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The next bubble: student loans and Academia

posted at 10:58 am on February 5, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
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Picture a market with overpriced product, driven by government-subsidized consumers that create an artificially high demand with overextended debt, on which major institutions rely as investments.  A description of the American housing market, 1998-2008?  Sure, but it also describes the American college market, and Kathy Kristof writes for Forbes that Academia may be the next bubble to pop:

Misguided easy-money policies that are encouraging the masses to go into debt; a self-serving establishment trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product; plus a Wall Street money machine dabbling in outright fraud as it foists unaffordable debt on the most vulnerable marks.

College graduates will earn $1 million more than those with only a high school diploma, brags Mercy College radio ads running in the New York area. The $1 million shibboleth is a favorite of college barkers.

Like many good cons, this one contains a kernel of truth. Census figures show that college grads earn an average of $57,500 a year, which is 82% more than the $31,600 high school alumni make. Multiply the $25,900 difference by the 40 years the average person works and, sure enough, it comes to a tad over $1 million.

But anybody who has gotten a passing grade in statistics knows what’s wrong with this line of argument. A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. …

Offsetting that million-dollar income discrepancy is the $46,700 four-year cost of tuition, fees, books, room and board at a public school and $99,900 at a private one–even after financial aid, scholarships and grants. Add all this to the equation and college grads don’t pull even with high school grads in lifetime income until age 33 on average, the College Board says. Even that doesn’t include the $125,000 in pay students forgo over four years.

It’s impossible to recap Kristof’s thorough reporting here; one has to read the entire column.  One difference between the housing subprime market and what Kristof describes as the student subprime market is the lack of government guarantees on the most profitable of the loans.  Lenders can do better by avoiding government purchase of the paper, as they can avoid some of the restrictions.

Otherwise, the student lending market carries most of the same characteristics of the housing meltdown: exaggerated claims, predatory lending, and overburdened borrowers who quickly learn that they’ve gotten in over their heads.  Many of these loans come at credit-card interest rates, as the regulations do not impose a cap.  What happens?  Students default, ruining their credit for years and leaving the lenders and their investors with empty pockets.  SLM, called Sallie Mae, has lost 80% of its shareholder value thanks to what it called “nontraditional lending”, although its CEO mananged to cash out in 2007 with $72 million in stock sales before the bill came due.  If that sounds familiar, see Franklin Raines and Fannie Mae.

The root cause of this impending bubble is the same for the housing market.  Politicians decided that all students should go to college, just as they decided that all people should own their own home.  Those are certainly admirable goals, but prescriptions for disaster as public policy.  Rather than create public colleges with no requirement for tuition, which would have been the honest way to implement that policy but completely unpalatable as a spending plan, the federal government pushed for tuition loans, upping the demand at universities.  With billions of dollars flooding the market and consumer demand dramatically rising, prices increased across the board, predictable from the basic economic law of supply and demand.  When prices increased, the subsidies increased, which increased demand and pushed prices higher, creating a vicious cycle … exactly as it did in the housing market.

Government has to get out of the lending markets altogether.  If politicians want to subsidize education, they should create more supply and lower the price in order to create the increased accessibility they want, not create bubbles in lending markets.  Better yet, government should stay out of it altogether and let the market take care of itself.


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Not a moment too soon.

LimeyGeek on February 5, 2009 at 11:00 AM

Meanwhile Paul Volcker calls Larry Summers a woman, because he has an inferior brain and cannot lead like a real man.

Volcker then orders Larry to go do the ironing! Lead, follow, or get out of the way! We have a stimulus plan to pass, Obama’s legacy is dying! Colleges might not have a way to bilk Federally guaranteed loans from prospective suckers!

Mr. Joe on February 5, 2009 at 11:01 AM

Liberals hate big oil, big pharmaceuticals, big business, but big academia is the biggest scam of all

Bevan on February 5, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Well, seeing as the University’s receive gov. subsidies….time to cap the salaries.
President of University…$125,000
Prof….$65,000
That should help.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:02 AM

wait till the pension bubble bursts.

lorien1973 on February 5, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Crap. I work in academia.

rbj on February 5, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Actually, since education is such a important part of our society…I always wondered why paying for education is not a tax right off…wouldn’t that encourage more participation?

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM

I can’t wait for Barry to pay off my student loans! Still waiting on the mortgage and free gas, though.

Anna on February 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM

Academia is the one place that does seem to need some regulation.

How about a student can only get more than 50% of max fed loan amount unless they have a major that requires a full year of calculus… and no federal student loans for grad students unless that have completed two years of calculus…

an added benefit would be to put some serious pressure on the public school system to improve its math curriculum…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Oh, great. Free college education for all the young-uns.

Gotta brain wash them some more, you know.

