insurance, vacation, etc. The overall costs are minimal.

And if you do get someone who is really cheap one of two things happens. The second he is in the US, he is looking for a better job with another company willing to transfer over the visa. Or there is a reason he is so cheap, ie he is completely incompetent.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 8:01 AM

meant to say the The overall cost savings are minimal.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 8:02 AM

The Obama administration should encourage capital to come to market by lowering the risk cost through cuts in the capital-gains tax rates, or eliminating them entirely, for the next four years

WOW ED!!!! Looks like someone has been listening to Rush, Mark Levin, Hannity and ME!!!! It’s REAGAN, it’s not rocket science. Cut taxes AND spending and we’ll be just fine in about a year. Stop giving home loans to people that can not afford them. Cut welfare. Destroy the ACLU and make tort reforms a high priority. Lower tax rates on business to 10% for the next 4 years and ZERO cap gains.

It’s nice to see one of the bloggers here understands that REAGAN was right, so is RUSH… Conservatisam 101~!

Mark Garnett on February 9, 2009 at 8:22 AM

Send_Me on February 9, 2009 at 12:55 AM

Excellent post!

Keemo on February 9, 2009 at 8:28 AM

The Obama administration should encourage capital to come to market by lowering the risk cost through cuts in the capital-gains tax rates, or eliminating them entirely, for the next four years

What ridiculous, economically irresponsible swill.

1. The Reagan/Rush/Levin/Ed Morissey argument in favor of capital gains tax cuts does not assume the current situation: Traditionally a cut in capital gains inspires investment in new business ventures that will employ people on the hope that business venture will yield profits over the long term. And, in normal times, that “hope” is more than just a political slogan it’s based on a cogent analysis of the marketplace and an assessment of potential business venture to fill a niche/hole in that marketplace. (free market conservatives, stop me here if I’m not getting it).
But investment for new business or even for existing businesses isn’t just based on individuals with capital buying stock, there’s a huge component of business investment that’s based on credit financing. Indeed, as a number of economists have pointed out all the models which predict the recession recovering by 2009-2010 sans a stimulus bill assume a post-1945 world with functioning credit markets/financing.
Let’s not forget that large segments of the investment class, major wall street investment banks being only the biggest examples, are dealing with serious debt issues right now (like most Americans. Investors have a liquidity problem so what will a capital gains tax cut likely end up doing? The majority of those have investments which haven’t yet crashed will start to liquify, liquify, liquify and put their money into a savings account. Now some of those individuals who liquify may go on a spending spree, which will give the economy a short jolt, but it’s unlikely they will reinvest in new business ventures for the simple fact that they will be the sole owners of stock, no investment banks can pick up the investment slack.

And this is where we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. These investment banks are completely insolvent. If If you are in debt to the tune of 100,000 dollars and I loan you 50,000 are you going to pay off your debt or lend someone else 25,000 dollars? I think the choice is obvious. Has our investment economy ever run without major investment banks? I don’t think we can say that it has and so things like capital gains tax cuts or other tax cuts that are meant to spur investment in new industries probably won’t work. Until these investment banks open the books, and really demonstrate their insolvency we’re screwed.

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 9:28 AM

And if you do get someone who is really cheap one of two things happens. The second he is in the US, he is looking for a better job with another company willing to transfer over the visa. Or there is a reason he is so cheap, ie he is completely incompetent.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 8:01 AM

It also can give an employer a look at someone otherwise only available if the job is shipped overseas. In some cases with technology it isn’t about finding someone cheaper but getting someone interested in technology who isn’t looking to jump quickly into a non-technical role.

dedalus on February 9, 2009 at 9:38 AM

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 9:28 AM

Very rational arguments Medic, odd coming from you…

You make valid points, I would counter with a question. Will 344 million for std treatment / education create jobs? Long term? Will sod for the mall in DC? Long term? Please name for me how providing more nad more wlfare to folks already not paying into the system help the system? Money for ACORN helping? Money for condoms? The huge waste in this bill is staggering even for a few of my radical Liberal friends. Let’s agree to cut ALL the pork, the Gangster Museum, the ACORN money from your radical friends, then talk to me about what this bill will do to bring jobs back, open businesses.

