Update: Coach fired for un-apologizing after 100-0 win
posted at 4:20 pm on January 26, 2009 by Allahpundit
The exciting conclusion to Friday’s inexplicably popular post about the school apologizing for a win that wasn’t very “Christ-like.”
The coach of a Texas high school basketball team that beat another team 100-0 was fired Sunday, the same day he sent an e-mail to a newspaper saying he will not apologize “for a wide-margin victory when my girls played with honor and integrity.”
Kyle Queal, the headmaster for Covenant School, said in The Dallas Morning News online edition that he could not answer if the firing was a direct result of coach Micah Grimes’ e-mail disagreeing with administrators who called the blowout “shameful.”…
A parent who attended the game said Covenant continued to make 3-pointers — even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.
Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.
Would Jesus be chucking threes in the fourth quarter up 85 points? The coach asks himself and answers … yes:
The Apology. In response to the statement posted on The Covenant School Website, I respectfully disagree with the apology, especially the notion that the Covenant School girls basketball team should feel “embarrassed” or “ashamed”. We played the game as it was meant to be played and would not intentionally run up the score on any opponent. Although a wide-margin victory is never evidence of compassion, my girls played with honor and integrity and showed respect to Dallas Academy. We honor God, ourselves, and our families when we step on the court to compete. I do no wish to forfeit the game. What kind of example does it set for our children? Do we really want to punish Covenant School girls? Does forfeiting really help Dallas Academy girls? We experienced a blowout almost 4 years ago and it was painful, but it made us who we are today. I believe in the lessons that sports teach us. Competition builds character, and teaches us to value selflessness, hard work, and perseverance. As a coach, I have instilled in my girls these values. So if I lose my job over these statements, I will walk away with my integrity.
His girls played with “honor” by straining to hit 100 points against a team that was outmatched from the opening tip? Winning 60-2 would have also “built character,” champ.
Here’s the obligatory Fox & Friends debate, with Gretchen taking a surprise pro-showboating position. Exit question: How about running the shot clock down to one second on each possession when you’ve got a 70-point lead?
Blowback
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OK problem solver, you’re the coach, your team has a 35 point first quarter, and you have only eight kids to play the game, guaranteeing that there will be at least two starters in the game at any one time.
What is your strategy?
john1schn on January 26, 2009 at 10:42 PM
Yep, and I think the Convent team must have had an unreal control of the boards to not give up any fast break points.
I wasn’t making a point about whether Convent should or shouldn’t have taken 3′s, rather that, for any team, knowing they can get offensive rebounds makes the 3 a more attractive option.
As far as Convent goes. I think 3′s are no big deal to keep taking. If they were playing subs and not pressing and trapping then it probably isn’t unsportsmanlike.
dedalus on January 26, 2009 at 10:42 PM
…or, as I mentioned before, Dallas Academy was just that damn bad, which is VERY likely.
john1schn on January 26, 2009 at 10:44 PM
They shouldn’t have traded Devin Harris for an over-the-hill point guard. Oh well, they’d still probably be the #4 seed in the East.
dedalus on January 26, 2009 at 10:46 PM
The coach was (is) a jackass, but I’ve got no problems with putting a ridiculous amount of wood to any opponent’s backside. If they can’t stop you, tough. Sooner or later, some other team, or procession of teams, is going to seriously kick your bottom. Karmic retribution forever. So no, I don’t think that the coach needed to apologize. He was an a-hole, but I don’t care. Sports are played to win by the maximum amount every single time. Period. The other guy is supposed to stop you. If he (she) can’t, tough. Get better. And then watch for the epic arse-whooping other teams will be itching to lay on the team that killed you.
Physics Geek on January 26, 2009 at 10:47 PM
That was funny.
progressoverpeace on January 26, 2009 at 10:49 PM
They also shouldn’t have dumped Nash, or dumped Avery Johnson. Oh, and there’s that little thing about waiving Michael Finley. You know, the one that was on the NBA Champion SA Spurs in 2007…
A person to dump would be Nowitzki. Talk about a disaster. He’s worse than a choker, he’s a bitter choker.
john1schn on January 26, 2009 at 10:50 PM
Yeah, the amazing thing about the score isn’t the 100, it’s the zero. It seems like they couldn’t even get the ball up the court. I wonder how many shots Dallas got off in the general direction of the basket.
dedalus on January 26, 2009 at 10:50 PM
Sorry I’m with the coach on this one. Better to get my butt whooped than have someone cut me a pity break in a competitive sport. Your basketball team can score a single point in a full game you’re doing it wrong. Maybe the lesson sinks and you learn to do it right.
DaMav on January 26, 2009 at 10:54 PM
I do think we can agree Dallas Academy needs a new coach. Hey, I hear someone else in the area is recently out of a job… ;)
Goodnight all—I may or may not have won this argument buy I gave it my best and I didn’t let up on you just to make you feel better ;)
mcg on January 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM
Yeah, in my previous comment I started to type that Dallas being better would just give Dirk another chance to shrink in the spotlight, but deleted it since it seemed too nasty. But, Dallas was the best team in the league for about 2 years. Their time has past though. Same for Phoenix–could have won it all for a couple of years. Now the two teams can battle it out for the 8th playoff spot.
dedalus on January 26, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Oh, and a final note about Mark Cuban. He sucks, and blows at the same time. This owner of the Dallas “My Little Ponies” also sees fit to bankroll anti-American film and promote Dan “the documents are real” Rather.
john1schn on January 26, 2009 at 10:57 PM
O.K. – some perspective (I apologize if anyone’s brought this up before):
In high school, Cheryl Miller (Reggie’s brother) scored 105 points herself in a 179-15 win. Did her coach get fired?
