Israeli rabbinate severs ties with Vatican over Holocaust-denying bishop

posted at 5:00 pm on January 28, 2009 by Allahpundit

Or rather, ex-bishop: It’s Richard Williamson, who was excommunicated 20 years ago when he broke away to be ordained in a traditionalist Catholic sect, the Society of St. Pius X. Now the Pope’s un-excommunicated him and three others as a goodwill gesture aimed at returning the Society’s 150,000 members to the flock. The only problem? Williamson’s a hardcore whackjob. This isn’t the first traditionalist gesture Benedict’s made that’s touched a nerve among Jews, either. Evidently Israel’s chief rabbinate has finally had enough:

The chief rabbinate announced it was severing ties indefinitely, sending a letter to the Holy See expressing “sorrow and pain” at the decision…

The letter from the chief rabbinate said: “It will be very difficult for the chief rabbinate of Israel to continue its dialogue with the Vatican as before,” unless Bishop Williamson recanted his “deplorable statements.”

Underlining its anger, the Jewish body also cancelled a meeting with the Vatican scheduled for March.

In his first public comments on the issue, Pope Benedict attempted to soothe relations with Jews by calling the Shoah, or Holocaust, “a warning to everyone against oblivion, denials or reductionism.”

Addressing thousands of pilgrims at his weekly audience at the Vatican, he said: “As I renew my full and indisputable solidarity with our brothers, I wish that the memory of the Shoah will prompt humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of evil when it conquers the hearts of men.”

Elie Wiesel lowered the boom on him, too. As much as it pains me to defend, even obliquely, a Holocaust denier, what’s the rabbinate’s problem with the Vatican here, exactly? Benedict’s been clear enough that neither he nor the Church endorse Williamson’s views, and so far as I know, being a crackpot isn’t itself independent grounds for excommunication. Nor should it be, practically speaking: Once you start bouncing people from the congregation for their politics (or stupidity), you’re on a slippery slope. The Pope’s reluctant to do that even with legislators who support abortion. Exit question: Why not demand that he excommunicate the whole Gibson family while they’re at it?


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As a Catholic it pains me to see this ass clown wearing a bishop’s clothing. I’d love to really understand what is Benedict’s reasoning here??

worlok on January 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM

MB4 on January 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM

I see what you’re saying.

Jim Treacher on January 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 6:14 PM

No, Spinoza. We were talking about Jewish excommunication.

progressoverpeace on January 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM

“I am a determinist. I do not believe in free will. Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine. In that respect I am not a Jew.”
- Albert Eienstein

Is this Spinoza’s “God”? “I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but I admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things.”

Do you believe in immortality? “No. And one life is enough for me.”
- Albert Einstein

His [Spinoza's and Einstein's] belief in causal determinism was incompatible with the concept of human free will. Jewish as well as Christian theologians have generally believed that people are responsible for their actions. They are even free to choose, as happens in the Bible, to disobey God’s commandments, despite the fact that this seems to conflict with a belief that God is all knowing and all powerful.

Einstein, on the other hand, believed–as did Spinoza–that a person’s actions were just as determined as that of a billiard ball, planet or star. “Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions,” Einstein declared in a statement to a Spinoza Society in 1932.

It was a concept he drew also from his reading of Schopenhauer. “Everybody acts not only under external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity,” he wrote in his famous credo. “Schopenhauer’s saying, ‘A man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills,’ has been a real inspiration to me since my youth; it has been a continual consolation in the face of life’s hardships, my own and others’, and an unfailing wellspring of tolerance.”
- multiple sources

MB4 on January 28, 2009 at 6:33 PM

oh heck, Jews do excommunication. The haredi do it with reasonable frequency. Some non-haredi congregations have done it when a member does something particularly heinous (there was a famous case of an Argentinian brothel owner) The thing is that there are lots of Jewish groups: in this day and age its just about impossible to get most Jews to agree that any individual Jew should be excommunicated, and if we all did agree, then its likely that the Jew in question wouldn’t really care anyways, so its pointless.

HiHo on January 28, 2009 at 6:37 PM

If I am to claim and preserve as my right to say what I believe, how can I deny it to others?
- Somebody or other

MB4 on January 28, 2009 at 6:40 PM

I’d love to really understand what is Benedict’s reasoning here??

worlok on January 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM

It really is about the efforts to reconcile differences with the SSPX and I would guess the Pope was putting the general benefit of the Church first as you would expect him to.

Connie on January 28, 2009 at 6:46 PM

what’s the rabbinate’s problem with the Vatican here, exactly

perhaps the problem is that the bishop never recanted his views, before he got accepted back; so, if the church keeps filling its ranks with these kinds of BISHOPS, who recite the newly resurrected Tridentine Mass, what exactly can we expect from the flock in the future ?

runner on January 28, 2009 at 6:47 PM

perhaps the problem is that the bishop never recanted his views, before he got accepted back; so, if the church keeps filling its ranks with these kinds of BISHOPS, who recite the newly resurrected Tridentine Mass, what exactly can we expect from the flock in the future ?

runner on January 28, 2009 at 6:47 PM

Zombies?