Till then, I will stick to what has proven, time and time again, to work. Tax Cuts, SPending Cuts, No Pork, Limited Gov., Cut Welfare…

Mark Garnett on February 9, 2009 at 9:49 AM

Will 344 million for std treatment / education create jobs? Long term? Will sod for the mall in DC? Long term?

Probably not, but I think you’re reverting to talking points about things that are really a drop in the bucket compared to the enormity of the problems with investment banks, home foreclosures and the coming nightmare of commercial real estate. I agree alot of those programs should go into general appropriations. But I’m kind of furious that conservatives feel like THESE issues are the ones that deserve a lot of time in the national political discourse rather than “What the f*ck are we going to do about this unprecedented and major paradigm shift in the way our economy functions.” Whatever alot of these firms were on wall street they are no longer “investment banks” in the traditional sense. But what are the complains from the right “STD prevention funds are ruining the economy.” I can’t take it seriously.

Till then, I will stick to what has proven, time and time again, to work. Tax Cuts, SPending Cuts, No Pork, Limited Gov., Cut Welfare…

I won’t even get into a historical argument with you, we’ll never agree. What I’d like from you, or Ed, or Rush or a GOP senator is an argument for how capital gains tax cuts stimulate the economy in a world without solvent investment banks.

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 9:55 AM

Probably not, but I think you’re reverting to talking points about things that are really a drop in the bucket compared to the enormity of the problems with investment banks, home foreclosures and the coming nightmare of commercial real estate. I agree alot of those programs should go into general appropriations.

And exactly how do you solve the “problems”? Your answer to everything is get the govt to pay for it. Pay people’s mortgages who should never have even dreamed of buying a house. Have the govt buy up all the banks and then dictate how they are run.

No matter what the problem, your solution is get the government to spend money on it.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Your answer to everything is get the govt to pay for it.

I’m open to alternative suggestions. Please lay one out for me that doesn’t involve nationalizing the housing industry in the short term?

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 11:14 AM

I’m open to alternative suggestions. Please lay one out for me that doesn’t involve nationalizing the housing industry in the short term?

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Hmmm how about doing nothing and allowing the market to self correct. That means people who bought too much house and can’t afford the mortgage become renters. And responsible renters who have been saving up for years become home owners by buying up houses at rock bottom prices.

Those who make good choices get rewarded and those who make bad choices get punished. It’s a shocking concept I realize for Democrats to understand.

And isn’t “lack of affordable housing” always one of the issues liberals cry about. Well here you go. House prices are falling off a cliff. This means there is affordable housing galore. So why in the world do you now want to once again artificially prop up housing prices with a never ending round of bailouts for idiots distressed home owners?

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 11:20 AM

stimulate the economy in a world without solvent investment banks.

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 9:55 AM

Where in this so-called stimulus package are the investment banks going to benefit enough to actually allow the economy to ‘create new jobs’, curtail lay-offs and jobs hiring freezes?

If the economic recovery is dependent upon sound investment banks, then lets get rid of the all the ‘Pork’ and try to come up with a solution for the economy instead of a solution for a power grab by the politically powerful and progressive ideologues.

belad on February 9, 2009 at 11:37 AM

I think they have seized on the argument to destroy the gop in debate:

Summers To GOP: Don’t Lecture Me On History After Last 8 Years.

Ouch.

getalife on February 9, 2009 at 11:44 AM

Obama presumes to be the reincarnation of FDR. Obama persistently threatens punitive retribution should we be rational and pursue a factual, scientific fiscal course to recover responsible prosperity.

