Andy McCarthy’s excellent, ballsy piece

Living in San Diego County I’ve got a high regard for the Border Patrol agents and a very low regard for their supervisors and administrators. The guys on the line get attacked frequently and some are wounded or killed in the line of duty. They maintain their discipline in the face of great provocation. They’re ballsy. Andy M. sitting at his keyboard siding with GW’s pal Johnny is not what I’d call ballsy.

The Border Patrol agents and their union has stood firmly behind Ramos and Compean from the beginning. The government has been caught lying about the case. The most famous incident was the slander made up by an ICE administrator that Ramos and Compean had confessed guilt and had discussed prior to the incident that they were going “to kill some Mexicans”. That was acknowledge by DHS to be a lie the next day I believe.

Another lie is that they failed to fill out their report. Their union specifically does not allow agents to write shooting incident reports. That is solely the job under regulations of the supervisors at the site. R & C only were required to orally report. Which they did. Another lie fed to the media by Johnny Sutton.

As to the witness against them, Andy doesn’t make clear that the supervisors on scene could have been charged since they were the ones who actually falsified the reports. Sutton gave three agents immunity to testify; only two did I believe. All three of those agents had given several versions of the facts to Sutton. He got them to testify to the version he wanted. They were all subsequently fired from the Border Patrol for purjoring themselves during the investigation.

Whenever the field agents and local supervisors let loose and do their job too effectively Washington and their federal attorneys and managers shut them down. Out here it’s damn well clear who is for enforcing the law and who is for looking the other way.

I’m glad they’re free. The only criticism I have of either of the officers is regarding agent Ramos’ marksmanship.

I’m still waiting for you to explain these things:

1. Why was Sutton allowed to hide evidence that there were supervisors on the scene? Would this not have swayed the jurors that there was ZERO intent to cover up the shooting? (I recommend watching the Lou Dobbs video at the link)

2. There were other agents on the scene. Not one of those agents reported the shooting at the time. It wasn’t until the Feds got involved did they report anything about the shooting. Why didn’t they report it? If the shooting was illegal, did the supervisors not have a duty to report it as a bad shooting? This leads to:

3. Does this not make them culpable, as much, if not more than the R&C? Then why weren’t they also charged with conspiracy?

4. Much of the case was based on the fact that Davila was “unarmed” At least one of the jurors stated that if it was known that Davila had ran drugs he would have discounted his testimony as less than credible. Unfortunately, the judge did not allow that to be used to attack the credibility of the witness. Why not, unless they wanted to railroad these guys at all costs?

You may not want to hear it, but the Border Patrol is better off with these two serving as Poster Children for what could happen if you stray away from the rules. Dopers don’t have any rules…Law Enforcement in the UNited States does.

CapitalistPig on January 20, 2009 at 12:29 AM

Utter crap. They were professionals at all times. One time, they get railroaded and they’re bad? Don’t think so.

The fact is that Sutton has had a thing for sucking the c0ck of the Mexican Consulate in that region. When they ask, he obeys. The number one point against you is that Gilmer Hernandez was prosecuted by Sutton for a shooting that the TEXAS RANGERS STATED WAS A LEGAL SHOOTING. He reported it as required by law, yet he was prosecuted by Sutton. Go figure.

You need to quit living in a fantasy world idea that the government only prosecuted based on law and not on political expediency. Just look at Timothy Geithner and his lack of prosecution. Yet, these same IRS people will go after anyone else who made an honest mistake.

1. If it was so common to shoot at drug runners, I’m sure some illegal alien rights group/journalists would have happily set up a blind and filmed away at agents randomly shooting.

2. If this so common, why didn’t the government go after the Supervisors who surely must have encouraged it? Why give the person who is most responsible (Richards) for “random shootings” full immunity? The prosecution surely wouldn’t give the Godfather immunity to get the conviction of a hitman.

Since it is the Wild West, why punish people trying to protect the citizens. Wyatt Earp wasn’t innocent by any stretch of the imagination. Another example is the Shootout at Campos. When there is an attack, the benefit of the doubt always needs to go to the law enforcement folks. Just like when there is an attack on your property, benefit of the doubt needs to go to the one defending the property.

1. If it was so common to shoot at drug runners, I’m sure some illegal alien rights group/journalists would have happily set up a blind and filmed away at agents randomly shooting.

