Court kills COPA
posted at 1:25 pm on January 21, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
The Children Online Protection Act died today at the Supreme Court after an application for certiorari was denied without comment by the full court. The Bush administration had appealed an earlier ruling by the courts that ruled COPA an unconstitutional infringement on free speech for requiring American porn providers to impose a method of ensuring children did not access their sites. Civil libertarians also argued that the law was as ineffective as it was unconstitutional, as it only applied to sites hosted in the US:
A 13-year legal drive to shield children from pornography on the Internet ended in defeat today when the Supreme Court let the Child Online Protection Act die quietly.
The measure, which never went into effect, made it a crime to put sexually explicit material on a website for commercial gain unless the sponsor used some means, such as requiring a credit card, to keep out minors.
It was repeatedly blocked from taking effect on free-speech grounds by judges, including by the Supreme Court in 2004. The justices had also voided an earlier, even broader law passed in 1996 that prohibited “indecency” on the Web.
The outcome preserves the Web as a wide-open forum for free expression. It also leaves to parents the duty to install software filters if they wish to block pornography on their home computers.
COPA never made much sense, even if it was a bipartisan effort at controlling porn on the Internet. Most commercial providers would need a credit-card threshold anyway, if they planned on making money from the enterprise. COPA’s only real effect would have been to drive such enterprises overseas, where COPA would not apply.
Also, COPA didn’t apply to non-commercial porn, which meant than anyone posting it for free (for instance, blogs) would not have to impose such protections. That means that parents would still have to exercise some supervision over the surfing habits of their children, regardless of COPA. That’s where the responsibility properly rests.
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I will never let my kids have a computer in their room. Ever.
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 1:28 PM
Anyone who peddles porn is a complete and utter piece of absolute garbage, regardless of whether it’s legal or not.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM
2 girls and a cup are happy.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 1:30 PM
That means that parents would still have to exercise some supervision over the surfing habits of their children, regardless of COPA. That’s where the responsibility properly rests.
Soooooo last century thinking.
Parents cannot be trusted with their own children which is why we need to increase public education budgets and allow the teachers unions to decide what our kids should be taught.
Bishop on January 21, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Good news. There is no Constitutional authorization for such federal intrusion. Take it to the States.
LimeyGeek on January 21, 2009 at 1:33 PM
You shouldn’t, but for more nefarious reasons than porn, there be liberals in them thar internet waters!
rgranger on January 21, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Dammit! I am tired of having to constantly parent my child!
This ensures I’m still responsible for them!
/sarc
Badger40 on January 21, 2009 at 1:34 PM
It’s a nearly impossible task. Kids are so much more computer savvy than most parents.
Most parents would have to ask the kids to install the monitoring programs.
Put the computer out in a main room and password it so it can’t be used if you don’t authorize it. Only way to do it.
redshirt on January 21, 2009 at 1:35 PM
From my cold, dead, sticky hands….
World B. Free on January 21, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Well-OK. I guess I could use another set of state of the art microscopes. Mine are soooo 20th century!
But then I get to spank your kid when they’re being a major pain, right?
Badger40 on January 21, 2009 at 1:37 PM
“Leave Barry Manilow alone!!!”
Shy Guy on January 21, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Comcast taught me how to block “countdown / Keith Overbite”
on my cable tv
The computer stays in the livingroom where EVERYBODY can see the screen, and if you dont like that, well, too bad. Perhaps you should move out now while you still know everything…
UNREPENTANT CONSERVATIVE CAPITOLIST on January 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM
you sound like one of those typical sanctimonious religious hypocrites that gets off on porn while lambasting it at the same time.
ROFL
thinkagain on January 21, 2009 at 1:39 PM
Bill O’Reilly’s going to have a fit.
backwoods conservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:39 PM
…until my generation starts having kids. My offspring will be facing passwords galore if they try to go to the wrong places.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:41 PM
no you didn’t
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:42 PM
As it should be. Parents, be careful with your kids and the Internet. It’s not just porn you need to protect them from anyway.
Sooooo gross.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 1:42 PM
LOL. Yeah, the Fios guy looked shocked when I told him there was one TV, one computer, and one phone in the house. He said something about Jed Clampett.
Porn is easy to avoid. Don’t go to porn sites(self control!) and allow only trusted e-mail. All the tools a parent needs are already in place. They just need to take a couple of minutes to learn how it all works.
Limerick on January 21, 2009 at 1:44 PM
I’m obviously not in favor of children having access to porn, but I wasn’t thrilled with the idea of this. Parents need to be responsible for their own children.