Lisa Leslie scored 101 points in the first half of a high school game… score at half: 102-24. Guess what? The other team forfeited before the second half. Any firings?
Blowouts happen quite often in girls high school basketball.
Is it more embarrassing to complete a blowout, or to pretend like you’re playing defense to allow a shot or intentionally give away a rebound. Which looks worse?
WaltDakota on January 26, 2009 at 10:58 PM
I can’t think of anything more humiliating to the losing team than to have the winners throwing them points, letting them score, deliberately dribbling away the ball, or sitting down on the court and doing nothing.
You can learn lessons from winning or losing. What lesson is learned from your opponents letting you score points so your feelings are not hurt? Just pathetic.
DaMav on January 26, 2009 at 11:03 PM
I couldn’t help but think of George C. Scott’s role as GEN Patton:
Oh, how far we’ve strayed… pitiful.
Send_Me on January 26, 2009 at 11:18 PM
What Patton said.
Unfortunately, this ain’t AoSHQ and I can’t use the proper verbiage here, but anyone who thinks that the coach did anything wrong because his girls beat the snot out of another team and he didn’t forfeit is full of horse hooey.
Do we cry in our beer when the score is 70 dead tangoes and 0 dead Americans? No, we don’t. What about 10,000+ dead Somalis and 18 dead Americans? Is that lopsided?
As the man said, “Life is hard. It’s harder when you’re stupid.” If the Dallas’ girls team coach sucks so bad that he/she can manage a 100 point LOSS, maybe he/she needs to get round filed and Dallas should be chided for hiring someone who obviously can’t coach worth a spit and get someone in there who can.
Anyone who thinks that these girls need to be babysat before they get dumped on the hard, cold realities of life, congratulations – you are what’s wrong with America. You’re the reason that 60 years ago no boy would be caught dead without his pocket knife and now it’s a federal god damn crime. You’re the reason that teaching your boys to shoot at 4 or 5 makes other people “uncomfortable”. Chances are good you’re a boomer, you’ve never grown your own food, you’ve never let your kids play down in the creek by themselves, and why kids today need to be doped up so they can be regulated in a more efficient manner.
The death of personal liberty. We breed and punish risk taking and competition out of our children, then wonder why the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Risk taking and competition are integral parts of self-reliance. Self-reliance is the key to individualism. Individualism is the key to liberty.
flashoverride on January 26, 2009 at 11:34 PM
Striving to win is the name of the game in competitive athletics. Once that is attained, which should have been apparent early on in this game, the dogs should be called off. That doesn’t mean that the kids don’t try. It simply means that the coach of the winning team does all he can to shield and protect the kids on the other team from hurt and humiliation. He had lots of options in that game. He could milk the clock (if there is one at that level in that area), he could empty his bench, he could set plays that highlight his worst player, etc….
A coach at that level has many options to do the decent thing and let his opponents score and leave with their heads held high (or at least level).
This coach didn’t do that. I’ve no doubt that he cajoled and encouraged his players to strive for a win of 100 to 0. Scum. That’s what he is. And he got what he deserved. Those kids aren’t pros. The kids on the other team don’t deserve the humiliation that that coach put on them. And make no mistake, the coach is who did it. His players played. But a responsible coach slows a game like that down and it ends up in the area of 56 to 6 (or whatever).
I’m glad he was canned. He deserved it.
Wink
wink on January 26, 2009 at 11:41 PM
Weird story. At first glance, the winning coach looks like a real jerk who had to not only win, but humiliate the losing team. Then you read this:
(Thanks, mcg for adding important information to the discussion)
Suddenly, the picture changes. He only had 8 players, so he couldn’t bench more than 3 starters at a time. He took reasonable steps to keep from running up the score too bad, such as canceling the full court press and putting his 3 subs in. The teams were just too mismatched.
Sometimes you get these gross mismatches when you have a number of schools of various sizes in a small league. I’ve been on both sides of a blowout, though never so extreme.
The school management certainly had the right to fire their coach, but the coach did the right thing to defend his team against the criticism. Ironically, it looks like it will be the coach who loses with honor this time.
What is really offensive is the suggestion that the team should be embarrassed and ashamed for winning, and the offer of a forfeit for the offense of winning too big. I sincerely hope the losing team has too much character to accept such a disgraceful offer.
ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on January 26, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Home by Christmas!
See my previous comment. Thanks for breeding a nation of liberals, you twit.
He could pander to the soft bigotry of lowered expectations?
Allowing your kids to believe that failure is appropriate is condoning failure. Failure should never be palatable. Accepted, perhaps, but it should sting. Failure in life often results in death.
The only disgusting coach here is the one who failed so miserably at preparing their team for a game that got beaten by 100 points.
You are glad he lost his salary and method of making a living? So you’re glad that if he has a family, now they will suffer because he did his job and coached his team into success? YOU ARE DISGUSTING.
flashoverride on January 26, 2009 at 11:54 PM
Our 8th grade team here in Wooster was beating local league teams high 60′s to single digits, one game I saw was around 68-8, there are Jr High kids laying it to their opponent. No coaches got fired. The girls have been playing 60 games a year since 3rd grade. Went to Pat Summit camps. Two start varsity as freshmen with one scoring 13 PPG.
So, 68-8 in Jr high is maybe like 150-30 in high school.
WoosterOh on January 27, 2009 at 12:00 AM
The team that Covenent played was a school for girls with learning disabilites and only has eight players on the varsity team. They haven’t won a game in for years.