So I guess WWIV is about ready to get under way?
We are already in WWIII but Obama is to stupid to realize that.
He is on the deck of the carrier surrendering to the Muslim world.
Once the Soviet Union forms back up that will be real change
you can believe in. This time, China & the USSR will hand the
Muslim world their heads.

izoneguy on February 9, 2009 at 11:45 AM

Hmmm how about doing nothing and allowing the market to self correct. That means people who bought too much house and can’t afford the mortgage become renters. And responsible renters who have been saving up for years become home owners by buying up houses at rock bottom prices.

You do recognize that housing price is not an individual market right? If you’re the only responsible homeowner on your block and everyone goes into foreclosure as part of a market correction and opportunistic buyers want those properties for dirt cheap, what exactly are you supposed to do? Your housing price will plummet, you’ll owe more than the house is worth and everyone else is in chapter 11? That’s actually not a solution and I think you know that.

In fact those who made good buying choices are punished, those who may not have been able to afford a home before are the ones who are rewarded.

belad on February 9, 2009 at 11:37 AM

I’m not sure. I sure would’ve loved to see the GOP use that to torpedo the bill instead of stupid crap like STD prevention pork. Then we’d be having a national debate about the actual issues. Instead of things that make good headlines. STD! really jumps off teh page/screen. A sober accounting of the foreclosure crisis doesn’t. But thankfully our media is run by corporate hacks who want to move bones, not inform the public and our political cronies are more than willing to join in by reducing our political debate to stupid crap like the stupid damn pork in the stupid stimulus bill.

DeathToMediaHacks on February 9, 2009 at 11:46 AM

It’s nice to see one of the bloggers here understands that REAGAN was right, so is RUSH… Conservatisam 101~!

No liberal or democrat will ever admit that Reagan was right. We know it, you know it, most of America knows it but Obama is living as if Reagan never existed.

izoneguy on February 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 8:01 AM

I agree, Ed. However that’s only one side of the coin as far as H1B’s are concerned. Here are 2 camps:

(1) body-shoppers who bring in H1-B’s with direct employment offers from their home countries – whose description fits exactly what you gave. I don’t have any disagreements with you on that.

(2) folks who came from abroad to attend graduate school, went to some of the best engineering schools in US, did their Masters or a PhD, and are *then* looking for a job. They also get hired as H1B’s, but are meritoriously of a very different level from the first camp. It is for those people that your argument does not apply. Hiring managers pay them about the same as an American, because again, they have earned that pay by going to top schools purely on the basis of their merit. Also, losing them means a lot to the technology projects which they lead or work on.

Hope this clears some confusion surrounding this oft-vilified issue.

peter_griffin on February 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM

You do recognize that housing price is not an individual market right? If you’re the only responsible homeowner on your block and everyone goes into foreclosure as part of a market correction and opportunistic buyers want those properties for dirt cheap, what exactly are you supposed to do? Your housing price will plummet, you’ll owe more than the house is worth and everyone else is in chapter 11? That’s actually not a solution and I think you know that.

Oh I see. So now the government is in the business of guaranteeing that everyone’s home appreciates in value. What’s next? Everyone’s 401k is guarnateed? How about everyone who goes to Las Vegas is guaranteed not to lose any money?

You do realize that housing is like any other market right? That is, there are winners and there are losers. If you can’t stomach the idea of losing money in housing, stick to renting.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Media Hucketer,

Again every solution you have involves govt ownership. The govt owns housing, banking, factories, schools. And as an added bonus the govt also controls what people on the radio can say, when they can say it and for how long they can say it.

That kind of system worked amazingly well for 70 years in the USSR.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM

Perhaps your leader rush should do some counter townhall meetings.

getalife on February 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM

Instead, the Obama administration wants to re-create the WPA, digging ditches just to refill them later,

Interesting case in point about this type of Govt ineptitude:
A logger whose job was eliminated in the 80′s in WA bcs of the spotted owl controversy gained govt employment to help expand spotted owl habitat in the forests.
The Forest Service hired loggers to climb trees & ‘top’ them (blow off their tops literally) with explosives so this would create a spotted owl future nesting site.
About 5 years later the spotted owls still had not nested in these sites. So the same loggers were hired back by the Forest Service to come in & log the trees they killed. Bcs when you top a tree, many tree species cannot survive.
This is govt waste at its finest & what we may expect with the new “work programs”.