Sir Napsalot on February 5, 2009 at 11:07 AM

Actually, since education is such a important part of our society…
right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM

The vast majority of hot air readers would disagree with your assumption. Here, an education is something to be ridiculed.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Celente called the College Crash as well:

Show me the greatness that you’ve produced. They show me nothing. Colleges over-expanded, over-consumed, lost direction.

Rae on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Academia is run like NASA

tomas on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

A modest proposal: For any school that takes federal money, cap School Administrator’s maximum pay to $200,000 and full professors to $100,000.

That is fair, isn’t it?

Mr. Joe on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

I’ve hired a bunch of people in my current job, and I’ve done so working with a few other people who have done it much longer. The fact is- employers want workers with college degrees. The great majority of students could never afford a degree program at a community college, let alone a major private university.

Without stafford loans, pell grants, and the like- most kids would never be able to afford school, and they’d all get passed up for those rich kids whose parents paid their way out of pocket. As the system exists now, that is.

How you resolve the problem as it stands now, I’ve no idea, but I don’t think college is a scam in any way. With most high tech jobs, most of us would never get the chance to to even look at the equipment required to do the jobs, let alone a chance to learn how to use these tools without colleges giving us that instruction. If you have no experience, no one wants to hire you, if you have no education, you have no experience…but you can’t get the experience in most fields unless you have the education.

It’s a massive pain in the arse no matter how you cut it.

TheBlueSite on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Let’s just save time, and give them a bailout now.

Vashta.Nerada on February 5, 2009 at 11:09 AM

Clear out all those aging, tenured, socialist freak-a-zoids who have helped ruin our country for 40 years.

The only thing I’d miss are football and March Madness.

DIE DIE DIE WORST GENERATION!

Thanks in advance.

ex-Democrat on February 5, 2009 at 11:09 AM

right2bright underbid me! Okay, I agree, lower it further. We all have to sacrifice, starting with higher education!

Mr. Joe on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Personally I think this is a far more serious problem than the housing crisis. Unlike defaulting on your mortgage, people CANNOT default on their college loans. How are people suppose to save for the future if they are burden with these despicable loans.

College has its advantages, but no name private school should be abolish. All they do is create the illusion of a education, while all they do is burden people is untold debt for years to come.

Most college education is racket anyway. If great to have if you can afford it.

This is one business I think government needs to step into. We need to stop colleges inflating their tuition cost. College tuition is going to bankrupt the country unless we put a stop to this.

Lance Murdock on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

The hyping of undergrad degrees is nothing compared to the hyping by law schools, who tell prospective students about the wonderful careers they will have, starting out with six-figure salaries and hefty bonuses. In reality, maybe 25% of law grads get these jobs in the best of times. Today it’s closer to 10%. Meanwhile, most recent law school grads are carrying 100-200K of debt and no way in hell to pay it off.

They aren’t purely innocent victims, but many would’ve thought twice if it hadn’t been so easy to borrow the dough from Uncle Sam.

BuzzCrutcher on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

wait till the pension bubble bursts.

lorien1973 on February 5, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Oh, boy…you have got that right.
It is already happening…the boomers are just reaching the retirement age, the next 15 years is going to be really something.
Us boomers have driven the economy from the day we were born. Do you think this housing bust is purely because of mortgages?
How about “empty nesters” looking to downsize, retiring from NY, CA, and looking to move somewhere either warmer or cheaper, and certainly smaller and less cost.
This was the “perfect storm” of low income being over extended, and the upper income retirees looking to move away from the large family house.
Pensions are being tapped every day at a record pace…and in the next 15 years it will be shocking.
There won’t be enough of you youngsters to change our diapers, let alone pay our Social Securitiy, and wiped out pensions…

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Academia is run like NASA

… or visa vis.

Fletch54 on February 5, 2009 at 11:11 AM

First of all everyone doesn’t need to go to college, nor does everyone have the capabilities to excel at college. Colleges have become a business, in the sense that they try to convince everyone they need to go to college, or else they will be saying “Do you want fries with that?” I know people who went to college who are successful, and some who are not. Same for people who didn’t go to college.

MDWNJ on February 5, 2009 at 11:11 AM

Crap. I work in academia.

rbj on February 5, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Me too, playa. Shizzle.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on February 5, 2009 at 11:11 AM

A long time ago, colleges were like monasteries where instructors earned a modest living and thrived on their vocation for teaching. Back in the day, tuition for a semester was a few hundred dollars. With the glut of Ph.D’s on the market and the availability of electronic library materials, I can see this model making a comeback.

Mark30339 on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

While you have a point, I think the danger of people suddenly stopping borrowing money for college is a lot less than the danger was of people not buying as many houses.

Bill Scrunty on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Clear out all those aging, tenured, socialist freak-a-zoids who have helped ruin our country for 40 years.

