President Obama, infanticide happens; Update: Physician license suspended
posted at 8:32 am on February 6, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
President Barack Obama in 2003 insisted that abortion clinics don’t commit infanticide because … well, because they’re doctors:
[T]he only plausible rationale, to my mind, for this legislation would be if you had a suspicion that a doctor, the attending physician, who has made the assessment that this is a nonviable fetus and that, let’s say for the purposes of the mother’s health, is being — that — that labor is being induced, that that physician (a) is going to make the wrong assessment and (b) if the physician discovered, after the labor had been induced, that, in fact, he made an error, and in fact this was not a nonviable fetus but, in fact, a live child, that the physician, of his own accord or her own accord, would not try to exercise the sort of medical procedures and practices that would be involved in saving that child.
Now, if — if you think that there are possibilities that doctors would not do that, then maybe this bill makes sense, but I — I suspect and my impression is, is that the Medical Society suspects that doctors feel that they would already be under that obligation[.]
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.
Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.
Only Renelique didn’t arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.
What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic’s owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant’s umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.
Obama tried denying that this practice occurs in order to suck up to the abortion industry and help them avoid responsibility for killing live infants. Jill Stanek had already testified that she personally had witnessed this practice as a nurse at Christ Hospital in Chicago, which was affiliated with Obama’s own church, Trinity United Church of Christ. The Illinois legislature heard further testimony that as many as 40% of late-term abortions resulted in a live birth, whom staff would abandon until death rather than provide the necessary medical care to save the infants’ lives.
But Obama, in thrall of Planned Parenthood and Big Abortion, continued to deny it.
The story actually gets a little worse:
The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.
Williams’ lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby’s umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
Apparently this was preferable to “punishing” Williams with a child. At least that’s what Barack Obama thought in 2001-3, when he had an opportunity to defend innocent life and stop this practice.
Update: Jill Stanek notes that the physician’s license to practice has been suspended as a result of the investigation:
The Florida Board of Medicine has revoked the license of a doctor following a badly botched abortion the doctor never showed up to. …
The Board of Medicine revoked [his] license to practice medicine, at a hearing in Tampa. Neither Renelique nor his attorney would answer questions from ABC Action News.com.
Jill also catches an interesting quote from another link, which appears to be down:
Renelique’s attorney, Joseph Harrison, told the medical board, “His record of a lifetime of practicing medicine does not warrant revocation.”
The patient, Harrison said, “came in for an abortion. This patient came in to have the fetus rendered and terminated.”
The defense of this action is that “the patient wanted a baby killed, and that’s what she got”? Either that, or “What’s a little infanticide between colleagues”? Got it.
Also, the original Buffalo News report appears to have been cleansed. The Kid from Brooklyn send the link from the Boston Herald, which remains in its original form.
Blowback
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I think the time frame is closer to a week or two (the sperm can actually live for several days) and sometimes the cycle is not regular. No mater what you do, you still end up with some .1% chance or so (unless you are going Clintonian over what does and does not constitute sex).
Then again, you are running a risk of getting in a car accident just by driving to work each morning.
Count to 10 on February 6, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Go tell the Jews that 6 million of them weren’t murdered in WWII since their extermination was the law of the land in Germany at the time.
CDeb on February 6, 2009 at 12:15 PM
It really isn’t, not when you’re using dependability to determine viability.
They would significantly decrease.
Your most insane argument yet. Many things are valid and ration and yet, people disagree. Fancy that.
And now you’ve gone full hypocrite. You fail to accept the opposing side here while simultaneously demanding that pro-lifers do as you say and not as you do.
Women who can’t afford to raise a child can receive help from the government, charity organizations, or they can put the child up for adoption and actually make money off of carry the child to term as opposed to spending up to two grand to have the pregnancy terminated.
As to condom’s breaking, that’s what happens when you don’t use them properly or if you use them after they’ve expired.
On the issue of rape, reducing the abortions to less than 10% of where they’re at now would be a godsend to even pro-lifers, even though punishing the child for the sins of the father is not ideal.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:17 PM
Since RvW…how many…50,000,000 +/-
It’s sickening…
jerrytbg on February 6, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Almost no Americans respond to the 1 million abortions each year in the same way they would if 1 million adults were being murdered. At some level they believe the two to be different.
dedalus on February 6, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Last night someone compared Obama to Herod in light of his temper tantrum in his speech to the Dems caucus.
This morning I’m thinking of Obama as Herod because of Herod’s slaughter of the innocents in Bethlehem.
Only Obama will be responsible for the slaughter of a far greater number of innocents than Herod was.
I also remember Pharaoh and his slaughter of the Hebrew babies in Egypt.
Only Obama will be responsible for the slaughter of a far greater number of innocents than Pharaoh was.