Kim Priestap on January 27, 2009 at 12:01 AM
Flashoveride.
Do you think 56-6 doesn’t sting? These are kids. I’m no liberal. I never said there should be no winners or losers. I simply said that a responsible coach should have the best interests of all the kids in mind. If this guy did all he could to limit the score, then god bless him. But I don’t believe it. I’ve got 30 years of high school sports experience. If a coach wants to limit the score, he has the means to do so.
In addition, name calling is never mature discourse.
A$$hole.
wink on January 27, 2009 at 12:07 AM
I’ll assume you’re using the proverbial “you” since I didn’t argue that.
There’s a difference between saying whether a entity can do a thing and an individual opinion on whether it should do that thing. And the opinions are to be considered unique and individual as well.
Therefore…
The employer’s right to fire the man is one subject.
And then the employer’s opinion on whether it should or should not is a separate subject. My opinion on whether the employer should or should not is a third subject. And so on…
Analogy alert: it’s as if we were watching a baseball game and the umpire called a strike. One person might say it was (one opinion), another might say it wasn’t (another opinion). But it’s the umpire’s opinion that counts and he has the right to make decisions based on his opinion.
baldilocks on January 27, 2009 at 12:07 AM
Kim: that’s old news. It’s also not as relevant as people think. For one thing, their opponents had only eight players, too. Secondly, at least one team member on the winning team has ADD and ADHD, too. Besides, when did basketball become a scholar’s sport? When Stanford made the Final Four?
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 12:09 AM
“ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on January 26, 2009 at 11:54 PM”
hm — we have a serious disconnect between what the coach claims and what a mom from the opposing team claims. Can we get a tiebreaker witness?!
Buckaroo on January 27, 2009 at 12:33 AM
Fired for astonishing stupidity. He should look for a job in the Obama admin.
Jaibones on January 27, 2009 at 12:52 AM
I find the coach a lot more credible. Eyewitnesses would be good, but I would have to caution that you can have eyewitnesses watching the same game and going away complaining about how biased the referees were — but arguing who they were biased for. It’s hard to find objective eyewitnesses for a high school game.
But with only 8 players, it should be obvious the coach’s options were limited. No putting in the third string — there wasn’t one. No putting in the second string — they didn’t even have a full second string. All they had were 3 subs, and he says he played them. If they were nearly as good as the starters, that might not have made much of a difference.
I just have this strong suspicion that a lot of the assumptions people made about the coach running up the score were based on what they knew of much bigger schools, where the coach could put in the scrubbiest third-string players and let them get a little practice. And where there are enough schools of approximately the same size that all schools in the league have at least a shot at a fair game.
But I do start with one prejudice that might affect my viewpoint: a very healthy skepticism that any story in the media is accurately reported.
ThereGoesTheNeighborhood on January 27, 2009 at 12:59 AM
Here’s the eyewitness account from the Breitbart article:
Like I said before, they only made four three pointers in the whole game; and none of them in the fourth quarter. At least, that’s what the coach has plainly stated. She’s complaining about a tactic that netted 12 lousy points? Come on. It’s ludicrous and it calls into question her claim they were doing the full-court press the whole game, too.
The only eyewitness claims I’ve seen in several stories are from her, and a claim from the Dallas Academy athletic director that the Covenant team kept its first-string players in the game almost until the end and didn’t let up until the 100th point in the fourth quarter. Well, the coach says they started running the clock out in the fourth quarter, but claims he swapped in his subs from the beginning. And since he only had 8 players, unless he purposefully played only 3 players he has to have some starters in at all times. Furthermore, even the athletic director said “Whether they were intentially running up the score, I couldn’t answer that.”
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 1:25 AM
Here’s the coaches bio from his website:
Looks like the guy’s a darn good coach. I think he’ll be fine.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 1:31 AM
LOL!
Kralizec on January 27, 2009 at 2:19 AM
When I was in high school, during one season we lost every football and basketball game. It just made us try harder the next year. Most of us went on to be very successful after school. You learn a lot from failure in school. You are better prepared for the real world.
Johan Klaus on January 27, 2009 at 2:40 AM
No way. Our new Precedent is anti-competitive. I hear the new AG is looking into pressing a torture case against the coach – violation of the Geneva Conventions part on humiliation. They are going to argue that since the Dallas Academy team was obligated to be on the court, they were prisoners, of a sort. As the Covenant team was moving at will, they took on the role of the de facto imprisoners. Therefore, their conduct with respect to Dallas Academy fell under the Conventions and they clearly violated the humiliation clause, not to mention the extreme emotional torture they intentionally inflicted (experts have said that such a loss can have a worse effect than waterboarding). Further, their actions afterwards caused the photo of the tortured prisoners to be published, also violating the 4th Conventions. Eric Holder has stated that he thinks that The Hague should hold back on this one; that America will do the prosecution and use it as an example to the world, to show that we take the Geneva Conventions seriously.
progressoverpeace on January 27, 2009 at 4:23 AM
How apropos that this story would occur within the first week of Obama’s presidency.
misslizzi on January 27, 2009 at 5:32 AM
Awww! Poor wittwww darlings got their feelings hurt. sniffle sniffle… Girls shouldn’t play sports! It’s rough and tumble and their are winners and losers. They should restrict their activities to home economics and barbie dolls. No winners and losers there.
sabbott on January 27, 2009 at 5:53 AM
Ya, teach kids to hold back instead of whipping it on till total victory. Good thing my buds in Afghanistan don’t mind 100 (dead Taliban) – 0 (dead American) blowouts.
Mack08 on January 27, 2009 at 6:55 AM
I have a better solution. The referee should have called the game at half time.
