The obligatory “Hot Air’s revenue stream goes up in smoke” post; Update: PJM speaks
posted at 1:18 pm on January 31, 2009 by Allahpundit
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Starting tomorrow, you too can read HA for the low, low price of $99.95 per year.
No, just kidding. Or am I?
As you know, last September Pajamas Media began a new initiative in Internet television called Pajamas TV. When we started with our RNC coverage from Minneapolis, we noted that we would be in a Beta Phase through the first quarter of 2009. In the last few months we have strengthened the PJTV lineup with shows covering Media Bias, Education Bias, Middle East Update, Sharia and Jihad, Powerline Report, Ask Dr. Helen, Hugh News, Poliwood, Conservatism 2.0, Economy and Finance, National Security, and others.
As the end of the first quarter approaches and we near the production phase of Pajamas TV, we will continue to build our emphasis in this area. As a result we have decided to wind down the Pajamas Media Blogger and advertising network effective March 31, 2009. The PJM portal and the XPressBlogs will continue as is.
Thank god I have that pothole-filling job in the new Obama WPA to fall back on.
Seriously, we think we’ll be okay. I figured traffic would crater after the election, settling somewhere around 350-400K hits a day by the inauguration. Thanks to you, we’re considerably better positioned than that. Things will be tight after April, as they are for everyone, which is why we hope/expect we won’t have to come begging for donations. But, er, stay tuned. As for PJM, Ace said it best: It was a good deal, it kept a lot of righty bloggers going during the election, and now circumstances have changed. Business is business, red in tooth and claw. I just hope there’s a conservative entrepreneur out there willing to snap up some of the talent that’s now on the market. Are there any new sites around flush with cash and looking to establish a presence in the blogosphere that could use full-time bloggers and the built-in audiences that would come with them? Hmmm.
Exit question via Atlas Shrugs: That PJM-sponsored blogger’s row at CPAC is going to be a little awkward, huh?
Update: You’ll know we’re in dire straits financially when you notice that every last post is comment bait about Palin and atheism, instead of every other post the way it is now.
Update: Another idea. If the man of Steele is serious about expanding the party’s reach online, how about hiring someone to blog for the RNC?
Update: Roger Simon weighs in:
Actually that part of our business has been losing money from the beginning, so the people getting their quarterly checks from PJM were getting a form of stipend from us in the hopes that advertisers would start to cotton to blogs and we could possibly make a profit. Didn’t happen. No wonder those people are kicking and screaming now that they are off the dole. I might too. [What's their beef? I thought most of them were free marketeer libertarians or something.-ed. Go figure.]
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I kept visiting when comments were closed before. I loved it. But, I was soooooo happy to be able to comment.
Mommypundit on January 31, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Awesome
- The Cat
MirCat on January 31, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Like many others have already said, this is my first, and multiple stops each and every day. Would be a shame to see it go down.
With Rush plugging on a semi-regular basis, I’ve heard Hannity mention it on TV a time or two, the local guys in the afternoon in KC have used a post or two to get a topic going,(not to mention Ooberdouche), it seems that would only help traffic.
That said, I’m not crazy about the idea of subscription, but would be much more open to a fundraiser drive or such. That seems to have worked pretty well for Chris Muir.
JamesLee on January 31, 2009 at 3:05 PM
maybe that’s the solution, make people pay 2 cents to put in their 2 cents… they can open an account like google adwords and each comment deducts 2 cents.
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:06 PM
As I posted earlier
EIB Advertising Network
Rush is probably the only person who can generate the critical mass to get advertisers to the door, and he can ensure a continuing supply of first-rate show-prep – MM – make it so…
phreshone on January 31, 2009 at 3:07 PM
ok, the deadline for this is April? Count me in for anything I can do. Truly mean that. This is just the first day of this warning. We’ve go time to stop the madness.
JetBoy on January 31, 2009 at 3:08 PM
I wonder if Trolls will pay to abuse themselves!