Can we please?? Pretty please?

TheBlueSite on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

These bail-outs are getting perilously close to the point when ordinary working people will decide that they have had enough.

I’m real tired of hearing how everybody else gets gigantic financial concessions while I pay for it.

Of course, a one-person revolt will end up with me in jail.

But I know there are millions like me.

notagool on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

The vast majority of hot air readers would disagree with your assumption. Here, an education is something to be ridiculed.
ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Hey, did anyone get the name of that strawman who just walked through here?

Slublog on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

Actually, since education is such a important part of our society…I always wondered why paying for education is not a tax right off…wouldn’t that encourage more participation?

That sounds like a great formula for real abuse. Most colleges are overpriced, the teachers are hacks, and a degree can be very overrated. Time for some sanity to prevail. I went to a community college 30 years ago and then finished at a satellite school of a major university system. I lived at home. Worked more than full time. Paid for everything as I went. After four years I had a degree, no debt and the industry I am in did not give one crap about any degree. I have never had to show GPA’s or a diploma and somehow I have survived and been my own boss for almost 30 years.

izoneguy on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

I can’t wait for Barry to pay off my student loans! Still waiting on the mortgage and free gas, though.

Anna on February 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM

Neither can I! Stupid me, I’ve already paid off one of my three and am working on the second…looks like it might turn out to be money wasted.

MadisonConservative on February 5, 2009 at 11:13 AM

right2bright underbid me! Okay, I agree, lower it further. We all have to sacrifice, starting with higher education!

Mr. Joe on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Split the difference…$150,000 and $85,000…we would be money ahead…oh, and they have to pay for their own medical and contribute to a 401k…

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:13 AM

Slublog on February 5, 2009 at 11:12 AM

What i’m wrong? How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

These bail-outs are getting perilously close to the point when ordinary working people will decide that they have had enough.

I’m real tired of hearing how everybody else gets gigantic financial concessions while I pay for it.

Of course, a one-person revolt will end up with me in jail.

But I know there are millions like me.

Maybe it is time for a big “no more bailout rally” in DC???
March from the capitol down to the White House….

izoneguy on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

What i’m wrong? How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?
ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

Ahem. “Loathe” the educated, Professor.

Slublog on February 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

And it costs even more when Michael Phelps is your roommate and you bong your brains out, and it takes 6 years to graduate. Yeah, I’m raising my hand on that one…but I always pay my taxes.

kirkill on February 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

The vast majority of hot air readers would disagree with your assumption. Here, an education is something to be ridiculed.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

It’s comforting for liberal arts majors like you to view those with actually applicable degrees as ignorant, isn’t it? You’re sore about your worthless sociology degree that is no more a certification of knowledge than used toilet paper, and so you lash out at those who attempted to better themselves and prepare to become useful contributors to this nation. It’s all right, but really, you shouldn’t let bitterness affect you so.

MadisonConservative on February 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

That’s it… I’m done paying my loans.

Abby Adams on February 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

20,000. And we can’t pay that right now.

Mommypundit on February 5, 2009 at 11:17 AM

A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. It may reflect nothing more than the fact that the economy rewards smart people and smart people are likely to go to college. To cite the extreme and obvious example: Bill Gates is rich because he knows how to run a business, not because he matriculated at Harvard. Finishing his degree wouldn’t have increased his income.

Great catch Ed. I love this article. The quote is from Kristof who truly gets it. Its like the Emperors New Clothes story. It is assumed that all smart people go to college, but we all know that going to college does not make you smart.

Think of co-workers you have met with Ivy League or graduate degrees. How many have a sense of entitlement, that somehow their work “stands out,” or that they don’t have to work as hard because they work “smarter.” These are the clothes that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. A very expensive line to purchase on your resume.

Angry Dumbo on February 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM

What i’m wrong? How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

When your degree is only good for becoming a college professor in said field, and not even doing it properly, there is every reason to lambast higher education.

MadisonConservative on February 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:02 AM

Yes. And those of us who work in the trenches at the public community colleges get nowhere near that. I have a PhD in genetics, and I teach microbiology for nursing/health science students as well as biotechnology classes. My pay (Indiana) for a 9-month contract (Fall and Spring semesters) = $34k. If I decide to teach the summer semester, I receive 1/3 of my contract.

FYI, since we are an open enrollment institution (got a pulse and you’re in), our tuition is not very expensive. We live on shoestring budgets every year. Our state wants us to cut 4% from our budget.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on February 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM

We have exhausted deferment and now have to really dig in and pay…but it’s really, really hard to do that on our budget.

Mommypundit on February 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM

Volcker calls Larry Summers a girl with a deficient brain for numbers. Lead, follow or go do the ironing! We need to save the country for Obama!

