Movie Review: Gran Torino
posted at 8:28 am on January 17, 2009 by Ed Morrissey
Gran Torino had at one time been rumored to be the latest sequel to the Dirty Harry series. While that’s not the case, one might conjecture that Harry Callahan and Walt Kowalski might have been fast friends. Kowalski, a Korean War veteran, has the same attitudes towards minorities and the same distance from the people around him. Kowalski has to face off against criminals, like Harry Callahan, but Gran Torino shows that Clint Eastwood has done a lot of thinking about the vengeance genre — and has produced a deconstruction as worthy as Unforgiven was for Westerns.
** Some spoilers ahead **
The film starts off with the funeral of Kowalski’s wife, where we meet his sons and grandchildren, who are all self-absorbed, and as contemptuous of Kowalski as he is of them. Kowalski refuses to leave his neighborhood, which has changed considerably over the decades into a gang-infested area with Hmong immigrants dominating his block. When he rescues the family next door from an Asian gang, he becomes a hero to his neighbors and slowly becomes friends with the teenagers, Sue and Thao. Unfortunately, the gang doesn’t quit trying to either recruit Thao and begins terrorizing their family, prompting Kowalski into action.
Fans of the vengeance genre know what follows from here. We’ve seen it in Death Wish and The Brave One, where the protagonist defeats the criminals by out-terrorizing them. Dirty Harry kills them dead. Walt Kowalski tries this, too, only it backfires when Kowalski realizes that the gang-bangers can’t get out-terrorized. Kowalski decides on a different path to rid the neighborhood of the gang and to free Thao and Sue for good — one which might come as a shock, although Eastwood gives Kowalski enough depth for some viewers to see where he’s going.
Eastwood gives us an interesting portrait of a man from a different age unable to adjust to his changing environment. Kowalski is a bigot, without a doubt, but more out of ignorance and habit than malice. He uses racially insensitive terms with his neighbors, but also with his friends, and Eastwood makes it clear that Kowalski doesn’t see the difference. Ahney Her’s Sue understands Walt better than Walt understands himself and in a sense rescues him from his isolation. Bee Vang delivers a good performance as Thao, stuck between his own gentle nature and the gang-bangers from his own family that threaten him. Christopher Carley turns what could have been a cardboard role as a young priest into an affecting performance, and in the end the priest inadvertently helps save Kowalski’s soul.
Gran Torino is a terrific film, one that begins by indulging the well-known guideposts of the vengeance genre and winds up knocking them down. The only off-key note in the film — and it’s a minor quibble — was the rather cartoonish portrayals of Kowalski’s own family. The contrast between the Kowalskis and the Lors could have been made with a little more subtlety. Even with that caveat, this could be one of the best films of 2008 (its release date, although it just went into wide release a week ago or so), and wouldn’t surprise me to be considered the best of the year.
Definitely not for young viewers; violence, bad language, and adult themes.
Update: It’s ironic that there is a controversy in the comments about the sacreligious use of the Lord’s name in the movie, since this has a very Christian message in the end. The language in this case seems to be ironic, as is his initial reaction to the young priest. Stick with it; it’s worth it.










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did not read the spoilers, but I cannot wait to see the film.
rob verdi on January 17, 2009 at 8:32 AM
by the way you were right about Doubt, it was good.
rob verdi on January 17, 2009 at 8:32 AM
From pluggedinonline.com:
Just sayin’.
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 8:34 AM
I guess one not to take the young children to…what one forgets, or was never taught was that Jesus, though never using God’s name in vain, was quite the curser…he didn’t mince any words when talking about the “enemy”. The words He often used were generally not the words you spoke in public.
And I am not sure when talking about an enemy that the words “God D*mn” is so much a curse or an exclamation…Jesus certainly stated that God would condemn those that did not “follow”.
Just sayin…
right2bright on January 17, 2009 at 8:49 AM
What???
If you’re joking, that’s not funny.
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 8:51 AM
Pluggedinonline does say some good things about Torino:
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 8:53 AM
99.9% of the uses of G-D are not specific pronouncements of the Lord’s condemnation. They’re simply words meant to shock & offend. You could substitute the s-word or any other profanity. And that’s the point. You don’t treat the names & titles of the King of the universe like a cuss word.
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 8:56 AM
I liked the movie but there were some really contrived and unrealistic moments, like Sue’s reaction to 3 men who confront her on the street, and Clint’s character growling into the camera, which was an audience pleaser but felt unworthy of a serious movie.