This I gotta see!hahaha
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:09 PM
you know how to save hot air? tax cuts!*
*standard republican Plan A to any economic ailment (Plan B non-existent). usually followed by any/all of the following: “Reagan had it right in the 80’s”, “you just try to come take my gun!” and “damn illegals bleeding us dry, deport em all!
Noneya on January 31, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Posting that really left me feeling like a mean person, though I believe it’s true.
On the bright side, now you’re more than qualified as a career counselor! :-)
DarkCurrent on January 31, 2009 at 3:09 PM
I noticed that event the FReepathons are taking longer and longer to reach their goals. Right now FR is at only 2/3 of their goal of $80,000 for the quarter. That may seem good but in reality the ‘thons used to be at 100% in 3 weeks. Robinson bans people all the time, and it tends to go in cycles of purges. And it isn’t always done for simply bad language or trolling. Robinson doesn’t cater to disagreement very well. And you get into the problem of cliques and favorites, etc.
That said…it’s a much different style of forum from HA so I think a simple donation button and maybe a once a year ‘thon for say 2 weeks or a month would work better for this site.
Deanna on January 31, 2009 at 3:10 PM
The best idea of the day!
Amadeus on January 31, 2009 at 3:11 PM
I felt the same way about getting comment privileges – has been almost 3 years now.
I think that with the newspapers going under, economy contracting, and people having less money in general that you will see the news media, blogging and the like make a transformation of sorts that is mostly online.
In other words I think that you will see people paying for subscriptions to a news producer. This producer will be similar to a paper but will include access to various bloggers and entertainment types. The bundled aspect will appeal to consumers reluctant or unable to pay 30 dollars a month for 10 different sites to get their news and opinions.
Bradky on January 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM
I hereby pledge 10% of my tax cuts to HA!
(unfortunately under Obama and a Democrat Congress I estimate that will equal about -$20,000)
DarkCurrent on January 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM
huh? whaa? Er, huh?
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Can’t Hopey bail us out,that way I can
still bash Changey,and he would pay for
it!
No?ahem.
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:14 PM
AP, ban this trolling little sack of crap and I bet you traffic increases.
MadisonConservative on January 31, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Like many others, I have been visiting here since day one. I would pay what ever you would ask to keep Hot Air online.
Do the paypal “donate link” now. We were there for Michelle’s journey to Iraq and we are still here. Just ask.
And Michelle can do the same at her signature site, count me in.
Zorro on January 31, 2009 at 3:15 PM
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:15 PM
How much tax are you paying to troll here?
Jim Treacher on January 31, 2009 at 3:15 PM
It’s not the degree that matters. It’s the education. If you can construct a sentence free of grammatical and punctuation errors, you’re probably in the top 5% of Americans.
RedWinged Blackbird on January 31, 2009 at 3:16 PM
Same here…sort of. I’d prefer to voluntarily contribute instead of being forced…it’s the Republican in me.
I haven’t been the same since I discovered this site and I’d prefer not to go back. I’m on here more than any other site. Not being able to come here 20 times a day would force me to do school work…no thanks.
mountaineer for liberty on January 31, 2009 at 3:17 PM
You’re doing OK as long as you don’t have to live on the Sheehan Diet.
HotWeaver on January 31, 2009 at 3:17 PM
With taxcuts more company’s could afford advertising.
You got that right.
the_nile on January 31, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Exact same position. HotAir is life in class.
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:18 PM
The irony of the troll’s comment, of course, is that he’s actually right: a nice tax cut = greater discretionary income = more readers willing to spend income on HotAir.
Of course, you could always take the troll’s route and just hope for higher taxes and a bailout. In other words, spending other people’s money, and giving them no say in how its spent – Standard Liberal Plan A for any economic ailment (No Plan B).
I love liberals. They never, ever think through the logic of their positions.