See, that’s called parents being responsible for their children.
amerpundit on January 21, 2009 at 1:44 PM
But then I get to spank your kid when they’re being a major pain, right?
Badger40 on January 21, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Only if you are a certified teacher or school instructor of some sort. I should not be allowed to administer any sort of punishment to my kids for their transgressions, that is the role of the government, preferably a federal-level cabinet member who knows more about my kids than I do.
Bishop on January 21, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Kids will always be ahead of parents on the technology front.
Who even knows what a computer or porn will be like in 20 years.
Maybe the holodeck?
redshirt on January 21, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Yes he did!!
BTW lorien, that is disgusting.
Lance Murdock on January 21, 2009 at 1:47 PM
Lemon parties for everyone!
Suh-weet!
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Parental responsibility? OH NOOOZ!!
Lehosh on January 21, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Not when a ton of parents are IT professionals.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:49 PM
I have a bit of a different perspective from a number of you here, in that I worked on COPA. The effort wasn’t to remove the job of parents, but to help them. The history, as you probably know, is that the Supreme Court overturned most of the Communications Decency Act, saying it was too broad. COPA was an effort to tackle only a portion of the porn online (hence, all the areas it didn’t cover, no pun intended). It was also a recognition that kids surf the Internet at school and the library, too, where their parents may not be with them and have a reasonable expectation that they will not be exposed to porn.
As a lover of the Constitution, I don’t like the federal government involved in much. The problem was that the courts had ruled that states couldn’t place restrictions on the Internet (falling, as does apparently everything, within “interstate commerce”). This leaves the feds or no one, until we have a different Supreme Court. And, anyone who’s used the Internet at all knows that a) you can stumble across this stuff or have it come at you in your email, and b) porn purveyors give lots of photos before ID requirements, to entice people to pull out their credit cards.
I wish I had a perfect solution. I don’t. But I do know that as a society, we expect smut peddlers in the “physical world” to put their filth in wrappers, or to be located in a certain area of town where kids probably won’t be. There is no equivalent online.
DrMagnolias on January 21, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Get the goatse out of here, tubgirl.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Charles Rust-Tierney, an ACLU head who advocated against the COPA, was himself seized with child porn. Anyone know what happened to this case?
24 February 2007
The Washington Post
An Arlington County youth sports coach and former ACLU chapter president was arrested on child pornography charges by federal agents who accused him of viewing Web sites filled with explicit images of pre-pubescent girls. Charles Rust-Tierney, 51, of Arlington was charged with receipt and possession of child pornography. He was ordered detained pending a preliminary hearing Wednesday. Prosecutors said Rust-Tierney coaches various youth sports teams in and around Arlington. A 2002 Virginia ACLU newsletter identified him as the group’s president.
Gee…I wonder who on the Supreme Court has a vested interest in covering up for crimes by ACLU jocks?
Western_Civ on January 21, 2009 at 1:50 PM
Mom, is that you? (not insulting, I promise; I love my mom)
There’s no reason parents can’t educate themselves and stay ahead of their children. My husband’s in the IT department, so I’ll be disappointed if we have kids who can bust through what he can make them deal with.
Plus, I agree with everyone else on not letting them have a computer in their rooms. If the computer is out near the kitchen or dining room, even tech savvy kids won’t be likely to search for porn knowing anyone could walk in on them at any moment.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 1:51 PM
School and library computers are public property. They can be firewalled on their own, without additional laws.
If states/cities will not police their computers, that’s their issue and the people should take it up with them.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Well that’s insightful. Don’t go too far out on that limb there Snappy.
The Race Card on January 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Interesting. Thanks.
Dude, I need a way to filter you out. I’m eating lunch here!
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 1:53 PM
You sound like a typical idiot. You don’t know a damn thing about me.
I have a wife and before that I had actual relationships with actual women.
Stroking off to pictures of nekked girls is for 12 year olds and complete losers.
But hey, to you, perhaps porn peddlers are your heroes. That’s an interesting perspective.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 1:53 PM
Well I am certainly a No Child Left Behind Qualified instructor! But should I have had to take classes in passive corporal punishment?
Badger40 on January 21, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Another guy who got his feelings hurt because I berate his heroes.
Go hug your Hugh Hefner bobble head doll and tell him it’ll be OK.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 1:54 PM
With the exception of blocking software, something that should be a given in public schools, which should heavily monitor the Internet activity done on school property anyway.
Kids have no privacy in school.