Mr. Joe on February 5, 2009 at 11:19 AM

I remember the College Republicans in the 1970s pushing for college tuition tax credits. Neither Republican nor Democratic Congresses or Administrations would even think about that as a policy option. Too bad.

As long ago as 1992, I worked with a young attorney whose student loan payments were over $900 a month. I can’t imagine what they are now. It’s a racket.

rockmom on February 5, 2009 at 11:19 AM

ernesto: what a maroon

kirkill on February 5, 2009 at 11:20 AM

It’s already happening. Last year, I was hired at a company that among other things did some student loans. Of course, this company has a sucky CEO who can’t manage worth a darn. But something happened–the government yanked something, access to some sort of governmental information, I think, and suddenly that part of the company was out of business. With millions in debt and suddenly no income to pay for it. I got laid off later that year as the company as a whole is just going under. So the bubble is popping already.

Anyone want to hire a conservative web designer? :D

Vanceone on February 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM

How about a student can only get more than 50% of max fed loan amount unless they have a major that requires a full year of calculus… and no federal student loans for grad students unless that have completed two years of calculus…

an added benefit would be to put some serious pressure on the public school system to improve its math curriculum…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:06 AM

No thanks.

I am an education grad student specializing in social studies. We are desperate for teachers but under your plan I wouldn’t have been eligible (and neither would most of my fellow ed majors) for student loans…which means none of us would have came back to grad school…which means we’d have even less teachers out there with masters degrees. I hate math, which is why I teach social studies. I’ve had a packed schedule since I was a freshman, so having to take calculus just to get loans would’ve been a giant waste of time. I’ll never touch calculus in my life and I’ll still be a good teacher. We’re already made to fill our schedules with the occasional pointless class.

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM

This article also presumes that the only goal in college is getting a job making more money.

TheBlueSite on February 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM

These bail-outs are getting perilously close to the point when ordinary working people will decide that they have had enough.

I’m real tired of hearing how everybody else gets gigantic financial concessions while I pay for it.

Of course, a one-person revolt will end up with me in jail.

But I know there are millions like me.
Maybe it is time for a big “no more bailout rally” in DC???
March from the capitol down to the White House….

izoneguy on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

How about “a day-without-a-taxpayer” rallies held all over the country. We can march in with our own flags, screaming and chanting “we can’t do it, no we can’t”, blocking traffic, shutting down businesses…etc.

It’ll be totally rad.

jbh45 on February 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM

The hyping of undergrad degrees is nothing compared to the hyping by law schools, who tell prospective students about the wonderful careers they will have, starting out with six-figure salaries and hefty bonuses. In reality, maybe 25% of law grads get these jobs in the best of times. Today it’s closer to 10%. Meanwhile, most recent law school grads are carrying 100-200K of debt and no way in hell to pay it off.

They aren’t purely innocent victims, but many would’ve thought twice if it hadn’t been so easy to borrow the dough from Uncle Sam.

BuzzCrutcher on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

So true. Unless you graduate in the top 10% from a top-10 law school, you are not going to make that six-figure salary and get that big corner office. My husband went to an obscure law school and was never able to get hired by a private firm. He has spent 15 years working in low-paid non profit and government jobs. Luckily we did not take on much debt for the education – but looking back on it now, he didn’t gain a thing by going to law school.

rockmom on February 5, 2009 at 11:26 AM

More dishonesty from ernesto.

People on HA do not disdain a good education. We disdain the fluffy pseudo-study masquerading as a true credential in order to milk more government funding and to further the World Workers Paradise type agenda.

Sir Napsalot on February 5, 2009 at 11:26 AM

I’ve hired a bunch of people in my current job, and I’ve done so working with a few other people who have done it much longer. The fact is- employers want workers with college degrees. The great majority of students could never afford a degree program at a community college, let alone a major private university.

Without stafford loans, pell grants, and the like- most kids would never be able to afford school, and they’d all get passed up for those rich kids whose parents paid their way out of pocket. As the system exists now, that is.

How you resolve the problem as it stands now, I’ve no idea, but I don’t think college is a scam in any way. With most high tech jobs, most of us would never get the chance to to even look at the equipment required to do the jobs, let alone a chance to learn how to use these tools without colleges giving us that instruction. If you have no experience, no one wants to hire you, if you have no education, you have no experience…but you can’t get the experience in most fields unless you have the education.

TheBlueSite on February 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM

Remove the degree from any consideration at a job, or allow citizens a first-priority, full ride through the university system.

Work with what citizens you have, not what people you desire.

sethstorm on February 5, 2009 at 11:27 AM

What i’m wrong? How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

If “higher education” did more to imbue knowledge and useful skills you might have an argument. If those with degrees were usually “educated” you might have an argument.

