Mark Garnett on January 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM

Truer words have never been written here at HA

bullseye, I really don’t mean this as a personal attack because you sound like a decent guy, but you sound unhinged. If you don’t mind, define Marxism as you see it and then play out hypothetically how you see Obama implementing his master plan to turn the USA into a Marxist state.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 2:11 PM

well, I do condsider your reply to be ad hominem. The question here is which path Obama wants to lead us down. Every indicator I see is that he wants to steer us away from Capitalism toward Socialism and ultimately marxism.

BTW – Can you tell me where you got at least your master’s in Psychology or where you picked up your extensive experience that allows you to determinine “I’m unhinged”/ Your comments sound like the practice of psikhushka or “Punative Psychiatry” in the old Soviet Union.. IOW, when someone speaks out, label them crazy. I think you also tried this with progressoverpeace..

Anyway, let’s take a differnt take here. Suppose a guy gets elected president and

1. His father was a vocal and active Klansman. His mother also was heard to say things in support of the Klan
2. His mentor was a Kleagle of the Klavern and wrote books about the glory of the Klan (along with being a known pedophile)
3. When he went to college, he sought out Ayrian and Klan Leaning professors.
4. The phone number for the Klan is listed as being at his residence
5. He launched his political career at the home of David Duke.
6. When a plumber asks him about what He’ll do for blacks he replies with “We shoulda never done that civil rights thing. Keep it seperate but equal”

you get the picture… I certainly would not want this person in ANY position of power, not even dogcatcher. His supporters could ask me to define the KKK, and scream bloody murder that there is no evidence that he is an Ayrian or KKKer but I could never trust that person.

So, tell me how Obama and socialism/marxism is any different from the hypothetical case I outlined??? It isn’t .. Obama’s own words, written and spoken, along with his actions show which way he leans.

progress, I think you’re way, way over thinking the Obama is a Marxist thing. The proof will be in the pudding obviously, but IMHO, you’re way off base and kind of out in left field on this one. Let’s respectfully agree to disagree.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. I had to come out of left field because that’s where BHO lives :)

BTW, I think you’re being way too hard on McCain.

I don’t think so. I hold myself back when talking about him, usually.

If you’re honest and really do your diligence, I think you’ll discover that McCain is as he says he is, a direct descendant of Goldwater/Reagan conservatism.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 7:33 PM

Well, to be honest, I don’t really care who or what ideology he may follow. I don’t subscribe to any individual’s thoughts as the basis of my political ideas. If anyone else expressed the same ideas as McCain I would have the same attitude. And, BTW, I’m no great Goldwater fan. And I highly doubt that Reagan, who rightfully called the USSR the “evil empire” would have bent over backwards to accomodate a Marxist/socialist/whatever you want to call him like the idiot messiah, as McCain clearly did.

Just one illustrative note to digest about how McCain ran against BHO – McCain went out of his way to say that the idiot messiah was an “honorable” man, only to have BHO release a campaign ad right afterwards calling McCain “dishonorable”. Do you remember that? Just one instance, but there are tons of these.

But look, my utter contempt for McCain is obvious. I make no attempts to hide it and am willing to pull up example after example demonstrating why I hold it. But, we’ll disagree on this, too.

wise_man, not sure what your issue is my man.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 4:42 PM

wise_man’s issue is this:

He goes ballistic with any talk about McCain that is not blind worship. He got into an argument with a few commenters who noted, quite accurately, that McCain defended BHO more than he defended Sarah Palin. wise_man launched into an idiotic tirade about how McCain never defended BHO, to which I asked him the question of whether he considered BHO to be a socialist (since McCain went out of his way to defend BHO against the charges of being a socialist that a very scared man had raised during one of McCain’s town halls, saying that he was very scared for the future). If you recall, McCain incorrectly told the man that he had nothing to fear from a BHO Precedency (because McCain has an IQ of 55). In asking wise_man if BHO was a socialist, by wise’s own estimation, he would have had to admit to that instance of McCain defending the idiot messiah, and being totally wrong in his defense. From there, the rest of McCain’s insane defenses of BHO would come spilling out, and that would crush wise_man. wise_man realized this and refused to answer the straight question of whether BHO was a socialist, lest he clash with his idol, though wise had no problem stating the obvious – that BHO voted to the left of self-proclaimed socialist Bernie Sanders.

As to BHO being a Marxist, there’s very little question that he is. He looks at everything as a class/race struggle. To him, there is nothing more important than that. He views everything from this lens. He sees some urgent need for social change (that was the basis of his whole campaign) and destroying the rich is an integral part of it.

BHO’s disdain for the law, as he sees it infringing on the class struggle, is very evident as he was not shy about explicitly stating that he wants judges who use empathy in making their decisions, as opposed to law, (a view that, in and of itself, should have had him booted from the election and thrown out of our government, as we are a nation of laws). This is the manifestation of his Marxist leanings showing up in his “legal” theory.