Tubgirl is even worse. As a warning to everyone here, you do not want to Google it. I promise. It’ll haunt you, forever.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 1:55 PM
There are underage teens who are “sexting” each other — sending pictures of themselves sans clothing. COPA would just send everyone to look at Danish websites. Er, so I’ve heard.
rbj on January 21, 2009 at 1:55 PM
If you value the sanctity of your mind’s eye, do not Google what these men say in this thread. Please trust me. AUGH.
TheUnrepentantGeek on January 21, 2009 at 1:55 PM
Sure. Everyone acts offended, but they know what I’m talking about. That’s why it’s funny.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Yeah, that’s why there’s also movies and games now.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Great. The temperance movement has been zombified.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
The worst is one with 2 asian chicks and eels. I forget it’s name; but that was disgusting.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Capitolist? LMBAO.
Which capitols are conservative? Is your unrepentant-all-caps passion used on behalf of the people or just the buildings? Which capitol is your favorite? I’m fond of Helena. Bismark is pretty cool too.
Dumbass.
The Race Card on January 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
For the curious, if you must: head to urbandictionary.com and look stuff up. You might be marginally less scarred by the written description without having to actually observe the Cthulhuian horror here mentioned.
TheUnrepentantGeek on January 21, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Unfortunately, this isn’t how it works. The ACLU has challenged both schools and libraries that try to use filtering technology, even if they allow adults around it–they claim that it puts an undue burden on an adult to have to ask a librarian for a code.
DrMagnolias on January 21, 2009 at 1:58 PM
You are absolutely right, however, you know that most parents won’t. This election just proved that 53% of this nation wants a government that will take care of them. What % of parents are IT professionals?
redshirt on January 21, 2009 at 1:58 PM
I torture my fiancee with that one.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:59 PM
Great. The temperance movement has been zombified.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Ah yes, that’s what I want to do, ban stroke material. Idiot.
I’ll be looking under your mattress for your Penthouse! No freedom!
I don’t give a damn if losers want to peddle porn or pathetically stroke off to it. Have a field day, jerky.
I’m just saying in my opinion, people who peddle porn are pieces of garbage and people who use porn are losers.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:00 PM
I don’t have children but I
wasstill am a child so I happen to have a bit of expertise in this category. My dad thought he had cleverly hidden 3 playboys (One of them being August 1964 for those of you that appreciate quality.) By the time that summer ended I think every kid (my sisters and their friends included,) in the next couple adjoining neighborhoods knew where they were, how to get to them, and when the best time to get them was. None of us turned out so bad, have any apparent social abnormality, and we still appreciate the MI techniques we employed to achieve the peeks.You cannot watch your child 24/7/365 and with any luck your child will inherit something about you that contributes to their sneakiness. With the greatest luck, your child will travel somewhere forbidden and return quite well adjusted from the trip. It will spare you some difficult esplainin’. Get your kids computers and lay down the law and enforce the law, but let them be kids.
ericdijon on January 21, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Peddling porn has got to be the sickest occupation ever!!!
christene on January 21, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Dude. The internet is for porn.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Yeah, pictures are sooo 1998 dial-up.
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 2:02 PM
You realize that we all know that you are referring to yourself, right? Spelling words like “naked” in l33t speak is a sure sign that you wack that pud…all day long.
No biggie. If you have a **** and don’t masturbate, then you must have very short arms. Grow up.
The Race Card on January 21, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Three exclamation points almost makes me believe you.
The Race Card on January 21, 2009 at 2:03 PM
We’re thinking of having a computer in the kids’ playroom, the only stipulation being that it will not be hooked up to the internet. My kids have their computer games, but I’m tired of them hogging the main computer.
It’s nobody’s job to protect my kids from porn except mine and my husband’s.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Sickest, as in “best ever” … I totally agree!
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Good riddance.
RD on January 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM
Yeah, but we know that the government can’t. Even if a parent isn’t an IT person, the real easy fix is to only allow kids on the computer for a certain amount of time and have it supervised.
Since when is anyone given the right to access porn on public property? Last I checked, the public library doesn’t stock Playboy.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM
I don’t think Ed envisioned the thread heading in this direction.
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Like Wikipedia/Wikimedia. I mean, I love the site as a handy reference tool, but there is still some seriously messed up stuff on there.
Who needs that many detailed bondage pics, for instance?
Abby Adams on January 21, 2009 at 2:07 PM
*ahem*
This.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Yes, grow up and acknowledge how wonderful stroke material is.
I mean, especially for people who can’t related to, well, actual people, like you.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:08 PM
How often do you need to ‘reference’ bondage?