Except that I have a degree and have met plenty of people with alphabet soup after their name. And they’re useless. As much as many on the left or those in academia want to think that the right wing hates learning and knowledge, it simply isn’t true. What I believe most right wing folk disdain is faux intellectuals. People who substitute jargon and overblown vocabulary for true insight. They are the problem – the same snake-oil salesmen of byegone days, but under a different name. Their products are crappy degrees and brain-dead “consultants.” And they’re about as effective as their counterparts.

TheUnrepentantGeek on February 5, 2009 at 11:27 AM

Academia is the one place that does seem to need some regulation.

How about a student can only get more than 50% of max fed loan amount unless they have a major that requires a full year of calculus… and no federal student loans for grad students unless that have completed two years of calculus…

an added benefit would be to put some serious pressure on the public school system to improve its math curriculum…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:06 AM

You haven’t shown that “academia” needs regulation, but merely that you need to regulate “academia.” Did you use calculus to reach your conclusion? Do you use calculus to reach very many of your own most important decisions? When you tell me why I should accept a lopsided emphasis on calculus, will your proof be a calculation of that sort?

Did I need calculus to destroy this opinion? Of course not.

Kralizec on February 5, 2009 at 11:28 AM

What i’m wrong? How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

What we loathe are the highly mis-educated

Bring back universities which purposely induce 35% failure rates in the first 2 years…

Bring back a strong core curriculum to liberal arts colleges which is now reserved only for pre-med students

Focus on engineering and other quantitative sciences…

If you can’t handle the math, go to the local community college where you will actually learn something useful instead of getting indoctrinated in the culture of grievance…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:29 AM

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM

fewer, NOT less.
you can’t even get simple word usage right. how can you expect to be a teacher.

Xolom on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

MadisonConservative on February 5, 2009 at 11:16 AM

sociology???

im an engineer.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

My plumber and I had a long talk about the future of the trades. He said the average age of plumbers used to be in the 30’s but is now somewhere in the 50’s. He’s an ambitious guy and looking forward to rising income and greater opportunities for entrepreneurship as the shortages in the trades becomes pronounced.

Sitting through college with only future income as the motivator is short-sighted– and treats higher education as vo-tech. College is not for everybody and I’m not sure that it makes sense for some of my children. (And I say that as part of a family highly populated with MDs, PhDs, CPAs and engineers.)

obladioblada on February 5, 2009 at 11:31 AM

sociology???

im an engineer.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

I’m sure you are a “social engineer”. Your side of the fence loves that title.

MadisonConservative on February 5, 2009 at 11:31 AM

Yes. And those of us who work in the trenches at the public community colleges get nowhere near that. I have a PhD in genetics, and I teach microbiology for nursing/health science students as well as biotechnology classes. My pay (Indiana) for a 9-month contract (Fall and Spring semesters) = $34k. If I decide to teach the summer semester, I receive 1/3 of my contract.

FYI, since we are an open enrollment institution (got a pulse and you’re in), our tuition is not very expensive. We live on shoestring budgets every year. Our state wants us to cut 4% from our budget.

Dr.Cwac.Cwac on February 5, 2009 at 11:18 AM

Well, I am raising you to $85,000, where a good college professor belongs.
FYI CA. pays much more for community college, somewhere around $110,000 average…now it costs much more to live in Ca., but not that much more.
I have a friend that teaches nursing, they get around $80,000 for teaching three classes…not bad.
Retired from nursing, so this is the second career…
I am in NC, and the cost of living is great, but educators are paid terrible…but then, if you had a union that really helped “weed” out the bad, then I think your pay would be better.
We know as tax payers, that we are carrying at least 25% horrible teachers and administrators.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Bring back a strong core curriculum to liberal arts colleges which is now reserved only for pre-med students

I work in higher education, and I think you’re going to see a return to that pretty quickly. Limited budgets are forcing universities to re-examine much of the extraneous victim-mongering masquerading as scholarship.

Slublog on February 5, 2009 at 11:33 AM

Did I need calculus to destroy this opinion? Of course not.

Kralizec on February 5, 2009 at 11:28 AM

The logic that comes from it, yes.

sethstorm on February 5, 2009 at 11:34 AM

If you can’t handle the math, go to the local community college where you will actually learn something useful instead of getting indoctrinated in the culture of grievance…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:29 AM

What is with the math? I never took anything higher than a discrete math class in college yet I graduated with honors from a major university and have a 3.8 in graduate school. Should I have been banished to the local community college because I suck at math? I didn’t get indoctrinated in any way…every year I’m more conservative than the year before.

And as a teacher I can’t accept forceful failure on anyone. If you earn failure that’s fine, but how can you intentionally fail 35% whether they earned it or not?

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:34 AM

I work in academia too. We have a lot of students who can barely read and write, but the administration wants butts in the seats – hang the quality.