Sorry, I just don’t follow your logic here. This was ONE bishop who is being disciplined. Your implication is that this will become a trend and Latin Rite masses will be sprouting Holocaust deniers. I wholeheartedly disagree.

darii on January 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

Why are we moving backwards so fast in so many directions?

Dr Evil on January 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

Here’s where I’m missing the point.

Catholic Church un-excommunicates known Holocaust denier. Argument for many people here goes: So what? Catholic church can do what it wants.

Main Israeli Rabbinate says, fine, do it, but screw you, we’re breaking off relations with the Vatican now.

Many people here go: Hey! You can’t object to what the Church is doing! It’s not your church!

Am I clear on the basics here? Because I’m seeing one big giant hypocrite pie here.

Meryl Yourish on January 28, 2009 at 7:04 PM

darii on January 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

you have a right to disagree with me

runner on January 28, 2009 at 7:04 PM

Tacit approval?????? That sure seems to clash with this gag order on Williamson and this statement denouncing Williamson.
darii on January 28, 2009 at 5:27 PM

Ok, fair enough, but unless they strip a practicing priest who denies the Holocaust, any denounciations amount to a wink-wink to those who follow this evil kook.

Western_Civ on January 28, 2009 at 7:06 PM

Why are we moving backwards so fast in so many directions?

Dr Evil on January 28, 2009 at 7:02 PM

If we do not change direction we may directly end up going in the direction that we are directing ourselves to.

Cheshire Cat on January 28, 2009 at 7:08 PM

The word you are looking for here Alla is “principle”

Don’t worry, we understand that the word is foreign to you and apparently the Vatican. I used to wonder that Catholicism was last valid bigotry, but after the actions of the last couple days? Not so much.

And just so the concept of the word might be a bit clearer…….

Principle : guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct

Jim708 on January 28, 2009 at 7:20 PM

. As much as it pains me to defend, even obliquely, a Holocaust denier, what’s the rabbinate’s problem with the Vatican here, exactly? Benedict’s been clear enough that neither he nor the Church endorse Williamson’s views, and so far as I know, being a crackpot isn’t itself independent grounds for excommunication.

The slippery slope I see is rewarding nut jobs(holocaust deniers) by allowing them back in. I can not relate exactly with the rabbi, as I’m not Jewish, however, sticking to your principles on an issue like that one I can totally relate to. How much influence does this bishop have over others who he preaches this lie to? I just don’t think you should reward bad behavior.

4shoes on January 28, 2009 at 7:31 PM

One, his ability to practice as a priest is limited.

Two, he is not a Bishop in the Catholic Church.

Three, you can excommunicate someone for being a heretic but not for being an a$$hole.

Four, he and others were excommunicated for reasons the Church no longer thinks is valid. Also,they had a right to a trial on the issue but were denied it. Should the Church not correct it’s error of canonical law?

Five,if you think a holocaust denier priest is bad, a holocaust denier Jew/rabbi is a 1000x worse.The big hypocrite pie is that the Rabbinate is refusing to deal with its own holocaust deniers and instead is telling the Church what to do. The Rabbinate should clean its own house first.

Blake on January 28, 2009 at 7:41 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure the Gibsons aren’t Roman Catholics. Mel’s church does mass the way it was before Vatican II. I don’t think the Pope CAN excommunicate them, as they don’t recognize him.

malan89 on January 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM

The rabbi is about as wrong as he can be here. He is hitting what he doesn’t understand.

The breakaway group that this bishop is a part of has been an issue for two decades. If the pope had denounced him before the excommunication was lifted then the St. Pius X society would have likely hesitated.

However once the excommunication was lifted the pressure was on. The Vatican denounced the statement, followed by first by the society and culminating with a gag order from the society. Benedict was crazy like a fox here.

Less than 24 hours later the Rabbi makes a move that does its best to undermine the statements. Now the society and the Vatican’s denunciations and sanctions aren’t the story the Rabbi is. Dumb move.

petertheslow on January 28, 2009 at 8:01 PM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure the Gibsons aren’t Roman Catholics. Mel’s church does mass the way it was before Vatican II. I don’t think the Pope CAN excommunicate them, as they don’t recognize him.

malan89 on January 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM

You’re partially right. Mel’s church is sedevacantist, which means they deny Benedict is the pope. Their status has nothing to do with the rite of Mass.

darii on January 28, 2009 at 8:04 PM

American Catholics,like all other Americans,have been great friends to Jewish people. Jews should be grateful for the haven they’ve found here.

As for the nutty in and out bishop, I’ll trust the Pope and the church with deciding how best to handle it. No missiles have been fired into Israel from Catholics, or by any other religious people, except from the ROP.

JiangxiDad on January 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM

Those of you Catholic bashers need to get a grip and shut up. The lifting of the excommunications of the four SSPX bishops is an internal Church matter, period, and only one of these four bishops has made these comments. The rabbinate has no right to dictate to Holy Mother Church about anything.