Obama is an evil man. He not only condones evil, but he dresses it up nicely and gives approval to others who would practice the same.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Unless the mother doesn’t want it, which is what the current topic is about, not some hypothetical about life inside the womb but life outside it, being disregarded simply because the mother didn’t want it.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:24 PM
You’re both sort of right. The egg can only be fertilized for two days max, but usually only one day. However, you are correct that the sperm can live in the vagina/uterus for up to a week. That usually does not happen since the chemistry of the woman’s cervical mucus is not favorable for sperm to survive and travel into the uterus outside of her fertile days. Obviously there are exceptions.
As an aside, it’s amazing how people still equate Natural Family Planning with the rhythm method. The two are completely different. NFP is based on detailed observations of the woman’s basal body temperature and cervical mucus, so it is still quite effective for women with irregular cycles. It is not a guessing game based on the length of her past menstrual cycles. It is using current observations of the woman’s body to determine if she is currently fertile. I know tons of married couples who use NFP correctly and all of their children were planned. The few couples I know with NFP “OOPS” children knew they were “cheating” when they decided to have sex.
CDeb on February 6, 2009 at 12:26 PM
This is true, in part because of the effect on society. You can see missing adults, but you can’t see missing infants/fetuses unless the mother or father love them.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Thank you for the C. S. Lewis quote. It really fits. I’m going to repeat it as I know some people don’t go back to the early parts of a thread.
~From the preface of The Screwtape Letters
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:26 PM
This article was so sad to read. A bunch of murdering butchers. I hope they hang that woman that did that to that Baby. That is out and out Murder! I had a tubal pregnancy, when they were doing a Ultra Sound on me, I saw it along with the technician explode. I didn’t want to sign the papers for a emergency surgery. When my friend told me I would die if they don’t do the surgery. I signed the paper. I was in the operating room for 4 hours. That is how serious it can be. Was like a bomb. That isn’t an abortion. Had I not looked grey that day and felt like I was going to die I would have. My friend rushed me to the ER in Santa Barbara. A year later I had a complete hysterectomy. Other then that at conception a fetus is a Life. I don’t care what Abortion Murderers feel. They have no cause to support any type of Abortion.
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 12:26 PM
tommylotto the troll misses the whole crux of the argument. A society cannot bankrupt it’s future for the convenience of the present. That society is doomed for self annihilation. Conversely, accidents, sadly, will continue to happen. Please stop feeding the troll, sheesh. And to think I’ve only been here since September.
long_cat on February 6, 2009 at 12:32 PM
And by the definition of human being under our current laws and supported by our cultural norms (at birth), what happened in this story (if it happened) would be manslaughter or murder. There is no argument. Even Obama would agree that if the baby was born alive and the staff killed it, a law was broken. Ed in his post is being disingenuous. Obama was of the position that another law was not necessary, because the doctor was already under a duty to protect the life — if in fact the baby was born was alive.
But we all know that is not the value of the story, that lies in Ed using it to gin up the abortion nutz.
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 12:33 PM
I’m so sorry for your heartbreak. One of my friends had a tubal pregnancy and she was hemorrhaging. She and the baby both would have died.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Obama lied
Babies died
They really are the party of baby killers. May god damn them (assuming there is punsishment in the afterlife…assuming there is an afterlife).
SouthernGent on February 6, 2009 at 12:33 PM
I’ve been around here a lot longer than that. So, I guess you are the troll.
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Except that obviously this isn’t true. It is excepted practice, as many has testified to, so much so that our nation decided to make a law, one that Obama claimed he would have supported (so much for him thinking no law was necessary, right?) even though the bill put before him was identical.
Obviously you don’t, because you’re acting as though this is the first time he’s written on this and are completely ignoring the plethora of research made available here on this very subject.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Not calling you a troll, but the length of your stay is not at all an indication of your trollness.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Throwing in the “staff killed it” for cover for lies!
Links to Barack Obama’s votes on IL’s Born Alive Infant Protection Act
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:39 PM
Infanticide happens? How unfortunate for us all that it didn’t happen to him. It seems to me that our government is modeling itself after Nazi Germany, and I am as disgusted as I can be. Our government, as far as I am concerned, is now the enemy of freedom and the enemy of life. It is pure, calculating evil, and I hope it gets its ass handed to it in the harshest possible manner.
Chris37 on February 6, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Yeah, the sperm can live in there for days, but the egg is usually only there to be fertilized for 2-3days. No egg present, no possible pregnancy. Either way- it’s usually actually more difficult to get pregnant than to avoid pregnancy.