Professor Blather on January 31, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Heh. The people that have read my comments here at HotAir know I’m in the top 5 percent. LOL!
terryannonline on January 31, 2009 at 3:20 PM
HAHA
mountaineer for liberty on January 31, 2009 at 3:20 PM
I would probably be willing to donate some reasonable amount for commenting privileges, but I would expect something in return. Something like an edit button.
Ars Moriendi on January 31, 2009 at 3:21 PM
;)
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Why not try a little “test marketing”? For example – It would take a little programing work to set up for and monitor, but why not try having 1 or 2 threads a day where anyone, registered or not, could comment?
KentAllard on January 31, 2009 at 3:21 PM
How much tax are you paying to troll here?
Jim Teacher on Jan 31,2009 at 3:15PM.
Jim Teacher: Like the Liberal seminar callers to Rush’s
Show,the trolls are probably paid by Sorro’s
to sh#t disturb the rightsphere blogs!:)
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Do not ban the perverts. Contrary=clicks.
On the other hand, why would anybody go to work and pay for the privilege of giving their efforts to the employer? Especially since all the efforts can be read for free.
I never paid a newspaper for writing a letter to the editor. What is different about this? (except no paper to dispose when done)
Now if this was a personal relationship, maybe. But it most closely resembles a menage a trois on crack AND steroids.
platypus on January 31, 2009 at 3:23 PM
If you know that “alot” is not a word, I think you’re in the top 1%.
MadisonConservative on January 31, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Sorry Jim,that Treacher!not Teacher.
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:24 PM
I pay $5 a month for daily email photos of Charlie at Daily Coyote. Could you send out a daily email that included something unavailable on the main site? Er, not pictures, obviously… but something?
Tanya on January 31, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Yeah I got complains but I dont force anyone to click on links.
Also political blogging by its nature is going to have a limited audience. You not going to get a large base to draw in too many purchases.
If you do get a site get subdomains and run other subjects like sports or entertainment. Might attract larger veiwership.
Of course my suggest is for Allah to become the official blogger for “The Veiw”. He could even give Rosie some madz bloggzer skilz.
William Amos on January 31, 2009 at 3:25 PM
but Jim is our Teacher… ;)
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:26 PM
Roger sounds pretty damn insulting if you ask me.
But HA will get the last laugh here because PJTV is a just plain stupid business model. I mean internet tv that you have to pay for which is only appealing to a market which will never pay for it.
Pretty stupid if you ask me. Especially since conservative blog traffic is bound to uptick in the same way that all conservative media will.
thecollegepolitico on January 31, 2009 at 3:27 PM
Start with your own. Let us know when your madness is gone.
platypus on January 31, 2009 at 3:27 PM
Look. I pay to read the Wall Street Journal online and I would pay to read this site – but not $99. $35 a year is reasonable and I suggest you break that into three month subscriptions. I’ve never been a real fan of advertising on websites and some content is absolutely worth the money. An added bonus would be that the cheap assed liberals would bail out of the premium content sections and we could enjoy troll free discussions of curent events.
BrideOfRove on January 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. (”Language of the heart” gives me the willies; there’s a reason I don’t watch Lifetime.) My opinion is that bloggers like Ed are a dime a dozen. I skip more of his posts than I read, since I know generally what they will contain: nitpicky nonsense and/or blind cheerleading and/or irrational optimism, frequently unfettered by objective analysis. Every now and then he surprises me with a good post, so I know he’s capable of better; perhaps it’s the quantity that’s affecting quality.
By contrast, Allahpundit is unique: sharp wit, an effective “nonsense filter”, excellent analytical skills, and objective enough to call it like it is.
If and when HotAir costs must be cut, I suggest to Michelle that she cut Ed and leave AP alone. Ed would then be free to blog for the RNC; he’s certainly well qualified (ahem).
As for your business advice . . . um . . . well . . . uh, let’s start here: Do you know any comparable website that has managed to survive six months with that business model? Didn’t think so, because there aren’t any. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re a competent business owner, but you don’t know nuthin’ about the Intertubes.