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 6:04 PM

Right on! However, the bishop is a nutjob.

Sapwolf on January 28, 2009 at 8:14 PM

Israel’s chief rabbinate also doesn’t like conservative or reform Judaism either — they don’t recognize practitioners as Jews.

Most Jews in the United States (the non-orthodox) don’t have an embassy, so they can’t be formally dissed as the Church has just been — just denied the Right of Return to which all Jews are entitled, unless they get the approval of one of a handful of orthodox rabbis here in the United States.

Personally, as a Catholic I could give a rat’s behind for what the chief rabbinate thinks in this matter, given that they are so extreme that they would deny their own people.

As for the Holocaust:

The Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, said emphatically that the Vatican did not share Bishop Williamson’s views, but that it was a completely separate issue from the lifting of the excommunication.

“Saying a person is not excommunicated is not the same as saying one shares all his ideas or statements,” Father Lombardi said.

unclesmrgol on January 28, 2009 at 8:30 PM

.

I must say, the video I end with in my blog, “Priestly Hate,” is the clincher for humor added to this seriously scary video. I think you will be pleased with the parody.

.

papa_giorgio on January 28, 2009 at 8:31 PM

There was not a way to lift the ban on the entire SSPX without including “Bishop” Nuthatch, and stay within the rules and Canon laws by which the Catholic Church runs.

Should thousands of otherwise good Catholics have to live under excommunication because of one guy? Now that “Bishop”Bunghole is allegedly a Catholic in good standing…..he’s under Benedict’s authority now. He either shuts his mouth when Benedict tells him to, and becomes a good widdle boy—–or they will find a way to bounce his butt out without taking good Catholics with him.

Sekhmet on January 28, 2009 at 8:40 PM

Israel’s chief rabbinate also doesn’t like conservative or reform Judaism either — they don’t recognize practitioners as Jews.

Most Jews in the United States (the non-orthodox) don’t have an embassy, so they can’t be formally dissed as the Church has just been — just denied the Right of Return to which all Jews are entitled, unless they get the approval of one of a handful of orthodox rabbis here in the United States.

Personally, as a Catholic I could give a rat’s behind for what the chief rabbinate thinks in this matter, given that they are so extreme that they would deny their own people.

As a non-Orthodox Jew, I don’t think the above is accurate. I’m no fan of the Official rabbinate in Israel. In fact, I have a tendency to rant against them. But in this case, I think that they speak for all Jews, including those in the Reformed, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Movements. No Jew has any reason to think well of Pope after this, and with any luck we’ll get more opposition to the Pope than to Hamas. (It’s rather sad that 6% of the Jews in Israel opposed the Gaza operation and don’t seem to understand Hamas for the threat it is. It’s even sadder how many Jews in America opposed the Gaza operation.)

thuja on January 28, 2009 at 9:14 PM

Should thousands of otherwise good Catholics have to live under excommunication because of one guy? Now that “Bishop”Bunghole is allegedly a Catholic in good standing…..he’s under Benedict’s authority now. He either shuts his mouth when Benedict tells him to, and becomes a good widdle boy—–or they will find a way to bounce his butt out without taking good Catholics with him.

Sekhmet on January 28, 2009 at 8:40 PM

Do Catholics really think like this? If so, the Catholic Church is a sicker institution than I thought. Well, not really, I’ve actually always considered it just the tiniest of improvements over Islam.

thuja on January 28, 2009 at 9:16 PM

It is still an internal Church matter, and His Holiness’ first priority is Holy Mother Church, not inter religious dialogue. He wants to restore those who haqve been alienated from the main body of the Church, and he is doing it correctly. The rabbinate needs to grow up and mind its own business.

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 9:17 PM

No Jew has any reason to think well of Pope after this, and with any luck we’ll get more opposition to the Pope than to Hamas.

The Pope was un-excommunicating the bishop for heretical Catholic doctrine. The excommunication and reversal had nothing at all to do with the Shoah.

Why would you want more opposition to the Pope than Hamas? How many rockets has the Church fired into Israel? how many suicide bombers?

Holocaust deniers do not have a monopoly on bigotry.

darclon on January 28, 2009 at 9:19 PM

No Jew has any reason to think well of Pope after this, and with any luck we’ll get more opposition to the Pope than to Hamas.

The Pope was un-excommunicating the bishop for heretical Catholic doctrine. The excommunication and reversal had nothing at all to do with the Shoah.

Why would you want more opposition to the Pope than Hamas? How many rockets has the Church fired into Israel? how many suicide bombers?

Holocaust deniers do not have a monopoly on bigotry.

darclon on January 28, 2009 at 9:19 PM

The Catholic Church is responsible for millions of Jewish deaths for the last 1700 years or so, and spread the values that Hitler realized in the Holocaust. I believe it’s a heinous error that we talked to the Pope at all.

thuja on January 28, 2009 at 9:23 PM

The Catholic Church is responsible for millions of Jewish deaths for the last 1700 years or so, and spread the values that Hitler realized in the Holocaust. thuja on January 28, 2009 at 9:23 PM

Bullshit.