TheBlueSite on February 6, 2009 at 12:44 PM
Obama’s 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
Stanek substantiates and explains each point in the column.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM
That’s true. There is also the enforcement issue. Stopping the murder of a million adults could be done in a number of ways. Preventing a mother from ending her pregnancy is much more difficult.
dedalus on February 6, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Certainly. Women can cause the unborn to expire any number of ways, ways that can even be unintentional. Making laws to prevent that would violate a woman’s decision on what to do with her own body, lest we force her to stay in bed the entire nine months, eat only healthy food and stay away from things like alcohol and tobacco.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 12:51 PM
That’s why not letting The Freedom of Choice Act be passed is so crucial.
There are state laws that have been passed already that provide some restrictions on abortions. (Informed consent, parental consent, etc.) FOCA would eliminate those.
FOCA fact sheet here.
What the FOCA? home page.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Thanks INC, I realize that both of us would have died. The only reason they did the Ultra Sound was I told the Doctor I felt like I was going to die. He said those words made him give me a Ultra Sound. It has been a few years, and was something that wasn’t the time. I thank God that he gave me one Son. He is in his mid 30′s.
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 1:01 PM
So then you’re for anarchy, which inevitably leads to an oligarchy? If you claim there is no moral code by which we derive our laws, then what is law besides the whims of others?
So the day you become dependent upon insulin or any other medication or aid of others, we should have the choice to rid ourselves of you?
In what other area of law, specifically relating to human life and the value thereof, does the location of the person have any bearing? Location has no bearing in this discussion.
Secular does not equal “grounded in reason”. Sure, I understand that you are striving for consistency, but you must also understand that all roads do not lead to Rome with regards to Truth. We certainly have differing viewpoints in terms of origins, which gives us insights into purpose, morality, and endstate, but that does not mean we are on equal footing in terms of reason. If I need to get into First Cause, Irreducible Complexity, Biblical infallibility arguments, I will, but suffice to say, you don’t have the strangehold on reason here.
Can’t afford it? What a materialistic, very American, way of viewing life. So even though Christians in other parts of the world, very “poor” parts of the world, consider children a blessing, we have somehow convinced ourselves that unless a family/woman has $200,000 to raise a child, having said child is irresponsible, hence a justifiable reason for abortion? It’s a good thing our ancestors didn’t share your view.
And so what if the condom breaks? That’s a risk you take by having sex. Why should the child have to pay for the lack of responsibility of his parents with his life?
The same goes for rape. We don’t get to choose our parents. Whether rape was the cause or one or both of a child’s parents is a jerk, criminal, idiot, whatever, this does not give the mother any right to end the life of that child.
Send_Me on February 6, 2009 at 1:03 PM
So unless you are part of the echo chamber you are a troll? The abortion issue is killing the party. Am I suppose to sit by as a fringe majority kills fiscal conservatism with their extreme views?
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 1:04 PM
Almost no Americans respond to the 1 million Africans enslaved each year in the same way they would if 1 million Causasians were being enslaved. At some level they believe the two to be different.
History does indeed repeat.
18-1 on February 6, 2009 at 1:04 PM
I think this is a slam-dunk against the doctor. According to the Natl Conf of State Legislatures, Illinois is one of 36 states with fetal homicide laws.
Y-not on February 6, 2009 at 1:04 PM
You had a wise doctor. I’m so glad you already had a child.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 1:05 PM
Ooops, I read about Stanek so I was thinking this was Illinois… but I see it was Florida. No problem, it’s on the list of states having fetal homicide laws, too.
Y-not on February 6, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Thanks for sharing your heartbreaking story. My sister-in-law had a very similar situation with a tubal pregnancy. Her militantly pro-abortion husband’s inability to understand why she grieved over a what he termed “a medical procedure,” and the accompanying lack of emotional suppport, was one of the primary reasons for the disintegration of the marriage.
CDeb on February 6, 2009 at 1:07 PM
I am no Obama supporter. I do not even support Roe v. Wade on federalist grounds. However, read what he said. Although in his in-artful pre-teleprompter days, he said there was no need for the legislation because the doctor was already under a duty to save the life. He objected to the requirement of a second doctor to make the viability assessment, not that the assessment need not been made. He did not condone infanticide and the staff member who in this case killed this baby (allegedly) would be guilty of murder or manslaughter — even in Obama’s eyes.
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 1:12 PM
The gall you have to make that quip is STAGGERING.
What a compete and utter waste of space you are Tommy…
MechEng5by5 on February 6, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Yup I escaped from the zoo to enlighten my lesser primate cousins like yourself. The ‘proof’ is the posts on this page, the pro-life pressure groups, the televangelists railing against the evils of abortion in their one-sided spittle-spewing diatribes launched from the pulpits, its the lawsuits, the abortion-clinic bombers and the marchers/picketers, the christian thugs who harass and threaten women trying to enter an abortion clinic, etc.
So what, that’s still no argument for banning abortions and what statistics can you present to show its beyond a negligible phenomena?