2. If this so common, why didn’t the government go after the Supervisors who surely must have encouraged it? Why give the person who is most responsible (Richards) for “random shootings” full immunity? The prosecution surely wouldn’t give the Godfather immunity to get the conviction of a hitman.

Since it is the Wild West, why punish people trying to protect the citizens. Wyatt Earp wasn’t innocent by any stretch of the imagination. Another example is the Shootout at Campos. When there is an attack, the benefit of the doubt always needs to go to the law enforcement folks. Just like when there is an attack on your property, benefit of the doubt needs to go to the one defending the property.

You may not want to hear it, but the Border Patrol is better off with these two serving as Poster Children for what could happen if you stray away from the rules. Dopers don’t have any rules…Law Enforcement in the UNited States does.

CapitalistPig on January 20, 2009 at 12:29 AM

Utter crap. They were professionals at all times. One time, they get railroaded and they’re bad? Don’t think so.

The fact is that Sutton has had a thing for sucking the c0ck of the Mexican Consulate in that region. When they ask, he obeys. The number one point against you is that Gilmer Hernandez was prosecuted by Sutton for a shooting that the TEXAS RANGERS STATED WAS A LEGAL SHOOTING. He reported it as required by law, yet he was prosecuted by Sutton. Go figure.

You need to quit living in a fantasy world idea that the government only prosecuted based on law and not on political expediency. Just look at Timothy Geithner and his lack of prosecution. Yet, these same IRS people will go after anyone else who made an honest mistake.

You prove my point. A crime was committed. 9 Agents total knew about it, but only 2 were directly involved. The testimony of those other 7 was utilized against the two that lied, obfuscated, and otherwise claimed “now me’ while wrapping themselves in our flag and the anti-illegal immigration movement.

No, I don’t. You mis-state the facts. Nine other officers DID NOT think it was a crime, the SUPERVISOR basically said, “Forget it happened, it isn’t worth writing it up.”

They only said it was a crime and supported the prosecution when they were told, “If you side with the government, we will make sure nothing happens to you.”

That is a legal pay-off. That isn’t establishing a crime, but legalized bribery.

i live about 4 miles from the Fabens, TX BP Station, which is the station where these 2 originated from. For reasons which I wont go into here, I am familiar with BP operations around here. Ill fill you in on a secret that not many PA’s talk openly about: You see, when the dope crosses across the river from Mexico, it is almost always in large vans, trucks stolen from nearby El Paso, etc. Trucks loaded with dope is nothing rare. Once the dopers know that they have set off a sensor, they would drive right back to the area where they crossed, as…that is where the doper’s backup was…

Prior to the arrest of these two it was common to shoot at Dopers who were fleeing back into Mexico. Partly to scare them away from the load that they had crashed into the river, partly as payback, but almost always it was completely against BP Use of Force policy. It was,,…and to some extent it is, the Wild West around here.

The fact that PA’s did such things, against policy…was a dark stain for professionalism and integrity. Many, many things have been committed in the desert under the belief that”what happens on the river stays on the river” Some good, some not so good.

Whoopy do. You live by there. You know, I live in a border state, I have had my next door neighbor busted for being a coyote and the guy behind me for being a huge drug runner. Point is. It doesn’t matter where you live. Facts are the facts.

So since you are saying that the BP agents were randomly shooting at drug runners and it was “unwritten policy”?

cont…

You prove my point. A crime was committed. 9 Agents total knew about it, but only 2 were directly involved. The testimony of those other 7 was utilized against the two that lied, obfuscated, and otherwise claimed “now me’ while wrapping themselves in our flag and the anti-illegal immigration movement.

No, I don’t. You mis-state the facts. Nine other officers DID NOT think it was a crime, the SUPERVISOR basically said, “Forget it happened, it isn’t worth writing it up.”

They only said it was a crime and supported the prosecution when they were told, “If you side with the government, we will make sure nothing happens to you.”