Millions? are you serious? Nazis were Catholic?

What Kool-aid are you guzzling?

darclon on January 28, 2009 at 9:30 PM

The Vatican knows what what the implications are of having an ongoing schism within the church. It’s sad that Jewish clerics are being so hysterical about this.

Elie Weisel… the guy who justified terrorism as long as it was for the birth of a nation. I wonder how he feels about it now. Oh yeah… it’s bad now.

lexhamfox on January 28, 2009 at 9:42 PM

darclon, thuja is referring to the canard about the Inquisition, etc. The Inquisition, which existed in Spain for over 350 years, did NOT have authority over Jews. The Holy Office only had authority over Catholics. The system was abused by those who wanted their enemies dead, and the Prods helped spread the calumny of the thousands of Jews being killed by the Church. IN fact approximately 350 per year were executed. The records of all of the trials from that period of history have been released and studied by scholars. (The Church, being the world’s first bureaucracy, kept meticulous records of the inte3rrogations and trials)The records are in medieval spanish, and are, i recall, housed in Spain.

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 9:43 PM

The Jews in Spain did not do very well. Most of them were expelled or forced to renounce their faith and convert. After forced conversion they were often prosecuted so the church and state could seize property.

The church was the first bureaucracy??? Are kidding me? Go visit a museum. There were loads of them before.

lexhamfox on January 28, 2009 at 9:48 PM

Israel’s chief rabbinate also doesn’t like conservative or reform Judaism either — they don’t recognize practitioners as Jews.

Most Jews in the United States (the non-orthodox) don’t have an embassy, so they can’t be formally dissed as the Church has just been — just denied the Right of Return to which all Jews are entitled, unless they get the approval of one of a handful of orthodox rabbis here in the United States.

This is absolute crap. As a Catholic, you should perhaps read up on Jews before making statements like this.

Meryl Yourish on January 28, 2009 at 10:20 PM

No, Meryl is right.

This person, in the eyes of the church, can still stand in the place of Christ before a congregation. The Rabbinate is reacting appropriately and within its rights. No one can dictate to the Catholic church, it is true, but if this beast isn’t defrocked, we don’t have to accept it either. The hierarchy of the Catholic church can go jump in a lake and breathe deep: doesn’t matter how many times they say “He doesn’t speak for us.” We do not have to accept this, and I will not. Three cheers for the Rabbinate, this time round.

HiHo on January 28, 2009 at 10:30 PM

Spinoza was excommunicated, whatever that meant at the time. I’ve never heard of another case.

But, you’re generally correct. Jews don’t have any central authority, so it kills most of the fun of excommunicating someone.

progressoverpeace on January 28, 2009 at 5:42 PM

I always found it ironic that the precepts of Christianity started at a time when Jews had a definite central authority, as a means of, basically….decentralizing that authority (in part).

And now, Jews have no central authority, and the Catholic Church (and others) definitely have a central authority. =)

Summer on January 28, 2009 at 11:25 PM

It is still an internal Church matter, and His Holiness’ first priority is Holy Mother Church, not inter religious dialogue. He wants to restore those who haqve been alienated from the main body of the Church, and he is doing it correctly. The rabbinate needs to grow up and mind its own business.

trainwife1962 on January 28, 2009 at 9:17 PM

So, what you’re saying is that the Rabbinate has no right to deal with a matter by breaking of ties with an institution which does something they disagree with?

I’m not exactly sure how you come to that conclusion. The Rabbinate has every right to say “Okay, that’s your thing, but we disagree so we’re no longer on talking terms”. Is this not a fundamental right?

Or do you think that Rabbinate is required not to actually say anything and should be denied the freedom of speech you so generously accord the Catholic Church?

Summer on January 28, 2009 at 11:48 PM

So, what you’re saying is that the Rabbinate has no right to deal with a matter by breaking of ties with an institution which does something they disagree with?

I’m not exactly sure how you come to that conclusion. The Rabbinate has every right to say “Okay, that’s your thing, but we disagree so we’re no longer on talking terms”. Is this not a fundamental right?

Or do you think that Rabbinate is required not to actually say anything and should be denied the freedom of speech you so generously accord the Catholic Church?

Summer on January 28, 2009 at 11:48 PM

.
Imagine that 40 years ago the Rabbinate amended the kosher laws and told Jews that pork was now OK to eat. Several rabbis disagree strenuously and are eventually excommunicated.

After 20 years goes by, the Rabbinate decides, in the interest of unity, to lift the excommunications. Several months before they do, Rabbi Williamson gives an interview to a television station and makes some inflammatory remarks about Catholics – perhaps he says that the historical record cannot show that Jesus ever existed and the Vatican has known all along. The day the excommunications are lifted, the television station airs those remarks.

Should the Vatican break ties with the Rabbinate? Does the lifting of an excommunication that was only imposed due to an internal, faith-based issue at all speak to the Rabbinate’s endorsement of Rabbi Williamson’s remarks about Christ and the Vatican?