Easy now-don’t go reaching for those canned cookie-cutter answers from your Christian script that you’re reading just yet.
The ‘sanctity of life’ argument is bogus because its untrue and merely a subjective assumption. Life isn’t inherently precious otherwise we wouldn’t be waging world wars. Life can be great if you’re healthy and rich but life can also be intolerable, miserable and pointless. Those value-judgments we ascribe to life have no validity in the natural world, they’re just our own hollow labels.
Are you seriously claiming not to know the difference between a zygote, fetus and a baby? Your derisive sarcasm seems to suggest you know, but then if you know why not make your point instead of asking?
As for viability it depends on where you decide to draw the line and how many fetuses can survive outside the womb.
But just in case you are clueless behind that overt display of smugness, a zygote is a fertilized egg that divides into a small clump of cells, a fetus is a developing baby and of course a baby is essentially a fully formed human that can live outside the womb. Of course this definition is really the battle line between pro/anti abortionists for their respective positions.
That’s debatable, but notice you shied away from answering this question. So you do support abortion in the case of rape…that makes you’re a baby-killing hypocrite.
Who’s arrogance takes more precedence, yours forcing women to have babies they don’t want or mine to state they’d be better off dead instead of in a foster home?
Once again I refer to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body. Its been said that men can get pregnant, would you like to be forced to have a child against your will (say you were injected with a fertilized egg)?
Would you volunteer to carry to term a fetus that some woman doesn’t want? That is really what you should do if you believe strongly in your views and the life of the potential baby.
This is your biological expertise, to conflate these terms as all being human? Well certainly in the broadest most pedestrian sense, but they are all various stages in our development-but the crucial one being in the womb.
Try as you might, you cannot escape the fact that a fetus is reliant on the mother and she has a right to say what is done to her body-unless you’re a Nazi fascist who gets the final say and use people for evil medical experiments.
End of discussion.
That “someone” is growing in her body-perhaps that “someone” should go find somewhere else to live since its not wanted, like in your body since you want it to grow.
People have killed themselves and/or their children when they could not afford to keep them, because they understood a reality you can’t seem to–if you don’t have money how will you feed yourself and your family?
I realize some religious folk have difficulty grasping the idea of ‘common sense’, that’s why I’m willing to work with you.
That’s a pathetic argument laden with silly emotional appeals. Are you denying a woman’s right to decide what happens to her body? Should I have the right to force you to have a child (men can get pregnant too)?
There are sane reasons but theists like you ignore them because you’re trying to be good little christian-rats in god’s great lab experiment and are doing all these things to get your imaginary slice of cheeze after your die.
Thanks for another useless post and wasting my time.
Agreed, it’d be a good time to buy stocks in wire-hanger companies since their prices will go through the roof.
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Every day I just wanna kick that guy even harder.
Ryan Gandy on February 6, 2009 at 1:13 PM
So what do you say to all those teenage kids who gave birth in a bathroom and drown it or dump it the dumpster out back who got put in jail for the act? That if you don’t want to use your state’s Safe Haven Law, why don’t you just pop on over to Planned Parenthood so they can flush it, drown it, bag it, and dump it right?
PATHETIC!
Sultry Beauty on February 6, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Do you mean fringe minority??? If we’re a majority, we’re not fringe. If we’re a minority how can we kill the party?
thevastlane on February 6, 2009 at 1:16 PM
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 1:01 PM
I fought the Doctor when he told me I had to go into surgery. I felt that it was aborting the baby. After I went home and researched about Tubal Pregnancies, I learned that no one wins. Both will die. I had no support either. My ex of 14 years was very angry. I was happy he was because I carried on with my life. Have a wonderful hubby now. Took years to get this guilt out. I hope your Sister-In-Law is doing better with her life. This is something that a woman needs support from. Sadly, it happens to often and breaks up relationships.
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM
I’m sure this happens more often than people realize. What bothers me (besides the callous brutality of the clininc owner), is that this Williams girl is complaining. Did it take her having to see the baby killed for her to realize that that’s what abortion is? I guess she was fine with the baby being killed inside her and removed while she was anesthetized, the problem was that the baby was killed in front of her.
They’re all a bunch of sickos.
Sensible Mom on February 6, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Thanks for the rich irony.
If you want to debate it, then debate the Alan Gutmacher Institute, a pro-abortion group. Those are their numbers. And no, I do not support murdering people because their fathers are rapists.
My arrogance doesn’t result in a dead person. Yours does.
So is my two-year old.
As long as she doesn’t kill someone in exercising that right, sure. Try as you might, you cannot escape the biological fact that this “right” results in the death of another unique human being over a matter of convenience.
CDeb on February 6, 2009 at 1:31 PM
I had a truly wonderful experience this morning.