Badger40 on February 9, 2009 at 1:18 PM

Perhaps your leader rush should do some counter townhall meetings.

getalife on February 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM

He does…. Three hours a day, five a week… Thanks!

And opposed to your Messiah, your Hero, your Savior…

HE’S RIGHT AND HE LOVES AMERICA AND FREEDOM AND OUR MILITARY! Unlike your radical far left socialist…

Mark Garnett on February 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM

Mark Garnett on February 9, 2009 at 1:47 PM

He would get televised and reach more Americans than the dittoheads.

But then he would have to answer questions from non dittoheads.

getalife on February 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM

You do realize that housing is like any other market right? That is, there are winners and there are losers. If you can’t stomach the idea of losing money in housing, stick to renting.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM

Well said ed. Here is what I just posted over at DKos where they were taking a poll about how our spending habits have changed. I am among the 1-2% of their poll who is spending more right now.

My wife and I have never made $100,000 in combined income ever. We both work for others. I have been up and down the wage scale a number of times, but have never been wealthy.

We live in the same three bedroom house we bought 15 years ago. I save as much as I can while my wife redecorates in oblivion.

In April, I saw the writing on the wall and liquidated or hedged all my investments; taxable, non-taxable, all of it to cash. Very patriotic of me, don’t you know, as I will have a large capital gains libility this year.

Dug a well on our property. Installed a propane generator w/months of fuel supply. Planted a small garden. We bought almost no vegetables in 2008. Bought some fruits. Shot deer and ducks on a friends property this winter, did some fishing, have about three to six months worth of meat in the freezer. I make my own beer. Load my own ammunition.

Bought two forclosed properties in my neighborhood in Oct. Both are now rented to folks who could no longer afford their $2000-2500/mo mortgages.

If inflation stays about the same, I calculate that I have two years worth of savings to live on, even if I lose my job. Two years to destitution, barring hyperinflation.

Have you done all you can to ensure the safety of your family?

The great thing about the US is that we still have some ability to make choices about how we live our lives. It is not the role of the government to tell us how to live our lives, nor is it the government’s role to babysit the populace while vote pandering.

All change creates winners and losers, good choices and bad. Educate oneself and try to make more good choices and fewer poor ones. Could you have lived in a smaller house the last ten years? Have you made any plans at all to ensure availability of food and water in case of a crisis? Have you ever paid out of your own pocket (I have) for professional advancement? Do you pay any attention at all to your 401K plan and how it is invested? Do you read DKos, Drudge, and Reason to try to get to the truth when faced with opposing viewpoints?

Pull yourselves up folks, work hard, get smart, eat, live, and love.

“I never learned anything from somebody who agreed with me”

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 2:55 PM

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 2:55 PM

Cool. I did more or less the same as you. Sold my house in early ’07 and have been renting since. Also took 90% of my stock positions out in summer ’07 and until the recent war on savers started by Bernanke/Paulson had been earning a respectable 3.5% to 5% in CDs, money markets and high yield savings accounts. I have 10 years at least worth of savings and I don’t owe a dime to anyone. And man that is a good feeling.

I laugh every time I hear some asshole say how nobody saw this coming. I saw it, you saw, millions of others saw it. Yet the best and supposedly brightest financial minds out there (Bernanke, Paulson, Greenspan, Geithner) all missed it.

Screw them all.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 3:07 PM

I have 10 years at least worth of savings and I don’t owe a dime to anyone. And man that is a good feeling.

