Video: Michelle on the “My President Is Black” kerfuffle
posted at 7:05 pm on January 22, 2009 by Allahpundit
Two clips, one of her explaining the problem and the other of Dennis Miller arguing that Obama himself is the solution. If you’re looking for the uncensored vid of Jay-Z and Young Jeezy ringing in the post-racial era, you’ll find it at MM’s site. Along with a lesson in tolerance from HuffPo for a far-right “whore.”
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Remind me, why is Obama black?
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:08 PM
When I heard these 2 clowns say what they said my jaw dropped. They are nothing but scum. I thought that they put that word out of commission. I can’t see how The One can stand there and not come out and say anything against this kind of trash. Boy if I said something like that I’d probably be in jail.
Brat4life on January 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM
Because if he wasn’t black, then we wouldn’t have elected the first black president.
malclave on January 22, 2009 at 7:10 PM
One Drop Rule
Aristotle on January 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
Yeah, your president is (half) black, but he was raised by his white grandparents … why IS that?
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM
Thank you – that makes my point nicely.
His supporters, ardent anti-racists apparently, are racist in labelling a man who is half-white and half-black a certified black using the logic of slavery.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:17 PM
Allah-P, don’t EVER tease me with a picture of Megyn Kelly (& the boss) again only to have O’Reilly waiting on the inside. That’s just MEAN, man.
perroviejo on January 22, 2009 at 7:20 PM
Wait what’s the problem?
DeathToMediaHacks on January 22, 2009 at 7:21 PM
Exactly!! Why is everybody saying that he is the 1st Black president rather than the first Bi-Racial president?? The Black father was not around to raise him, but that is the side everyone wants to emphasis. The Caucasian side is almost totally ignored by the MSM.
ny59giants on January 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM
Right so if your daughter came home with a “half black” guy you’d say, “he’s bi-racial, not black” LOL OK whatever. None of are purely anything in terms of race, the whole idea of America racial ideology is built upon the one drop rule. And now conservatives want to undo that. Hilarious.
DeathToMediaHacks on January 22, 2009 at 7:23 PM
BARACK OBAMA’S DAD = 7/8 ARAB & 1/8 AFRICAN OR NEGRO
BARACK OBAMA’S MOM = 100% WHITE
BARACK OBAMA IS 1/16 AFRICAN, 7/16 ARAB AND 8/16 WHITE
BOTTOM LINE: OBAMA IS NOT “BLACK”
TheMightyQuinn on January 22, 2009 at 7:25 PM
The one drop rule is derived from the bigotry inherent in slavery.
That time has passed.
It is amusing though, to see people revive it and co-opt it to further a progressive agenda. Amusing because it is inherently non-sensical.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:27 PM
Michelle is left-handed? I had no idea!
LOL, what is Fox doing with that sidebar of information?
Seriously, great analysis Michelle!
smfoushee on January 22, 2009 at 7:28 PM
Black is a social construct as well as a genetic one. It has a much to do as how you are viewed as who your ancestors are. Obama even said “I self-identify as African American – that’s how I’m treated and that’s how I’m viewed. I’m proud of it.” If seeing him as African American is somehow racist, then you must logically conclude that Obama is racist against himself.
justfinethanks on January 22, 2009 at 7:30 PM
I got nothing. What can you say? These two assclowns will never get called on it, neither one of them could find Iraq on a map. Neither one of them has any idea of how classless that was.
I’d like to think Miller has a point on the whole ‘now there’s a role model they can look up to’ thing that would make ignorant, brain dead thugs like this obsolete…but I kind of doubt it.
BigWyo on January 22, 2009 at 7:30 PM
Why is anyone surprised………..?
………… oh, yeah, the media did it’s best to hide this kind of crap.
Seven Percent Solution on January 22, 2009 at 7:31 PM
I’d like to think Miller has a point on the whole ‘now there’s a role model they can look up to’ thing that would make ignorant, brain dead thugs like this obsolete…but I kind of doubt it.