Ellen on February 5, 2009 at 11:36 AM

Crash, baby, crash!

petefrt on February 5, 2009 at 11:37 AM

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:22 AM

fewer, NOT less.
you can’t even get simple word usage right. how can you expect to be a teacher.

Xolom on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Really? Out all of that you pick on a a word choice? So I’m going to be a horrible teacher because I said less instead of fewer? Get a life.

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:37 AM

The hyping of undergrad degrees is nothing compared to the hyping by law schools, who tell prospective students about the wonderful careers they will have, starting out with six-figure salaries and hefty bonuses. In reality, maybe 25% of law grads get these jobs in the best of times. Today it’s closer to 10%. Meanwhile, most recent law school grads are carrying 100-200K of debt and no way in hell to pay it off.

They aren’t purely innocent victims, but many would’ve thought twice if it hadn’t been so easy to borrow the dough from Uncle Sam.

BuzzCrutcher on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

You’re absolutely correct. I attended law school when the cost was still pretty reasonable.

Beyond that, Masters of Laws (LL.M.) programs are another scam. I attended a year-long program about 10 years ago; it was very worthwhile. Nevertheless, my program, traditionally a 12-15 person program, ballooned to 25 people the year I attended. Why? Money.

The LL.M. programs are largely taught by adjuncts, so the schools pay them very little. In my program, the first semester is a traditioal semester of about six courses, while the second semester consisted of a series of one- or two-week modules taught by lawyers from other parts of the country. The school incurred some airfare and hotel accomodation, but not that much. In my year, adding 10 to 12 clearly unqualified students, at tuition of $21,000 a student, netted the law school dean $200,000 or $240,000. As I was told, the school was a little short in covering some renovation expenses.

For the students, it was a bad deal. Those who belonged got dragged down by the 10 or 12 student who, forgive me, had no business being admitted. And the unqualified students got stiffed for $21,000, plus the cost of living in a very expensive area of the country for a school year–not to mention the opportunity costs of putting their lives on hold for a school year and pursuing something for which they were better suited.

BuckeyeSam on February 5, 2009 at 11:37 AM

One of the reasons to make universities difficult, both financially and academically…is that it does take perseverance to get through.
One of the hallmarks of a good employee, perseverance, dedication, organization, being clever enough to find out how to pay for the tuition.
It is not just what you learned in the classroom, but how you survived the 5,6,7 years to make it through.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:38 AM

im an engineer.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Please tell us your field.

/Faulty logic and extra feelings, so we can avoid your product, if possible….

Sir Napsalot on February 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM

Did you use calculus to reach your conclusion? Do you use calculus to reach very many of your own most important decisions? When you tell me why I should accept a lopsided emphasis on calculus, will your proof be a calculation of that sort?

A real major in science, pre-med, engineering all require 3+ semesters of calculus, and preferable includes partial differential equations. Morons who believe they are “critical thinkers” and have no calculus, basically have zero capacity to solve problems. They can argue, but do not have the core capability to complete the full OODA loop. They do not have the quantitative and analytic skills to sift through data and thus are dangerous as they can present an aggressively argued case for something not based in any reality… Like a lawyer or a journalist…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM

fewer, NOT less.
you can’t even get simple word usage right. how can you expect to be a teacher.

Xolom on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

You didn’t use capital letters…and shouldn’t your last sentence have a question mark? I don’t know, I apparently don’t know how to speak or write English.

mountaineer for liberty on February 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM

sociology???

im an engineer.

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:30 AM

Ernesto, I worked in an oil refinery for years. I never went to college. One day I had to bring an engineer out in the field, “Meaning out of his Cubicle”, he did not have the faintest idea of what he was looking at. I had to explain to him what he did on his computer program, and how it would fit in the field. Does that mean all engineers are dumb? No I don’t believe so. I think there are dumb and smart people no matter if you went to college or not.

MDWNJ on February 5, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Morons who believe they are “critical thinkers” and have no calculus, basically have zero capacity to solve problems.

Huh. Who knew math geeks were so aggressive?

Slublog on February 5, 2009 at 11:41 AM

They aren’t purely innocent victims, but many would’ve thought twice if it hadn’t been so easy to borrow the dough from Uncle Sam.

BuzzCrutcher on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Almost correct…if you are a good student, dedicated, and pass the bar…you will pay for your loans.
Both of my kids are attorneys, both out of school just a few years…both passed the bar in multiple states, and worked for major firms (one a boutique,but influential)…they both now work for private firms, loans payed off (back to me thank you, with interest), and they make pretty good money.
Like anything in life, unless you work hard, train in other areas beside your specialty, are good citizens, and did I say work hard, are socialable, you will do fine.
Many law students just expect to make big bucks, or they go into the public sector and become gov employees.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:44 AM

No I don’t believe so. I think there are dumb and smart people no matter if you went to college or not.