Milwaukee WISN 1130AM talk show host Vicki McKenna had an ex-abortion doctor on who explained the Dilation & Extraction procedure in detail.
The reason for the special debate here is the the UW MAdison Hospital board just voted to start a second trimester abortion clinic at the publicly funded hospital (research WAS mentioned). I’m calling it “Auschwitz on the Isthmus”.
Basically his procedure was to reach into the woman’s womb and carefully tear the baby apart by ripping one limb off at a time (the process of pulling the baby down so the doctor can reach the skull usually tears the limbs off) and then punching the base of the skull to vacuum out the brain so pulling the rest of the baby out was easier (and legal as the child is now dead).
He said that there was absolutely nothing preservative to the mother’s health in the procedure as the stress she went thru during the procedure was easily as bad as regular child-birth.
When the Wrath of God falls on us and anyone wants to know why we are suffering, just think on the suffering these children AND their mothers endure … and multiply by around 50 million.
babylonandon on February 6, 2009 at 1:35 PM
For those of us who have given birth, or want to give birth, life has a real meaning, however & whenever it starts.
Kibbitzing over what came first, chicken or egg, etc. (although I realize someone is going to bring up that scientists feel they have determined that already-I know, I read about it)-my point:
Whenever you justify one atrocity, you leave the door open to justify other atrocities.
This will not stop at abortion or infanticide. It is moving further on in the face of the Kevorkian-types.
It may someday be as we saw with Hitler-you are a Few, you are a Caucasian, you are a Black, An Asian or you just look funny-so you are inferior, you are muddying the gene pool-therefore you must die.
And this is when science is used for evil.
Women who have felt a fetus move inside their bodies, who have ANY compassion & reason within themselves, KNOW this is a human being.
But until a woman experiences these things, she may be torn & may listen to bad advice, regretting her partly uninformed decision later on.
So folks like tommylotto etc are already alive, perhaps is a man & has never felt to wonder of a baby growing inside them.
Bcs of this, it is quite easy to be able to determine what is worth letting live, and what is worth killing.
It feels like end times.
Are we going to kill & un-breed ourselves out of existence?
Think of the loss of diversity in our gene pool?
We will pay dearly for this on a horrific level someday.
Badger40 on February 6, 2009 at 1:38 PM
DUH.
Badger40 on February 6, 2009 at 1:39 PM
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 1:12 PM
You might wanna get a hold of your own smugness and self-righteousness before you talk about anyone else. That being said:
1. Babies don’t share brains, brainwaves, or anything of the sort with their mothers. Logically taking your argument to the next step, a parent has the right to kill their child for any reason given that until the age of 18 they are “reliant” on the parent.
2. What if the baby is female? What happens to the rights of that woman’s body?
Godwin’s Law now broken. You lose.
Ryan Gandy on February 6, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Badger40 on February 6, 2009 at 1:39 PM
I’d have thought ‘F’ and ‘J’ were far enough away from each other on the keyboard.
Ryan Gandy on February 6, 2009 at 1:42 PM
When I was 18 and stupid, I chose to have an abortion. I am not a prochoicer because I have regretted my choice everyday since then. I knew what I was doing was wrong and my decision haunts me to this day. I stopped going to church, stopped praying and tried to hide from God. Untill I couldn’t anymore.
Now, at the age of 42 and as the mother of two girls, I have really only just accepted the fact that eventhough I chose to kill my baby, I have asked for and accepted God’s forgiveness and vow to cherish life.
My life sucked for a long time, and I will always have an empty place in my life where my child should be.
Pulchritudinous Patriot on February 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Wow that was a compelling post! I agree with what you said. I do feel that the Government is trying to cut down our existence.
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 1:50 PM
SO WHAT?!?, you freaking jerk, you make a statement about Christian hypocracy and then have the nerve to disregard a retort to your attack.
Yes, yes do tell your sob story. Those horrible people who care about those little ones who can’t defend themselves. How dare they use their right to freedom of speech to protest. How dare they present options like adoption and support groups to these girls…yes yes do tell.
(speaking of little ones, what does fetus mean anyways?)
Thinkagain, you really do sound like an idiot making these arguements, you know that right?
MechEng5by5 on February 6, 2009 at 1:51 PM
Bless your heart. Big warm hug to you.
sheebe on February 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM
I’m retarded, what can I say.
I know God knows your heartache & your true heart. Your pain is punishment enough. I know you will be united with Him despite your action.
The breeding thing is already taking shape in Europe.
Mark Steyn points this out in one of his later books.
I’d like to fast forward 50,000 yrs & see what effect this has on the human gene pool.
Badger40 on February 6, 2009 at 1:57 PM
More hugs and I pray for God’s comfort and continued healing for you.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Ed, shouldn’t this modification of a significant story by a newspaper be news in its’ own right?