Mercutio on January 27, 2009 at 7:05 AM
I haven’t budged either.
I saw “suck it up and move on”.
This is such a non issue.
Crab Pot on January 27, 2009 at 7:09 AM
The next time my son’s team gets creamed at YMCA basketball, I am demanding an apology. I want to be “Christ-like”.
Mrs. Happy Housewife on January 27, 2009 at 8:04 AM
To be fair the war analogies are weak. We haven’t achieved full victory against the Taliban yet. Our problem in war is not that we’re unwilling to win in a blowout—we’re unwilling to truly win at all.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 8:53 AM
Quick poll:
How many supporters of the coach here won a lot in their amateur sports endeavors, and how many detractors were the losers?
Mephistefales on January 27, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Why are there no pics of the winning team? anywhere? or any video of the game?
Could it be that to show the other team would be racist??
ExTex on January 27, 2009 at 8:58 AM
what a bunch of whiners here… so what team won 100-0 big freakin’ deal…
NRA Lifer on January 27, 2009 at 9:06 AM
Heck with that. The coach should be applauded and sent to the NBA. If anyone should be fired, its whoever scheduled this game.
Ryan Gandy on January 27, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Simple. Defensively tell the girls to play a 2-3 zone and forbid any defender from leaving the paint. For heavens sake call off the press. When a rebound is made or a pass stolen, no fast breaks.
Offensively there is no shot clock. Tell the girls you want at least 10 passes before the shot goes up.
There is a whole lot of ways to keep from embarressing a group of kids. As a coach I’ve been on both sides. In Texas HS b-ball or any other level, if you beat someone 100-0 you don’t get an attaboy I can assure you.
Spider79 on January 27, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Because a HS girls’ basketball game has so much in common with war? I’m sure that the posters equating these two are also the parents who scream at their ten-year-olds little league games.
The issue here is that the coach whined to the papers and showed himself to be a tool. He was fired for that.
Illinidiva on January 27, 2009 at 9:11 AM
As I stated previous, you can always tell who have never competed at a high level…when you so greatly over match the opponent, there is no honor in humiliating them.
A simple stride over to the other coach at half time, and state, “How about a forfeit, we divide up the teams and have some fun”.
Both teams could have learned something…this is high school where they are still teaching some values…you can win without humiliating.
Have you ever thought that maybe destroying your opponent is more of a liberal idea…like not letting conservatives speak on campuses, having an institutionalized illegal voting program, etc.?
That maybe humility, fairness, honor is more of a conservative value?
This school fired this coach because of his liberal values…those aren’t the values I wanted my kids to have, and they don’t.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 9:16 AM
A high school girls basketball game and a war in Afghan…and you make the analogy that they are similar in context…
This is why we have someone like Obama in the White House.
The left said that Gitmo was the same as the torture chambers of Saddam’s…they say the Christians are the same as the terrorists Muslims…and you say a high school girls basketball game is the same as war…my oh my…
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 9:19 AM
It was right to fire the coach, and I played on the national water polo team (and more)…There is no honor in humiliating an opponent in a game, especially a high school game.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 9:24 AM
Perhaps the wrong coach got fired.
Tommy_G on January 27, 2009 at 9:27 AM
This is a joke, right? “Have some fun”? This is a high school league game, not a campout. Teams don’t get dressed and drive out in buses to “divide up the teams and have some fun”. What fun can be had with players who can’t play? (As evidenced by the score of 0)
Otherwise, it’s called a scrimmage, not a game. If you think Dallas Academy should only be scrimmaging (and not pretending that they can play games) then I agree with you. But they have to ask teams to come scrimmage with them, not lure them in for an alleged game and then “have some fun”.
You know what, it’s more important to learn that you can lose without feeling humiliated, no matter what the score. I can’t even believe the things people are saying about this.
progressoverpeace on January 27, 2009 at 9:29 AM
What’s wrong with simply playing the game for the sheer joy of expressing one’s mastery of it?
The school principal and everyone else who has been critical of the 100-0 win seem to miss the irony and cynicism of what they are advocating – they are saying “you play to win and once you’ve assured yourself of that, you’re done.” No playing for yourself, for the exhilaration of it. Just play to win.
But don’t win by too much because then you’ll hurt someone’s feelings and we know that, in modern society, there’s simply nothing worse that hurting someone’s feelings.
On the whole “Christian approach to basketball” thing, isn’t expressing one’s talent really just another way of expressing your God-given gifts?
pussum207 on January 27, 2009 at 9:35 AM
You got that right.
pussum207 on January 27, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Coach supporter here. Almost always on the losing team!