That is a legal pay-off. That isn’t establishing a crime, but legalized bribery.

i live about 4 miles from the Fabens, TX BP Station, which is the station where these 2 originated from. For reasons which I wont go into here, I am familiar with BP operations around here. Ill fill you in on a secret that not many PA’s talk openly about: You see, when the dope crosses across the river from Mexico, it is almost always in large vans, trucks stolen from nearby El Paso, etc. Trucks loaded with dope is nothing rare. Once the dopers know that they have set off a sensor, they would drive right back to the area where they crossed, as…that is where the doper’s backup was…

Prior to the arrest of these two it was common to shoot at Dopers who were fleeing back into Mexico. Partly to scare them away from the load that they had crashed into the river, partly as payback, but almost always it was completely against BP Use of Force policy. It was,,…and to some extent it is, the Wild West around here.

The fact that PA’s did such things, against policy…was a dark stain for professionalism and integrity. Many, many things have been committed in the desert under the belief that”what happens on the river stays on the river” Some good, some not so good.

Whoopy do. You live by there. You know, I live in a border state, I have had my next door neighbor busted for being a coyote and the guy behind me for being a huge drug runner. Point is. It doesn’t matter where you live. Facts are the facts.

So since you are saying that the BP agents were randomly shooting at drug runners and it was “unwritten policy”?

If that is the case, and that is a big if, because I know people in the NG troops who were stationed on the border and they were complaining that when they went on patrol, they weren’t even given ammo.

1. If it was so common to shoot at drug runners, I’m sure some illegal alien rights group/journalists would have happily set up a blind and filmed away at agents randomly shooting.

2. If this so common, why didn’t the government go after the Supervisors who surely must have encouraged it? Why give the person who is most responsible (Richards) for “random shootings” full immunity? The prosecution surely wouldn’t give the Godfather immunity to get the conviction of a hitman.

Since it is the Wild West, why punish people trying to protect the citizens. Wyatt Earp wasn’t innocent by any stretch of the imagination. Another example is the Shootout at Campos. When there is an attack, the benefit of the doubt always needs to go to the law enforcement folks. Just like when there is an attack on your property, benefit of the doubt needs to go to the one defending the property.

You may not want to hear it, but the Border Patrol is better off with these two serving as Poster Children for what could happen if you stray away from the rules. Dopers don’t have any rules…Law Enforcement in the UNited States does.

CapitalistPig on January 20, 2009 at 12:29 AM

Utter crap. They were professionals at all times. One time, they get railroaded and they’re bad? Don’t think so.

The fact is that Sutton has had a thing for sucking the c0ck of the Mexican Consulate in that region. When they ask, he obeys. The number one point against you is that Gilmer Hernandez was prosecuted by Sutton for a shooting that the TEXAS RANGERS STATED WAS A LEGAL SHOOTING. He reported it as required by law, yet he was prosecuted by Sutton. Go figure.

You need to quit living in a fantasy world idea that the government only prosecuted based on law and not on political expediency. Just look at Timothy Geithner and his lack of prosecution. Yet, these same IRS people will go after anyone else who made an honest mistake.

If Bush had pardoned Ryan and let him out of prison, I would have hit the proverbial ceiling.

But that didn’t happen. Instead two men who shouldn’t have gone to prison to begin with are going free, and Ryan will stay in prison to serve his full sentence, as he should.

Makes you wonder how many ever read Andy McCarty’s op-ed. I missed it before this and wish I had not.

Sergeant Tim on January 20, 2009 at 3:42 AM

You make it sound like you don’t realize that McCarthy is full of crap on this issue. My post at 8:29 might clear up some of the Sutton puppet’s failings regarding this issue.

If McCarthy is as “ballsy” as Allahpundit claims he is, maybe he will mosey on over here and have it out on the issue. I suspect he’s hiding in his hidey-hole though.

CapitalistPig on January 19, 2009 at 10:00 PM

You’re living in fantasy land..no military or law enforcment follows the rules 100%..you do the best you can with what you have under the circumstances. IOh and I live on the border…how about you? I don’t know how many times people in the military almost got in trouble becaus eof some obscure outdated instruction because some higher up needed to covershis butt. Almost invariably they ended up not being able to pursue the guys in the trenches because leadership either failed to properly train or were properly held accountable for not enforcing the policy consistently!

theguardianii on January 19, 2009 at 7:43 PM

Spot on dude!