But it’s enjoyable.
CarolynM on January 17, 2009 at 8:58 AM
SPOILER QUESTION: Can someone please tell me if his dog gets killed? I know it sounds silly, but I can’t watch movies that involve bad things happening to animals.
Logic on January 17, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Nothing bad happens to the dog.
Ed Morrissey on January 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM
Not to question your, er, Logic, but since you know people get raped & killed in the movie, is that not much more tragic than the demise of a dog?
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Oh man – John – don’t start me.
After what I have been through for the past year and a half, I beginning to think either the ‘king’ is non-existent, incompetent, or just doesn’t freakin’ care.
Taking his name in vain? Big deal. From my point of view, he’s an absentee super who needs to come down and unclog the toilets every once in a while, but instead he’s sitting around in his underwear drinking beer while people suffer.
If he wants some respect, he should show some mercy.
Timothy S. Carlson on January 17, 2009 at 9:16 AM
I’ll just chime in here, again…
While I cared about all the characters, which was a credit to the film, the thought that anything would happen to the dog kept me on the edge of my seat every time the faithful animal was in a scene.
And I’d just like to note that at the end of Marley & Me, I heard more sniffling in that audience than during any other theater experience ever.
There is something about dogs…you’re right, what’s up with that?
CarolynM on January 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM
My son and I watched it the day it came out. He said now he knew why his Dad acts the way he does and why I am so hard on him.
He’s right.
Thanks, Clint. Good movie. Strong lesson.
Subsunk
Subsunk on January 17, 2009 at 9:20 AM
In case you haven’t seen The Passion Of The Christ, no one has suffered more than my Lord (& The Passion couldn’t portray the inner pain of having the sins of the world dumped on his spotless soul, nor the torment of his Father’s separation). He suffered because of his mercy, so that you, Tim, could have a joyous relationship with him, & have the power to rise above your circumstances, & have an awesome destiny in Glory with him.
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 9:26 AM
Sorry, Ed! I didn’t mean to be off topic. I just elaborated on your bad language warning, & I’m responding to responses. :)
jgapinoy on January 17, 2009 at 9:30 AM
How did an Eastwood movie review almost immediately become a religious argument…and the movie isn’t even about religion?
Just sayin’…
JetBoy on January 17, 2009 at 9:32 AM
May I respectfully recommend God in the Dock by CS Lewis.
And…if I take a good hard honest look at all the opportunities I’ve wasted, all the people I’ve hurt, all the time I’ve been given ad aquandered, all the backbiting and complaining and gossiping and all the other sins I’ve committed –and I live a pretty boring life by the world’s standards–I know full well how much mercy, and not justice, I’ve already been given. I suspect the same is true of most people on this planet, including you I dare say, the occasional Mother Teresa notwithstanding.
inviolet on January 17, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Asian gangs. Big problem in America. Typical of the Asian population here. And here I thought all those violin cases actually held violins. Proves even those with high SAT scores are misunderstood.
Let’s send Clint to Deerborn for the sequel. Or have him take on MS13. Somehow I think they’ll find some angry Christians somewhere instead.
JiangxiDad on January 17, 2009 at 9:34 AM
If you plan on seeing this movie do NOT read the review on Wikipedia. It totally tells how the movie ends. Those bastards.
perroviejo on January 17, 2009 at 9:34 AM
I actually thought Unforgiven was slow, predictable and derivative, but as an incurable “revenge flick” fan, I’d better add this new one to my mental collection.
ps: God shows lots of mercy — otherwise most of us would have been struck by lightning years ago :-)
We’re the ones who need to be more merciful…
fivefeetoffury on January 17, 2009 at 9:36 AM
Good review, but it fails to convey how funny this movie is. The best is Walt’s exchange with a white kid who thinks he’s hip-hop.
Dead Hand Control on January 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Every now and then I am quite surprised at just how religious the most industrialised country in the world really is.
Using the GD word on prime time TV wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow down here in Oz. Everytime I watch American broadcasts on cable TV here and see the GD word bleeped out, it strikes me as very odd.
Different cultures, I guess. Here the F-word can be broadcasted on TV as long as it’s not talking about the act of procreation itself. As an exclamation it is fine. “F**k Look at THAT!” is okay, “I F**ked her yesterday” is not.
cyclosarin on January 17, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Really? I think He should show some actual divine cruelty (not random disasters that may not even be His direct action). The world’s full of evil and I see very little redeemable and worthy of more mercy.