That said, Bishop Williamson is an ass and needs to spend a long time in a cloister praying.

Occasus on January 29, 2009 at 1:10 AM

Occasus on January 29, 2009 at 1:10 AM

The analogy is incorrect. =)

If a Rabbi says that Jesus never existed, that’s a theological matter to debate between faiths. It has nothing to do with a matter of historical fact that we all know to be true and beyond dispute: that millions of people were literally murdered. There is a huge difference between a theological difference of opinion and outright denial of one of the greatest crimes in humanity. That’s the difference.

Summer on January 29, 2009 at 1:44 AM

thuja on January 28, 2009 at 9:16 PM

Why should it be worse for American Jews rather than Israeli Jews to not support Operation Lead Cast? You got it backasswards.

When is the Chief Rabbinate going to condemn and cut ties off with the Jewish holocaust deniers? When they are not attending denier conventions or getting their photo taken swapping spit with Ahmadinejad, they are marching with Jew haters world wide.

The Chief Rabbinate objects to the excommunication being lifted on a holocaust denier but does not block the right of return for Jewish holocaust deniers. Again, get your own house in order. All those who support the Chief Rabbinate explain why you tolerate the hypocrisy.

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 2:11 AM

Why should it be worse for American Jews rather than Israeli Jews to not support Operation Lead Cast? You got it backasswards.

When is the Chief Rabbinate going to condemn and cut ties off with the Jewish holocaust deniers? When they are not attending denier conventions or getting their photo taken swapping spit with Ahmadinejad, they are marching with Jew haters world wide.

The Chief Rabbinate objects to the excommunication being lifted on a holocaust denier but does not block the right of return for Jewish holocaust deniers. Again, get your own house in order. All those who support the Chief Rabbinate explain why you tolerate the hypocrisy.

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 2:11 AM

I agree with that except that those ultra ultra orthodox fanatics speak for about 0.0001% of Jews, nobody pays attention to them, and they are not regarded as legitimate by anyone with any common sense.

Such is not the case with this Bishop, however.

But you’re right: time to throw them out. They’re offensive and they don’t really have a place in Judaism.

I’m not Jewish, btw. Just calling it how I see it.

Summer on January 29, 2009 at 2:15 AM

Just calling it how I see it.

Then, you are blind. There are thousands of holocaust deniers in Israel. Neither they nor the thousands more living outside Israel are denied the right of return.

The ex-Bishop has no congregation. He speaks for one person.
He does not speak for the Church. No one in the church is supporting Holocaust denial. If you insist, let’s not be hypocrites. The holocaust deniers in Israel must also speak for the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. Therefore, the Chief Rabbinate supports holocaust denial.

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 2:31 AM

For the record:

He was legally ordained a priest.
He was illegally ordained a bishop and excommunicated for it.
The excommunication has been lifted,however,that does not make his illegal ordination as a bishop legal. So, stop calling him a bishop.In the eyes of the Church he was never a bishop and he’s not one now.

However,the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are still holocaust deniers because they refuse to take action on jews and rabbis who are holocaust deniers.

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 2:51 AM

Forgot: Though he is still a priest,he has been limited in how he can function as a priest. I linked the letter from the church stating the limitations. Someone linked another order that did not apply to Williamson and then someone else said the order I linked was no longer valid but provided no proof for their assertion. So,as it stands the order from the Church that limits his functions as a priest is still good canonical law.

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 2:55 AM

It’s Richard Williamson, who was excommunicated 20 years ago when he broke away to be ordained in a traditionalist Catholic sect, the Society of St. Pius X. Now the Pope’s un-excommunicated him and three others as a goodwill gesture aimed at returning the Society’s 150,000 members to the flock.

I look at this decision another way. There is speculation that the Pope will be the “false prophet” spoken of in the Book of Revelation. The Bible describes the false prophet as the antichrist’s sidekick (his right hand man). He will be, in effect, the minister of religion in the cabinet of the antichrist, consolidating all the religious systems of the world in one world religion, just as the antichrist will consolidate all the governments of the world into a one-world government. The false prophet and antichrist are human beings possessed by Satan after the Rapture and into the 7 year tribulation period when all hell breaks loose on earth. Here’s when the False prophet, who is a religious leader, enters onto the world scene (already into the 7 year tribulation):

“And I beheld another beast (false prophet, a religious leader possessed by Satan) coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him (first beast is antichrist, a political leader possessed by Satan), and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast (false prophet deceives people into worshipping antichrist), ..And he (false prophet) doeth great wonders ..And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth ..saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast (make a statue of the antichrist), ..and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed (you will be killed if you don’t worship antichrist).” Revelation 13:10-15

The inferno trio of Satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet, perhaps think to emulate the holy Trinity, will plot in desperation to defeat the Triune God (three in one) because they know their time is short. But, the Lord Jesus will defeat them when He returns and throw them all into the lake of fire forever.

apacalyps on January 29, 2009 at 4:31 AM

My status as a (miserably sinful) Catholic doesn’t change because of rogue priests or bishops or homosexual pedophiles in frocks. My love for my savior, whose human identity was a faithful Jewish man, is not affected by rogue practitioners of odd Jewish spin-off sects or even the opinions of mainstream Jewish leaders. These are human beings, with all the flaws and deficiencies of any other human. I cannot abandon my Cathoic identity because of the sins of particular Catholics nor deny my Jewish brethren because of the beliefs of some Jews. These arguments on detail always seem to degenerate into general attacks on whole religious beliefs. Way off target.