BigWyo on January 22, 2009 at 7:30 PM
Ignorant, brain dead thugs are what the democratic party thrive on.
milwife88 on January 22, 2009 at 7:32 PM
Now it’s their turn. They’re going to do everything to whites that they feel we did to them. It’s not going to be pretty.
stonemeister on January 22, 2009 at 7:32 PM
There is a segment in society that wants to live the Thug lifestyle and then wonder why they are treated like thugs…
To be fair there are others that want to idolize
the worstone of the worst in my mind Stalin was just as bad world leaders ever by naming their child after him…And, they both wonder why they are not treated with respect.
Parents and Educational System…epic fail.
cobrakai99 on January 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM
You must not have heard Jay-Z’s clarification…he’s half white so even if you’re racist you think he’s half right! :)
keepinitreal on January 22, 2009 at 7:33 PM
His supporters aren’t the ones who labeled him as such.
However, I have a question (kind of a rhetorical one that I always ask when this topic comes up): since almost all black Americans have some European ancestry, where is the line drawn between where a person is called ‘black?’
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:35 PM
oops didn’t quite finish…
“Where is the line drawn between where a person is called ‘black’ and not-’black?’
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:36 PM
these two affect moral outrage almost as well as olbermann.
i mean, rappers? what rappers say is a political issue?
eh on January 22, 2009 at 7:37 PM
“Enlightened” whites need to be able to establish how open-minded there in voting for Obama. They need to be able to tell others that they voted for him, and they need to be able to tell others exactly where they were when he was inaugurated. This makes there life, and anything to detract from that, such as his mere bi-racial status, gets in the way of their “pivotal roles” in history.
BuckeyeSam on January 22, 2009 at 7:37 PM
This is a load of crap created by Kenneth Lamb. A man who has the appearance that Obama’s father had isn’t 7/8s Arab. But ignoramuses keep on pushing it.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
Right so if your daughter came home with a “half black” guy you’d say, “he’s bi-racial, not black” LOL OK whatever – MediaHack
Was that directed at me? My daughter IS half black, so I don’t think it’d be a problem.
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
He’s just playing the game – identity politics and guilt. And it’s worked well so far. He’s not a black man, and he’s pretty far from being a typical African-American: his father was not a slave put down by whites. But he is adept at making political capital.
He had to do this – he is far more exotic than most Americans. Bi-racial, raised overseas, Harvard Grad, and on and on. He needed some popular narrative to ground his story – being the black saviour, the redeemer, suited him admirably.
Credit where it is due, he’s a very clever man.
He’s also disingenuous – as are his most ardent supporters.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:39 PM
Why did Fox put up the sideboard letting us in on the fact that Michelle is left handed?
d1carter on January 22, 2009 at 7:40 PM
I have white,black,mexican, bi-racial or mixed friends and family. Barry is the only bi-racial person I know that is considered black.
This is nothing to do with “Republicans” it’s just the opposite, this is all about the lib/democrats and I can’t wait to see it all back fire!
christene on January 22, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Sorry but it hasn’t been “revived.” Many black Americans have stayed in the social lane restricted to them up until around forty years ago. That many/most Americans want to see that particular social construct scrapped is excellent, but don’t try to pretend as if black people just dreamed up the “One” Drop Rule when Obama started running for president. I have a family that says otherwise simply by their very existence.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Somebody should remind these two scumbags that their hero Obama is going to whack their pocketbooks real hard when he introduces his increased taxes on the rich.
Your successful? You’ve made millions with your gangsta rap garbage. Obama wants your mofo money.
They haven’t a clue.
fogw on January 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Owned..again…
BigWyo on January 22, 2009 at 7:44 PM
Wonderful question, baldilocks. Taking the question seriously, I’d have to say that a large part has to do with the idea of Oppression. I have more thoughts, but I’ll bounce this off of you first.