misslizzi on January 27, 2009 at 9:42 AM
This is such a perfect example of idiotic Liberal political correctness run amok. This Coach did absolutely nothing wrong! I wish he was teaching my Son. He is teaching his team to win, to crush the opposition and to not feel sorry for being better than others, whether in sports or life. So many bleeding heart fools are posting here about “WWJD” garbage and hurt “feelings”. Ah, the WUSS-I-FICATION of America is almost completed. I hope you folks remember that when your little crumb-crunchers are working for Asians, Indians and every other group that understand excellence, hard work and exceptionalism! We are raising an entire next generation of morons that do not understand “winners and losers”, that do not understand failure and the drive to improve. We are creating a herd mentality of mediocrity. The very same type of sheeple that voted for the Messiah and the cult of personality that is the bane and ruin of real America. Our forefathers believed in being the best, crushing competition, work ethics, winning. Being a leader and teacher is a responsibility to mold winners, not coddle whiners. “There is NO crying in Baseball”! We cannot allow Dodge Ball in schools anymore because it might hurt a little rug-rats feelings when they don’t get picked, or maybe they “feel” hurt when they get tagged out… Geez, spineless jellyfish we are creating. Unable to fend for themselves they are perfect “subjects” for the coming Socialism in America. We cannot grade school papers with a “red” marker anymore, because the color is offensive and could emotional scar a child. Holy Bleep! What has happened to America? When I was growing up, we had winners, losers, kids that got picked first and last, that did great in grades and that failed… We had guts, we had ambitions, we had values, we had pressure to excel, to win. For me, it has been a blessing. I have always been in leadership positions, owned my own business, have a great family, honest friends, faith and a love of Country. Are we raising our kids to be weak or will we start to demand more Coaches like the one who is now unemployed? The losing girls need to be humiliated, redouble their efforts to improve, desire revenge on the Basketball court and learn a lesson. The winning girls need to learn that they have done a great thing, they won, they played as a team, they worked together. To the rest of you mamby-pamby, feel-gooder liberals, I hope your kids like working for MY Son. Cause he will be leading while yours are the sheeple.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 9:47 AM
The Sportsmanship Doctrine.
aengus on January 27, 2009 at 9:48 AM
If you’re taking three pointers with a 70 point lead, they should be from just inside the half court line with one second left on the shot clock.
Good for The Covenant School for firing the lowlife. He can coach basketball, but, at the high school level, some things are more important. He also has to be a coach of life, and, on that, he turns out to be a loser.
Another suggestion: when up by 30 in such an obvious victory, throw in the second string. When up by 50, throw in the third string. If you’re still up by 50 and you’re under five minutes left, start running down the clock and either throwing it from half court or handing it to the ref when the shot clock buzzes. Better yet, give the opponent a clinic by just running the ball under your own basket, setting a defense, and handing the ball to their guard there so they can get some much-needed practice on their offense.
flutejpl on January 27, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Typical Liberal softy… Look at my post above and remember, people like me and this Coach will be your bosses and leaders… We will be the winners in life while you sit in the back and bitch about your situation.
Wussified morons!
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 9:57 AM
What you are purposely missing, or blank out, is that no one has said anything about losing or winning.
It is the way you win or lose…
In high school, no lesson is learned from humiliating another team…cheering as you are running up the score by 100 points is not being a sportsman. You think it is, you are the guy who thinks that kicking someone when they are down is cool…I don’t, nor do I have to, to prove I am better.
And yes, I have been in league games where our coach went over and said “how about a forfeit” and let’s have some fun.
Going into games, the coach’s know when they are incredibly outmatched…just walk over and say “if at half-time it is a real blow out, let’s have some fun”.
Our coach did that in college…when I was on the junior national team we played the Hungarian men’s national team…they were beating us to a pulp…we stopped the game, divided up and continued playing. I was 16 and played with some the greatest players on the planet…I will say it again…there is no honor for a real athlete to destroy his opponent and humiliate them. I have never met a real athlete that would get any pride from that.
That is a fantasy played out by desk jockey’s.
And I can, people obviously do not have the capacity to separate winning from humiliating.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 9:59 AM
Never played a sport huh??
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Oh my God, I just threw up in my mouth a bit… What a silly statment. Let’s just help the oponents. Maybe we should train the Terrorists too, show them how to beat us… Maybe Coke can show Pepsi how to beat thier market share… Maybe we can teach your child to be a puss, that will come in handy in a dog eat dog competitive glabal economy! Geez, people like you make me ill…
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:01 AM
To Mark Garnett,
I feel a little bit sorry for your son. High School athletics teaches more than Win/Loss records.
There is no honor in what this coach did. None. It could and should not have happened.
Should he lose his job over it? That is a different topic.
Spider79 on January 27, 2009 at 10:04 AM
Played LIFE, much more important. Do you disagree with my points that we as a Country are creating a Nation of “whiners”? Of those more intrested in compromise and being liked? I calll it WUSS-I-FICATION! People like you would NOT have survived in the old west or in early America. Self-reliance, Victor at all costs metality is what made America great once…
So are you a winner in life or a sheeple today?
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Notice it was your coach, the coach of the losing team, who stopped the game. The Hungarian team would probably have continued pulping you, and rightfully so.
misslizzi on January 27, 2009 at 10:07 AM
Mark Garnett: Look up Carl “Luz” Long on Wikipedia. Talk about “helping the opponents”! He actually helped Jesse Owens beat him. These are Olympic champions we’re talking about, better men than you will ever be.
Nobody is arguing that the winners here should have done that. We all agree that the victory remain decisively with The Covenant School. You don’t seek to set aside the victory, you move past it and work to improve the abilities of both teams.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between opponents and enemies; between a competition and a war. You need to get a life.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:07 AM
That’s the whole name of the game in High School for most kids. The kids are really there to have fun, get some exercise, and learn a few valuable lessons. None of the girls are probably good enough to be the next Candice Parker or even get a scholarship to a Division 1A school. Having fun is what competition at the level is all about. There was a great book a few years ago called My Losing Season. However, it seems that neither you nor the Covenant coach understand this concept, which is what is wrong with youth sports today. I sure hope that your child never picks up sports, because I’d hate to have you in the stands screaming and humiliating him or her if he/ she misses the winning free throw or strikes out.