Splashman on January 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM
exactly
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:29 PM
That’s the only type I like!
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:29 PM
Compared to Rosie’s writing skills, Allahpundit is a genius.
terryannonline on January 31, 2009 at 3:30 PM
I currently subscribe to a Christian newsletter. I contribute $10/month via Paypal. The owner has some of the site/forums open to all, but others are open only to regular contributors. There is no set limit to the amount you give. My $10.00 is arbitrary. He’s not getting rich, but he is there. Only problem is that when the Bible is declared “hate speech” by the Marxists in power, I guess my source will need to somehow go offshore.
oldleprechaun on January 31, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Well, how do the freepers manage to keep things going over there? They put out for donations. I’d donate. It’s too important. to let go. Either donate and vent here or start beating my wife and kicking my dog again.
Just kidding. I’d never kick a dog. . Seriously,, I don’t even have a dog.
JellyToast on January 31, 2009 at 3:30 PM
ouch… I think I got a sun burn from that one…
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:31 PM
What no government bailout like the MY Times needs ?
William Amos on January 31, 2009 at 3:33 PM
You wouldn’t pay for pictures? :(
Knock it off, please. The last thing I want in this thread are attacks on Ed (or me).
Allahpundit on January 31, 2009 at 3:33 PM
Michelle Obama’s fashion designer?
Cheshire Cat on January 31, 2009 at 3:35 PM
Indeed. And you’re entitled to your long, long, long, entirely empty of thought opinion.
Want my succinct opinion? Here you go: you’re kind of a prick, aren’t you?
Professor Blather on January 31, 2009 at 3:35 PM
But, unless you plucked it out of the trash can, platypus, you DID pay for the newspaper . . .
I don’t think charging for commenting is a particularly good idea, but charging for access, no problem.
califcon on January 31, 2009 at 3:36 PM
oh I just spit on monitor… lmao
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:36 PM
so how exactly is PJTV going to advertise if they don’t advertise?
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:37 PM
If I had to donate, I would but would have to be a small amount. This site is the best!
sheebe on January 31, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Me too, but things really went downhill after they let people like me in.
capitalist piglet on January 31, 2009 at 3:39 PM
awww how sweet. where else but hot air can we gays find this kind of “compassionate conservatism”?
Noneya on January 31, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Wow, that PJM response reads to me like a slap on the face. I mean telling people they are in effect laid off and on their own is bad enough, but rather than do damage control for PJM or show some sympathy he chooses to attack. Couple this with the way the initial message was delivered? That’s not going to win them converts from the blogs to the TV venture.
It also sounds like they were expecting companies to come to them. Did they have a sales team or at least a person to generate customers for Ads? Ya know like calling ad agencies or companies directly? You have to promote anything. Can’t just expect them to throw money at you. You have to ask for it.
- The Cat
MirCat on January 31, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Really good question.
Allahpundit on January 31, 2009 at 3:43 PM
So,after all these years,what yer sayin is,that
the U.S.S Hot Air,needs to be rearmed,refueled,
or it might not sail the verbal political waves
of zee net!
Alrighty then,the ship needs to be re-furbished,
and after the political hell that AllahPudit and
Ed has put it through,no wonder,and I’m kidding!Hehe.
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Times are tuff but the cream will rise to the top. I’ve been a daily reader of HA for a couple/three years now because of the variety of stories. (that and I used to shove the Icebowl and his loser Cryboys down Preston’s throat)
Having a fellow East Dakotan writing here also helps a great deal. This isn’t fly-over country as a lot of coasters would like you to believe, and a lot of what goes on here helps mold the country. (or is that, gets the country moldy?)
Anyway, thinning the heard can be a good thing and HA will be rewarded for sticking in there.
oakpack on January 31, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Totally agreed.
What a dick post!