Darth Executor on January 17, 2009 at 9:44 AM
There’s nothing wrong with swearing. Give it a rest.
Darth Executor on January 17, 2009 at 9:49 AM
No shit.
Professor Blather on January 17, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Well…while I’m a fan of a well placed expletive:
[from the hilarious Enchanted April: 1920's British man runs out of bathroom yelling and swearing after a faulty bathtub tank emplosion na runs smack dab into the cultured lady he was hoping to later meet and impress: "I'm afraid I used unpardonable language!" She smiles sweetly and replies, "I thought it most appropriate in the circumstances"]
Generally though it shows a lack of respect for the many people whom it does offend, rightly or wrongly, and it teaches children who may hear you to do the same thing. And if you’re in public and not, say, in your home or alone with a friend, especially if you’re around children, it can be an inconsiderate, disrespectful, not-thinking-of-children thing to do. JMO.
inviolet on January 17, 2009 at 9:59 AM
emplosion = explosion. lol
inviolet on January 17, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Yes – but it only increases my desire to see this movie.
Sounds like a better plot line and ending than some of his movies recently.
Timothy S. Carlson on January 17, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Right there with you. I will never see Marley & Me.
Cindy Munford on January 17, 2009 at 10:02 AM
I still look forward to seeing this film, even though Ed has taken some of the shine off of it.
See, I like that old Dirty Harry, Charles Bronson type “vengeance genre”. Those are my “feel good” movies.
Perhaps that says something about me. :-o
conservnut on January 17, 2009 at 10:07 AM
Great movie. Saw it once two weeks ago, will see it again maybe tomorrow morning.
I enjoyed its touching on various themes like life, death, and acceptance (of others, and of one’s past).
Clint reminds me of my father in this movie, so it was weird, kind of like seeing my dad in the future when he is Clint’s age, as an old veteran who is stubborn as F**K.
Everyone should see it. As for the language, it really isn’t THAT bad.
F bombs aren’t dropping everywhere. Its racial language, and if you have a young teen or whatever who can understand the context, I think you’ll be fine.
blatantblue on January 17, 2009 at 10:13 AM
The Good the Bad and The Ugly
Unforgiven
Letters from Iwo Jima
Gran Torino
Yes, one of his best. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
Bradky on January 17, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Do you think Kowalski watched Bridges of Madison County? ;)
Bradky on January 17, 2009 at 10:25 AM
I really think this aspect is way overstated by reviewers.
The fact that Kowalski uses ethnic references with his friends should indicate to people that it’s just a frame of reference, not a value judgment. He uses the phrases as terms of endearment to his friends and his new neighbors by the end.
I think the judgment that Kowalski is a bigot is a product of our own PC times. He reserves his venom for behavior – gangbangers, both the AA and Asian.
In general, he’s a guy that just doesn’t like other people that much (note his treatment of his family). Anti-social, eh maybe. Bigot? Not really. You have to ignore a significant portion of the movie (how he goes to dinner and is respectful – even of the shaman) to come to that conclusion.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 10:28 AM
It was a good movie.
I would have paid to see it, but don’t think I will by buying the dvd on this one.
Clint is totally non believable when using racial slurs, but likable and feels honest the rest of the time. The distinct lack of action in the movie was surprising, but it worked.
If they would have dropped using gook and zipper head every five seconds I would have probably loved the movie. It just felt so forced, and unnatural.
Canon on January 17, 2009 at 10:30 AM
I watched it in the theater and was a little put off by the glee of some theater goers at the use of slurs — belly laughs at the terms. Of course I live in the south and shouldn’t be surprised. And the laughs came from blacks and whites in case you wondered.
Bradky on January 17, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Well, I did not like it too much. OK story idea about an old hard core guy who lives in a neighborhood going into the pit but the young actors were terrible and too much cursing. Glad I did not pay money to see it.
jed58 on January 17, 2009 at 10:41 AM
I thought this was an excellent movie and will likely see it again or get it on DVD.
And while I agree that the Lord’s name shouldn’t be misused, I think if you can look beyond the language you will see a movie with a very strong Christian theme. People talk that way; I’m not saying it’s good, but it’s a fact of life. The important thing is what the character does for Thao and Sue. Sure, his words may not be Christ-like, but what he ends up doing is very Christ-like. It shows the power of redemption, that even the most miserable, vulgar, and bigoted of people can be saved. At least, that’s what I got out of it.