To Allah the Pathetic (on this issue only)
Compean and Ramos are bad guys. Once Aldrete-Davila was down from Ramos’s shot to the backside, they decided, for a second time, not to grab him so he could face justice for his crimes. As they well knew, an arrest at that point — after 15 shots at a fleeing, unarmed man who had tried to surrender — would have shone a spotlight on their performance. So instead, they exacerbated the already shameful display.

And you have known them apart from Suttons monkey trial for how long? How do you know the smuggler “was down” were you there or are you going on hearsay? AS I understand he was running to a waiting vehicle…I wouldn’t have bet my life on wheter the occupants of such a vehicle might not be carrying automatic weapons which I would be ill-equipped to defend myself. Proof that he was unarmed…none but the testimony of a convicted drug smuggler..not usually carrying much weight in a trial unless he is rattin gout some Kingpin or something…he only testified so he wouldn’t end up in a stinking Federal Prison in Texas…he’d sau exactly waht the hell-bent prosecutor wanted him to say…because Sutton has some kind of vendetta man! And what about the supervisors that KNEW. Everyone always glosses over this like it wasn’t so…in the military the supervisor would be the first to go to trial. Except…we need “ahem” leadership to keep the reamining agents “kow-towed” so we can not effectively FIGHT this DAMN invasion! I think you (Allah might secretly be part of the Bush elite and you are only participating here in order to identify people for the next administration to lock up when they once again rally against AMNESTY for ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aliens…sorry had to get it off my chest , drinking green tea to calm the spirit…

This was a message sent to all boarder patrol agents that if they try to stop the flow of drugs into this country just how high up the drug cartel can go. Do you think the ransacking of the boarder patrol agents home was done by a burglar or vigilantes’..?
Badbrucskie on January 19, 2009 at 11:13 PM

Yes.

Bush used this case until the last day as a poster boy case for the hispanic victimization bloc, which he cultivated throughout his presidency. He hung up the agents to dry and threw a bone on the last day by cutting the jail time but leaving the dagger in the back. The cartels won because the smuggler collected a ton of money and Bush never spoke out against drug smugglers from Mexico during the entire time. Bush shut his mouth on this just like he shut his mouth on abuses in China, or toxic exports from China.

Bush had no problem calling Minutemen ‘vigilantes’ which was unfair, but he had a big problem calling a Mexican drug smuggler a Mexican drug smuggler or a Mexican drug cartel a Mexican drug cartel.

By commuting the sentence but not the conviction he indicated there was no change of sentiment on the issues. This was tossing some political chump change to border state conservative politicans.

I want hard a– guards on the southern border and when dealing with car loads of drugs I don’t care if a few get shot in the rear or the head as long as the car is run into a ditch.

Bush pardonned every kind of moonshiner and embezzler, both pre-meditated crimes, but had no similar sympathies towards cops battling the cartels who use immigration as a cover

CapitalistPig on January 20, 2009 at 12:29 AM

So: dishonest and tendentious prosecution is okay simply because you agree with the *result*? Or the impact on the Border Patrol organization as a whole? I don’t get it.

I’m smelling a play at ‘fake but accurate’ here. Not your comments specifically, but those demonstrating incuriosity about what was hushed/purged from the court proceedings. Tell me I’m wrong here…

If some of the things Tim Burton is hinting at are true, hasn’t Johnny Sutton earned Poster-boy status of his own?

The larger question posed here: When is it justifiable for the authorities to perpetrate a fraud in the so-called common interest?

Your comment is so filled with self-contradiction that i can only direct you to read this

The fact that, as you say:

Why, would Sutton show a lack of integrity to not acknowledge BP memo stating that 9 officers in total aided in the destruction of evident?

You prove my point. A crime was committed. 9 Agents total knew about it, but only 2 were directly involved. The testimony of those other 7 was utilized against the two that lied, obfuscated, and otherwise claimed “now me’ while wrapping themselves in our flag and the anti-illegal immigration movement.

i live about 4 miles from the Fabens, TX BP Station, which is the station where these 2 originated from. For reasons which I wont go into here, I am familiar with BP operations around here. Ill fill you in on a secret that not many PA’s talk openly about: You see, when the dope crosses across the river from Mexico, it is almost always in large vans, trucks stolen from nearby El Paso, etc. Trucks loaded with dope is nothing rare. Once the dopers know that they have set off a sensor, they would drive right back to the area where they crossed, as…that is where the doper’s backup was…

Prior to the arrest of these two it was common to shoot at Dopers who were fleeing back into Mexico. Partly to scare them away from the load that they had crashed into the river, partly as payback, but almost always it was completely against BP Use of Force policy. It was,,…and to some extent it is, the Wild West around here.