Weight of Glory on January 22, 2009 at 7:44 PM
Wouldn’t it be awesome though, if more black American men were more likely to emulate Obama than they were to emulate “Jay-Z”?
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 7:44 PM
His supporters aren’t the ones who labeled him as such.
Not sure beyond the fact that it should be somewhere beyond the 50:50 split of black and white.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:45 PM
Douchebags, the lot of them…
Claypigeon on January 22, 2009 at 7:47 PM
When someone get’s ticked off enough at Barry,…(birth certificate)..then we will know what he really is. I’m guessing he’s more Arab then anything else, has to be some reason he wont release it….then out goes the black-American,..in comes arab-american.
christene on January 22, 2009 at 7:47 PM
The man is 50:50.
Please explain why he is a black and not a white.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Clarification: “I have a family that says otherwise simply by their very existence.” Most of these are the older members (my mom, etc.) who, while being light-skinned and having light-colored eyes were still subject to the social restrictions of the times past.
Like I said, it’s good to see those silly old conventions going away, but let’s not act as if they were conjured in 2006 by “real” “black” people.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Why?
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:48 PM
Why should I when I did not assert that?
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:49 PM
This kinda of thing needs to be highlighted every single day until the next election to drive home the point that the actual racists and race-baiters are the libs, dems and the co-conspirators in the media. The public has bought into the idea that the Dems and liberals are the tolerant and compassionate ones when in fact these race based attacks are routine for them. Just look at Robert Reich today saying that the stimulus should not got to white construction workers. WTF?
crazywater on January 22, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Obama’s election win will only make the race baiting/hustling worse….guaranteed.
jukin on January 22, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Amen.
sherry on January 22, 2009 at 7:51 PM
I will remind you. We started the thread talking about the one drop rule, which is derived from slavery – a state of affairs we moved on from a long time ago.
I still wonder why Obama has been described widely as the first *black* president – which he has by the entire world.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 7:51 PM
Racism, by any color, is still Racism….
DL13 on January 22, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Baldilocks, I always appreciate your perspective. As to when someone is called black or not black, I’m hoping that, if this presidency does nothing else good, that question will be made moot.
Buford Gooch on January 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM
I am offended by what the rappers say but I will defend to death their right to say it.
Then I will inform them of the facts and prove how they are wrong-”No more wars” um ok explain Bambi’s stance on Afghanistan again to me.
“No more iraq”, well we may pull a lot of the main body of troops out of the area,but face it we will have troops and support there for a very long time,even longer if we go into the Pakistan area,or need to take on Iran. -We need a staging platform for launching into the area and guess what Iraq is it- Thank you Pres. Bush for seeing that far ahead.
“No more white lies” well Geitner,and a few others that work for Obama are bold faced liars, and as much as Obama has flipflopped since the beginning of his campaign I could call him a liar,I will never forget that at least twice he lied about his BAIPA vote,and see how he promised a FOCA signature today, oh ya lets not forget to pay Homage to Bill Clinton who was impeached for lying under oath right????and Rev. Wright who preached that America unleashed AIDS to kill African Americans. Just because their guy got into office doesnt change the fact that he is still a lawyer and a politician. Lying doesnt have a political philosophy. Its an equal party offender.Might as well consider it part of the job description for anyone in charge of the government. Just because the MSM insulates and makes excuses for Obama it doesnt make him any less guilty of it. Thats why he is free to talk post racial but then votes “present” when the time comes to stand up for it.
One rule for me and another for thee…
canditaylor68 on January 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM
As a white man, I am deeply offended that I’m not more black. It’s very obvious my parents are GUILTY AS HELL.
Is there a camp I need to report to?
wccawa on January 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM
You make it seem as if I said this. I did not.
So you’re saying that there should be a place where a line should be drawn where someone who has African ancestry measurable by DNA is black and he/she isn’t black. Right?