VanPalin on January 17, 2009 at 10:42 AM
I saw this last weekend with my Mom. It was a great movie. I had a tear in my eye at the end and my Mom was crying. The story of Toad and how Kowalski warmed up and learned to love those eggrolls was a good one. Plus standing up to the neighborhood trash was something we all love to see.
Geronimo on January 17, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Don’t worry.
Geronimo on January 17, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Another good Eastwood movie. Enjoy them while they last. Clint is nearing the end of a legendary career. As with several of his last movies, there’s always a twist.
patrick neid on January 17, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Cindy,
The wife went to see Marley and Me with her girlfriend and came home and bawled off and on for the rest of the night. Asking me if our Golden was going to live longer than most dogs. (he’s 6) Told her that’s why I didn’t need to see the movie. She read the book before hand for goodness sakes!
thomasaur on January 17, 2009 at 10:47 AM
No, the dog doesn’t get killed or injured in the movie. Nobody abuses the dog period.
Frank T.J Mackey on January 17, 2009 at 10:51 AM
I agree with you, for the most part, although I think Kowalski does qualify as a bigot. He learns better throughout the movie, but he makes broad assumptions about the people around him (and next door to him) based on their ethnicity rather than getting to know them, at least at first. It helps set up his eventual redemption, and it’s part of the message.
Ed Morrissey on January 17, 2009 at 10:59 AM
I look forward to seeing the movie.
BTW, to the above about “taking the name of God in vain” has nothing to do with cursing. It is about doing evil in God’s name. Religious evil is the worse evil there is because one is bringing God into disrepute.
And God is not the Big Nanny in the sky. He gave us freewill and a world that acts/reacts to certain laws for a reason.
Darleen on January 17, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Spot on comment.
I grew up in the 50′s and 60′s, Bronx and Westchester. If you were to film one of our 24 hour poker games in college with Irish, Italians, Blacks and Jews the film would melt. The banter at the barber shop in the movie when Clint goes for a cut was standard. Even now on the rare occasions when we see each other, 30-40 years later, we revert right back laughing all the while. Our wives have heart attacks.
Afterwards we go back to our lives, modern times and standards.
patrick neid on January 17, 2009 at 11:05 AM
Yep. The racist comments are pretty spread around in the movie.
Also, Kowalski has his feelings because of the war. His coming to terms with his experiences leads to his acceptance of others.
blatantblue on January 17, 2009 at 11:19 AM
I would hope that the message is that he is a bigot because of those broad assumptions about people and not because he does not use politically incorrect language.
But I guess that would be hoping for too much from HollyWierd.
conservnut on January 17, 2009 at 11:21 AM
Oops! must learn to preview my comments.
conservnut on January 17, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Ed, consider the first group of people to whom he expresses contempt: His own family in the opening scene. It’s not bigotry – unless he’s bigoted toward himself too. He treats everyone with the same contempt, based on their behavior.
What’s the issue with him and his kids? Their behavior. Him and his grandkids? Their behavior. Him and his neighbors? Their behavior – this should be evident from how he teaches the kid to take care of his home and his yard, gets him a job, etc – ie teaches him to behave like a man. The people he doesn’t show contempt to are all workers: barber, construction owner, and the kid as he grows up.
I don’t see how he gets better throughout the movie. The very first opportunity for heroics, he takes. The second opportunity for heroics, he takes. From beginning to end, there is not an instant where he could step in and he did not. If anything he is a constant; the idea that the movie is about redemption is an interesting one, but fundamentally flawed – as it is not one that Kowalski would agree with. He only had two confessions to make – what he does at the end doesn’t redeem a stolen kiss or unpaid taxes. So we are left with the argument that he redeems himself of what he himself doesn’t see as flawed.
What I think it shows is that strength of character matters. Even as your neighborhood changes. And that a boy needs a man to grow into a man – surrogate fathers via gangs don’t cut it.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 11:27 AM
I should add that if the movie really were about redemption from prejudice, he would not have used the same terms in his will as he did in his life. But he does, and again, he uses them in an endearing manner.