SKYFOX on January 29, 2009 at 5:16 AM

For the record, what is happening here is this. The Traditional Latin Mass is currently enjoying a grassroots explosion right now. Bringing the SSPX back in now makes a lot of sense for creating maximum synergy among the Trad crowd. Pope Benedict is happy to expose Williamson NOW, get him properly disinfected in the sunlight of public eye, and that problem will take care of itself. Better to clear the air now, then later. This has nothing to do with any Vatican acceptance of his views. What a joke.

Schweggie on January 29, 2009 at 7:07 AM

As far as I can see, this guy is still a priest. That’s number one. Not a bishop. A priest. I don’t think he should be excommunicated, just completely stripped of any title in the church.

Number two, the holocaust was not perpetrated on Christians by Jews. So if we have a holocaust denying Rabbi, it isn’t as though the Church can get up and say “You creeps are denying your criminality towards the Catholic Church!”. So the ones who are going on about the Rabbinate being Holocaust deniers can again take a flying, because there is a certain historical assymetry here. People who attempt to justify their take on this because of the legitimate suffering and death of Catholics in the holocaust should pause to consider who perpetrated and who abetted that suffering and death, and who aided and abetted that suffering and death.

Number three: none of this reflects on the morality of indvidual Catholics, except insofar as individual Catholics feel compelled to go on about “whining” Jews etc.

Number four: Blake, you are a charming fellow, and I am sure your mother loves you.

HiHo on January 29, 2009 at 7:11 AM

Whiny HiHo:

One, the Pope can’t strip him of anything unless he’s first unexcommunicated. By canonical law, once a priest, always a priest. However, they can be relieved of clerical duties but only for the “gravest of reasons.” Unfortunately, being an ahole is not “the gravest of reasons.” Still, it’s only been a week. There’s plenty of time. I suspect he will be told to stfu and then relieved of clerical duties when he disobeys.

Two, a holocaust denying priest is certainly no worse than a holocaust denying rabbi. Holocaust denying rabbis/Jews are propaganda tools for those who most would like to see a repeat of the Holocaust and are prized among jew haters. I don’t think they even believe their own crap but do it for the most selfish and petty of reasons. And they do it big. Like I said, they are all over the place with their little signs at demonstrations and french kissing the dinner jacket. They take money from Iran, too. Blech.

Those who have their panties in knots by my analogies “should pause to consider who perpetrated and who abetted that suffering and death, and who aided and abetted that suffering and death” and then explain why any Jew or Rabbi should be allowed to deny that suffering and death and aid and abet those who wish to perpetuate Shoah II.

Three, I’m not Catholic but I defend the right of Catholics to defend their faith against “whiny Jews”(your words,not mine)and anyone else who demands a double standard in regards to the Chief Rabbinate and the Vatican. Don’t yell hypocrite when you have a big H on your own forehead.

Four, Blake, you are a charming fellow, and I am sure your mother loves you. Undoubtedly. I’m good looking to!

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 8:36 AM

Hi Blake.

1. I didn’t say YOU said anything about anyone being whiny. Another commenter did. But now if you want to say Jews are whiny now, that’s fine with me.

2. As long as he’s a priest, and this is tolerated by the same church that helped push us into the ovens, don’t see why the Rabbinate has to deal with that church. If you think by the same token that the Rabbinate has a long history of killing and persecuting Catholics, and that it has to deal with this history a bit more, I’m cool with that too.

3. Of course Catholics can defend their church. No one has said they can’t, and good for them.. But if you think its all a big double standard, then clearly you think history is symmetrical. I’m fine with that too.

4. I’m not calling anyone a hypocrit. I really don’t care if catholics are hypocrits: its their business. But if a priest in the church gets up on his hind legs and propagates antisemitism, I can say something, just like I’ve said in person more than you ever will to the naturei Karta jokers. You’re the one yelling hypocrit. Suits me fine.

5. Unfortunately for your whole thesis, the Israeli Rabbinate, as well as other Rabbinates, have excommiunicated holocaust deniers. Look up on Arutz Sheva on 12/14/06 for example.

6. You are undoubtedly as good looking as you are perspicaceous.

HiHo on January 29, 2009 at 10:52 AM

1. The only name mentioned in your post was mine. At best you can claim you generalized. Either way, I quoted your words back to you, so own it.

2. No matter how many times you try to reframe the issue, it remains the same: If you think holocaust denial is grounds for the Rabbinate to demand that the Vatican give Williamson the boot, but act all huffy when confronted with the fact that the Rabbinate doesn’t kick out their own holocaust deniers, you are a hypocrite.