Illinidiva on January 27, 2009 at 10:08 AM
My Son is a Marine LT, don’t feel sorry for him… He’s a leader, in command of real men, Soldiers! They don’t play to lose, or play to be fair… They play to win. Thank God for men like him instead of the moroinc tools your kids will be flipping burgers at McD’s… Sucess and exceptionalism is lost ofn you… And you NEVER adressed my points about the generation we are raising, the Dodge Ball, The “Red” grades, winning, losing…
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Why do you think OTHER races and Nationalities are KICKING OUR BUTTS in business, commerce and leadership? Any thoughts idiot? Because they demand STRICT results from thier kids, they work them hard in music, sports, school, math and they are BETTING THE CRAP out of your kids. In life they are winning, they are earning twice the avg of Amrican kids, they are into sucess. They work hard, not make excuses. They understnd winning. They strive to be better than thier “oponents” in LIFE, not just in sports.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:15 AM
HS doesn’t have a shot clock.
Tim Burton on January 27, 2009 at 10:17 AM
Mark Garnett: I retired financially secure at age 32. I work at my pleasure. If you can’t say the same, then don’t lecture me on competitiveness.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Not the high school teams I was on. We spent hours every single day training. We played for real, not for fun. I think you are confusing elementary school with high school.
If you say so. What does it matter. You think it’s only the athletic scholarship candidates who take their sports seriously? Do you think that people spend two hours a day swimming to the point of total exhaustion just to have fun at the meets? And it has nothing to do with scholarships or even being on the first string.
Incorrect.
Huh? You’re just being silly, here.
progressoverpeace on January 27, 2009 at 10:22 AM
I can… and yes, I get it. These are KIDS… But when do we as Parents start to teach our kids that if they don’t want to flip burgers or dig ditchs, they have to make choices? When do we talk about being the best you can be, not just run in the pack? When do we start demanding better results, like employers are looking for? You good intentions will NOT get you a leadership position, will not instill confidnece in your abilities. Are you a winner? Are you happy and confident in yourself when you do well and achieve victory and are you ALSO able to handle rejection, defeat, humiliations??? Folks, we will all and HAVE ALL experienced failures, historic failures in our minds, been heartbroken, felt ashamed… IT IS LIFE! It’s not a bed of roses, so if your kids can’t handle BOTH losing horribly and the sweet feeling of total victory, then your raising your kids to live in your basement for the next 40 years…
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:22 AM
You can become a whiner and learn how to accept failures gracefully without being humiliated in a girls’ basketball game. It seems like the girls at Dallas Academy already have good attitudes. They’ve lost every game they’ve ever played but still show up every day and give it their best shot. That seems to me to be a better mark of sportsmanship than a coach who decided to deliberately run up the score.
Illinidiva on January 27, 2009 at 10:23 AM
Nope, you win, I was 46 when I sold my Company and retired. So good for you, your in the winner class. I bow to your superior ability and sucess. Still you never answered my points about the generation we are raising today against the worlds compitition. But savor your victory.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM
You’re pathetic, Mark. Do you really think it would have been less humiliating to lose, say, 80-6 when the winning team benches its starters and shifts to a 2-3 zone defense? Of course not. Nobody is being spared the “truth” when good sportsmanship is employed. The losers are still losers, the big losers are still big losers. The difference is that sportsmanship creates the environment that is more conducive to convincing the losers to buck up and do what it takes to change things.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Damn straight I did. Now take go take your lumps like a man, and consider that it is possible to teach kids to face real-life challenges and yet recognize that at some point, game is a friggin’ game.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:27 AM
Still unwilling to adress the whinner / loser mentality we are teaching our kids today, no dodge ball, no red mark grades, no exceptionalism, just sameness and sheeple. So you figure the old west was won by folks that just played “nice”? I’ll take being pathetic with the Son I raised, my wife of 24 years, my work history, my love for Country, my volunteer work, my friends and my God.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM
Oh I’m sorry, that wasn’t so sportsmanlike of me, was it?
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM
We are creating a group of whiners, and the left is producing them…the ones who think winning at all costs, the end justifies the means, the ones who keep conservatives off the campuses, the ones who have an institution of voter fraud, the win at all costs, and destroy the “loser”. The vile contempt the left has, the anger and the obsession with destroying the opposition. The intent of keeping minorities uneducated…because they are “losers” and don’t deserve anything better.
As opposed to conservative values of winning with honor, and helping the “loser” become better and productive…
So I am a winner, which would make you a “sheepie”?
Like I stated, no real athlete would find any pleasure in humiliating an opponent (however, their are a few examples, but they revolve around politics, try the 1956 Hungarian/Russian water polo match “The day the pool ran red”)
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM
Normaly we are in agreement on these forums. Maybe my retoric is over the top. Maybe I am not stating my points clearly. I will ponder my points and try to rephrase.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:35 AM
It has more to do with what they focus on. Winning High School basketball games has less to do with their ultimate success than developing expertise in areas that American students tend to bypasss–math and engineering being two.
dedalus on January 27, 2009 at 10:35 AM
So, I am assuming when you son’s unit overruns an enemy, and the enemy is beaten, he continues to shoot them? Playing “fair” isn’t part of your life skills, so shooting an unarmed combatant is not a problem for you? Is that what you are saying? Or will you admit that constraint, even on the battlefield, is a mark of honor…and if there then surely on the confines of a high school gym, the same restraint can be taught.
While you son is fighting for our freedom, our sons and daughters are paying his wages so he can fight…they are on the same team, different positions.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 10:36 AM
At my HS, we didn’t have professional coaches; all the teams were coached by teachers who just truly loved sports. The teams worked hard, but it was understood that school and grades came first and that the main idea was to have fun and compete your hardest. Nobody beat themselves up when they lost; they just went out and tried their best.
Most people compete in sports because they enjoy doing it everyday. They thinking that going out and swimming to exhaustion is fun. If you don’t, then why the hell are you even competing.