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM
Thanks, Ares, this whole thing really gets my goat. He’s “black” because he looks black, that’s why. What kills me is how he chose to embrace the whole sorry African American experience as his own – even though he had no (American) slaves in his ancestry, no relatives who lived through Jim Crow. But because identity politics is what pays off for the Left, he chose to make the right Chicago politicial connections, join Rev. Wright’s racist church, and all the rest of it. He could just as easily have chosen to focus on building up the content of his character – but then he’d never have become President. So now we have an empty suit who was elected because he represents a shiny new day … what that new day will bring, we can only await in prayer.
Rosmerta on January 22, 2009 at 7:54 PM
I still wonder why Obama has been described widely as the first *black* president … – Ares
A black president who “acts white”. Before Obama came along, any black man who “acted white” was ridiculed by other blacks and called ‘wanna-be, snowflake, Uncle Tom’ and all kinds of vile crap like that.
The beautiful Mrs.737 was teased in school by other blacks kids because she ‘talked white’ or ‘acted white’ but she didn’t let it bother her, she just kept on being herself, being nice to EVERYBODY, not just picking friends based on skin color, and she ended up being elected Homecoming Queen.
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 7:56 PM
I saw this coming. x
Hoped you would have been more subtle though.
No, what I am saying is that for someone who is 50:50 down the line to choose one side and exploit it for poliical expediency is a trickster.
The fact is that he is not white and he is not black – he is both.
And the fact is he chose a side to exploit for political expediency. And it worked. Was it honorable? That’s not my call.
Credit where it is due – first rate hucksterism by way of identity politics and guilt projection.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:00 PM
If this man is his father, he’s not Arab. Senior looks like every Kenyan Luo man I’ve ever seen including my own father.
You’ll note that the “One” Drop Rule was in effect long past slavery. Half White Americans of African ancestry were just as subject to Jim Crow laws as their less white brethren–unless the former were willing to forsake those brethren, which happened often.
(I’m trying to give a history lesson minus the vitriol that often accompanies this topic and I hope that that is the spirit in which it is accepted.)
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM
I thought it was supposed to be about the content of one’s character.
They never mention that, because Barry has so very littke.
So it all becomes the color of his skin.
I don’t like his insides. (Thought processes.)
Race is meaningless, except to racists.
profitsbeard on January 22, 2009 at 8:02 PM
I guess it could be a matter of self-identification – Obama is black because he chose to think of himself that way.
But I doubt if he’d tried to call himself white, that he would have gotten far. Again, appearances are a lot of this, as far as I can tell.
baldilocks, if I may ask, did/do your lighter-skinned relatives consider themselves “black” or “white” or “bi-racial” or what?
Rosmerta on January 22, 2009 at 8:03 PM
What Obama thinks of white people in his own words, in his own voice, reading from his own book.
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Really, you answered your own question. The fact that he is considered black by the entire world is what makes him black. Race might have some genetic components to it, but racial categories are socially constructed. They are decided by a majority vote in a way. Though you might argue that self identification plays an important role too. Saying that you can’t be black if you have white ancestors is it’s own kind of “one drop rule,” and would probably disqualify a good chunk of the current African American population from self identifying as such. Colin Powell, for example, has Scottish and Irish ancestors, yet no one blinked when he was called the first black secretary of state. You can only really call identifying Obama as black “racist” if you argue that ALL racial categories are inherently racist. Which, I think, would probably make everyone in the world racist.
justfinethanks on January 22, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Like Affirmative Action? Can we now form a NAAWP? That Honky College Fund is going to be sweeeeet.
Hog Wild on January 22, 2009 at 8:07 PM
There was a sideboard? All I saw was two stunningly beautiful women. I’ll have to take another look.
backwoods conservative on January 22, 2009 at 8:07 PM
I have another question: since my mother is a black American (slave ancestry, experienced Jim Crow) and my father is African, does that mean that I’m only half “African American” and, therefore only entitled to embrace the “whole sorry African American experience” as my own just a little bit? (Relax. I’ve asked black people this.)