3. When people complained about the misinformation, you called it “individual Catholics [who] feel compelled to go on about “whining” Jews etc.” I pointed out why it is a double standard. You’re only rebuttal is that “clearly [I] I think “history is symmetrical.” Clearly, you are a hypocrite.

4. I’m calling you a hypocrite and it does suit you. You insist on employing a double standard. You are demanding that the Vatican defrock Williamson, something they can’t do under canonical law.

5. You’re oblique and rather vague referral to some news article is not impressive. Metzger called for cherem, however, there was no indication that it was actually imposed. Either way, it sure doesn’t look like the Neturei Karta are worse for the wear because of it. Entirely meaningless gestures are, well, meaningless.

6. You are undoubtedly as good looking as you are perspicaceous. Right back atcha’! :)

Blake on January 29, 2009 at 12:01 PM

It really is about the efforts to reconcile differences with the SSPX and I would guess the Pope was putting the general benefit of the Church first as you would expect him to.

Connie on January 28, 2009 at 6:46 PM

I don’t see how embracing these people benefits the Church, unless he thinks that he can slowly “cleanse” their flawed thinking with respect to Jewish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X#Accusations_of_anti-Semitism

worlok on January 29, 2009 at 12:56 PM

The sedvacantists are the only group who openly acknowledge what the Popes taught for centuries.

If you read all the anathemas and the conditions for excommunication in RC dogma, there are only about 117 Catholics left.

mankai on January 28, 2009 at 5:15 PM

And what about the teachings about sedevacantists? Who’s sitting in the seat of Peter? Some guy in Washington pretending to be pope?

darii on January 28, 2009 at 5:21 PM

My point is that the Sedevacantists do not pretend that the Popes didn’t say what they said. They quote the people supposedly who “sat in the seat of Peter” and take their infallible and unchangeable pronouncements seriously.

The Popes were abundantly clear in their damnations over the years (as were the Councils). The Sedes acknowledge what they taught. Leo XIII stated that no doctrine could ever change and damned any notion that a dogma could change because of “greater understanding.”

Wanna get called a “Catholic basher?” Want to be accused of “attacking the Church?” Just start quoting the Popes and Councils. I realize that makes no sense, but it is nonetheless true.

I was on a board with a priest who was starting at a new parish, Paul IV… I merely put up quotes from Paul IV (the guy who started the Jewish ghettos in Rome, btw)and bought myself a week’s banning… then I had to apologize to the RCs on the board for quoting one of their Popes. The Sedes don’t hide the Popes, that is why I admire them (even if they damn me 984 ways for my beliefs).

Since it is completely senseless and inappropriate to be in a situation where Christian piety allows the Jews (whose guilt—all of their own doing—has condemned them to eternal slavery) access to our society and even to live among us; indeed, they are without gratitude to Christians, as, instead of thanks for gracious treatment, they return invective, and among themselves, instead of the slavery, which they deserve, they manage to claim superiority… Paul IV (Cum nimis absurdum)

Not enough bandwidth to quote the volumes of other equally horrible statements from the “seat of Peter.”

The Sedes don’t deny these things… for that I give them credit.

mankai on January 29, 2009 at 1:19 PM

1. The only name mentioned in your post was mine. At best you can claim you generalized. Either way, I quoted your words back to you, so own it.

Oh no, I simply said that those who wanted to go on about “whiny” had certain properties. I did mention your name, but not in the same section. Don’t blame your defensiveness on me. You want to go on about whiny Jews, that’s fine.

2. No matter how many times you try to reframe the issue, it remains the same: If you think holocaust denial is grounds for the Rabbinate to demand that the Vatican give Williamson the boot, but act all huffy when confronted with the fact that the Rabbinate doesn’t kick out their own holocaust deniers, you are a hypocrite.

If anyone were to do that, its true, they would be a hypocrit. Its also irrelevant: a hypocrit can still be justified in their complaint. The Catholic Church helped kill off a lot of Jews, not the converse. While I agree that Holocaust denial might help kill more Jews in the future, that is a hypothetical, not yet a fact. So while someone might be a hypocrit, they may also be in the right. In addition, Neturei Karta, while offensive and evil, does not in fact deny the holocaust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

and the members of that sect who went to Iran have been banned. They have been refused entry to synagogues, and cannot bury their dead in Jewish cemetariies. cherem has been declared on them by multiple communities, and the rabbinate recognises them, and has urged other communities to adhere to it.

So that kinda kicks the legs out from under the accusation of hypocrisy, as does the fact of the excommunication of Naturei Karta (see below). So not only is your whinging about hypocrisy false in fact, but its also irrelevant. Ah well.

3. When people complained about the misinformation, you called it “individual Catholics [who] feel compelled to go on about “whining” Jews etc.” I pointed out why it is a double standard. You’re only rebuttal is that “clearly [I] I think “history is symmetrical.” Clearly, you are a hypocrite.