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:45 PM
I love Ed’s posts, and Allah’s, for pretty much opposite reasons. This site is made better by both their contributions, period. And I don’t know how I’d make it the next four years without them – so I’m willing to pay if that’s what it takes for this place to survive.
capitalist piglet on January 31, 2009 at 3:45 PM
+1
For myself, despite spending the most part of my waking hours on HA and Ace, PJM just never really appealed to me and I’ve spent virtually no time there. Sounds like they were looking for a big boost from our intrepid bloggers and are now indulging themselves in a little uncalled-for lashing out.
califcon on January 31, 2009 at 3:47 PM
capitalist piglet on January 31, 2009 at 3:45 PM
the only thing Hotair.com is missing is a democrat blogger. of course I don’t know any that I respect, but there has to be some democrat out there that is respectable… oh yeah there’s this guy. but I think he already has a job, although I suspect he’ll get “disappeared” real soon.
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:48 PM
We already see bad news in the economy and now this. Can’t we stop the flow of bad news?
I hope you guys make it through intact.
mycowardice on January 31, 2009 at 3:49 PM
This is true. I’ve only gone over there from the ADs placed on Hotair. Thing is, I was never hooked. To be honest, I like what Ed doesn’t visual media wise than anything over on PJTV. I’m not trying to knock it, it’s just then need someone who knows business to actually manage things. News reporters wouldn’t be anything with out the sales team and the guy smoking the cigar that yells from his office.
- The Cat
P.S. This is a bad move. Even though it is losing money . . .it’s a loss leader.
Bloggers will do other things. If the blogs go the whole thing crashes.
This is like closing the Kiosks. That really worked out for them. (watches stock drop)
MirCat on January 31, 2009 at 3:51 PM
I don’t know if everyone realizes this, but I believe that PJTV contracted these blogs to give up their top 3 ad spots to PJTV only… and may have even restricted the other ads they could run to be part of the deal.
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Totally agree. What a prick!
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Splashman on January 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Wow, dude, I feel your pain. Go out and breath some fresh air before Obama taxes us for each breath.
BTW: Ed ran a very successful blog site and attracted some very special people; was used as a daily information source by the likes of Rush Limbaugh. What would be your accomplishments in the “intertube” business?
Just asking…
Keemo on January 31, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Dell’s Kiosks that is
MirCat on January 31, 2009 at 3:55 PM
missing a democrat blogger.
Kaptain Amerika on Jan 31,2009 at 3:48PM.
Kaptain Amerika:That smacks of Hope and Change!
Piff,a Liberal Democrat Operative roaming the decks of
Hot Air,have you lost your mind man,
and I’m kidding you,haha!:)
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Thank YOU. Heard Rush mention Ed and HotAir few weeks ago.
They have different styles, and they complement each other. They are both very good at what they do in very different ways.
D1ckless Wonder, I mean SplashMan can trash Ed all he wants, but there is a reason HotAir is at the top. It is because of AP and Ed.
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:56 PM
I have seen Salon advertising on TV websites. So maybe Allah can make some hot Air ads ?
William Amos on January 31, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Dear Allah: I had no idea you had a blog before this one–it hadn’t occurred to me to wonder–until somebody mentioned it above. So I Googled “Allah is in the House” and came across what I assume is an old url of yours. I had to chuckle when I saw that it was taken up with ads for “mail-order brides”, “Jewish singles”, “Russian wife” and “older woman personals”.
(By the way, my own hot Dutch wife thinks you’re a very eligible bachelor. She’s a pretty standard European center-left gal (their default mode, though she’s becoming more moderate), and she always enjoys links I send her to yours and Ed’s posts. Occasionally we’ll be talking politics and she’ll say “I wonder what the Allahpundit would say about that.” I think she once even called you “dreamy”.)
Tzetzes on January 31, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Rename site to Bloggers Gone Wild and sell videos.
faraway on January 31, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Beta Male wins again!