I laugh every time I hear some asshole say how nobody saw this coming. I saw it, you saw, millions of others saw it. Yet the best and supposedly brightest financial minds out there (Bernanke, Paulson, Greenspan, Geithner) all missed it.

Screw them all.

angryed on February 9, 2009 at 3:07 PM

Thanks ed. You give me some hope that there are still a few of us rational people in the country. I do find it difficult sometimes to find good information on which to base my decisions, though, with the amount of disiniformation masquerading as news.

My only debt is my primary mortgage (7 years left at 5 3/8%), and the two rental house mortgages. I am hoping for a housing price recovery and to sell them in the next year or two. I figure if I have problems with the rentals, the bank can refinance ‘em or take ‘em back. I think I have the resources to move forward with or without a stellar credit rating.

Best wishes to you and your family and friends.

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM

Just saw this quote from another site. Milton Friedman in 1979:

Donahue: “When you see around the globe the mal-distribution of wealth, the desperate plight of millions of people in undeveloped countries … when you see the greed and the concentration of power, do you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed is a good idea?”

Friedman: “The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the auto industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. The record of history is absolutely crystal clear: that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.”

So statism is good how?

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 4:55 PM


The past 10-15 years this economy has run simply on building houses, selling houses and buying Chinese junk to fill up those houses. As a country we have made nothing. We’ve built nothing. We’ve created nothing. All we’ve done is figure out ways to more creatively borrow more to spend more which in turn leads to borrowing more to keep up the payments on what we’ve bought.

The whole system needs to collapse on itself. The US is like an alcoholic. It needs to hit rock bottom before it can recover. It needs to wake up one day in a ditch, broke, covered in dog piss and finally decide that it needs to change its ways before it dies.

All the stimulus, bailouts and other schemes the govt keeps coming up with is the equivalent of giving the country cheap wine every day and then wondering why the hell the country is drunk.

And this is a bipartisan cluster. Bush started down this road and Obama will finish the job.

angryed on February 8, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Great point.

tartan on February 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM

+100 angryed and tartan

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 8:21 PM


The problem is NOT the amount of money in the system, its that none of that money is being used to CREATE anything…

And JOBS will not come back until the Governemnt gets out of the Way of Business to MAKE things in America again.

Romeo13 on February 8, 2009 at 12:19 PM

+1

tartan on February 9, 2009 at 8:33 PM

“One of the methods used by statists to destroy capitalism consists in establishing controls that tie a given industry hand and foot, making it unable to solve its problems, then declaring that freedom has failed and stronger controls are necessary.”

—Ayn Rand, 1975

These words were written more than 30 years ago, but they apply exactly to today’s financial crisis. Today’s problems are the result of a government-controlled financial and housing system that rewarded irrational behavior and punished responsible behavior. Yet they are being blamed on “the free market”—with more controls offered as the solution.

Why? For the same reason that the controls were passed in the first place. The dominant moral and political ideas in our culture lead Americans to believe that a free market, with its unfettered pursuit of self-interest, is immoral and destructive—whereas a government that controls and manipulates the economy in some indefinable “public interest” is seen as a source of economic security and prosperity.

izoneguy on February 8, 2009 at 2:37 PM

+1

tartan on February 9, 2009 at 8:47 PM

Just saw this quote from another site. Milton Friedman in 1979:

Donahue: “When you see around the globe the mal-distribution of wealth, the desperate plight of millions of people in undeveloped countries … when you see the greed and the concentration of power, do you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed is a good idea?”

Friedman: “The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the auto industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. The record of history is absolutely crystal clear: that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.”

So statism is good how?

riverrat10k on February 9, 2009 at 4:55 PM

another great point

tartan on February 9, 2009 at 9:02 PM

And JOBS will not come back until the Governemnt gets out of the Way of Business to MAKE things in America again.

Romeo13 on February 8, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Of course, you could make it possible so that the only available pool is of US Citizens.

How about this – Business needs to get out of the way of government.

sethstorm on February 10, 2009 at 10:18 AM

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