Based on your comments, you strike me as one of the stage parents who yell and scream at Little League games and get into fights with the umpires. The issue with youth sports (and yes HS sports is included in there) is that all parents seem to think their kids are the next pro sports star. Instead of encouraging their children to have fun and give it their best shot, they badger and humiliate their kids until children’s sport competitions lose all their joy. There are quite a few things that children and young adults can learn from winning and losing gracefully which is what the book My Losing Season by Pat Conroy is all about.
Illinidiva on January 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Actually we probably agree on most of those things. I’m not so much dodging it as refusing to connect the specific discussion of sportsmanship to all of those things.
I think that the news stories make the Dallas Academy coach sound pathetic, and that The Covenant School shouldn’t have forfeited. I’m inclined to believe the The Covenant coach when he says that he did take measures to prevent running up the score, but that it happened anyway because frankly the Dallas Academy team was totally incompetent.
But I do believe it is unsportsmanlike to run up the score in a situation like this; I do believe it is genuinely beneficial overall to stand down a bit when you’re blowing away another team. I’ve put forth a more complete argument previously in this thread but here’s just one morsel: benching your starters and/or slowing down gameplay when victory is absolutely assured serves to reduce your team’s risk of injury, and therefore increases your chance of victory down the road.
Roughly speaking I think the most balanced analysis has been provided by the coach at The Covenant School. He agrees with the idea that you don’t run the score up indiscriminately. He claims to have engaged in a number of tactics to slow down gameplay: eliminating the full-court press, benching starters, moving to a 2-3 zone. In the end he ran out the clock—they scored only 12 points in the fourth quarter. And then he refuses to apologize for what happened beyond that. He praised his girls, and their determination, their skill, their hard work, and their accomplishments.
Now he could be lying about some of his claims, but if he is telling the truth, he has the right balance in my view.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:39 AM
As I stated, you make valid points. I’m trying to think of a better way to make my point. Verbage is not coming to me at the moment. It takes everyone working to make America better, to grow. My Son’s fire teams would not, I assume, kill a UNIFORMED Soldier who has surrendered. Won’t make that comment about Terrorists since Gitmo is going dark.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Well said, nice post.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 10:45 AM
We, and most others, aren’t really that far apart…it is how “far” someone takes the win. It it is to humiliate, then the win is “pointless” in high school, whatever skills you taught, they are diminished.
I play a lot of tennis, at the club and on a team I try to win every point, but when I am matched, like in a mixed doubles format, and I know I am much better then my opponent, I drop it a notch or two.
I lose more playing these “pinch and giggle” games then I do in tournaments.
What honor is there in taking a lob out of the air and stuffing it down some 3.5 womens throat? Just to win a game.
If you know you are better, and the other team knows you are better, and the score confirms that…you have accomplished your task.
And that same honor is carried with you to the battlefield…you are looking at ways of defeating the enemy with the least amount of effort, casualties, and resources…I say you learn more from “winning” with humility and gile, then with shear aggression. Both on the court and on the battlefield.
Your son will tell you, pure aggression is not an asset…
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Sure, but it’s different in both cases. For the former, showboating is unkind. For the latter, taking that CEO out of that position is the merciful thing.
And in the future, the losing team should be paired more appropriately or at least put in a mercy rule.
Funny, I haven’t heard any of the supporters of the 100-0 rule argue against mercy rules. Why is that? If 100-0 scores are perfectly fine, isn’t there then something wrong with a mercy rule?
Yes and talking about how stupid it is, because that’s what they’re doing. Were the losing team trying to forfeit a game they already lost, I’d be talking about that too.
No, I’m not confused. You are simply misunderstanding me. I know the winning team always has that option. We were talking about the losing team having that option after the game as well, which is stupid. They already lost. What good does it do to also forfeit? It doesn’t change anything.
Exactly. What is meaningful in getting 100 points against a team everyone has beaten? Isn’t that like bragging about “scoring” with a prostitute you’ve paid? Or rather, isn’t it basically saying they can score 100 points in 30 minutes?
Actually, this comment is more ignorant. If there is no shot clock, that actually means the team had more of an opportunity to drain the clock, not less of an opportunity.
Esthier on January 27, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Terrorists have no human rights…except for the potential information that could be lost, don’t bother bringing them “in”.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Whew! I’m glad we are coming to a meeting of the minds even if we will agree to disagree on some things. I do not like getting that aggressive in argumentation. I certainly don’t like whipping out my resume in public like a blunt instrument just to make a point. But I really do believe that sportsmanship as I define it is an exercise in human decency and need not diminish our competitiveness.
mcg on January 27, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Continuing with the earlier comment that was confused about the tone here.
Certainly, but then the batter knows this and doesn’t make a fuss over it unless he wants to get kicked out of the game.
This coach got fired because he didn’t like a school policy. That happens all the time and rarely makes headlines.
The coach didn’t get fired because of the score. He was fired over openly disagreeing with a school policy.
Baldi, this is what I was talking about. Maybe it’s just a misunderstanding of why the coach was fired, but generally people here are on the side of the employer when an employee does something that violates the company’s standards, knowing full well what those standards are.