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM
Granted. I still contend we’re a long way past that now and that Obama chose (as he admitted) to identify as a black man first and foremost and hitch a ride on the slavery-suppression-guilt bandwagon for political ends.
I also find it hard to swallow the idea that he is a black man in political terms (Jesse is with me on this) or a white man.
It is not only accepted, it is much appreciated.
My only issue in all this is a personal distaste for race-based politics and I think Obama revels in it.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:09 PM
We have a winner.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:10 PM
If I knock up a black woman the one drop rule makes our kid white, right?
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM
… since my mother is a black American … and my father is African, does that mean that I’m only half “African American” …” – Baldi
Yes ma’am, you’re half African-American and half American of African decent.
I have a friend from Sierra Leonne who moved here and became a citizen, SHE’S a true 100% “African-American”!
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:15 PM
‘Cause everyone knows left handers are probably racist.
/s
chewydog on January 22, 2009 at 8:17 PM
High Five!
Being uniquely situated to explain the social aspect of race identification (and O’s African ancestry) I often do.
And one of the the things we as thinking people should be able to separate the facts from the falsehoods. But as the Lies become Truth and the Truth becomes Lies, that’s going to become harder and harder. And that’s why it’s tough to separate the things that are true about O from the straight up BS–they’re so intermingled.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:19 PM
I wonder how it would be received if I had created a “my President is white” shirt, if McCain had won…. Hmmmm
RightWinged on January 22, 2009 at 8:20 PM
No, I wouldn’t say that at all – and I appreciate your willingness to engage these issues so rationally and courteously. I hope I’ve come across the same, since that’s certainly my intention.
I wouldn’t get so het up about this except that I do sense Obama chose his self-identification with an eye to its political benefits. Maybe I’m wrong; I’d be glad to be.
Another thing – Obama’s clinging to his “blackness” does seem like a bit of a slap in the face to those who really have suffered for having skin a certain color. But the majority of black Americans don’t seem to agree, so maybe I’m seeing a problem where there isn’t one here.
Rosmerta on January 22, 2009 at 8:20 PM
It makes your kid mixed race. My sister would be more better situated to discuss that, however.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:20 PM
Back to the topic.
I know it’ll never happen, and I wouldn’t expect it to. A newly sworn in President has a whole hell of a lot more things to address than these two toilet bugs.
But wouldn’t it be sweet, if during a press conference in the next few days, some reporter got in a question about it and Obama just gave em’ both barrels? Kind of a ‘Time to Grow Up’ and ‘This $hit Stops Now!!!’ type thing.
BigWyo on January 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM
I don’t agree either. Why would it be a “slap in the face?”
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:22 PM
My sister would be more better situated to discuss that … – Baldi
And are your parents cool with that?
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM
I saw the Bill O. show where Ms. Malkin was called a prostitute or whore by a black male guest.
She stood up to him. I loved it.
As I said before, my daughter has her featured on her facebook. She has several of her friends checking in.
IlikedAUH2O on January 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM
One thing I notice among many Americans of all stripes–if you’ll pardon the expression: the inclination to equate “blackness” with suffering. It’s understandable. But I want to just be one of those who repudiates that notion.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:25 PM
Nah. Baldi’s 100% pure unadulterated, unhyphenated American.
JadeNYU on January 22, 2009 at 8:25 PM
Dude. My sister and bil have four kids and the eldest is seventeen. If they weren’t, the train left the station a long time ago.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:26 PM
Baldi’s 100% pure unadulterated, unhyphenated American. – Jade
Haha, yeah, that’s true, if only ALL Americans were like that! :-)
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:27 PM
I think we oughta march!
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:28 PM
Would that Obama took your line on this.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:30 PM
… four kids and the eldest is seventeen. – Baldi
Good, they’re making America an even more beautiful place! Mixed kids are the cutest! You oughta see BabyGirl737, the cutest baby EVAH!