The fact that PA’s did such things, against policy…was a dark stain for professionalism and integrity. Many, many things have been committed in the desert under the belief that”what happens on the river stays on the river” Some good, some not so good.

You may not want to hear it, but the Border Patrol is better off with these two serving as Poster Children for what could happen if you stray away from the rules. Dopers don’t have any rules…Law Enforcement in the UNited States does.

As I have written, if the shooting was so legit, why not report it as required? One of the two had been previously involved in a shooting and he wasn’t “railroaded” then.. If anything, he should have been more aware of the policy regarding the use of deadly force than most PAs.

We went over this.

Richards, their supervisor, basically called no harm no foul. He said, “If we call the F.B.I. we are going to be here all night doing paperwork. We will never know who the person was that assaulted you although we’ve got the van and the marijuana.”

So basically, he told them to not worry about it. Why fill out a report that is going to do nothing but waste everyone’s time.

Reminds me of a time a illegal alien started threatening me on the road. His car had no license plate and when I called 911 to get help on my cell phone he managed to lose me in traffic. When the operator told me to meet with the police I did. When they asked if I wanted to file a report they said, “We can fill out a report if you’d like, but really the chances are nil we will ever find this guy. It’ll just cause us paperwork and since there was no physical harm, we’d just leave it as is.”

Basically, since it was a minor issue with nothing to go on, they just decided it was better to drop it than cause the extra paperwork.

The fact is, they lied. All we have as cops is our integrity. When its just you and some doper in the desert, with no-one around for MILES…that badge is all you have that separates you from the dirtbags trying to smuggle dope. Without your integrity…all you have is two guys in the desert, nothing more.

CapitalistPig on January 19, 2009 at 10:00 PM

No, they didn’t lie. If they lied, they would have also had perjury added to the list of charges. It didn’t come up, because all they had to go on that these officers “lied” was 2 agents who were given full immunity to turn on those two agents and one drug dealer who was brandishing a weapon as he fled to Mexico.

Tit for Tat, if we can’t allow testimony into court that he had a weapon, because it was one officers word against a drug dealer, then we shouldn’t have allowed the 2 agent’s testimony for the sake that they received immunity.

And talking about integrity, seems Sutton is the one who lacks it. If he was full of integrity he would not have characterized the wound as “shot in the back” when it was not shot in the back. It was a twisted side wound in the butt, normal for someone fleeing and pointing something in the direction from which he is fleeing.

Why, would Sutton show a lack of integrity to not acknowledge BP memo stating that 9 officers in total aided in the destruction of evident?

Why did Sutton lie about how he came about Davila’s name? See point 9.

Why did Sutton lack integrity when he complained that there was no evidence linking Davila to the van when there was finger prints?

Seems lack of integrity is on the side of the Prosecutor, those are the only hard evidential lies that are in this case. Everything else is circumstantial.

Tim Burton:

Seems like a lot of people involved to screw these two guys, huh? From Johnny Sutton to the jurors, to their co-workers….heck, i bet there were black helicopters up in the sky when these two started to assist in their own demise by throwing their casings into the river after the shooting, then lying about it— Ohh…you never mentioned that–

No not that many.

-Sutton is the root of it. He gave immunity to his co-workers which would give them reason to want to lie. It isn’t like it is unheard of for prosecutors to lie, after all, have you never heard of Nifong? That isn’t the only example of prosecutorial abuse.

It also isn’t like Sutton has never lied or misrepresented the truth.

-The jurors weren’t in it to screw them.

1. Courts of Law aren’t there to reveal the full truth. The only truth the jurors know is what the court allowed them to know.

2. There are jurors who under oath swore that they were pressured into voting guilty. Granted, they were stupid for not knowing that they can stand up and say know and the law can’t do crap, but after all, if 52% of Americans think Obama is a good American, why can we think they understand the Jury System.