I’d be interested in hearing why they modified the story.
cryptojunkie on February 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Thank you for sharing that. This is a rough subject that has touched more people personally than I ever would have thought.
Anna on February 6, 2009 at 2:00 PM
I’m so sorry. Hopefully this can still be used for good though in keeping others from taking the path you did.
I try to be as clear as possible when I type, so if I didn’t write it, please don’t assume I meant to. I didn’t call you a troll. My only point is that sometimes trolls hang around. Their length of stay doesn’t take away from their troll status.
Pro-life and fiscal conservative are not incompatible. Besides, if you’re sincerely worried about saving the party, insulting the pro-lifers isn’t going to help. Try speaking their language and listening and having an honest discussion on the issue or else it’s useless to act as though you’re changing anything.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 2:01 PM
It’s funny how the same group who would lobby for their to be no waiting period for abortions are the generally the same ones who want to force law-abiding citizens to wait a week before buying a firearm.
I don’t care where you stand on this issue. This story and the hundreds out there just like them set an alarming and dangerous precedent. If someone chooses to end their own life for whatever reason, I really don’t have a problem with that. Whatever judgment is waiting for them on the other side is between them and God. But tragedies like this one in Florida underscore the slippery slope we’re headed down, toward a time when governments and doctors will be the ultimate arbiters of whether a life is “viable” or not. And to those in the pro-choice camp who would draw a distinction between between a life in the womb and one outside of it, this case clearly shows that for many, there is no such distinction. And if you think we’re not headed toward a day when the sick, the infirm, the elderly and the mentally disabled aren’t tossed out with the trash just like this premature infant, you are fooling yourselves.
This story positively sickens me. My heart breaks for this poor girl. I don’t imagine the decision to have an abortion is ever an easy one to begin with. She must have been terrified. Now she will forever be haunted by this nightmare as well. Perhaps if her community, her parents, and her school had spent more time educating her on the consequences of having sex, perhaps if they had invested a little more time talking about abstinence and a little less on on where to get condoms, this horrible atrocity never would have happened.
NoLeftTurn on February 6, 2009 at 2:03 PM
There was a war fought over slavery, and for decades before it the government was consumed with the issue, unable to bring new states into the nation without fights over keeping the balance equal between slave and free states.
There is a big difference between the 35 years since Roe and the period between the Missouri Compromise and South Carolina’s secession.
dedalus on February 6, 2009 at 2:04 PM
The links above do not give the details. I had saved some text of details and through this found the news release from The Thomas Moore Society which is going to court
The details that should never be omitted:
The baby writhed and gasped for air
The lungs contained air but the coroner ruled death due to prematurity. Yes, that would be true of all premies who need intervention to live.
What a shame the MSM wants the truth about waterboarding, but not the truth about a baby gasping for air being stuffed in a plastic bag to suffocate
I wouldn’t do this to a kitten or a baby squirrel
entagor on February 6, 2009 at 2:05 PM
+1
Anna on February 6, 2009 at 2:07 PM
I wish comfort could be sent electronically . . .
You are in my prayers. May peace be with you.
Loxodonta on February 6, 2009 at 2:15 PM
My tone in my precious posts has been (justifiably) very very angry because of today’s story in the Buffalo News. But Jack H. at Forgotten Prophets lays it out much better than I ever could.
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/2007/12/abortion.html
MechEng5by5 on February 6, 2009 at 2:16 PM
This is what the aboortionists dont want you to see
partial birth abortions
outright murder..
this is some seriously sick crap..
jcila on February 6, 2009 at 2:25 PM
why dont they just throw a nazi flag over the ovens in tha abortion mills and just start throwing babies inside?
its the same damn thing they just do it so you cant hear the babies cries before its death..
jcila on February 6, 2009 at 2:26 PM
If you missed this column from Big Hollywood, take the time to read it. It is profoundly moving.
Flashpoint! A Woman’s Right To Choose
Gary Graham tells his story as he changed from being proabortion to being prolife.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Don’t forget letting invalids starve to death (Terry Schiavo) or the elderly die because keeping them alive is too costly or a burden. (Euthenasia – Oregon).
Is there any doubt that national health care will lead to “cost effective” deaths for the good of society?
The Democrats really are the party of death – is there any doubt?
jerseyman on February 6, 2009 at 2:32 PM
Most women who have abortions go on to have children later in life. Is is when they choose to have them. Right or wrong you decided to not start having children at 18, but you still cherish life and decided to bring into the world two new lives. Good for you. Don’t feel guilty about the past. You were destined to have two children and you have them. But your anecdote cannot be generalized and adds nothing to the debate as to when a fetus becomes a human being.