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 3:59 PM
Allah, contact Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and anyone else that uses your blog for content. Get them to buy adds. I mean you indirectly work for them anyway. You cut down on their staff’s research time and maybe even on the staff they need to employ. If Hotair pops, it may hurt them.
Also, it’s not just that you look up things so they don’t have to, but also that you know what the public wants.
- The Cat
MirCat on January 31, 2009 at 3:59 PM
You know why I mostly am starting to feel real hate, and yes I mean hate for Liberals. Scratch, liberals, you guys don’t deserve to be capitalized. You come here and throw out a conciliatory message here while you’re running an in your face, I told you so comparison of Hot Air to Air America?
Geez liberals are a piece of work. I’d ban you for life if I had my way.
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 3:55 PM
I like the rounded debate of the whole thing. I would like to see more debate between the actual bloggers here. Ed is as Republican as you can be in my mind, AP is a conservative, but I feel he’s more of a Libertarian, (just my opinion) there used to be Democrats that had some values and respectability, of course that was long before I graced this planet. but try as I will I cannot think of any current ones… can someone help me? name a respectable Democrat?
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM
Where do I volunteer?
mycowardice on January 31, 2009 at 4:01 PM
I can honestly tell you I have had Rush and Fox take content from my website (admittedly I sent it to Allah and hotair first) with no mention of where it came from outside of Allah and Ed giving me credit which was very cool of them to do that)
My problem right now is the reverse of Allah Im working 6 days a week and have only limited internet access at work which limits what I can and cant do right now.
William Amos on January 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Did you really read my post? Because it says that we shouldn’t destroy the message simply because the business model is not perfect.
One a side note, I can’t believe PJTV decided to fund JTP in Israel over blogs such as this one.
mycowardice on January 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Hey, look at the bright side: with so many here in lock-step with Begala and the other Rush-hating, Palin-hating moonbats, maybe DKos will step up and fund the operation, just for laughs…
Jaibones on January 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM
I’m only 25 so for as long as I’ve been paying attention (7, 8 years?) Democrats have been tool bags. Good luck.
mountaineer for liberty on January 31, 2009 at 4:05 PM
There were 11 of them who voted against the Generational Theft Act the other day. I salute them! Not sure I want ‘em blogging here, though . . . as far as I’m concerned, this blog is just about perfect as is.
califcon on January 31, 2009 at 4:06 PM
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM
would you do me a huge favor and stop deriding the word “liberal” by using it to describe democrats? Liberal comes from the word Liberty and does not deserve to be associated with democrats. may I suggest a few alternatives?
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 4:06 PM
Imagine it’s spring of 2011 and there’s no HA anymore.
Get a “Donate here” button up now please.
DarkCurrent on January 31, 2009 at 4:07 PM
LOL
blatantblue on January 31, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Buy Danish on January 31, 2009 at 4:07 PM
BWAAAAAAhahahahaha!
Apparently you haven’t been reading HotAir for the past few days. If anything, Rush will be laughing his butt off.
Jaibones on January 31, 2009 at 4:08 PM
name a respectable Democrat.
Kaptain Amerika on Jan 31,2009 at 4:00PM.
Kaptain Amerika:Respectable eh!
The only one’s I can think of is,Zell Miller,or Joe Leiberman!
But,I think Joe,is still under da bus!
canopfor on January 31, 2009 at 4:08 PM
I defer to your lexiconic sensibilities.
May I still hate them?
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Amen.
jaime on January 31, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Zell Miller does Rock
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 4:10 PM
I was only 9 when Bush lost to Clinton and I remember watching all the results come in and crying when Bush lost. I knew what was up even then.
mountaineer for liberty on January 31, 2009 at 4:10 PM
What did he say in the last couple of days that would make you think that?
hawkdriver on January 31, 2009 at 4:10 PM
permission to hate granted, as you were soldier!
Kaptain Amerika on January 31, 2009 at 4:11 PM
Does that mean the word conservative includes the word “hate”?
mycowardice on January 31, 2009 at 4:11 PM
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