-Their co-workers had every motivation to lie. If they lie and stick to the story that the government wanted, they get immunity. Not a bad deal, just like the drug dealer got immunity for running drugs that time in exchange of saying what the government wanted.

About them tossing the bullets. That isn’t the big of deal. If Richards (their Supervisor) said not to worry about it, would you worry about hauling them back in? If I was trying to cover something up, I’d have actually hauled them back in and dumped them away from the scene.

Tim Burton:

Seems like a lot of people involved to screw these two guys, huh? From Johnny Sutton to the jurors, to their co-workers….heck, i bet there were black helicopters up in the sky when these two started to assist in their own demise by throwing their casings into the river after the shooting, then lying about it— Ohh…you never mentioned that–

No not that many.

-Sutton is the root of it. He gave immunity to his co-workers which would give them reason to want to lie. It isn’t like it is unheard of for prosecutors to lie, after all, have you never heard of Nifong? That isn’t the only example of prosecutorial abuse.

It also isn’t like Sutton has never lied or misrepresented the truth.

-The jurors weren’t in it to screw them.

1. Courts of Law aren’t there to reveal the full truth. The only truth the jurors know is what the court allowed them to know.

2. There are jurors who under oath swore that they were pressured into voting guilty. Granted, they were stupid for not knowing that they can stand up and say know and the law can’t do crap, but after all, if 52% of Americans think Obama is a good American, why can we think they understand the Jury System.

-Their co-workers had every motivation to lie. If they lie and stick to the story that the government wanted, they get immunity. Not a bad deal, just like the drug dealer got immunity for running drugs that time in exchange of saying what the government wanted.

About them tossing the bullets. That isn’t the big of deal. If Richards (their Supervisor) said not to worry about it, would you worry about hauling them back in? If I was trying to cover something up, I’d have actually hauled them back in and dumped them away from the scene.

As I have written, if the shooting was so legit, why not report it as required? One of the two had been previously involved in a shooting and he wasn’t “railroaded” then.. If anything, he should have been more aware of the policy regarding the use of deadly force than most PAs.

We went over this.

Richards, their supervisor, basically called no harm no foul. He said, “If we call the F.B.I. we are going to be here all night doing paperwork. We will never know who the person was that assaulted you although we’ve got the van and the marijuana.”

So basically, he told them to not worry about it. Why fill out a report that is going to do nothing but waste everyone’s time.

Reminds me of a time a illegal alien started threatening me on the road. His car had no license plate and when I called 911 to get help on my cell phone he managed to lose me in traffic. When the operator told me to meet with the police I did. When they asked if I wanted to file a report they said, “We can fill out a report if you’d like, but really the chances are nil we will ever find this guy. It’ll just cause us paperwork and since there was no physical harm, we’d just leave it as is.”

Basically, since it was a minor issue with nothing to go on, they just decided it was better to drop it than cause the extra paperwork.

The fact is, they lied. All we have as cops is our integrity. When its just you and some doper in the desert, with no-one around for MILES…that badge is all you have that separates you from the dirtbags trying to smuggle dope. Without your integrity…all you have is two guys in the desert, nothing more.

CapitalistPig on January 19, 2009 at 10:00 PM

No, they didn’t lie. If they lied, they would have also had perjury added to the list of charges. It didn’t come up, because all they had to go on that these officers “lied” was 2 agents who were given full immunity to turn on those two agents and one drug dealer who was brandishing a weapon as he fled to Mexico.

Tit for Tat, if we can’t allow testimony into court that he had a weapon, because it was one officers word against a drug dealer, then we shouldn’t have allowed the 2 agent’s testimony for the sake that they received immunity.

And talking about integrity, seems Sutton is the one who lacks it. If he was full of integrity he would not have characterized the wound as “shot in the back” when it was not shot in the back. It was a twisted side wound in the butt, normal for someone fleeing and pointing something in the direction from which he is fleeing.

Why, would Sutton show a lack of integrity to not acknowledge BP memo stating that 9 officers in total aided in the destruction of evident?

Why did Sutton lie about how he came about Davila’s name? See point 9.

Why did Sutton lack integrity when he complained that there was no evidence linking Davila to the van when there was finger prints?

Seems lack of integrity is on the side of the Prosecutor, those are the only hard evidential lies that are in this case. Everything else is circumstantial.