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Yeah, I’d have to say the thought of people looking at porn in libraries squees me out… Adult material is best viewed in the comfort of one’s own home. Not because it’s bad or evil, but because it’s a personal, private hobby.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Heh.
Yeah, back when loading one meant you’d see one tiny line at a time for at least ten minutes, which almost made it exciting.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:10 PM
It was kind of like a movie.
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 2:11 PM
There are two reasons I favor HA for my daily read.
1. HA is the best site on the net.
2. lorien1973!!! – best anti-foul mood med I can find!!!
~B
Brian on January 21, 2009 at 2:11 PM
I don’t want to tie the conversation down in numbers, so I’ll just say that it can come up time and again.
/intended.
Abby Adams on January 21, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Yeah, people should learn from Pee Wee Herman.
Well, there’s certainly a precedent for it.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:13 PM
For pathetic losers.
But who am I to judge?
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:15 PM
What I’m having difficulty with is that an official of the government or a corporation can be terminated or go to jail for having porn on their computer but the source of such are allowed to be in business. Something is wrong with this picture….?
DL13 on January 21, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Hey, my (former) sister-in-law upped the ante on my niece. No computer at their home. Ever. (Of course, Daddy has his at his place.)
newton on January 21, 2009 at 2:17 PM
The best chance at managing porn on the internet was the creation of the .xxx domain and the creation of laws to encourage porn peddlers to go there or else (I have no idea what the “else” would be). Then Micrsoft, Mozilla, Apple, et al. could set up their browers to block this top-level domain by default.
WashJeff on January 21, 2009 at 2:19 PM
The difference between company policy and a legal business can be a difficult concept, I agree.
lorien1973 on January 21, 2009 at 2:20 PM
That’s a good question.
BadgerHawk on January 21, 2009 at 2:20 PM
You seem to have decided that already.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Late to the bandwagon, but who exactly are you to judge? The only person in my life that has that power is my husband, and quite frankly, he doesn’t have to.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Porn , or the real thing. Well the real thing has its plus’s, but so does porn. Porn never tells me to take out the garbage, or yell at me for leaving the toilet seat up, or asks me what i am thinking.
MDWNJ on January 21, 2009 at 2:28 PM
It seems that nobody in this discussion is willing to admit that the other side has a legitimate issue.
Every society–every society–has cultural rules on what sexuality children may be exposed to, and when. The exact rules differ; the responsibility for them differs; what does not differ is that they are universal and they seem to fulfill a real need. The pedophiles want to get the children sexualized young; that way the children will grow up with a strong tendency to pedophilia. And while some societies have legitimized ephebophilia (sexual desire for adolescents) almost all recognize that pedophilia is harmful or evil. Even where these things are tolerated, they are rarely celebrated.
The internet is a “space” that is becoming as real as the physical space we live in. We expect that certain things will not be done in public or presented in public, and the courts have upheld our right to that expectation. We expect in the physical world that we will not be confronted by things whose effect is to sexualize our children. If we are to have freedom of movement in the virtual world, we need that same expectation to be granted us.
The question is how to do it, and where the burden lies. SCOTUS seems to be very good at saying “don’t put it here” and “don’t put it there” but they are not willing to make the hard decision about where to put it, nor are they willing to let others make that decision.
SCOTUS’s philosophy seems to be “let the good times roll, pick someone to pay for it, rights for all and damn the wrongs.”
Bill Whittle has a very good article on responsibility over at ejectejecteject.com
njcommuter on January 21, 2009 at 2:28 PM
So I’m the bad guy for saying that people who peddle porn are pieces of garbage and people who use porn are pathetic losers?
Tough. Every single serial killer and sex offender out there has pounds of porn in his residence when the police search.
Not saying that every pornhead is a sex offender, just that it twists the mind.
Porn is not healthy, it’s sick. And the very last thing it is is “Adult”.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:29 PM
I only said that you seem to have already decided that your place is to judge. What you make of that comment is really your own.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:30 PM
It’s a free country.
If you buy porn, you prop up the pieces of garbage who peddle it, who exploit the people in it and who sell it to sick perverts who rape and murder other people to satisfy their sick fantasies.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Maybe that is because our founding document, the Constitution, has Freedom of Speech as one of its primary freedoms…
While I see no RIGHT to not be offended.
Lets see… Pursuit of Happiness? check…
Ability to enforce my morals on you?… uh … no…
Romeo13 on January 21, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Not all porn is made by sick perverts, and it’s not sold to exclusively sick perverts, but I think you already know this. I have never raped or murdered other people, period.