Esthier on January 27, 2009 at 10:56 AM
Nobody was talking about the losing team forfeiting AFTER the game. The talk of the losing team forfeiting was DURING the game, like after the first quarter when the score was 35-0. It was the losing team’s responsibility to end it there if they were getting their feelings hurt, not the winning team’s.
progressoverpeace on January 27, 2009 at 10:59 AM
It is somewhat scary to read some of the comments on this thread. This is not war, this is not life/death, it is a game that teaches you to be a good team player. As a coach of boys team sports, I can tell you that when my team is at an advantage in a game we start to use that to our advantage. We pass more (5 minimum), we use a new offense that needs work in a game situation, I only have kids that are not usual scorers shoot, etc. There are ways to keep the game in perspective and allow the other team to also get better. I had this happen this weekend in a tourney, and my kids came to the bench during the second quarter and we were up by 18, they all said “at 20 you want us to get the ball to Pat and pass at least 5, right?”. As my team knows what it is like to get blown out, they are sympathetic to it themselves. I have played against coaches that do the same thing when they are beating us, and it makes it a more competitive game, where hopefully my team can get better playing a better team and their team can try out new offenses, etc. As someone who has coached for years, I can tell you normally the kids are all for trying something new and giving their friends that need extra practice more playing time, it is some parents that want there kid to score 50 in a game so they can brag about it that are the problem, not the kids.
momof2 on January 27, 2009 at 11:05 AM
I think my frustration is the feeling, well reality actually, that America is turning from a Nation of winners and do’ers to one that wants everything given or “socialized” for them. We have stopped keeping score at baseball and football games… Everyone gets a trophy, win, lose, good or bad… Everyone is a winner just by “trying”. Trying is not the same as doing. Failure is not the same as success. We grade papers with “no grades”, no “red marks” because we don’t want to stifle the child by stating they got an answer wrong. We stop choosing teams, we don’t teach exceptionalism, we teach mediocrity. We teach oneness, the cult, the herd mentality. Those that strive or exhibit abilities beyond their peers are looked down upon rather than rewarded. We call Black children that are good at Math and school “acting White”. We are allowing political correctness in our schools, homes, churches and media. We will never, I repeat never, regain our once great National Pride and successes until we understand that we are the Parents allowing our children to be all “metro”. Boys can’t be boys, girls can’t be girls. I still say, to use a term from Rush, it’s the WUSS-I-FICATION of America that allows far left radical Liberals to control power.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Two lessons to be learned from this: 1. Success will be punished. 2. It is better to humiliate a team by deliberately trying to NOT play to your ability than to play the game as you were taught. Foolish.
Vashta.Nerada on January 27, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Not what I did, nor intended by my post. My Son actualy was very poor at sports. I never pushed him to play anything. He did play HS Football and I never once said anything to him but, “Did you do your best”? He said yes… I congergulated him on his play and effort, period. It was the same for his grades in school, he was a C+ at best, but he TRIED! All I have ever asked… make the efforts and work to improve to YOUR ability.
Mark Garnett on January 27, 2009 at 11:11 AM
As a matter of fact, the two coaches got together, it wasn’t one or the other, nor did I state that.
And I stayed in my position (what is now called the 3 meter man) and continued to be pummeled by the world’s best defender.
He was 28 years old, me 16…he had a family and was supported by the state, I was a kid.
He worked me over, but also showed restraint, a gentlemen and a great world class gold medalist. He knew how to win with humility, however, if I was Russian, I doubt he would have shown much “humility”. And he learned how to defend a real left handed player that was quicker then him…it was one of my highlights of my youth and taught me what real world class athletes are like…they love the competition first, they love to be challenged, and there is no honor in humiliating an opponent (unless there is another reason besides the game).
Sorry to disappoint you…the “loser” didn’t give up. National programs, nationally renowned coaches don’t do that.
right2bright on January 27, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Let’s bring the quotes back:
As I said earlier, I agree with Gretchen that if they don’t want the coach running up the score like that then they should make it a part of their policy. Since they (they meaning the people who ran up the score) didn’t, forfeiting doesn’t even seem appropriate.
Esthier on January 26, 2009 at 5:34 PM
(See, I was talking about how stupid it was for the winning team to forfeit.)
Then you responded:
Sorry, Esthier, but teams/competitiors always have the option of forfeiting.
progressoverpeace on January 26, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Then I responded:
I never said that they didn’t (have the option to forfeit). It just seems foolish. I thought you agreed on this point.
(again, talking about the winning team)
Your response, not understanding which team I was talking about:
There’s never any shame in admitting that one is not good enough to provide another with a decent game and, thus, forfeit. There was no reason for this game to continue, but it was to the losing team to stop it.
progressoverpeace on January 26, 2009 at 5:55 PM
My response explaining that:
I was talking about the winning team’s intention to forfeit.
The game’s already over. The losing team, lost. They can no longer forfeit the game.
Esthier on January 26, 2009 at 5:56 PM
Then right says (directly after the above comment):
Yes they can forfeit a game after it is played and the outcome determined.
right2bright on January 26, 2009 at 5:58 PM
(in response to talking about the losing team)
The you said:
Sorry. I misunderstood you. But right2bright answered it.
progressoverpeace on January 26, 2009 at 6:00 PM
(as though you agreed that the losing team could still forfeit)
So, yes, someone was talking about the loser forfeiting after the game. Maybe you didn’t realize I was talking about the losing team, but it’s right there in the comment right replied to.
Esthier on January 27, 2009 at 11:16 AM
Actually, in the Olympics, everyone gets a participation medal and always has. It’s obviously different from the gold, silver, and bronze medals that are handed out, but it’s still pointing out that it’s an honor to just be there. There’s nothing wrong with giving everyone a participation ribbon or trophy, especially since this is generally for younger kids. There are lessons to be learned in sports by winning, losing, or just showing up.
Illinidiva on January 27, 2009 at 11:16 AM
No, but publicly arguing with your boss always will be.
Esthier on January 27, 2009 at 11:18 AM
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