My wife, when we first started dating got pregnant and she decided to have an abortion (responsibly, early on in the pregnancy, and without a partially birthed fetuses gasping for breath). We went on to get married and have the two children that we were destined to have. We probably would have stopped at two regardless of when they came to us. That is how many children we wanted and were meant to have. Trust me the two I have are a handful and enough for me. But once again these personal isolated anecdotes (like yours, mine and the one in this story) are only a tiny small part of the bigger question as to when our culture should determine when a fetus develops into a HUMAN BEING.
The pro-life zealots that are killing our party are waving the questionable horrible stories like the one in the Buffalo News just like the Hamas Green Helmet Guy waives around a dead baby for partisan propaganda.
How do we know this woman’s story is legitimate. What does the staff member have to say that allegedly murdered the live baby? We know that pregnancy causes fluctuating hormones. She admits she was sedated at some time in the process. We also know that many women (like yourself) feel guilty after having an abortion. Could it be that she had a false hallucination or a nightmare and her guilty soul convinced her that she did not have an abortion but gave birth to a live baby that was killed?
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 2:34 PM
tommylotto,
This is from the American Academy of Medical Ethics.
This is from a paper they did regarding ESC research, but the biological background is certainly applicable here.
Cell biology:
INC on February 6, 2009 at 2:39 PM
This is their statement regarding Human Personhood: (their emphasis)
INC on February 6, 2009 at 2:39 PM
From another paper from AAME: The Woman and the Physician Facing Abortion: The Role of Correct Science in the Formation of Conscience and the Moral Decision Making Process
INC on February 6, 2009 at 2:41 PM
More from The Woman and the Physician Facing Abortion: The Role of Correct Science in the Formation of Conscience and the Moral Decision Making Process
INC on February 6, 2009 at 2:42 PM
Cdeb that was a Nice knock-out punch you delivered to tommylotto. People like tommylotto don’t understand there is a higher law than man-made law.
Maxx on February 6, 2009 at 2:44 PM
That’s because everybody that does nothing about abortion, has already been born.
Maxx on February 6, 2009 at 2:53 PM
You are correct that the investigation has not been completed yet and we don’t have the whole story.
However, acting on a tip about the incident, the police found a dead baby/fetus in a sack hidden in a closet that had air in its lungs and genetically matched the woman claiming this happened.
While she probably does not have all the details 100% correct, the evidence currently supports the broader story of the baby/fetus being born, taking at least 1 breath and being disposed of in a sack. That the sack was found in a closet weeks later rather than disposed of in the normal way lends even more credence to the claim that something non-standard happened there.
JadeNYU on February 6, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Excellent point and I think this is the crux of the issue. The pro-life moonbats will definitely cause a major rift if not a break-up of the party which will essentially hand the liberals a permanent dominance/hegemony over the country and along with it America’s demise.
By the way an interesting fact for the people here:
77% of Americans are in favor of abortions
22% are anti-abortion
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Then both Obama and I would agree the staff did something wrong and should be prosecuted. End of discussion.
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 3:00 PM
I am already aware that there are some politically active groups that disagree with the majority of American on this issue, but thanks for the cites anyway.
tommylotto on February 6, 2009 at 3:02 PM
That same link shows me that a majority of Americans are in favor of outlawing 96% of the abortions currently performed in the US.
Ignoring the fact that you are comparing informed opinion with uniformed.
Careful, the measure with which you measure can be an s.o.b.
CDeb on February 6, 2009 at 3:08 PM
I find it odd that many states are passing tougher and tougher laws to limit, if not eliminate abortion if Americans are so pro-abortion.
But your numbers, even if correct, don’t matter because this is a moral issue. So what “most people think” just doesn’t matter to the individual that sees this as a moral issue.
Maxx on February 6, 2009 at 3:17 PM
We can’t let this die. We can’t let this story die.
gocatholic on February 6, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Terry Schiavo asked to be euthanized if she ever ended up in a vegetative state (as I have with my relatives). By demanding doctors keep her alive, you are denying her wish to die in peace and inflicting an endless torture on her by forcing her to live when her life no longer has any usefulness to her. Incidentally the autopsy showed she was brain-dead.
Hey if you want to be bed-ridden or die a slow bloody, painful death from some disease eating you alive that’s your prerogative, but don’t tell me I (or others) can’t choose how and when I may end my life via medical means.
Yes Canada (which has universal healthcare) is killing all those they can’t afford to heal. *facepalm*
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Democrats / Liberals call Republicans names like neanderthals and rednecks, yet, they are the ones all for the MURDER of unborn children, and the MURDER of live-birth failed abortions, and they loudly and vocally demand the right to it. They’re repulsive. They’d sooner lament over the ill treatment of a dog or a cat than cast this abhorent and evil practice even a passing glance.