MDWNJ on February 5, 2009 at 11:40 AM

But, the college trained engineer, who gets out and works in the field, learns your side, as well as the technical side…they are the ones who end up running the company.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:46 AM

The College Kids voted in record Numbers for the One. Imagine the boon though for the Fast Food Industry. Someone at the cash register, that can actually make change, and get it right but get’s into a philosophical discussion on just what kind of change you deserve..Obama Obama Obama LOL!

Dr Evil on February 5, 2009 at 11:46 AM

But anybody who has gotten a passing grade in statistics knows what’s wrong with this line of argument. A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. …

Right. Also, it may be a matter mainly of self-selection. The more productive/ambitious people are probably more likely to attend college in the first place, so that the correlation between college attendance and lifetime incomes is mainly a matter of self-selection?

petefrt on February 5, 2009 at 11:47 AM

But, the college trained engineer, who gets out and works in the field, learns your side, as well as the technical side…they are the ones who end up running the company.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:46 AM

Very true, but i believe that has to do more with ambition, than a college degree.

MDWNJ on February 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM

Crap. I work in academia.

rbj on February 5, 2009 at 11:03 AM

Same here. Tough medicine, isn’t it?
Heck, my position is only temporary to start with. I wonder what kind of real-world work I could get?

Count to 10 on February 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM

I’m chuckling at ernesto implying that “we hate education” here. I’m fairly certain the number of engineers, scientists, lawyers, etc. posting here would astound him.

But what do I know, my 3 years in grad school at MIT allowed me to live in Cambridge. And living in Cambridge takes the radiant glow of Harvard a wee bit.

(Editors Note: Harvard is a fine school, and 2 of my close friends have their Crimson robes, but the saying is true: “You can tell a Harvard man, but you can’t tell him anything.”)

Techie on February 5, 2009 at 11:50 AM

How many times does one have to lambast higher education in a sarah palin argument before it becomes clear that they loath the educated?

ernesto on February 5, 2009 at 11:14 AM

No, we only loath the elitism.

Besides, a college degree only gets you your first real job. After that, experience counts much more.

dominigan on February 5, 2009 at 11:51 AM

“takes off the radiant glow”

Techie on February 5, 2009 at 11:51 AM

Morons who believe they are “critical thinkers” and have no calculus, basically have zero capacity to solve problems.

And so when you went to buy a house you did what?
When you go to have a contract created, you asked the attorney whether he had calculus?
Or you have been falsely accused and you need a good litigator to figure out your best defense.
When you take your car in because it is running poorly…you ask the mechanic if he had calculus?
You (God forbid) have something medically wrong…you have a choice of doctors, a world renowned doctor, or a mathematician who just got his M.D….you would choose the math guy?
I think your post shows that knowing calculus doesn’t make one always good at decisions…

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:52 AM

What is with the math? I never took anything higher than a discrete math class in college yet I graduated with honors from a major university and have a 3.8 in graduate school.

I didn’t say you couldn’t go to a major university… but there should be an incentive, if you’re going to borrow fed money, to take on a more challenging major and field of study.

Real world example. If you are a highly talented musician as a teenager, and get into the Yale School of Music, this wouldn’t affect you by a single penny. Every student is that program gets an endowed scholarship.

What it would do is force Universities to change focus and alter priorities.

And frankly, as far as teachers go. No hiring of education majors except for K-4 and special ed. Let people with real world experience teach middle school and high school after they’ve decided to get out of the grind. People who are motivated at age 22 to pursue a career because it has summers off are not the one who should be teaching teenagers.

Harsh… you bet your a$$… but I went to a college where on the first day, they tell you to look at the person to the left of you and to the person to the right, and in two years, one of you aren’t going to be here…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:53 AM

in NC, State Laws now prohibit how many hours a Student can work outside of school and the employer has to keep up with their grades as well.

So if you go to school(high school) 6 hours, the max you can work after school is 2 hours. Plus you have to keep your GPA at a certain level. Think of all the kids from needy families this is effecting negatively.

Democrats run the State and Education is of course a big thing to them, especially here with the UNC system.

Law of Unintended consequences, is never taught in Schools of course

jp on February 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

Very true, but i believe that has to do more with ambition, than a college degree.