He’s the same man in death as he was in life.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 11:30 AM
For the first time in aeons there are two movies I want to see in theaters at the same time: this and Defiance.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 11:33 AM
I LOVED Gran Torino! I don’t enjoy rough language, the Lord’s name in vain, and racist comments as a rule. However, this film was raw and REAL. A lot of the racists comments were “good natured” ribbing, a lot of them were not. It showed how rough life was in the neighborhood. It showed how hard Kowalski’s heart had become. The transformation of Kowalski as the neighborhood poured out it’s love spoke volumes to me. Shouldn’t we as Christians be loving those with hard hearts? He ended up closer to the neighbors than his own family as a result.
There was so much more there. Great movie for mature audiences! Some Christians may chose to guard their heart and I respect that. I cried like a baby at the end.
Ordinary1 on January 17, 2009 at 11:43 AM
I was just about to head out to see Defiance today when I read this review; now I’m torn.
My father came to America during that time and moved to New York City. Every now and then he would say something that would send my step-mother around the bend; he didn’t mean anything by it; that was part of how he learned English. I always took it as it was another time and different culture. Hard to leave that behind I guess.
austinnelly on January 17, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Maybe it does sound silly but I feel the same way about dogs, cats, horses AND little kids AND old folks not exactly in that order. They’re all usually so defenseless. Good thing nothing happens to the dog or I couldn’t watch it either.
kooziegirl on January 17, 2009 at 11:46 AM
The interplay between Walt and his barber was pure deliciousness, as eventually was that between him and Sue, the “Dragon Lady” bit being especially important. I understand what Ed was talking about in calling him a bigot, which could only slightly be called correct. His primary concern with his neighbor’s ethnicity seemed to focus on three points:
1. The houses in which they lived were not well maintained. While this may cause him to make a connection between this state and their race, it seemed to be a standard throughout the neighborhood, and therefore not unreasonable. However, his response was to take an opportunity to keep his own home in good condition, and eventually, to take it upon himself to improve the rest.
2. Their ceremonies, which initially he saw as a reason to call them “barbarians”. In this you could say he was bigoted, however that was an opinion he kept to himself. When invited into their world, he reluctantly embraced it, especially once he got a whiff of the food. A true bigot would never have considered taking part. Even when they were leaving gifts on his stoop, he showed a small amount of gratitude even though he asked them to stop.
3. The gang was ethnic in that neighborhood. However, he was not bigoted in this respect, because he held just as much contempt for the black gang, and for the wigger faux gangbanger that Sue apparently was on a date with. While he would probably attribute individual attitudes to the ethnicity, his problem was with the groups of individuals perpetrating crimes, not with the races themselves.
By the way, I’m really, really f’ing disturbed by the people in this nation who have no problem seeing their own species, humans, get slaughtered on screen, but recoil in horror at a dog getting killed. All of you who feel like that, would you really feel more pain over your dog being killed then a member of your family, or a friend?
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Of course not. We’re talking about a movie. What did I miss?
kooziegirl on January 17, 2009 at 11:58 AM
I want to disagree with you Ed.
how can anyone who treats all races with the same disdain be a bigot? Kowalski uses racist epithets with his best friends. the Italian barber the Irish construction supervisor etc. I do agree its more of a bad habit of which i could see his poor wife trying to calm him using throughout their marriage. he reminded me a lot of my own father LOL. who had no malice for anyone but was similarly salty. so maybe I’m a bit biased by seeing some one so close to me portrayed on screen. hee hee.
Walt is a good man who is of course misguided but affected by the goodness around him, and in the end showed the most Christian message. no greater gift can one give than to lay his life down for his friends. (paraphrasing)
I liked this movie and will buy it when its on dvd.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on January 17, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Good movie. Not quite as good as Iwo Jima, Million Dollar Baby or Mystic River, but solid. Eastwood still gets it done.
therightwinger on January 17, 2009 at 12:14 PM
I’m skipping all the spoilers, but I just wanted to point out how awesome it is that the screenwriter’s biggest previous credit was Let’s Bowl. I really liked that show.
Jim Treacher on January 17, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Ditto. I haven’t seem the movie by my dad was the same way you describe your dad.
Cindy Munford on January 17, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Oh please. People get all torn up over a dog dying because for the most part dogs love their people unconditionally. In films the protagonist’s dog is always portrayed as innocent, so it’s natural that the audience will project their own feelings about a pet onto the dog that dies in the film.
This does not mean the same people aren’t affected by the real slaughter of human beings. I wept for days watching the aftermath of 9/11 and still can’t watch footage of it without tears welling up. And absolutely no one I knew personally was involved.