When did this country become the cradle of murderous heathens passing themselves off as the ‘more intelligent and tolerant’ of the human race? The Democrats / Liberals are giving the blood thirsty savages of militant extremist Islam a run for their money in the quest for the title of ‘most barbaric’.
FlatFoot on February 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM
So says her husband, the man who was already living with someone else long before they starved her to death, and no one else at all who knew Terry.
That’s not true.
The law is fairly specific on suicide.
Esthier on February 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM
It seems strange to advocate the murder of adults if you’re opposed to the murder of infants.
Sign of the Dollar on February 6, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Can you point out where in the link it says that? I found no such reference.
Let’s make sure you’re not confusing people’s desire to end abortions with the legal right to have them. I for instance would prefer if abortions didn’t happen but I believe in allowing the right for women to have them for any reason.
Believing that abortions are wrong and should be outlawed based on gaining one’s moral perspective from ancient desert fairytales is not an ‘informed opinion’, its lunacy.
Equating a clump of cells in a womb to a fully formed baby is ignorance of science and biology. Now if you have more compelling arguments to support your pro-life stance I’ll be happy to consider it.
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Out of curiosity, why is it wrong?
I understand if you’re saying it’s a violation of laws and should therefore be prosecuted.
If you’re saying it’s wrong for a different reason though, I don’t get it.
The 22 week old fetus was scheduled to be aborted. At that stage of development, it was probably a D & E. Dilate the cervix the reach in with clamps to tear out pieces of “tissue” that look remarkably similar to arms and legs then crush the skull and pull it out. Job done!
Honestly, death from exposure after being born sounds like a much less painful way to go than what was actually planned for the baby.
Why are people upset at the way it went down when many of those people (such as the local rep from NOW) are perfectly content with the far more vicious procedure that everyone at that clinic intended to perform that day?
JadeNYU on February 6, 2009 at 3:40 PM
To me, it’s a matter of personal responsibility. You chose to have sex, and if you get pregnant, grow up and deal with it. Can’t handle the baby? Adoption. I’ve been there, and done that – I ended up keeping my daughter, which led to all sorts of awesome things. If you step behind the wheel of a car drunk, and hit someone, you’ll have to take responsibility too.
Our sexuality is a powerful thing – I would not seek for anyone to fully deny it. But first and foremost, the primary purpose of sex is procreation. If one does not respect that, they have no business having sex in the first place. A baby, a future adult, should not suffer because you were too lazy to use birth control or wank it in your bedroom.
Somehow I managed to come to that conclusion without looking to “ancient desert fairytales.” Abortion isn’t the easy way out (it’s hell to recover from), but it is skirting the responsibility and consequence that comes with being sexually active.
Anna on February 6, 2009 at 3:48 PM
Why would he lie, if he was some cruel heartless bastard he could easily walk away, leave it up to her family and enjoy his life.
He battled the family/courts to fulfill her request and I’d do no less for my loved ones. He’s a hero.
Yes it is, get your facts straight.
I was referring to being euthanized if I was in a similar situation as Schiavo.
thinkagain on February 6, 2009 at 3:48 PM
Yes they have, but in the analogy to slavery there were many non-blacks who sacrificed on behalf of abolition. People are capable of risking their welfare on behalf of others.
dedalus on February 6, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Sadly, exactly true. I would only add one thing: Life only begins at the moment you’re wanted by your mother. No one else wanting you even counts, according to these people.
tom on February 6, 2009 at 4:03 PM
American Power tracked-back with, “Social Conservatives Abandoning Republican Party?”:
http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/social-conservatives-abandoning.html
Donald Douglas on February 6, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Well, there are women that don’t want their children, and still give birth to them (my grandmother never wanted my mother). We need to get the message out there that even though the woman carrying the baby might not want it, there are mothers out there that do. So that would make that baby very much alive.
Anna on February 6, 2009 at 4:11 PM
So when our society said that Negroes were not actually human, it was ok to make slaves of them? And I suppose it only became wrong when our society decided, “Whoops! Maybe they’re human after all?”
I guess life is simpler when you don’t have principles.
tom on February 6, 2009 at 4:11 PM
An update for you which I just put on my blog. http://genuinegopmomblogspot.com
Is Buffalo News credible? I think they removed the part about the baby and placenta being scooped up together. Here is the portion of my post on this:
The reason I believe the woman’s account originally appeared on the Buffalo News page and was later removed is that I Googled the phrase “Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair” and the first listing that came up was the Buffalo News story. Google was returning cached text for the search results but a cached page link was not available. The only link available was the main link and that story did not include the phrase “Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair”. For this reason, I believe Buffalo News originally reported that but then removed it. Two questions: (1) Is that a fact? and (2) Why remove that?
gocatholic on February 6, 2009 at 4:15 PM
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
You don’t change reality by a misnomer.
INC on February 6, 2009 at 4:16 PM
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