There is high quality stuff, and there are the dregs… just like in any other industry. I know a few people who have made films, of their own accord and free will. Husband/wife sort of stuff, produced at home. Who exactly does this exploit? I stay away personally from most of the internet crap, simply because I know it’s low quality to begin with.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Yes, that’s exactly why the Founding Fathers risked their lives to establish this country, so that someday, girl-on-donkey films could be posted on the internet.
I have a dream . . .
Porn will never be banned, quit quivering. It would be just as useless as prohibition.
Doesn’t make it any less sick or pathetic.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:37 PM
Well, yes it is.
Probably not, but it does fund them.
And if you think most of the actresses in those film are just girls working their way through law school, they’re not. Many of them are underage, hooked on drugs and in debt to the pieces of garbage who make these films.
And the garbage who make these films are all connected to organized crime. If you try to make a porn film and you don’t give organized crime a cut, your next film will be a snuff film.
If you think porn strengthens you marriage, good luck with that, especially as you age.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Don’t lie. We all know that your blog is just a front and that you’re really reading Hot Air from cell block #9.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:42 PM
When are you moving away from the big city? Maybe some fresh air will do you some good… because you’re not even making sense any more.
And my marriage is quite fine. Gets better by the day, whether we have the tv on or not. : )
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Um, I’m pretty sure Ed Gein didn’t have any porn.
However, every single serial killer had food in their kitchen, too. They also all owned knives. We should get rid of knives and food.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Your revulsion at porn is no doubt caused by your mortifying disappointment at the cancellation of a mexican cabaret act you planned on seeing – hence your HotAir nickname.
Perv.
LimeyGeek on January 21, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Dude, I wish I was in cell block #9. I mean, no sticky-nosed 3yo yanking on my leg all day! Sounds like a vacation.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I’m sorry but that sounds like a Lifetime movie of the week.
Commercial porn is regulated. If the girls are underage, someone’s going to jail. Joe Francis learned this lesson the hard way.
Esthier on January 21, 2009 at 2:45 PM
I wish the courts would make up their minds!
In the recent past the courts said that parents are not solely responsible for their children, e. g, education, abortion, and so on, telling parents that they don’t have a right to know that their daughter is being raped and spirited off to abortuaries to kill their grand child – parental notification? UP YOURS!, and parents were told by the courts that they don’t have the right to manage what sexual information their child is exposed to, and the school can spread absurd political and religious poppy cock, e.g. Islamic propaganda, sanitizing their violent, hate filled religious beliefs, and more, telling parents that the public education system can indoctrinate their child in any way it wishes.
Are parents responsible for their children, or is it the state?
William2006 on January 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM
I’ve heard about those shows but we never got to a port where they were available, they were more valuable there as entrees.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Much as I agree with the idea that porn (and the patterns the brain learns from it) are harmful to the mind, I think the way you’re expressing yourself here is damaging your point.
But anyway. You really can’t legislate this stuff out of existence. Messing with the Internet via congress is a fool’s errand. You’re seriously better off leaving it alone for people to make their own choices.
TheUnrepentantGeek on January 21, 2009 at 2:49 PM
I’m sure the regulators do a bang up job at that and there’s no possibility of bribes, etc.
Did I stumble into Daily Kos? Porn is being defended along with an allegation of complete competence on the part of our government?
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Commercial porn is dying. Seriously, who actually pays for that stuff anymore? The amateur stuff (often shot overseas) in the depths of the Internet that’s so frightfully easy to access? Not so regulated, methinks.
TheUnrepentantGeek on January 21, 2009 at 2:52 PM
A point I’ve completely conceded. No desire to re-enact prohibition II.
I’m just repulsed by how socially acceptable it is even among conservatives.
I disagree. The few of us who think it’s harmful and exploitative of people need to speak out, since there are so many cheerleaders for it.
It’s not good for people, for relationships or for children. You can be against something without wanting to ban it, I can’t understand why people have so much trouble understanding that.
NoDonkey on January 21, 2009 at 2:53 PM
And porn raped my mother. And killed my father. And my dog. And then raped my dead dog. And crapped in my cereal.
MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 2:54 PM
It’s not the government’s job to shield children from porn on the internet. Nor is it the government’s job to instill your morals into my family. I don’t see how these two statements are the providence of DailyKos, as opposed to being something people agree with on Hot Air. We’re not all social cons here.
Anna on January 21, 2009 at 2:54 PM
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