Looks like I hit a bit of a nerve with that one. Anyways, if you think there is a big double standard, like I say, OK. That position is contrary to the historical and present facts and that speaks for itself.

4. I’m calling you a hypocrite and it does suit you. You insist on employing a double standard. You are demanding that the Vatican defrock Williamson, something they can’t do under canonical law.

This is a problem for the Church, not the Rabbinate.


5. You’re oblique and rather vague referral to some news article is not impressive. Metzger called for cherem, however, there was no indication that it was actually imposed. Either way, it sure doesn’t look like the Neturei Karta are worse for the wear because of it. Entirely meaningless gestures are, well, meaningless.

Um….So you haven’t looked it up? Interesting. You’ve gone on about it but never looked it up. They have BEEN excommunicated (in the Jewish sense). Look it up for pity’s sake. The call was for everybody else to adhere to cherem. Once a ruling has been made by a beit din that the Isreali rabbinate recognises, a further ruling is irrelevant.

I don’t think you quite grasp the difference between the Rabbinate and the Church. And if you think the Jewish reaction to these people has been meaningless, well, OK. That’s good to know too. that’s another group of facts you need to look up.

6. You are undoubtedly as good looking as you are perspicaceous. Right back atcha’! :)

Well, thank you. I can’t say that, given your general inattention to fact, the compliment can be taken too seriously, but that’s OK.

HiHo on January 29, 2009 at 1:34 PM

* And they [Jews] may not presume in any way to play, eat or fraternize with Christians.
* And they cannot use other than Latin or Italian words in short-term account books that they hold with Christians, and, if they should use them, such records would not be binding on Christians [in legal proceedings].
* Moreover, these Jews are to be limited to the trade of rag-picking, or “cencinariae” (as it is said in the vernacular), and they cannot trade in grain, barley or any other commodity essential to human welfare.
* And those among them who are physicians, even if summoned and inquired after, cannot attend or take part in the care of Christians.
* And they are not to be addressed as superiors [even] by poor Christians.

-Pope Paul IV [Infallible Whackjob]

mankai on January 29, 2009 at 2:09 PM

The Leuchter Report answered: http://tinyurl.com/b9pcrg

Amendment X on January 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM

Williamson is hardly the only one who was un-excommunicated by the Pope with Holocaust denial statements to their credit.

Conservative Catholic priest Floriano Abrahamowicz said Thursday that “the only thing certain” about the gas chambers “was that they were used for disinfection.”

Another priest who denied the Holocaust altogether was rehabilitated by the pope.

Abrahamowicz, of Treviso in northern Italy, was quoted by the Tribuna di Treviso on Thursday in a report that received worldwide coverage due to the pope’s recent rehabilitation of a bishop who denied the Holocaust, sparking a battle between the Vatican and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

Abrahamowicz is a traditionalist like British-born Richard Williamson, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict on Saturday along with three other bishops after 20 years of exile.

I’m starting to see a pattern here…

lawhawk on January 29, 2009 at 3:48 PM

It is still an internal Church matter. Stop whining, Catholic bashers and haters

trainwife1962 on January 29, 2009 at 4:16 PM

Thanks for proving my point…

Wanna get called a “Catholic basher?” Want to be accused of “attacking the Church?” Just start quoting the Popes and Councils. I realize that makes no sense, but it is nonetheless true.

mankai on January 29, 2009 at 1:19 PM

It is still an internal Church matter. Stop whining, Catholic bashers and haters

trainwife1962 on January 29, 2009 at 4:16 PM

About as predicatble as the Left… don’t address the facts, just demonize the messenger.

mankai on January 29, 2009 at 4:45 PM

The St. Pius X society are heretics, the Pope is making a very stupid mistake.

Cr4sh Dummy on January 29, 2009 at 5:11 PM

trainwife1962: It is still an internal Church matter. Stop whining, Catholic bashers and haters

Nope. As long as this guy is talking in public about me and mine, it isn’t an internal matter. I realise that you’d like it to be so, but he isn’t just talking about Catholics. I don’t care what his theology is, and I don’t care about canon law, or whatever. He’s a priest of the Roman Catholic Church, and the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church is simply going to have to take the consequences. Individual Catholics, except insofar as they talk about whiny Jews and suchlike, I have no problem at all with.

HiHo on January 29, 2009 at 10:57 PM

The St. Pius X society are heretics, the Pope is making a very stupid mistake.

Cr4sh Dummy on January 29, 2009 at 5:11 PM

You can’t say that. According to Vat 2 (post conciliar documents)… Catholics must “submit mind and will” to both Pope and bishop in all matters of faith and morals. In the case of the Pope, the admonition for subjection is to be given “in a very special way.”

In the RCC, the Pope determines who is a heretic (such as catholics who pray with a non-Catholic or catholics who believe that the Catholic Church shouldn’t be the official religion of the state, etc.).

Oops! There I go quoting Popes and Councils again. I must be a “Catholic basher” for only someone who hates the RCC would actually quote their Popes.

mankai on January 30, 2009 at 8:34 AM

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