We have a hard time related to these movies that show the parents having trouble accepting the mixed relationship because both of our parents are cool about it.
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Maybe that’s what I was doing! And you’re right, that notion should die. I’ll join your march! :)
Rosmerta on January 22, 2009 at 8:33 PM
You think appealing to the racism you’re convinced is here will somehow make your point? That’s ridiculous.
For the record, I’m with Baldi, and I don’t get why anyone here wouldn’t be. Yes, he’s considered black. Even forgetting the “one drop rule” the man looks black. White, which is really such an amalgamation as to be rendered useless, isn’t a dominate trait.
These are just facts, things not worth debating.
And Baldi, I appreciate the spirit in which you’re having this discussion. Racial topics are often awkward. Some kind candor can be hard to come by.
Esthier on January 22, 2009 at 8:33 PM
I love Michelle.
Mark30339 on January 22, 2009 at 8:34 PM
Let’s go!
Larry Elder calls the permanent suffering types ‘victocrats.’ (Does anyone know why he quit his radio show?)
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:37 PM
I don’t think anyone’s convinced that he doesn’t. Still, he’s primarily identified as black.
Esthier on January 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM
I’ll join your march! – Ros
Me too! … But, uh, can we wait until Spring? All this global warming is makin’ it WAY to cold to be outside marchin’!
Tony737 on January 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Now there’s where there would be some serious disagreement! :-)
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Victocrats – ha! I like it.
Rosmerta on January 22, 2009 at 8:41 PM
Thanks, dear. There’s enough racial discord brewing as it is (as the original subject of this thread indicates). Not for nothing have I occasionally referred to Obama as the Sower of Discord (hat tip: Dante)–and most certainly not just about this topic.
baldilocks on January 22, 2009 at 8:42 PM
And that’s my main problem here.
Using his rule-book I could identify myself as a Jew, a Native American, and a few European nationalities.
Funny thing is I identify as an American.
No political capital in that, alas.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Obviously your degree must be in Speech and not Logic.
You argue FALSE LOGIC. The One is racist against whites – but more than that, the man is a devout Marxist and hates humanity.
klickink.wordpress.com on January 22, 2009 at 8:45 PM
When people ask you your ethnicity, I assume that you do.
I also identify as an American, but that doesn’t explain why I look the way I do. American isn’t an ethnicity.
So, true. He was supposed to be “post-racial” but I think only liberal college kids bought into that. Sometimes I think we should just drop all of it and ignore it, but being open and honest about it usually works out better.
Esthier on January 22, 2009 at 8:49 PM
It’s not his rulebook, it’s the world’s. Even if he insisted that “No, I’m not white or black. I’m American.” The world would still see him as black (and American, obviously). It’s just the way that the social construct happens to be set up. It would be nice if we could stop identifying people by race at all and hold hands singing kumbyeya, but that hasn’t happened quite yet.
justfinethanks on January 22, 2009 at 8:55 PM
You know what? No one ever has.
And if they asked I’d refuse to answer.
I’ll leave race-based politics to Obama, Jesse, and co.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Sorry, not buying it.
He traded on his chosen black identity by saying things like ‘you’re not used to seeing people who look like me on your dollar bills’ etc. And it goes on and on.
Ares on January 22, 2009 at 9:01 PM
Well, whether or not he exploited his black identity (which he both chose and was chosen for him) is a totally different discussion from whether or not he can be accurately identified as black.
justfinethanks on January 22, 2009 at 9:07 PM
Yeah I find that hard to believe.
Except that you just did, right here, just 20 minutes ago. Apparently you’re Jewish, American Indian (the preferred term according to the AP Stylebook) and some European things.
There’s nothing offensive about that. My brother and I like to joke that we don’t get hang overs cause we’re Irish. That’s probably total crap, but who cares? It doesn’t make me any less of an American.
Look, I hate the hyphenated American thing as much as you do, but sometimes the backlash goes a bit too far.
Esthier on January 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM
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