On top of that, BHO thinks that government should, ultimately, be running the means of production and making all major decisions for society. He does not promote this directly (except in cases where he thinks he can slip it through, as with bailout packages and enviro-nut legislation that will weaken industries enough that they will only be able to survive with government money, and, hence, government control). We see this in the auto industry, where the Congress is dictating to Detroit what actual cars they have to produce. To be fair, this is a general Democratic idea these days, as it was started long before BHO got his Precedency, but the acceleration we will see in the coming economic (and, unfortunately, thanks to moronic policy, monetary) turmoil will make the Chinese state look like Hong Kong capitalism compared to what we will have – if we have anything left, at all.

The evidence of BHO’s love affair with Marxism is rife throughout his record (at least the record that we are allowed to see). He tried to lie about some of this as the campaign went on, but the record remains, and he couldn’t help himself from letting little pieces pop out here and there. There are quotes out the wazoo showing this, but the fact is that you can always know how BHO will come down on any topic – just view it as a class/race struggle (with the assumption that the poor and the black are always in the right and deserving of everything) and the answer will magically appear. In this, BHO goes beyond Marxism straight to hate.

There are many other specifics to this discussion, but this is the general framework of it. If you don’t believe me, just wait and see what the idiot messiah does during his Precedency.

Here’s my answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Ta DAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wise_man on January 21, 2009 at 4:26 PM

The question wasn’t asking you to define socialism, as dakine asked Esthier to do. The question was whether you believe Obama is a socialist, or not. Yes or no.

Like I said, you’re too gutless to answer.

I notice you also haven’t answered how you went from calling me cheese eating to cheese in a can eating. Also, on what basis have you determined my weight?

and she wrote the wiki pages as well! Thats just FKING AWESOME!!!!!!

wise_man on January 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM

I very well could have. It is user edited.

Though I really don’t see what you’re getting at. I used wiki to explain my beliefs. Had I viewed any of those terms differently, I could have cited something else that would illustrate that better. I wasn’t under the impression that dakine wanted an essay from me in my own words.

I could have done that if asked, but I thought the goal was for him to understand where I was coming from, and linking to wiki accomplished that.

I don’t understand your issue here.

Then answer the question, would you call BHO a socialist? Yes or no.
progressoverpeace on January 20, 2009 at 6:01 PM

Here’s my answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Ta DAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MadisonConservative on January 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM

and she wrote the wiki pages as well! Thats just FKING AWESOME!!!!!!

http://chickaboomer.blogspot.com/2009/01/michelle-obama-pulls-train.html

I think he wants more government than I believe to be wise or prudent…the usual conservative vs. liberal dichotomy in other words when it comes to the role of government. The rest of it seems to me to be kind of idle hyperbole.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 3:58 PM

Understandable. It just seems the disagreement is over how much more government he wants.

I’d say we’ll have the next four years to see, but if Obama has anything truly radical in him, he’s smart enough to wait until getting a second term or until his last months in office, whichever come first.

I will say this, no matter how hyperbolic the conversation got here, I think it’s safe to say that most people here would like to be proven wrong.

Since you dodged it…

wise_man on January 21, 2009 at 3:32 PM

She didn’t dodge it. She answered it directly, and provided external reference. You haven’t even had the guts, a day later, to answer a simple question with a simple yes or no.

Basic stuff for most, but not dakine.

I’ll ignore you takingsides, well, because you’re an ass right.

Again, what’s a “Marxist state”? (and don’t quote the hogwash from Wiki) If you admit to a transitional period, you’ve destroyed your own premise.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree yet again.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 3:47 PM

I feel that’ll often be true. I prefer a world like that, honestly.

I think it’s easier to look to actual examples of current communist governments and then compare what they do to Obama’s stated policy positions, rather than speak in the abstract.

Communist isn’t necessarily the same as socialist or Marxist, and I think that may be some of the disconnect here.

then does that mean you think it has redeeming qualities as a political and economic philosophy?

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 3:37 PM

It means that I think it comes from a good place, for most people. I believe Marxists want to help people and see true human suffering and look at the only means they believe they have at their disposal to help, the government.

I use those words, because I very regularly interact with advocates of true socialism and true Marxism. They’re the ones who praise Obama with these words.

So I’s say yes and no. I don’t think it’s a worthwhile economic policy just because I don’t believe that it produces the best economy, but on the other hand, I do believe policies driven with the interest of ending human suffering do at least have some value that can be useful whether or not the resulting policy as a whole is.

Obviously he wanted to know your take on this, as to how it applied to Obama.

Yeah, I linked wiki for the full definition so dakine would know exactly what I meant when I used the words, and then I discussed at length why I believe those words fit him.

Please let me know where I failed to directly answer the question.

Well, if he was logically consistent, that is. And we all know that he’s not.

dakine on January 21, 2009 at 3:18 PM

I actually wasn’t using it pejoratively, which is why I was hoping you’d provide something a little more concrete in response. It’s a little disappointing that you’ve dismissed me so quickly.