I avoid films where dogs are killed but I also avoid films where people die excruciating deaths from cancer. Too close to home.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Sounds like he’s a misanthropist, not a bigot.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Sounds like he’s a
misanthropistmisanthrope, not a bigot.Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 12:25 PM
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 12:26 PM
well dadgum…. that was way more succinct than I put it! hee hee, thanks fer the pithy-ness Disturb!
Wasteland (long winded) Man.
WastelandMan on January 17, 2009 at 12:28 PM
I saw it last weekend and it is awesome. of course it won’t win any Oscars those will be reserved for Sean Penn and movies like Milk. The commies won’t let Clinton win anything. The Wrestler is supposed to be good but Andy R. can kiss his Oscar away to after defending Bush.
lavell12 on January 17, 2009 at 12:29 PM
WastelandMan on January 17, 2009 at 12:28 PM
No problem.
By the way, good screen name. Makes me think of my favorite poet, TS Eliot.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Exactly!
Cindy Munford on January 17, 2009 at 12:48 PM
So Ed, this is a good movie because it has a Christian message of redemption? Please. I want Clint Eastwood to kick ass and kill bad guys – without redemption. You just saved me 10 bucks.
keep the change on January 17, 2009 at 12:49 PM
So if people die of cancer, you can’t watch. If they get ripped apart by bullets, well that’s just dandy.
Again, the reaction to dogs getting killed being horror and the reaction to people getting killed being indifference is a sad, sad thing.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Take a chance. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. $10? It runs me about $13.50 after I buy the bucket of popcorn :-)
Ordinary1 on January 17, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Ya know?
not to start up the conservative movie thread again but this movie also reminds me of “Sling Blade” which could be similarly seen as conservative and with the same message.
I just think we may have left that one out of the list.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on January 17, 2009 at 12:57 PM
You are disturbed, indeed. My species? Please. When dogs fly planes into buildings, or torture other dogs for fun, or try to convert our world into some hell hole, or a myriad of other sins unique only to my species, I will take a second look at humans. Humans suffer, but they also cause suffering.
Animals are innocent and have no free will. That is why people recoil at animals be harmed. Ditto children. They are totally at our mercy. he same thing can not be said for mankind.
keep the change on January 17, 2009 at 12:58 PM
I appear to be surrounded by PETA members. Animals kill each other and us on a regular basis. They kill each other for food, for mates, for territory, and for a plethora of other reasons. I get the feeling some here have never seen an animal not in a household or a zoo.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:04 PM
Personally, I’m tired of the atheist vs.religious threads, as if that’s our only distinction. I’m a proud misanthrope. Can’t really imagine any other way to be these days and stay sane. But as such, I sure don’t go to the movies.
JiangxiDad on January 17, 2009 at 1:04 PM
It’s not indifference. I am horrorified by real people being killed by real bullets. In film it depends on the context. If it is the over-the-top cartoon violence that appears in most films, I am not overly affected. Probably because the lousy film makers have failed to make the characters seem human. However, in films like Saving Private Ryan or Black Hawk Down, I am very moved.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:06 PM
Me, too. Yet, I always get suckered in.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Political correction might explore complicated redemption scenarios, where as, I saw it as a solution that ties up loose ends. Clint realizes violence won’t work this time, in fact it causes more violence–extreme in the case of Sue and he caused it. All the while only one thing haunts Clint, his shootings of “gook” prisoners in Korea. Here lies redemption for him. He can get closure for those horrible deeds with his life, while preventing the kid having such a stain on his. The shooters have to be Asian. The final scene with him on the ground says it all.
There is no hate or bigotry in his character. That is something we moderns superimpose on him by our current standards. Clint lets us know we don’t get it, lathered us in our righteousness.
patrick neid on January 17, 2009 at 1:08 PM
You are surrounded by normal people. Normal people who don’t equate dogs with criminals, gangbangers, terrorists, and other people who get shot up in action films. My cat, who is afraid of her own shadow, is highly offended by your moral equivalence argument.
keep the change on January 17, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Ex-PETA member here! In my youth I joined but dropped them like a hot potato when I realized how insane they are.
I believe one can harbor a special fondness for dogs and still care about humanity.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:13 PM
…yes, because only bad guys get killed, or beaten, or raped in movies. Innocent people rarely are, and people always avoid movies where violence occurs to them. And when the same happens to a dog or pet, people don’t recoil in magnified horror.