MDWNJ on February 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM

Exactly, it is the combination…ambition, technical skill, dedication, integrity, and good people skills.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

jbh45 on February 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM

Actually, I’m holding out for the Million Man (ARMED) March.

dominigan on February 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM

BuzzCrutcher on February 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM

Not only that, but some of the top-20%-30% recent law grads have found themselves in an even bigger pickle. I know a few who graduated, were courted by the big firms and got those six-figure salaries. Now, the big firms are (like everyone else) cutting back. Many of them won’t have that job in a few months, if they still have it now. And, in addition to the 80+K in loan debt, most went out and purchased very nice new homes and new cars confident that they were guaranteed to make even more money in the future. Oops.

exlibris on February 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM

jp on February 5, 2009 at 11:54 AM

And with all that “caring”, we sit at over 35% drop out rate…

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM

It’s a tough decision, whether or not to go into debt for a college education. We have a son who is a junior at a private Christian university in California. Tuition, books and fees are covered with scholarships and grants, which have increased every year. Room and board however are high and have resulted in loans of $18,000 so far.

He could have stayed within our state, but given the reputation and location of this school, we decided that it is worth it.

What causes trouble is that too many do not attain a degree and then default on the loans. It’s like buying a house. Until it is paid off, it belongs to the band or mortgage holder. But, paying it off is an investment for the future.

Jvette on February 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM

And so when you went to buy a house you did what?
When you go to have a contract created, you asked the attorney whether he had calculus?

The problem is that law schools are churning out 50% duds at this moment (look at capital hill)

Frankly I deal with lawyers every day, and there is a huge difference in quality, usually based on quality of undergraduate…

Law school (and business schools) garbage in = garbage out

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:56 AM

Count me in with Ernesto on this one. My loathing of the education system and the loan situation is not restricted to the creation of faux intellectuals.

It is also for the continuous lowering of the bar that must happen in the current system. Just like in the public school system, there is a pressure to have a certain percentage of those enrolled to pass and advance. It devalues the degree that many of us have.

I also have a thorn in my side about the career students out there who never see or contribute to the world outside a university. I’m sure there are saints in there who are truly following their vocation, but there are also those who just can’t cut it anywhere else. Some of these are faux intellectuals, but many are simply parasites. They may not have much to do with the loan situation, but they do make this right-wing nut a little more resentful of the system.

connertown on February 5, 2009 at 11:58 AM

you have a choice of doctors, a world renowned doctor, or a mathematician who just got his M.D….you would choose the math guy?

Guess what – calculus is a pre-requisite for med school… that’s how I came up with the theory…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:58 AM

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM

I’m actually going to call “b.s.” I am a fan of calculus, and think most people should take it, but to say that without calc you can’t think critically is moronic and illogical.

There are PLENTY of examples of brilliant people with all differing kinds of amazing ideas (and analysis, etc.) that never took one minute of calculus.

It may help you think critically, but it is not a prerequisite.

Abby Adams on February 5, 2009 at 11:58 AM

College degrees have become a dime a dozen. They used to give you a bit of an edge, but unless you have a specialized degree, don’t expect any big payoffs. If I had a child heading off to college, I think I would show him the last bill I paid to the plumber. If its earning power you are looking for, you don’t have to have a degree.

bopbottle on February 5, 2009 at 11:59 AM

Why should I have to pay my credit card debts or student loan?

I know. I’ll print my own money like the gob’ment and mail it to them. That’s what they’re doing right now, right?

madmonkphotog on February 5, 2009 at 11:59 AM

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:39 AM

What’s with the calculus fetish?

There are a number of “real majors” that don’t require calculus. Universities don’t just educate engineers and doctors, you know. While there is clearly educational fluff, I’d bet a number of people on this thread have never taken calculus and could clean your clock on “critical thinking.”

Full disclosure- started out as an engineering major, stunk up my higher math courses, went on to B.S. & graduate degree in other fields.

cs89 on February 5, 2009 at 12:00 PM

What it would do is force Universities to change focus and alter priorities.

And frankly, as far as teachers go. No hiring of education majors except for K-4 and special ed. Let people with real world experience teach middle school and high school after they’ve decided to get out of the grind. People who are motivated at age 22 to pursue a career because it has summers off are not the one who should be teaching teenagers.

Harsh… you bet your a$$… but I went to a college where on the first day, they tell you to look at the person to the left of you and to the person to the right, and in two years, one of you aren’t going to be here…

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:53 AM

Yesssss!!! Phreshone for Secretary of Education!

connertown on February 5, 2009 at 12:01 PM

phreshone on February 5, 2009 at 11:53 AM

I disagree…I think music, or art, is a great education. Especially music.
It isn’t so much the subject, it is the dedication and the discipline you learn.
Besides technical fields, most every other job is learned on the job.
A young relative, graduated from UCSD with a degree in history…and he had other achievements in music and extra-curricular..in essence he was “well” educated.
He was hired by a major software company, and became their front man for introducing new software…he made a fortune.
It is the old argument, when drafting for a football team…do you draft for the position, or do you draft the best athlete.

right2bright on February 5, 2009 at 12:02 PM

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