Are you high? Innocent people are killed in movies and television by the boatload. How many policemen have we seen wiped out in movies, or soldiers? How many innocent bystanders? I’m flabbergasted at the denial here. The only explanation I can come up with is that those making your argument have seen maybe 20 movies throughout their lives, or nothing rated higher than PG.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:17 PM
We agree, I think. As to your point about redemption, that’s interesting, but as you note has nothing to do with his supposed bigotry. In his past, he shoots a kid who is trying to surrender. Granted, that bothers him, but, again as you note, what’s interesting about that is that he tries to prevent Tau from killing. I don’t know if that qualifies as redemption (I obviously lean to ‘no’), but it certainly qualifies as imparting wisdom and trying to help the kid have best life possible.
You, apparently, keep interesting pets. Walt’s dog doesn’t terrorize, kill, or eat anyone in this movie.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:19 PM
Replace the dog with a pit bull or doberman and let’s see how people’s attitudes change.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Policeman and soldiers are not “innocent”. They are armed combatants. They have volunteered to serve and fight crime or whomever the bad guys happen to be. They know what they are doing. They are sentient entities aware of what is happening. How can you compare them to animals? Dogs and other animals are just there, existing, at the mercy of anyone who wishes to harm them.
keep the change on January 17, 2009 at 1:23 PM
I have a pit bull. She is sweet and playful. She is my second pit bull; the other died. She was sweet, too. Never harmed anyone.
Pit bulls get a bad rap, because many bad people own them and raise them to be vicious.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:25 PM
At which point you are making a different argument. As has been explained upthread, people do not like to see suffering of those who are seen as unable to protect themselves. Dogs, children, elderly fall in this category.
But it is part of the American identity that man is self-reliant (see either Thoreau or Emerson or Jefferson etc). The death of a policeman or a soldier is seen as a sacrifice in service – assuming knowledge of risk. Animals in movies (and life) are not cognizant of that risk – therefore it is fitting that man be protective of him and naturally recoil at his suffering.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:26 PM
There is nothing wrong in my opinion of saying the GD word as long as its not directed at America!! Ask the b.Hussein
obama.
I prefer the “f” word when ticked off myself.
I’ll be renting this movie when available.
gary on January 17, 2009 at 1:27 PM
I am flabbergasted at your inability to process what everyone else is saying. I think you just don’t like dogs.
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:28 PM
You’re absolutely right. Dogs are mindless creatures with no rules that never attack or bite or protect or defend or anything. They have no brains, no thoughts, and are just there to make calendars out of. Awwww they’re so cute. I love my toy-I mean pet.
What the hell happened to common sense?
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:28 PM
In a stroke of irony, your’s is the PETA argument.
Your argument denies the superiority of power and position that man has over the rest of the animal kingdom. Where it true that man and beast were on the same playing field, your argument/concern might have merit. As it is, we are not, and your argument does not.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Ed,
in re “Eastwood gives us an interesting portrait of a man from a different age unable to adjust to his changing environment”…
Dignity demands it, imo.
warbaby on January 17, 2009 at 1:31 PM
Ugh. Where = Were. Pardon the typo.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Unable to protect themselves?
I’m just scratching my head at this.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:32 PM
I seen this last weekend and it was excellent.
jdsmith0021 on January 17, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Gun vs. Teeth. Which would you bet on?
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Are you a mailman?
Disturb the Universe on January 17, 2009 at 1:35 PM
From my link above, I’ll pose this idea.
Person walking down the street. Unleashed dog in someone’s yard takes exception to said person and attacks them. Unless said person has a knife or gun, tell me about the superiority during that attack. I’m not talking about the aftermath where Animal Control is called in. I’m talking about that crucial moment where serious injury, disfigurement, or even death can occur. Considering I’ve had multiple relatives attacked by dogs, domesticated ones, I’ll be interested to hear this.
MadisonConservative on January 17, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Right, so what you are doing is taken anecdotal evidence of behavior by dogs and extrapolating that to mean that those at the top of the food chain cannot have compassion on those below. That’s fine, if you choose to do so, but it is not irrational for people to have a natural compassion on and for animals.
If a dog bites someone, even our law recognizes the responsibility that the owner has. Why? Because the dog is almost universally accepted as a lower form of being.
Spirit of 1776 on January 17, 2009 at 1:41 PM
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